Rowntree saint or sinner?

England scrums are mediocre to put it mildly and have been for a while. Against France first Cole was pinged for collapsing then Mako was embarrassing the amount of times he went flat on his face. Overall the England scrums were a mess for most of the time. Who is not doing their job properly? Is it the players or Graham Rowntree? I was a Prop and know the importance of getting perfect body position and binding before engagement. Without it you are on the back foot immediately. England front row players never seem to get this bit nailed. They look almost amateurish at it. In my view it is simply NOT acceptable. It's no good Rowntree huffing and puffing after the game is lost he should make sure they all know what they're doing before the first whistle. If they do and they don't do it then Rowntree should look for players that will. Rowntree should be taking a lot of blame for poor scrums either way. I hope SL has made it abundantly clear that any further embarrassing displays and Rowntree should look for another job.

Alex Corbisiero aside, I don't think England has great scrummagers. Dan Cole has been out of form for quite a while, certainly since the Lions tour. He has looked badly out of sorts for Tigers. Dylan Hartley scrummaging has always been considered his weakness and his tendancy to 'pop up' first in a scrum is well documented. Mako is an average at best scrummager, fantastic in the loose but not all that come scrum time.

Really without Corbisiero there, I think England's scrum could be construed as a weakness. Corbisiero is that good a scrummager that him being or not being there is the difference between a dominant scrum and a scrum going backwards.

You seem to be saying its the players fault. That they simply aren't good enough. If that's the case then why are they being selected? I will not believe that somewhere in England there aren't better players. Rowntree persisting with sub par players is a fault in its own right. My view is more that they are not being coached the technicalities in enough detail. They are just not technically correct. This must fall on Rowntree s shoulders. Does he really have the capability to coach at the highest level?

englandglory4ever wrote:You seem to be saying its the players fault. That they simply aren't good enough. If that's the case then why are they being selected? I will not believe that somewhere in England there aren't better players. Rowntree persisting with sub par players is a fault in its own right. My view is more that they are not being coached the technicalities in enough detail. They are just not technically correct. This must fall on Rowntree s shoulders. Does he really have the capability to coach at the highest level?

Perhaps its a combination of the two and Rowntree isn't all that.  However, at tighthead I would wager that maybe England don't have the players right now.  With Wilson injured who are your alternatives at tighthead after Dan Cole?  Guys with little to no international experience is who.

For me the biggest failure in the props over the last few years is the project poster boy Doran Jones. Is he even still alive? A lot of time and effort was invested in him as the future.

England dont slect their front row on scrummaging ability anymore. Its a big shift in attude but something all the critics were constantly telling them they had to move with the times on.

No more Bells, Flatmans, Whites or Mr Blobby ... no you need a highly mobile modern pack.

The minute they get one the French pick the biggest ugliest bunch of bullfrogs they can find and gain a small advantage. Cest la vie.
They hardly got crunched to the degree suggested though. There was not a string of penalties given away or the sort of mayhem we saw against Wales last year (referee) or the sort of crushing weve seen England packs impose on Aus and Ireland in recent years. Nor did England struggle against the heavyweight Argentinian pack.
They arent great scrummagers but they arent terrible either.


IMO The lineout has been a bigger problem for England. Not only have they struggled to retain their own ball ( partly due to Youngs throwing) for quite some time but they really dont threaten the oppositions that often. Lawes helps but hes no Croft when it comes to disrupting the opposition. Wood used to be a great option ion that area but seems to have faded off, Id like to see England look to utilise him as a third option and in attacking the oppositions lineout more. This assuming Croft is dead.

Dont worry...Scott Wilson and Keiron Brookes are on their way...problem solved....

I think its difficult to judge props at the moment with all the rule changes. I don't think the refs themselves know what's right or wrong. Lots of props on the weekend being pinged when they seemed to be in the ascendency - it's even baffling a seasoned analyst like me 

Rowntree is forwards coach not just the scrum coach so you have to really consider all aspects of the forwards. Personally I think we've got a blooming good set at the moment that are still comparitively young and hopefully going to get better.

Apart from T Youngs appalling throwing the lineout functioned pretty well. They nicked at least 2of the French throws. You can guarantee Youngs will fail when he comes on. So the scrum did ok against other teams like Argentina so why did they look poor against France?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Rowntree is forwards coach not just the scrum coach so you have to really consider all aspects of the forwards. Personally I think we've got a blooming good set at the moment that are still comparitively young and hopefully going to get better.

Maybe he's just not giving scrums enough attention then? Still Rowntree I'm afraid.

The issue with Vunipola is that he doesn't want to scrum.  But the rest of his game makes up for this.  The days where you could pick props just for their scrum work - Chilcott, Probyn, Smart, etc has long gone.  If you don't have naturally good scrumaggers then part of the game plan has to be to minimise scrums.

Some people have criticised Cole mercilesly after the French game because he lost his footing and went down once.  Anyone can slip no matter how good you are, it happens.  Plus the French had in my opinion 2 of the 3 best technical props in the world playing, with a pretty big back 5 behind them as well.  So I thought the efforts by Marler, who isn't a great technical scrummager and Cole, who is adequate was pretty good.

Between them the work outside the scrum was massively more impressive than that done by their opposit numbers, which for me is the best we can do without Corbisiero who is a bit of a freak in that he can scrum and play rugby.

nlpnlp wrote:

Some people have criticised Cole mercilesly after the French game because he lost his footing and went down once.  Anyone can slip no matter how good you are, it happens.  

Have to be honest....I've been hearing these excuses for Cole for months now. He slipped, the ref made the wrong call, the opposition prop was boring in etc etc.

At some point the penny has to drop that Cole is being gotten the better of come scrum time.

Marler, Mako, Hartley, Cole, Webber, Corbs, Wilson, ((TY*))

Come on... that's a pretty decent bunch, deeper than most (all?) sides. The FR is generally not our problem area.

*Yes, I know, I was joshing you with TY.


It didn't help that ickle Tom looked like a toddler hanging between 2 giants when he came on.

The thing is aswell..that Marler and Vunipola are still very young for props...and Cole is only 26/27. Most props arent hitting the heights till after that.
I think we've seen big improvements in Marlers scrummaging this season...maybe down to Quins scrummaging coach aswell.

France have a poweful front row as mentioned above...I thought England were fine. Plus...the scrum isnt ONLY down to the front row...its whats behind aswell...and France had some big ole boys in that pack.

And lets not forget...England shouldnt have lost that game!

So despite England's fowards rightly hailed over recent games he should be asked to leave as we didn't dominate the French scrum?

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Rowntree is forwards coach not just the scrum coach so you have to really consider all aspects of the forwards. Personally I think we've got a blooming good set at the moment that are still comparitively young and hopefully going to get better.

Maybe he's just not giving scrums enough attention then? Still Rowntree I'm afraid.

Did you see how bad Marler and Vunipola before they spent time in the senior squad?



With Cole hes suffered under the new scrum laws, as have many including the likes of Adam Jones (different reasons). Whether or not Cole can adapt is yet to be seen, but he does have access to excellent coaching at both club and national level. It wont happen for him overnight though, you cant expect Rowntree to wave a wand.
It still doenst make him a bad player, just not the force he was.

Lawes also isnt renowned for being much use in the scrum in the way someone like Shaw was, or the ludicrous freaks France have found. But then he does help balance out Englands lineout. So until Matfield chooses to complete a 3 year residency and get IRB qualification rules changed we have to make do.

Maybe it's just that the idea of total dominance in scrums is now for lower tier teams and expecting absolute superiority at the highest end of the IRB rankings is probably wishful thinking?

Ireland will now prove me completely wrong when they meet England!!!... but...do you get my point?

England will be hard pressed to have the kind of gigantic dominance they once enjoyed there in ye old days of Martin Johnson.  And if their game is being slowly managed to exert that dominance or to use that kind of dominance for penalties and drop kicks............. hmmm, then perhaps Lancaster actually is barking down the wrong gameplan.

I think the general consensus is that Dan Cole needs a break but neither England or Leicester are in a position to do that.

The lack of talented English young tight heads is worrying. Geordiefalcon I know you mention two of your players but both are unproven.

Why did Kieron Brookes not work out at Tigers?

nlpnlp Mako scrummaged well against Toulouse in the latest HC match.

It comes down to the years of wasted players from Andy Robinson to Martin Johnson's reigns.

A "young" tighthead is probably Dan Cole. Don't quote me on this but most tightheads playing at the top level are probably around 28-31 at a guess, as it is just a position where players mature later, and go on relatively later than other positions.

We don't have international class tightheads at that age. Brookes, Wilson, Thomas etc are babies in tighthead terms. David Wilson (28) has been about for years, its only in the last year or so he's been seen as a possible international starter

Most TH have a problem with Domingo, he is only 1.73m tall about 5' 8", Cole is what 6'3" and therefore bending downwards when engaging. I am not a front row expert, but the dynamics of that give a massive advantage to the smaller man as long as he knows how to scrummage and Domingo does.

Jeff Probyn exploited a similar advantage in much the same way as TD does now.

beshocked wrote:I think the general consensus is that Dan Cole needs a break but neither England or Leicester are in a position to do that.

The lack of talented English young tight heads is worrying.  Geordiefalcon I know you mention two of your players but both are unproven.

Why did Kieron Brookes not work out at Tigers?

nlpnlp Mako scrummaged well against Toulouse in the latest HC match.

Very true mate they are young and inexperienced...but i still think even now they would they would be a strong back up if need be, if Cole and Davy Wilson were both out...im that confident of them.

I think it was just one of those at Tigers. He had a couple of big injuries, and a known fondness for Nandos...and the two didnt compliment each other.

However he's back and Dean and Mr Wells have fixed him. Its an interesting debate between falcon fans who they think will be the better...Brookes or Wilson...and its probably about 50-50. Personally i think Brookes is ahead at the moment...but i think Wilson can take it to another level.

What about the likes of Collier? Is he in Brookes area of inexperienced rookie...or would he be in the equation if fit?

Which other senior props are there? Doran Jones has not made the grade.

Any new lads at Saints?

I think Rowntree is a great Scrummaging coach. I didn't think the England scrum went that badly against the French.

Englands biggest issue is if they lose Dan Cole. There is no one in reserve.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:I think the general consensus is that Dan Cole needs a break but neither England or Leicester are in a position to do that.

The lack of talented English young tight heads is worrying.  Geordiefalcon I know you mention two of your players but both are unproven.

Why did Kieron Brookes not work out at Tigers?

nlpnlp Mako scrummaged well against Toulouse in the latest HC match.

Very true mate they are young and inexperienced...but i still think even now they would they would be a strong back up if need be, if Cole and Davy Wilson were both out...im that confident of them.

What about the likes of Collier? Is he in Brookes area of inexperienced rookie...or would he be in the equation if fit?

Which other senior props are there? Doran Jones has not made the grade.

Any new lads at Saints?

Geordie, I've long been a big critic of Collier who for the last couple of seasons has failed to reach potential. This season with JJ going he's really stepped up though, he's put opposition props under a load of pressure and technically scrummaged really well. He's not the most impressive in the loose but that's not so much of an issue is it? I'd imagine that he'd be ahead of Henry Thomas if he hadn't got crocked.

The thing is he's a scrum specialist no.... so Lancaster will take his word over his own I'm sure. I would question his ideas that Tom Youngs is a test standard hooker though and that Mako Vunipola can scrum.

Loose play is one thing but the minute England swap their front row with subs their entire game falls apart, it happened against France, it happened against NZ and it will happen against other sides. Yes its a team thing but you could put Bakkies Botha, Jonno, Nick Easter etc in their prime behind a front row of Vunipola, Youngs and Cole and they'd still struggle.

Cole is a decent player but thats about it. Decent. He's not world class, a world class loose operator sure but come scrum time he's average to good. He can't anchor a weak scrum on his own.

With Corbisiero and Wilson out it hurts England but a team of their calibre should not be limited to 15 players.... back in the day they could bring on a host of forwards who would be able to do a job.

These days all props want to be free scoring, reverse passing fly halves.... they need to sacrifice some of their mobility for being set piece specialists.

The French picked a front 5 that are particularly good in the scrum. England picked a front 5 that have a high workrate around the pitch and are mostly adequate in the scrum (actually went very well in the lineout until Hartley went off -got good ball on our throw, nicked a couple and disrupted the French even when they did win the ball).

We won't be up against a combination as tricky as the French again, so I think we'll at least hold our own for the rest of the tournament (unless Walsh is reffing...)

Is Cole another one struggling with the new laws? Its been well documented that Adam Jones is struggling but when I asked same question a while back about Cole I was told he's in good form doing well etc.

Set piece first. Loose second. That has to be the priority.

The French yes are good in the scrum but England's game is dependent on a good platform as is anyones. Gamble with it and the balance of power quickly goes to the opposition.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Is Cole another one struggling with the new laws?  Its been well documented that Adam Jones is struggling but when I asked same question a while back about Cole I was told he's in good form doing well etc.

I did think Wilson looked the better player in the AIs.. new laws will certainly suit different players. Joe Marler looks half decent now... before he was shocking (although he's young so perhaps it was just him growing into test rugby).

FA

Im not sure id lable Cole as just "decent". I think hes a very strong scrummager. Dont forget...no prop has a nice afternoon against Domingo.

Lets see how he goes against Scotland.

BamBam wrote:It comes down to the years of wasted players from Andy Robinson to Martin Johnson's reigns.

Who? Cole Wilson Marler and Corbiserio who all got their starts in England squads in those years? Stevens would still be about if he hadnt taken two year off and lost it (combined with Lancasters obsession with youth) and its Sheridans shoulder that retired him.
Of the current England set up its only Vunipola who Lancaster has introduced as an England player, and hes the dodgiest of the lot. The last few years of production line (age grade and saxons) has been his responsibility...not Johnsons.

GeordieFalcon wrote:FA

Im not sure id lable Cole as just "decent". I think hes a very strong scrummager. Dont forget...no prop has a nice afternoon against Domingo.

Lets see how he goes against Scotland.

Cole has been getting done in the scrum this season by players much less frightening than Domingo.

fa0019 wrote:The thing is he's a scrum specialist no.... so Lancaster will take his word over his own I'm sure. I would question his ideas that Tom Youngs is a test standard hooker though and that Mako Vunipola can scrum.

Loose play is one thing but the minute England swap their front row with subs their entire game falls apart, it happened against France, it happened against NZ and it will happen against other sides. Yes its a team thing but you could put Bakkies Botha, Jonno, Nick Easter etc in their prime behind a front row of Vunipola, Youngs and Cole and they'd still struggle.

Cole is a decent player but thats about it. Decent. He's not world class, a world class loose operator sure but come scrum time he's average to good. He can't anchor a weak scrum on his own.

With Corbisiero and Wilson out it hurts England but a team of their calibre should not be limited to 15 players.... back in the day they could bring on a host of forwards who would be able to do a job.

These days all props want to be free scoring, reverse passing fly halves.... they need to sacrifice some of their mobility for being set piece specialists.

did you miss the first half when we gave ourselves a mountain to climb?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

BamBam wrote:It comes down to the years of wasted players from Andy Robinson to Martin Johnson's reigns.

Who? Cole Wilson Marler and Corbiserio who all got their starts in England squads in those years? Stevens would still be about if he hadnt taken two year off and lost it (combined with Lancasters obsession with youth) and its Sheridans shoulder that retired him.
Of the current England set up its only Vunipola who Lancaster has introduced as an England player, and hes the dodgiest of the lot. The last few years of production line (age grade and saxons) has been his responsibility...not Johnsons.

Wasted players is probably the wrong word, I mean that there were no props who were in their mid 20s say in Ashton's reign, who are now grizzled vets with over 50 caps playing at international level. Cole etc did get their starts, but I would have still liked to see those experienced props about.

Over the next few years I hope to see Cole and Wilson in and around the squads but with the young guys pushing for their spots, and coming off the bench

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:For me the biggest failure in the props over the last few years is the project poster boy Doran Jones. Is he even still alive? A lot of time and effort was invested in him as the future.

England dont slect their front row on scrummaging ability anymore. Its a big shift in attude but something all the critics were constantly telling them they had to move with the times on.

No more Bells, Flatmans, Whites or Mr Blobby ... no you need a highly mobile modern pack.

The minute they get one the French pick the biggest ugliest bunch of bullfrogs they can find and gain a small advantage. Cest la vie.
They hardly got crunched to the degree suggested though. There was not a string of penalties given away or the sort of mayhem we saw against Wales last year (referee) or the sort of crushing weve seen England packs impose on Aus and Ireland in recent years. Nor did England struggle against the heavyweight Argentinian pack.
They arent great scrummagers but they arent terrible either.


IMO The lineout has been a bigger problem for England. Not only have they struggled to retain their own ball ( partly due to Youngs throwing) for quite some time but they really dont threaten the oppositions that often. Lawes helps but hes no Croft when it comes to disrupting the opposition. Wood used to be a great option ion that area but seems to have faded off, Id like to see England look to utilise him as a third option and in attacking the oppositions lineout more. This assuming Croft is dead.

PDJ is still around, busy warming the bench (behind Collier!) and being crushingly mediocre when he comes on for us now!

And I notice Artful Dodger didnt even give Marler a mention! Let's wait until the end of the 6N to condemn our scrummaging. It may have been a long term problem or it may have been struggling against France's midget front row, with 2 of the best technical props in world rugby. We did NOT struggle against NZ or Argentina

In one ear lives a Saint..in the other a Sinner. Rowntree is compromised by the two voices.

Rowntree was never a Saint - he was a Leicester Tiger.  Maybe that is why he hears voices?

And by the way, I think Cole needs a rest to get back to top form. Nothing against Cole at all, I think he is very good. Simply needs a break. Too much Rugby.

The Scotland game cemented my concerns. Will Rowntree respond? I very much doubt it. Cole was embarrassing. He jogged from scrum to lineout missing tackles and not getting involved wherever he could. He has got worse not better.

Secondly when Mako comes on he invariably has to scrum next to T. Youngs. If Hartley was there I'm sure his scrummaging would be immensely better.

All this confirms my opinion that Rowntree is definitely not the sharpest tool in the box. Thomas looked lively when he came on. He should be given a start and Youngs sent home.

So you wouldn't want him to stay on to coach the rest of the forwards roles? Who would you get in. Do you think it's Rowntree who has the sole or priority say in who plays in the forwards?

doctor_grey wrote:Rowntree was never a Saint - he was a Leicester Tiger.  Maybe that is why he hears voices?

And by the way, I think Cole needs a rest to get back to top form.  Nothing against Cole at all, I think he is very good.  Simply needs a break.  Too much Rugby.

Which is problematic when his backup is injured.

England are stuck here. Hes hardly been bad but the concern has to be there for the long term. Im sure theyd love to ask Tigers to rest him but thats certainly not going to happen the way their seasons panning out ( any more than they have to under the EPS deal). Its really come to the fore this year with Castro no longer being around to share his load at club level and the Lions tour, adding in Wilsons injury hes really being pushed to his limit. Its a hell of a long time since he had a proper break, hes toured every summer since I can remember, stated most games, done the world cup, lions and the first week had to put in an 80 minute shift because they have a child as a replacement who isnt ready yet.
I doubt theres an england player whos put in as many minutes on the pitch as him over the last 4 years.

I really cant see them resting him during the 6 nations unless theres absolutely no choice. England are big on the scrum and the other props are B grade in that area. Really they shouldve given Wilson more time in the AIs.
Summer tour? Well hes going to have to go.

Hopefuly the depth will be better by the time the world cup comes around, the problems going to be they may well have broken Cole by that pint.

Cole should miss the summer tour. He needs rest as a priority. We must try out a new prop and even if our scrum suffers (which it may not as NZ aren't big scrummagers and will look to release the ball rather then get pens) I can't see it having much more of an effect on what NZ will be busy doing to us anyway.

Probably right, but it would be a brave decision.

Theres nothing wrong with Englands scrum, it just isnt great anymore. There was a time it was the be all and end all of the side, but theres been a clear policy to bring through mobile props then teach them to scrum rather than picking the biggest lumps going who will never be able to get about the park. Englands defensive system relies on a mobile pack.
Marler has improved in that regard theres no question. People are clutching at straws is they are looking to critisise Rowntree as the weak link in Englands coaching, hes done a very good job building a pack thats effective in all areas. Unlike the backs, aside form a few desperate place fillers (Dowson) from the first year, theres not really been the merry go round in the Lancaster era. Its a stable unit thats strong in all areas. Very few of these guys were established stars 3 years ago (Cole, Hartley, Lawes) ...guys like Marler and Hartley seem to have toned down their problematic sides, Vunipola and Morgan have become fit enough to last 12 minutes.
Lets give some credit where its due.

englandglory4ever wrote:The Scotland game cemented my concerns. Will Rowntree respond? I very much doubt it. Cole was embarrassing. He jogged from scrum to lineout missing tackles and not getting involved wherever he could. He has got worse not better.

Secondly when Mako comes on he invariably has to scrum next to T. Youngs. If Hartley was there I'm sure his scrummaging would be immensely better.

All this confirms my opinion that Rowntree is definitely not the sharpest tool in the box. Thomas looked lively when he came on. He should be given a start and Youngs sent home.

Alternatively, Rowntrees orders were to take it easy...its only Scotland. Dont bust a gut as theres bigger fish to come. Cue Scottish comeback   

I think it is a problem. But Davy Wilson is out and the experienced ones like PDJ dont cut the mustard.

Scotty Wilson, Brookes, Collier? All very young and inexperienced. It would be a brave call to give Cole a rest for one of those...though id back Brookes to shine.

seriously, are we turning on rowntree now because i thought we were all singing the forwards praises not long ago. All our forwards have moved away from big scrummagers to a more mobile game.

I think this is a case of your damned if you do and damned if you dont

Sorry you obviously didn't watch Cole. He was anything but mobile. He looked like he was ill or hung over. He needs a rest but will he get it. He is playing quite poorly and should be dropped.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you wouldn't want him to stay on to coach the rest of the forwards roles? Who would you get in. Do you think it's Rowntree who has the sole or priority say in who plays in the forwards?

He will have a big say in selecting forwards. If they put Cole out again I will feel sorry for him as it will be like beating an
Almost dead horse. Who would I have in place of Rowntree? Not sure but someone like Baxter of Exeter.

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you wouldn't want him to stay on to coach the rest of the forwards roles? Who would you get in. Do you think it's Rowntree who has the sole or priority say in who plays in the forwards?

He will have a big say in selecting forwards. If they put Cole out again I will feel sorry for him as it will be like beating an
Almost dead horse. Who would I have in place of Rowntree? Not sure but someone like Baxter of Exeter.

I'm guessing thats why Cole has stayed in camp instead of being released back to the Tigers. He needs a week off.

Why would you have Baxter? Out of interest what's he done that makes you think he's better then Rowntree?

Hav any players from th first 15 been released? That would be quite unusual.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Hav any players from th first 15 been released? That would be quite unusual.

I don't think so. I read the starting XV from the previous game are retained in camp. Apparently the XV had a game against Loughborough Uni this morning (no replacements). The rest of the squad are back with clubs.

So Rowntree didn't spot Cole's under performance? It takes a gym session to identify a weakness in one arm. I can only assume Rowntree would have sent him out against Ireland. Surely this shows he is not up to the job.