Can Lancaster's England survive a second loss?

First topic message reminder :

With England 0/1 and still with their nemesis Wales and the resurgent Ireland to face, it's worth thinking about where that leaves England.

Losing again will threaten their 4th placing. Lancaster has staked his reputation on being the second best team in the world by the end of the season. That would see him needing a series clean sweep in NZ to reach his self imposed objective.

With the scrum and lineout both looking less than stable, and questions around the effectiveness of his Backline the saviour of English rugby could be in a tricky spot should he lose either of those encounters.

It's unlikely that Scotland have the players to upset this England squad, but should they do so in one of those freak Scottish upset victories that have become prominent of late, could we hypothetically be looking at a New England coach before the World Cup? Following an historic 6N wooden spoon?

We know that England are a team that play on confidence, and that adversity easily rattles the side and brings them under the scrutiny of Britain's vicious tabloid assault. Just look at the collapse of the celebrated England cricket team. How far away is something similar for the chariot?

they should seriously think about setting up a no holds barred thread. with suitable health warning disclaimers attached.

could be restricted to match threads only. would be awesome.

mystiroakey wrote:Are we on a tight leash...

Maybe we should be able to opt into an anything goes thread that is blocked to the wider internet audience!!

sorry pal, hadnt read your post before i posted.

dare i say it but...

great minds think alike

 

quinsforever wrote:they should seriously think about setting up a no holds barred thread. with suitable health warning disclaimers attached.

could be restricted to match threads only. would be awesome.

Go suggest it on the mods behaviour sticky. I would suggest it myself but I'm sure id cop a ban for insubordination, again.

GloriousEmpire wrote:With England 0/1 and still with their nemesis Wales and the resurgent Ireland to face, it's worth thinking about where that leaves England.

Losing again will threaten their 4th placing. Lancaster has staked his reputation on being the second best team in the world by the end of the season. That would see him needing a series clean sweep in NZ to reach his self imposed objective.

With the scrum and lineout both looking less than stable, and questions around the effectiveness of his Backline the saviour of English rugby could be in a tricky spot should he lose either of those encounters.

It's unlikely that Scotland have the players to upset this England squad, but should they do so in one of those freak Scottish upset victories that have become prominent of late, could we hypothetically be looking at a New England coach before the World Cup? Following an historic 6N wooden spoon?

We know that England are a team that play on confidence, and that adversity easily rattles the side and brings them under the scrutiny of Britain's vicious tabloid assault. Just look at the collapse of the celebrated England cricket team. How far away is something similar for the chariot?

I think this is a real interesting discussion.  But I have to qualify a few points.   First, I don't care about IRB nation rankings.  If a team wins then everyone will know intuitively whether that team is good or not.  I equate these kinds of rankings to the judging in gymnastics or figure skating.  And to that point, I thought staking the success of England's season to being second in the rankings was bizarre (polite term used).  The other point is about England being a confidence team and are unduly rattled by adversity.  Frankly, most sports teams are confidence teams, but England showed adversity doesn't bother them so much as they fought back from big deficits in their last two matches.  If being down 16-3 in France isn't Rugby adversity, then what is?

On the other hand, the point about how much losing Lancaster can afford is a valid one.  Clearly, a wooden spoon, though unlikely, would (or maybe should?) be the death knell for him and his coaching team.  And for all the Lancaster detractors, I think only a wooden spoon will see him released from his duties.  Conversely, England can still with the 6 Nations.  They only lost one match last year, as did Wales, the eventual winner.  Coming off the loss to France, that would be big.  

But what about in the middle?  Losses to Ireland and Wales combined with wins against Scotland and Italy would still be considered a borderline disaster.   If most people view the substitution or selection policy as the root cause of the losses Lascaster will be under huge pressure.  Because that means flawed judgement as opposed to mistakes.  People make mistakes, but bad judgement is a forever thing.  If players continue to get hurt, then he gets a pass.   If England stutter in the rest of the 6 Nations, would we see a change in coaching staff?  Depending on how they play, quite possibly.  If poor play is seen as attrubuted to poor leadership, could Robshaw be replaced as captain?  I tend to doubt it, at least right away.  

But this is all speculative.  As an England supporter, I hope to see England go from glorious triumph to glorious triumph.  Unfortunately, as an England supporter, I know that is somewhat unrealistic.  But England can still win this tournament and also win the RWC. So, here's hoping for the best.

And for our players being played out of position, didn't Australia play a lock at wing in the one of the matches in the last RWC?  Ah that genius Robbie Deans............... oh wait, is he still coaching?

A no holds barred thread?

You'd have to ban the people who turn up and be offended by the words "No Holds Barred"

The term is after all sexist, homophobic, abusive, racist, nationalistic, anti-Welsh, pro-ref and a totally unbecoming place for Ladies or Ladyboys to be hanging out in.

Good points well made. Suspect it would need a euphemistic tag, such as "genuine discussion thread".

It would need to be named something that a casual rugby site user would never go and check. Something like: in depth discussion of tight head scrummaging techniques. Or: Croatian Rugby. Or something like that

Yeah..you're getting there with the 'disguise' idea. I'm not so certain though that "in depth discussion of tight head scrummaging techniques" wouldn't attract a plethora of Brian Moore fans.

Nothing worse than a Brian Moore debate going on n the background when you're trying to kill off an opponent with the best abusive personal insult in your armoury. It's distracting.

Stuart Barnes fan club? Surely nobody would join in seriousness?

Kill the 'view' and 'reply' count and you could be onto a winner with that one.

quinsforever wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

quinsforever wrote:scratch - the wales 9 and 10 are so bad, slow and poor decision makers relative to 12-14 (i dont share your view on 1/2P's preeminence), that i dont think it matters how good your 12-14 are in a vacuum.

against decent sides backs cant go forwards when going backwards...SA, Aus, Japan

so if your platform in the pack wobbles, and 9/10 is an unimaginative weak link, then who cares about your 12-14. although Roberts and North are really great i agree.

dont share your view on 1/2P's preeminence)

It takes a lot of confidence (or ignorance) to disagree with pretty much every person adjudicating Halfpenny's ability. Six Nations Player of the Tournament, Lions Player of the Tour, 2nd in World Player of the year. Did anyone ask you to sit on those panels? Thought not. The expression know nothing Richard head springs to mind. Yes I know you are entitled to your opinion but that does mean its worth the time spent typing it

scratch said he was the best FB in world rugby. i said i disagree. you said he was 6N POTY, Lions POTY, and 2nd in POTY (along with Etzebeth, Parisse and Smith, none of whom play 15).

can you honestly not see how i can agree with the awards he was given and still disagree with Scratch?

do i have to spell it out?

Please, for me   

I doubt Lancaster would be shunted out the door now even if we were to finish bottom. I don't think we will anyway.

doctor_grey wrote: 

And for our players being played out of position, didn't Australia play a lock at wing in the one of the matches in the last RWC?  Ah that genius Robbie Deans............... oh wait, is he still coaching?

Was his name O'Banahan or something similar, sounds a familiar tale.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

doctor_grey wrote: 

And for our players being played out of position, didn't Australia play a lock at wing in the one of the matches in the last RWC?  Ah that genius Robbie Deans............... oh wait, is he still coaching?

Was his name O'Banahan or something similar, sounds a familiar tale.

Radike Samo, the lock/number 8, started and played wing the whole game in the last RWC in the Wallabies match against Russia. Aus still won big.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

doctor_grey wrote: 

And for our players being played out of position, didn't Australia play a lock at wing in the one of the matches in the last RWC?  Ah that genius Robbie Deans............... oh wait, is he still coaching?

Was his name O'Banahan or something similar, sounds a familiar tale.

Of course Robbie Deans and Australia came third at the rugby world cup...remind me where your team's finished? under their genius coaches?

Robbie Deans also kept Australia at #2 in the world rankings for his entire tenure...something that Stuart Lancaster can only publicly dream of, and Gatland is too shrewd to mention publicly.

Yep - I'm sure Robbie Deans has probably asked for some advice on what to do with his time off from Martin Johnson who has plenty of practise already.

Can Lancaster survive a second loss? Yes. As can Lancaster's England. Start accumulating those losses and any coach comes under fire. Deans held out for so long because the only side that got the better of him was NZ and they were in a period where they were doing that to every other team as well.

It's not panic stations as Lancaster has brought consistency to England that Johnson was not able to get. The odd loss to Wales, SA and NZ here and there and some high profile wins and you get credits in the bank that can offset loans when your team starts to lose. But like any coach, once you start going into the red, there's only so much goodwill and rhetoric you can muster. Results and the bottom line count for all and so far we haven't seen Lancaster under pressure. Slip a few more games and that's exactly what we'll see. If Gatland wasn't winning 6N and losing not only to SH teams but to NH teams, the same would apply to him.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Robshaw's comments about a "backlash" from England smack of desperation and arrogance to me.

Let's face facts, England have faded in their last two matches. Nay, disintegrated. The bench has proven to be lightweight and ineffective. They've had no game plan to close out a narrow lead and deserved to lose with such lack of composure.

England should worry about getting their house in order and finding the way to the white paint again rather than conjuring some delusion of being hard done by.

Unfortunately from what I've seen recently at twickenham, the lack of level playing field available to visitors is likely to make Scotland's talent deficit too hard to overcome in the land where special rules apparently apply.

The game is at Murrayfield.

Re. the above, you shouldn't get so agitated by media articles or player soundbites. Same as I shouldn't get so agitated by your jibber jabber

Cyril wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Robshaw's comments about a "backlash" from England smack of desperation and arrogance to me.

Let's face facts, England have faded in their last two matches. Nay, disintegrated. The bench has proven to be lightweight and ineffective. They've had no game plan to close out a narrow lead and deserved to lose with such lack of composure.

England should worry about getting their house in order and finding the way to the white paint again rather than conjuring some delusion of being hard done by.

Unfortunately from what I've seen recently at twickenham, the lack of level playing field available to visitors is likely to make Scotland's talent deficit too hard to overcome in the land where special rules apparently apply.

The game is at Murrayfield.

Re. the above, you shouldn't get so agitated by media articles or player soundbites. Same as I shouldn't get so agitated by your jibber jabber

Hes also got Twickers mixed up with Lords

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Can Lancaster survive a second loss? Yes. As can Lancaster's England. Start accumulating those losses and any coach comes under fire. Deans held out for so long because the only side that got the better of him was NZ and they were in a period where they were doing that to every other team as well.

It's not panic stations as Lancaster has brought consistency to England that Johnson was not able to get. The odd loss to Wales, SA and NZ here and there and some high profile wins and you get credits in the bank that can offset loans when your team starts to lose. But like any coach, once you start going into the red, there's only so much goodwill and rhetoric you can muster. Results and the bottom line count for all and so far we haven't seen Lancaster under pressure. Slip a few more games and that's exactly what we'll see. If Gatland wasn't winning 6N and losing not only to SH teams but to NH teams, the same would apply to him.

Hmmm, not sure.

Two capitulations on the trot now, add that to the disasterous record loss to Wales last year and the results portfolio don't hold up for Lancaster.

Add to that his inability to get the back line scoring tries - and one wonders if Lancaster isn't turning England into Scotland.

These things could be written off as traditional English frailties, however now too, he seems to be eroding the cornerstone of English rugby - the set piece - with both the scrum and lineout struggling against other 6N opposition. Could any England fan forgive Lancaster if England could no longer even rely on the 10 man game?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Robshaw's comments about a "backlash" from England smack of desperation and arrogance to me.

Let's face facts, England have faded in their last two matches. Nay, disintegrated. The bench has proven to be lightweight and ineffective. They've had no game plan to close out a narrow lead and deserved to lose with such lack of composure.

England should worry about getting their house in order and finding the way to the white paint again rather than conjuring some delusion of being hard done by.

Unfortunately from what I've seen recently at twickenham, the lack of level playing field available to visitors is likely to make Scotland's talent deficit too hard to overcome in the land where special rules apparently apply.

The game is at Murrayfield.

Re. the above, you shouldn't get so agitated by media articles or player soundbites. Same as I shouldn't get so agitated by your jibber jabber

Hes also got Twickers mixed up with Lords

He also got Lords mixed up with Lorde.

Another English rugby article from GE........obsessive comes to mind.

Why don't you go and bother some of the other nations supporters?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Another English rugby article from GE........obsessive comes to mind.

Why don't you go and bother some of the other nations supporters?

Because half the board got exiled when he went after Wales

I write articles about all nations - it appears that your parochial outlook has you obsessed with English ones - perhaps you just don't bother to read my other threads?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Another English rugby article from GE........obsessive comes to mind.

Why don't you go and bother some of the other nations supporters?

I don't remember seeing one after the England win over NZ in 2012.

I guess his internet connection went down for 6 months. I've heard how that can happen.

Nope Cyril. I popped in and congratulated England, on both their rugby and their carefully controlled standards of food hygiene.

Cyril wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Robshaw's comments about a "backlash" from England smack of desperation and arrogance to me.

Let's face facts, England have faded in their last two matches. Nay, disintegrated. The bench has proven to be lightweight and ineffective. They've had no game plan to close out a narrow lead and deserved to lose with such lack of composure.

England should worry about getting their house in order and finding the way to the white paint again rather than conjuring some delusion of being hard done by.

Unfortunately from what I've seen recently at twickenham, the lack of level playing field available to visitors is likely to make Scotland's talent deficit too hard to overcome in the land where special rules apparently apply.

The game is at Murrayfield.

Re. the above, you shouldn't get so agitated by media articles or player soundbites. Same as I shouldn't get so agitated by your jibber jabber

Hes also got Twickers mixed up with Lords

He also got Lords mixed up with Lorde.

I get her mixed up with the Finnish metal band that won Eurovision a few years ago. They have similar facial expressions

Yawn.....I never get past the title because you're a predictable wum.

If anything I reckon GE secretly wants to be English. He who doth protest and all that.

GunsGerms wrote:If anything I reckon GE secretly wants to be English. He who doth protest and all that.

Residency qualified

You can't help yourself GE. I'm sure it comes from initially supporting England before you switched to support NZ. Maybe it's just your guilty conscience for leaving your team?

GloriousEmpire wrote:Nope Cyril. I popped in and congratulated England, on both their rugby and their carefully controlled standards of food hygiene.

I think we would have remembered that. Perhaps you meant to and forgot.

I wouldn't describe a 2 point loss as a capitulation GE. It's not two capitulations in a row because the Wales and France game had the autumn internationals between it and neither was the NZ result a capitulation. That was more NZ the previous year.  

GE, like me, is a British citizen.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:GE, like me, is a British citizen.

You seem to enjoy being here kia (or at least don't complain how bad it is every five seconds).

I voted with my feet Cyril. I live in Spain.   

quinsforever wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Are we on a tight leash...

Maybe we should be able to opt into an anything goes thread that is blocked to the wider internet audience!!

sorry pal, hadnt read your post before i posted.

dare i say it but...

great minds think alike

Am I imagining it or was someone accusing you 2 of being the same person a few months ago? Im not at all by the way, just thought it would be funny if they read that.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I voted with my feet Cyril. I live in Spain.   

That's in a worse state than the UK!

With admittedly better weather...

I lived in London and lived in Scotland briefly as a kid. I have fond memories of my time in the UK. When you wander the globe, it's difficult to retain a sense of identity but your roots always remain strong. My experience is that there is no such thing as the perfect place. Every place has its advantages and disadvantages and you have to make the most of what a place has to offer and if you are incapable of doing that, then it's time to move on. The problem is though once you have experienced different ways of living, wanderlust sets in and it makes it difficult to remain in one spot for long. That said, it's nice to settle down and call somewhere home. I could point out many things I don't like about Spain but there are also many appealing aspects about the country in which I reside and I prefer to make the most of those. I'm off for a siesta...

To be fair, the UK is going through a rough patch, the temptation to leave is getting stronger

Cyril wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I voted with my feet Cyril. I live in Spain.   

That's in a worse state than the UK!

With admittedly better weather...

And Women

munkian wrote:

Cyril wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I voted with my feet Cyril. I live in Spain.   

That's in a worse state than the UK!

With admittedly better weather...

And Women

The UK has some fine women!

so why dont you support England Kia.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:If anything I reckon GE secretly wants to be English. He who doth protest and all that.

Residency qualified

I said English not British. I know he is British.

I support Scotland oakey due to my Scottish father. He has precedence over my English grandparents.

I support England in football. Well I did before I married a Spanish woman. Now I feel obliged to support Spain because I am an Atletico season pass holder. Looks like my timing was impeccable!

Who is the alternative England coach?

Kia, you're not a Liverpool fan I hope

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I support Scotland oakey due to my Scottish father. He has precedence over my English grandparents.

I support England in football. Well I did before I married a Spanish woman. Now I feel obliged to support Spain because I am an Atletico season pass holder. Looks like my timing was impeccable!

I wish Athletico were in La liga when I lived in Madrid. Instead I had to watch the galacticos at Real and 0 atmosphere.

Why would anyone want to support England in football? Even English people.

GunsGerms wrote:Why would anyone want to support England in football? Even English people.

Since when did choosing which nation you support become an option?

Because it numbed the pain of supporting the All Whites. It was comforting that a country with more resources could make a complete hash of it, albeit at a higher level.

So you are no different to emack..


pfft

Your roots are in england IMO, you shouldnt support the Kiwis at rugby, or spain at football.




You support Spain and kiwis.. ermm you got me thinking

Do you support the USA in the Olympics as well.

GloriousEmpire wrote:My cards on the table: Farrell never came to grips with rugby union as a player and I'm not sure what he's supposed to have done as a coach to warren this inclusion in the national set up. Let's face it, he was fourth and Hobson's choice anyway.

[PS 'Warrant']

You do seem to be a secret  England fan GE frequently fretting about English rugby.
You may be qualified by residency to become  English. Worth checking.