KP - England career over

First topic message reminder :

"@bbctms: Reports suggesting Kevin Pietersen will NOT be selected for West Indies tour and World T20. Expecting ECB statement shortly #bbccricket

http://www.ecb.co.uk/news/articles/statement-kevin-pietersen

As that statement underlines, his career with England is done.

Discuss away, I'm sure this will be a hot topic...

 

Kevin Pietersen is not the first 'adopted' cricketer to be used and thrown by England. Hope not another Eoin Morgan will not dream playing test cricket for them at 14. No, not ever again.

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:If that is correct, it would appear to weaken Giles' chances of landing the top job given his public backing of Pietersen when the initial squad was annonced.

It would also go a long way to proving that the ructions between the England Management and KP weren't all due to the fact that Flower didn't like him.

I don't recall Flower being around when KP was busy upsetting his predecessor. But of course everyone else is a fool / or incompetent / or weak, only KP is a proper man   

msp83 wrote:Kevin Pietersen is not the first 'adopted' cricketer to be used and thrown by England. Hope not another Eoin Morgan will not dream playing test cricket for them at 14. No, not ever again.

So what he's not the first adopted cricketer who's been dropped by England? There's been plenty of English ones who've had the same done to them, some after one test. Ridiculous insinuation.

When Robin Smith was dropped in 1996 at the age of 33, he had the best average among his contemporary England players.

Sangakkara wrote:I was an advocate for dropping Pietersen during the Ashes tour, on form grounds, notably for repeated  poor shot selections at crucial moments. But this has appalled me today.

If a player cannot be managed then the fault lies with the talents of the manager. And I'm guessing in this instance, "the manager" is Cook.

In my line of work, if I can't manage a member of my staff, I can't just get rid of them. Particularly if they are my most talented member of staff! If I can't manage a member of my staff then it reflects badly on me. So why is it not the same case here?

Pietersen is the true mercurial talent. And that talent needs to be harnessed, not thrown by the wayside - particularly at times like this. If Cook cannot do this, then Cook should stand aside as captain. This is cowardly. It is pathetic. And as someone mentioned above, is cutting off out nose to spite our face.

I too manage a team and like the fact they are all different and they are of course they are treated as individuals. However, they behave as a team and they have unstinting loyalty to each other - and it's great to see

KP doesn't have this. Why would you put up with someone in your team, who demands to be treated differently to the others (no regards to how he bats for instance) but doesn't produce the results? - his record in the last 18 months is ordinary

It's actually a dereliction of duty, not to have a word with such a maverick, which they did two years ago when he was busy undermining Strauss. He then comes back an plays 'ordinary' - but still won't conform or show the team effort needed

And if you had such a member, with that weight of evidence, you'd insist on keeping them?

Also, if you do the popular thing and get rid of Cook (strange how he's now the devils son) who is going to be 'big' enough to control KP, who has clearly shown in the last 5 years that he is uncontrollable. Broad? Anderson? Bell? Ask Michael Vaughan to get his whites back on?

msp83 wrote:When Robin Smith was dropped in 1996 at the age of 33, he had the best average among his contemporary England players.

And that's your proof? What a conspiracy theory!!

We'll leave you too it. Anyone who mentions Gower in the early 90's or Hoggard in 2008, is just been mischievous   

Why not fire Cook first? He scored far fewer runs and was an utterly ineffective captain.

I offered no theories or proof. There was an opinion/interpretation grounded in facts, and the comment on Smith is a fact. Hope it is as clear as the ECB statement which should be the standard that we should aspire to when it comes to clarity and transparency!.

Perhaps the move was done to remove Pietersen as an England player so that he can be considered for the England Team Director Role!

Aren't Broad and Pietersen buddies? Why not make Broad skipper for the test side for this season and see how Pietersen plays under him? Can keep Cook then as a batsman too. At least Broad has some fire in him and a good bowler.

Regulars will be aware I have posted previously as to Pietersen's commitment and professionalism when with Surrey. Alec Stewart, the Club's Director of Cricket, commented tonight -
''In my opinion, he is one of England's greatest ever batsmen.
He'll be very welcome to come and play here at the Kia Oval for Surrey. Every time he has pulled on a Surrey shirt he's been a model professional, he's been very popular in the dressing room and most importantly he has gone out in the middle and performed.
I'd like to think we'll see him in a Surrey shirt and am very disappointed I won't see him in an England shirt again.''

I'll leave it at that for tonight other than to say that no one involved comes out of this well. A dreadful shame.

Who is laughing at my previous post now!!


Totally correct. Flower two weeks ago said he wanted to stay and rebuild. Met Downton, and low and behold. Both have gone.

Einstien was not needed.

KP should have gone after the Strauss controversy.

We all know who Swann was talking about now, do we not  

Just to refresh, from Swann "some have an ego so far up their ass, they could see the sun shine"   

guildfordbat wrote:If that is correct, it would appear to weaken Giles' chances of landing the top job given his public backing of Pietersen when the initial squad was annonced.

On the contrary i feel. by agreeing with them, it has sadly strenghtened his claim.

There is surely more to this than we know so far (which isn't saying much, given how little we know). Tempers seem to be running high, and some people are making some quite outlandish comments without knowing the full picture.

The statement from the ECB does seem opaque. I am not convinced by the argument "the fans deserve to know the full story" though - rather that places the fan uncomfortably close to the customer who has "rights" for my liking... Presumably the people involved know the "full story", which is the only important thing really.

Therefore without any attempt at completeness, I just wish to make a few remarks, some of which are hypothetical:
- It is IMO oversimplistic to simply state that failure to manage implies failure of the manager. Some people can be simply unmanageable. In this context I would note:
- KP has fallen out with managements at Natal, Notts, Hampshire, with Moores, Strauss, Flower and apparently now Cook;
- I would consider 2 of those people involved as amongst the finest man-managers to have ever been involved in English cricket;
- on the flip side, Vaughan seemed to manage him ok, and he has by all accounts been nothing short of the perfect pro at Surrey, so it is possible;
- both of those however happened over relatively short periods of time (1 year so far at Surrey, Vaughan only skippered him for a handful of series). Perhaps after a while he becomes more hastle than he's worth?
- undoubtedly and whatever his recent form, KP on purely sporting aspects walks into this England side (and possibly most England sides in history);
- the opposition would undoubtedly rather face a side without KP than one with KP in it;
- cricket, whilst at its heart being a battle of individuals, remains a team sport, and from experience I can tell you the team environment does matter at that level.

I commented at or towards the end of the ashes, that in my opinion based on the information we had the best way to manage KP would be to give him more responsibility, bat him at 3, involve him as a senior player and play on his ego in a positive way. I also commented that I thought it entirely reasonable of the England management to demand he play a substantial chunk of the early county season, even if it meant missing an equally substantial chunk of the IPL (and before you ask, this would have been a requirement for all England players wishing to be considered in the test side, including Bell).

Given that a priori we have no idea of the content of the conversation between Downton and KP, and more generally are not aware of all of the details surrounding the England team (thank goodness), I don't believe we are as yet in any position to either criticise or endorse this move totally.

The only thing I would say is that I find it strange that this decision seems to have been taken before a new coach has been chosen. If I were the next coach I'd feel a bit peeved.

Looking onto the future, who bats in KP's place now? Does Morgan earn another shot (he played very well in the ODIs)? Or Taylor? Vince maybe (I am a fan - he seems to have a bit about him)?

guildfordbat wrote:

Hoggy_Bear wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:If that is correct, it would appear to weaken Giles' chances of landing the top job given his public backing of Pietersen when the initial squad was annonced.

It would also go a long way to proving that the ructions between the England Management and KP weren't all due to the fact that Flower didn't like him.

Yes - or that Flower has cast his evil spell on others (sorry, been reading too many KP_f posts!   )

   

Both wanted to stay, neither could. very black and white to me.

Not long ago from Giles " KP, best player in the world" Then unanimous from Giles, Downton and Whitaker that "KP would not be part of their plans"

Get real.

Cricket politics just like National politics, SUCK!

The England Cricket team after winning the summer Ashes goes into complete meltdown and self destruct mode.  Complete farce.  Right that's me done with English cricket.  Any suggestions as to who else to support?

Nore Staat wrote:The England Cricket team after winning the summer Ashes goes into complete meltdown and self destruct mode.  Complete farce.  Right that's me done with English cricket.  Any suggestions as to who else to support?

Outer Mongolia. Or Andy Murray.   

Mike's point on the new coach not getting a chance with KP really makes me think it'll be Giles because surely, surely England would at least give a completely new coach a chance to manage KP for the summer, it'd be utterly ridiculous if this wasn't the case.

I'm unsure what to think of KP, because by some accounts he's an @rse, yet by some he is not. It seems to me that if KP holds you in high regard and respects you (as a person/cricketer) he'll play for you/go through brick walls for you. If he doesn't then it can be a whole different story (the James Taylor case comes to mind here, batting with a child Headingley innings)

If it's a problem with Cook, then why not let him continue to play T20's? Unless players like Broad and co have also spoken against him

After this, Giles is 100% the new coach.

I think most of the other players have said enough about KP surely.

They want him NO where near ANY of the formats.

Don't think it does mean Giles is the new coach, after all he is reported to be a massive fan of his and said something like "He(KP) is worth a million dollars to a side" or something to that extent.

Anyway, Moeen for England!

Giles has just done a 360 as regards to KP in order to get the job.

Should he be in charge of England with ethics such as this ?

Mat wrote:Don't think it does mean Giles is the new coach, after all he is reported to be a massive fan of his and said something like "He(KP) is worth a million dollars to a side" or something to that extent.

Anyway, Moeen for England!

But the ECB said the England management, which includes limited-overs coach Ashley Giles, Downton and national selector James Whitaker, agreed "unanimously" that Pietersen would not be part of their plans for those trips or beyond.

But that is the point. He is now agreeing with Downton and Whitaker. In order to suck up and get the job.


Do you think he would agree to this unless given the wink?

How many of the team have come out and backed KP up recently or in the past?

Good fortune in the IPL Kev.  

Sorry really England management has gone doldrums , how pathetic to drop a star like KP for 1 disastrous tour, I am not gonna support English team any more for such an ill treatment to a star like KP.

The Giles situation can be looked at 2 ways. Either Giles would have stuck to his gun, and the larger ECB management, having made up their mind that he won't be the man beyond the World T-20, decided to overlook his views. Otherwise, Giles would have thought that he wouldn't want to risk his chances by holding out for KP. Like Skyeman, I feel it could be more of the latter.

invisiblecoolers wrote:Sorry really England management has gone doldrums , how pathetic to drop a star like KP for 1 disastrous tour, I am not gonna support English team any more for such an ill treatment to a star like KP.

Its not though. The problems with him date back years, whether its refusing to commit to some tours , demanding greater release, his inability to get on with coaches, or just plain upsetting his teammates and captains...this goes back a long way.
The people involved in this decision werent at the top when some of the problems occurred. Giles is a former teammate. Its not just an issue of a couple of people at the top deciding to scapegoat him or it only having been Flower who was the problem.

Its not a decision I wanted to see, Ive been a great KP apologist over the years. But its pretty evident that his personality has been a major factor in problems not just in this tour but around the set up in general. Id imagine his continued desire to pick and choose his tours despite being "committed" was another factor, not to mention his dodgy knees.

Mike Selig wrote:

The only thing I would say is that I find it strange that this decision seems to have been taken before a new coach has been chosen. If I were the next coach I'd feel a bit peeved.

Looking onto the future, who bats in KP's place now? Does Morgan earn another shot (he played very well in the ODIs)? Or Taylor? Vince maybe (I am a fan - he seems to have a bit about him)?

Thats one thing I did find a bit odd...but I guess the problem is they needed to name their squads for the next tours now, before a decision is made on the full job. They havent actually closed the door on his return altogether (although they have made it practically impossible), if they do appoint Shane Warne of KP Fan expect to see him ads captain for the next ashes   
I assume hes pushed for clarity too, as he has to make a choice with committing to a full IPL contract or not. Now he knows.

invisiblecoolers wrote:Sorry really England management has gone doldrums , how pathetic to drop a star like KP for 1 disastrous tour, I am not gonna support English team any more for such an ill treatment to a star like KP.

And herein lies the problem with Kevin Pietersen. He thinks of himself as a star and behaves like a diva.

He has ceased to be an effective cricketer and now seems to think that just being Kevin Pietersen is enough to entitle him to an automatic place in whatever team he wants to be a part of. Batting and fielding for the team is not a consideration worthy of his attention any more.

This is a shame, because we have seen enough of how well he can play and if only he had given of his very best for England at all times, we could be talking of him as one of the greats, rather than the bitter, twisted individual whose disruptive behaviour over the last couple of years has been nothing but damaging to English cricket.

The probability is that nothing and nobody would be able to handle him. The intense media attention that is prevalent in international cricket gives his ego too much opportunity to run riot in the most public of ways, and that cannot be a good thing.

Sadly then, he has to go. I wish it was not so. I wish he was putting opposition bowlers to the sword on a regular basis for England. But that doesn't seem to be likely in the future. Rather, it's probable that there would simply be more of the same. And we don't want....... can't have..... that.

We should thank Kevin Pietersen for what he did well when playing for England. We shouldn't forget the good times. But sooner or later the ECB had to say enough. That time has been long overdue and the only shame is that it has taken until now for them to come to the right decision.

I seem to recall that KP was England's top scorer in the winter Ashes.   But I suppose it must have been his fault for the series loss.  I suppose when England were winning other series it must have been despite of KP.

So we have Trott whose confidence has completely deserted him to the point of affecting his mental health and who may now be permanently burnt out at this level.  We have Swann who retired mid series and bowling not very well.  There is Prior who seems completely out of form, Root, Cook, Finn, Panesar ... all terribly out of form.

msp83 wrote:When Robin Smith was dropped in 1996 at the age of 33, he had the best average among his contemporary England players.

Can you please clarify what you are suggesting by this?

Beggars belief ...How can it be a management problem when everybody else tows the line..

The guy is an egotistical pain and they have finally had enough...Bad attitude is his responsibility no one elses

Sangakkara wrote:

If a player cannot be managed then the fault lies with the talents of the manager. And I'm guessing in this instance, "the manager" is Cook.

In my line of work, if I can't manage a member of my staff, I can't just get rid of them. Particularly if they are my most talented member of staff! If I can't manage a member of my staff then it reflects badly on me. So why is it not the same case here?

Sir Alex Ferguson one of the greatest managers in Football history, on more than one occassion he got rid of a star player because he beleived the players attitude was not correct and was affecting the team.  Are you saying he was not a good manager?

Your line of work sounds a great place to work.  No matter how many times an employee breaks company rules or upsets colleagues he/she can't be got rid of.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Beggars belief ...How can it be a management problem when everybody else tows the line..

The guy is an egotistical pain and they have finally had enough...Bad attitude is his responsibility no one elses

It does seem bizarre (although I guess not unexpected) that so many people are defending KP and having ago at the ECB et al. When I am guessing that nobody on here or infact 99% of the people commenting about it today have any idea what has (or indeed not) happened between KP and the rest of the team.

Its a little different in club soccer mind, Giles cant go out and buy Amla to replace him.

Towing the line is doing them wonders isn't it?

In all seriousness, I would tend to agree - but the line they are towing is damaging to success. They are becoming inhibited cowards, frightened to show any flair or take any risks. Sport is not about taking the safe option. And as this winter has proven, taking the safe option can get you an absolute hiding.

There isn't even an alternative to KP. It's not like there is a young superstar banging the door down for a chance. It's all... "Maybe him... Or he could potentially do a job"

People are banging on about the importance of senior players. Well we've already lost Trott and Swann - why the hell are we throwing another one away? With no suitable replacement?

It's madness!

It's like Liverpool selling Luis Suarez with a shrug of the shoulders, saying "someone will come along eventually". Ludicrous.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Its a little different in club soccer mind, Giles cant go out and buy Amla to replace him.

True, but the principal is still the same. My point is that just because a player can not be managed does not automatically make the manager a bad leader.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Its a little different in club soccer mind, Giles cant go out and buy Amla to replace him.

Surrey did and we still got relegated!   

So because a guy is a top player he can upset the team and do what he likes.

Team comes first

Boycott. "You can be an individual within the team but you cannot just be an individual. He has said this is how I play take it or leave it, well they've taken it for long enough and now they've said thank you very much, we will leave it."


Shame for KP and fans but i like the bottle of Downton. An interesting first week in charge!

guildfordbat wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Its a little different in club soccer mind, Giles cant go out and buy Amla to replace him.

Surrey did and we still got relegated!   

Haha ok worst example ever!

Still England have lumb as a replacement so what's the problem   


It's time some of the kids like bairstow started repaying the faith that a been put in them. There's still serious talk that kp is by no means the last and prior will follow him come central contract time:

Kevin Pietersen will go down in the annuls of English cricket as one of the all-time greats - no question about that.

The recriminations here and the damage done to both parties involved is lamentable and avoidable if the whole truth had come out so the whole affair has been poorly managed.

I would say though that it is not a ground-breaking, earth-shattering decision as far as the England side goes in the long term. Pietersen's form has not been great for a year and he is now 33 so how long would he have left in his England career in any case? A year or two and if in his past year's form is that of any great benefit to the team. I say not and if he was disruptive in the dressing room then that cancer has also been removed.

I will re-iterate though that he goes down as one of the greatest batsmen to play for England in their long history.

Looking forward to a few books over the next several years  

Love him or hate him, what an entertainer KP is.

The one thing I'd like to emphasise about this whole affair is that it's not just one man who has made this decision or has found KP difficult to work with. If Flower, Cook, Giles Whittaker and Downton have all agreed that KP is a disruptive influence who England would be better off without, moving forward, surely there must be something more to this decision than simply personal dislike or a failure to manage him properly.
Given KPs history, is it really implausible that it is KP at fault here?

Even Cook who made it very clear that he wanted KP back in the team after the Strauss controversy appears to have had enough.

And although a few have gone, i can see the team being more harmonious. Which can only be a good thing.