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Why Joe Louis IS A Boxing Hero

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Post by hampo17 Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:05 pm

By Chris Williamson.

Catchweight's Jack Johnson thread on the v2 forum, in which comparisons were drawn between Papa Jack and Joe Louis, got me thinking about the latter. Louis does get scrutinized a lot on v2, but usually for his boxing record and abilities, first and foremost - which is how it should be, I suppose. But between all those arguments (you know, the ones between those who say he was a perfect 10 right across the boards and those who say he could shadow box and actually lose to the shadow), have we actually lost sight of something more important?

Joe Louis Barrow was born in Alabama on May 13, 1914, just another black baby of a poor family which had never experienced, and could never hope for, anything close to an equal footing in society in a racially segregated America, never mind any great deal of respect and admiration from it. And yet, when Louis passed away on April 12, 1981 at the age of 66, he would be buried in Arlington National Cemetery, a resting place specially reserved for those who the United States Government deemed to be heroes of their nation in military terms.

That's an impressive achievement by anyone's standards, but for a black man of that era, who boasted no real education to speak of and who was part of a sporting world in which blacks were still finding it hard to get the opportunities their talents merited, it looks pretty phenomenal from where I'm stood.

Oddly enough, being sandwiched in between Johnson and, of course, Muhammad Ali, I feel as if the impact Louis had on American society, and the huge amount of good he did for minorities within boxing, actually gets undervalued and understated, as crazy as that might sound. Unlike those two, Louis wasn't a naturally gifted orator or showman. He didn't have Johnson's brazen arrogance or nerve, and nor did he have Ali's good looks and glib tongue.

Johnson, as the first ever black Heavyweight champion, got "there" first as well, of course. An achievement, and the person who managed it, always lingers closer to the front of the memory if it was the first of its kind, or if they were the first to achieve it. Take a look at the buzz surrounding Bradley Wiggins becoming the first-ever British winner of the Tour de France in 2012, for instance, and then compare it to the relatively low-key reception in the press for Chris Froome's triumph just one year later as a good recent example.

Ali, too, has something of a head start on Louis, if that makes any sense. Unlike Louis, his career flourished in what was by now well and truly the television age of professional sports (whereas Louis' adoring fans generally had to make do with radio broadcasts, and if they were lucky an edited, shortened rerun of his most recent fight in selected cinemas in the weeks which followed). He was accessible, more so than any other black sportsman before him.

By the time Ali had become very possibly the most recognisable face on the planet in the mid to late sixties, a lot had changed. The strength of support for the Jim Crow America and its ideologies had crumbled significantly; a counter culture of embarrassment at how their government had treated minorities and conducted itself in overseas affairs now existed between far more Americans than it previously had. No longer could politicians, school governors, restaurateurs, officers of the law etc simply wash their hands of responsibility when it came to racial inequality, or brush it off with the argument that the issue had been there long before them, and hence wasn't their problem to fix. From widespread opposition to and disillusion with the Vietnam War, to the assassination of Martin Luther King which was felt and effectively experienced vicariously by millions, the need for change was being supported more than ever before - and even in places where it wasn't, the fact remained that 'middle America' was now in a much less dominant position to try and stamp it out, as they had managed for so many decades beforehand.

So when Ali publicly called for change, flaunted his then relatively unknown (in the States at least) and almost mystical religious views, relentlessly criticised American foreign policy and subjected those who he deemed to be on the other side to a torrent of jibes and insults (some playful, some not so), he could still enrage many millions, of course, but crucially he could also expect to garner some supporters from all walks of life, some of them pretty powerful and influential figures, too.

That's a stark contrast to Louis, who would have soon found out the hard way that such an approach wouldn't have been possible in his own era, I imagine. To some, even the young, brash Ali (who was at one stage critical of Louis for remaining silent on the kind of issues he relished speaking out on, and who also insisted that Louis had ended up broke because he had "surrounded himself with whites and Jews", although the pair of them later patched things up), Louis' actions the way he carried himself seemed almost subservient - but I find that a pretty disgraceful view to take, in all honesty.

As New York civil rights activist Bob Law said in 2008, "Joe Louis was what the black community needed him to be. He was really all that he could have been at the time, based on what he knew, what he understood and the environment he came up in."

Contrary to popular belief, Louis' quiet, dignified approach to his career was also appreciated by many contemporary minorities, too. Comparing Louis directly to Johnson, in 1937 the black-owned Detroit Tribune newspaper stated, "Louis may not be as perfect a fighter as Johnson was, and he may never be. But Louis is making amends for the mistakes Johnson made, and is breaking down the barriers raised largely because of Johnson. In the wake of Jack Johnson, our fighters lost all hope. In the wake of Joe Louis, our fighters see another era."

Even Malcolm X, a man whose brash attitude, outspoken nature and aggressive rhetoric often stoked the fires which Louis' contrasting personality attempted to stamp out, cited Louis as a major source of inspiration. Remembering the summer day in 1937 when Louis lifted the Heavyweight title from James Braddock, X wrote in his autobiography, "All the negroes in Lansing, like all the negroes everywhere, went wildly happy with the greatest celebration of race pride our generation had ever known. Every negro boy old enough to walk wanted to be the next Brown Bomber." And while X had come a long way by the time of the March on Washington in 1963, often lambasting those who favoured civil disobedience over his more robust methods, he still acknowledged Louis' importance by stating that, "Nothing since Joe Louis had so coalesced the masses of Negroes."

Inspiring so many of his own was no mean feat, but from this point in history it's hard to fully appreciate the magnitude of the task Louis faced in trying to win over the majority of white America - but he did it. To some, Louis encouraging his fellow blacks in America to serve in World War Two (or being used as a mouthpiece by the government to do so, if you're of the more cynical persuasion) lessens his credibility to a degree. After all, why should young men risk their lives and be apart from their loved ones for the sake of a country which had so often flat out refused to grant them an equal footing in life? I'll stress, it seems perfectly understandable to me that so many minorities in the States wanted to give the country exactly what it had given them - nothing.

However, you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, to coin an old phrase. Conflict and fighting fire with fire, in their own ways, have helped to resolve certain historical issues, and aren't necessarily to be underestimated or dismissed out of hand. However, history is also littered with examples of opposing sides slowly being brought together and gaining greater understanding and tolerance of each other, which in its own right can reap great rewards. Now I don't need to give anyone a history lesson in that department - I'm sure you can think of cases which cover both sides of the coin for yourselves. But Louis chose to second path, and won many admirers in doing so - even white ones. Captain Fred Maly, after the War had ended, commented, "There is no question that thousands of white soldiers drew a fairer and better evaluation of the negro soldier upon seeing and talking with Louis."

Louis' loyalty to the USA despite the mistreatment of black soldiers which was still commonplace wasn't (and still isn't) universally popular, then - but nor was it in vain. And it shouldn't be ignored that Louis wasn't patriotic to the point of blindness; he did more than his fair share to ensure that black soldiers fighting for America received a fairer shake in any way he possibly could. When the more than qualified Jackie Robinson, who himself would break crucial racial ground in baseball, was refused the chance to apply for Office Candidate School along with a host of other fully-qualified black inductees, Louis took it upon himself to contact Truman Gibson, a prominent black lawyer of the day and an assistant to the chief of the 'Negro Cabinet' of America, who promptly found a way to settle the issue - Robinson and his fellow applicants were soon admitted to OCS.

Likewise, when Louis was ordered early on in the War to perform exhibitions to segregated crowds of servicemen, he refused, eventually forcing the authorities to yield to his demands of mixed crowds. When his old friend Robinson, infuriated by an officer's racist taunts, promptly knocked the offending officer's two front teeth out, Gibson recalled years later how Louis had "tactfully bribed" the officer in question, asking him to overlook Robinson's actions, thus sparing him a dishonourable discharge (he later received an honourable one, incredibly enough) and a prison term.

He wasn't done there. In January 1942, shortly after Japan's attack on Pearl Harbour, Louis boxed an exhibition (later billed as a title defence) against Buddy Baer, donating his $49,000 purse to the Navy Relief Fund. When he officially enrolled in to the United States Army just three days later, he was offered an officer's role, but turned it down. Louis wanted to be a 'regular' G.I, and went on to say, "I'm only doing what any red-blooded American would. We're gonna do our part, and we're gonna win because we're on God's side." Two months later, Louis once again donated his entire purse for a fight to the Navy Relief Fund (this time his opponent was Abe Simon) - this time, it was a cool $75,000.

So surely, regardless of whether you think Louis was right or wrong to throw his support so emphatically behind the war effort, you have to admire the way in which he juggled the two responsibilities so beautifully; projecting his generosity and bravery to a middle America which all too often hadn't been willing to take a proper look beforehand while carrying the living up to the expectations of his own people can't have been easy - but Louis had the knack for it.

There is, of course, one area which could potentially go some way to undoing much of Louis' wonderful work both as an advert for boxing (or all sports, come to think of it) and also in the war effort - the rumours of his less than impressive conduct towards his wives (he went through three of them). There is no question that Louis was a prodigious womaniser who found it virtually impossible to remain faithful to his other halves. As Louis' biographer Randy Roberts wrote, "Louis was unfair to Marva (Trotter, Louis' wife from 1935-1945 and again from 1946-1949), and he knew it. But that didn't stop him having affairs with singer Lena Horne, figure skater Sonja Henie and actress Lana Turner. Joe enjoyed himself, disappearing when he chose, seeking the arms of other women and the comforts of welcoming black communities."

Early in his career, knowing that his road to the title would be a difficult one given the nature of the times, Louis' managers Julian Black and John Roxborough wrote up an intense guideline in public relations for Louis to follow in order to courier favour with the almost exclusively white sporting press, promising that he'd never be seen alone in a nightclub, wouldn't partake in any fixed fight, wouldn't humiliate a beaten opponent by standing over them in celebration, would never be photographed with a white woman and would be a clean-living athlete through and through. The last one went awry, but I guess four our of five ain't bad.

More serious, however, is the accusation that Louis, from time to time, wasn't shy in using his fists on his wives. Can a man do that and still be a hero of any kind, even in a marginalised context? Tricky. Also, how true are these rumours?

For such an iconic fighter and public figure, genuine and reliable information of whether or not any of his marriages spawned physical violence domestically is rare in comparative terms. Marva Trotter in particular claimed to have been a victim of Louis' sporadic outbursts, filing for their first divorce while at the same time bringing about a law suit against Louis which attempted to claim compensation from Louis for what she described as "domestic violence and negligence." She certainly had a point with the latter, but the former?

Not everyone was convinced. At the time, Carter Wesley of the Dallas Post wrote, "Marva says Joe did his boxing against her. Frankly, we don't believe it." Wesley then opined that the claim was merely formulated, "to embarrass Joe and keep him from fighting the suit much, lest she go through with more of that type of charge." Likewise, Lawrence Brockenbury of The Express was doubtful, saying, "Joe has done enough for her not to have said that. She was just another stenographer when Joe started draping her in togs galore. That's what I call biting the hand that feeds (or slaps?) you."

Is it just me, or do you also suspect that there could possibly be a hint of dismissive attitude and bias in those quotes? It's hard to square the possibility that Joe Louis hit women even from this point in history, and it's not a pleasant theory to face. So imagine how hard it must have been for those who had idolised him within his own era, who so, so desperately wanted it to be a lie? Nevertheless, I genuinely find myself undecided on the matter, as so much of it does seem to simply be based on one person's word against another's. Whether or not this is enough to undo the work Louis had previously done in his life, thus disqualifying him from hero status, is entirely down to you as an individual.

After all that, the details of Louis' career in the ring seem almost inconsequential, which is really saying something. He was what everyone would want a champion to be - consistent, ruthless, dominant. He turned back 25 challengers in succession between lifting the title from James J. Braddock in 1937 and retiring for the first time in 1949 (and thus relinquishing the crown), all of this despite the War rendering him inactive for much of his peak. And while some of his challengers were, even by his own admission, fully paid up members of the 'Bum of the Month' club, there was also not a single worthwhile contender or mandatory challenge who he failed to accommodate, either.

He touched perfection on June 22, 1938, when he obliterated Germany's Max Schmeling (who'd previously broken black America's heart with a shock KO win over Louis two years earlier) in a single round in front of more than 70,000 frenzied fans in New York's Yankee Stadium. To say that Louis was under pressure going in to this fight would be a masterpiece of understatement. When Louis was first invited to the White House to meet President Roosevelt in 1935, it's said in boxing folklore that the President, while inspecting and feeling Louis' bicep, quietly said to him, "Joe, we need muscles like yours to beat Germany." There may be an element of myth to this, as it would have required some serious foresight from Roosevelt to have seen Germany as a real risk at such an early stage. However, when he met Roosevelt again just before re-matching Schmeling, the President did tell him for a fact, "You know, Joe, America isn't supposed to lose."

Despite this, Louis kept his head. Throughout a threatened boycott of the fight by New York's two million Jews, disgusted by Nazi Germany's treatment of their European counterparts (a regime effectively represented in their eyes by Schmelling, even if that did him a disservice), he kept his head. Despite many social and political commentators of the time predicting that the fight, and the result of it, could serve as a sign of what was to come in the ever-nearing collision between American freedom and German tyranny, he kept his head.

More impressively, perhaps, Louis never gave way to hate, despite being surrounded by it. To him, Schmeling (who was being vilified in the American press to a stunning degree) was just another opponent, and the two even became great friends in retirement, right up until Louis' death in 1981. "I didn't only like him", said Schmeling in the days following Louis' passing. "I loved him."

Joe Louis was a giant - and I'm not just talking about his 6'2", 200 lb frame, which saw him tower over most black men of the era who emerged from similarly troubled backgrounds. He was a giant in the history of the Heavyweight division, a star so bright that, in boxing terms, only Ali can have a claim to rank higher than him, in my opinion. He was a world-wide symbol of hope to millions who'd previously never had any. He was black America's first, and perhaps the ultimate, sporting idol, so successful both in and out of the ring that, by the time he was finished with boxing, he was a hero to just about all Americans, regardless of race, colour or creed.

He lived as an ailing shadow of that former giant in later life, beset by financial woes, psychiatric problems and heart disease, and it's tragic that such a high price was demanded for him. But those final few sad chapters do nothing to wash away what went before. The life and times of Louis, and the place in the wider public's affections which he eventually commanded, are arguably the greatest symbols of radical change in America from the Depression years to the civil rights marches more than three decades later. Black, from a poor family, little education, in a country shackled by prejudice and competing in a sport where being an ethnic minority usually meant the death knell for your career - by all of those standards, Louis should have failed. But he succeeded - and my God, how he succeeded.

As legendary sports journalist Jimmy Cannon said, "He was a credit to his race - the human race."

Chris is a member of our Boxing Podcast team and you can listen to him here, or follow him on twitter.

http://v2journal.com/16/post/2014/02/why-joe-louis-is-a-boxing-hero.html

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:27 pm

Excellent stuff Mate.............Azania would tell you he's an Uncle Tom........But Louis managed to unite a Country in a difficult time through sport.....

Doing sterling work during the War and basically being very mature in immature times.........

Think Patterson deserves credit also for believing in human beings above race and color...

Louis was one helluva guy.

Great Man for sure............


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Post by Guest Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:31 pm

Yes he was a boxing hero,and was an important man for the reasons you so articulately describe,Chris. I have read a biography of the man and felt a great affection for him ("Champion" by Chris Mead). However I'm in a minority of a few on this board-sorry Chris and Rowley-in that I can't really see him as a top three ATG heavy.
I know the point of the article was not to argue his status as a ATG heavy, but I wonder if the cultural significance does not conflate with the subject of his ability.
Nicely written and I think I will re-read the book-I heartily recommend it by the way to anyone interested in Louis, I know there are more recent ones but that really was a good read.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:59 pm

Best not to get into the Louis overrated stuff.........But as you know I'm one of the minority.....

Kind of funny though on another thread someone who thinks Schmelling and the like are top fighters....views Canelo as a hype job.......

Always loved Louis friendship with Billy conn...........Some good stories there especially..

Conn - You should have let me have the title..I'd have kept it for six months ..let you have it back !!

Louis - You had it for 12 rounds and couldn't keep it...How were you going to keep it for six months !!

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Post by hazharrison Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:12 pm

https://youtu.be/K3PpR12yaRs

What a fighter.

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Post by spencerclarke Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:12 pm

Excellent piece Chris. Very interesting character and his achievements are all the better for the pressure he was under at times.

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Post by Strongback Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:27 pm

Boxing and baseball were the two top sports in America in the first half of the 20th century.  The top two quintessential American sports heros in that period were Babe Ruth and Joe Louis.  I could get quotes to back that up if I had the energy right now.

In the latter years Schmelling sorted out a lot of Louis' financial problems and paid him an allowance to help him get by. It was only after a lot of political pressure that Louis' IRS debt was quashed.

Womanizing appears to go along with being Heavyweight champion.  The mentioned Johnson and Ali being masters of the art.

With Ali I would say his worldwide fame really skyrocketed when he refused to join the American army. I've read accounts of soldiers in third world countries at the time carrying around pictures of Ali as they fought.  I'm guessing he was popular in South East Asia.

Louis too was a worldwide sports star possibly the most well known sportsperson in the world in his time.  Ali of course went beyond sport and the line was he could be parachuted into any part of the world and he would be recognized.   My own father and father in law have told me stories of staying up at night to listen to Louis fights on the radio.

I have often wondered if Louis had much up top, he certainly wasn't a great talker.  Thinking might have dampened his killer instinct. He was one ruthless fighter.

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Post by hogey Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:51 pm

Great fighter, do think at his best he was a little too good for his own good and made decent fighters look like bums and because of the length of his reign all the other good Heavies of that era are dismissed as useless. Interestingly (for me anyway) Louis rated Sonny Liston the greatest heavyweight ever and said at his peak he thought no one himself included could have beat Sonny, the Ali fights never changed his opinion.

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Post by 3fingers Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:19 pm

When an article is that long is there any need to credit the author?

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Post by Rowley Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:42 am

As others have alluded to Louis was just what America needed at the time. With memories of Johnson's hated reign beginning to subside and the amount of talented black fighters becoming too great to ignore a black heavyweight champion was a necessary development in the sports evolution and Louis fitted the bill perfectly, he proved such a champion did not have to carry the baggage Johnson did.

However boxing tends to have as many principles or morals as the bottom line allows and lets not believe Louis' reign was completely a moral awakening on the part of the sport. In the 30's America and the world experienced the worst depression in history. Ticket sales were slumping and the tantalising glimpse into what the sport could be, delivered by Dempsey was simply not being delivered by the likes of Sharkey, Baer, Braddock and Carnera, whose novelty soon wore off.

Also the brilliant Tex Rickard was no longer around and his replacement Jimmy Johnston simply did not have Rickard's brilliance to sell the fights. Given this his rivals led by Mike Jacobs needed a fighter to launch their putsch on the sport and one has to suspect to get the keys to the heavyweight championship, and by extension the sport the fighter who could deliver thats colour was always going to be secondary behind his ability and whilst Louis may not have had the personility of an Ali or Louis he certainly had the talent.

Excellent read by the way Chris


Last edited by Rowley on Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:13 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by catchweight Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:28 am

His second fight with Schmelling is fascinating. You could make an entire film based on that fight alone. Has there ever been a sportsman under that kind of pressure. The fight was practically first blood in what would be world war 2. The entire weight of a nation on his shoulders, the president meeting him demanding a win. For a young guy in twenties dealing with that must have been enormous. And then to go out a perform like he did in such devastating fashion. Immense.

Good article, nice to read something about Louis that isnt calling him an alcoholic or writing off his chances against David Haye for a change.

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Post by Guest Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:47 am

catchweight wrote:His second fight with Schmelling is fascinating. You could make an entire film based on that fight alone. Has there ever been a sportsman under that kind of pressure. The fight was practically first blood in what would be world war 2. The entire weight of a nation on his shoulders, the president meeting him demanding a win. For a young guy in twenties dealing with that must have been enormous. And then to go out a perform like he did in such devastating fashion. Immense.

Good article, nice to read something about Louis that isnt calling him an alcoholic or writing off his chances against David Haye for a change.
There is actually an old film bio about Joe Louis. My memory of it is veeeeery hazy (ie can't remember what it's called...probably "The Joe Louis Story" but I recall there being a voice-over where Louis talks about the pain and humiliation of losing to Max and how he wanted to hurt him in the rematch)

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Post by catchweight Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:55 am

Yeah Ive seen stuff on ESPN about it and Im pretty sure they have made a low budget sort of tv movie or two about it. But its a story that could really do with the 5 star treatment. Hollywood would bastardize it though.

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Post by Rowley Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:29 am

There is a documentary kicking around on PBS on Sky called The Fight about the second Louis Schmeling fight. Worth a watch if you can catch it, is a bit old but is better for it as many long since passed historians such as Hank Kaplan are on there.

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Post by catchweight Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:35 am

Cheers I will look it up. As long as it doesnt feature the Rock as Joe Louis, driving a tank on his way to the ring to the sound of Kanye West.

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Post by hampo17 Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:12 pm

3fingers wrote:When an article is that long is there any need to credit the author?

Not quite sure what you're getting at with this comment.

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Post by ShahenshahG Fri Feb 07, 2014 12:28 pm

hampo171 wrote:
3fingers wrote:When an article is that long is there any need to credit the author?

Not quite sure what you're getting at with this comment.

Gentle joke at Chris's expense because of his tendency for long articles.

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Post by Happytravelling Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:09 pm

Great article and some great comments.

For me, Louis is the No1 ATG HW. You can argue many things about quality of opposition (as you can with any fighter) but he fought on the cusp of a step change in boxing in training, HW size and he had the longest reign and still had to win all the fights.

Its interesting to see how views change about fighters as time goes on. I'm old enough to remember that, when I was a kid in the 70's, all HW ATG lists used to have Louis top then Marciano, Walcott, Dempsey, Charles and Ali etc. behind in various orders. As time goes on and more movies are made, Ali's stock rises and the others drop, to the point Walcott and Charles are almost forgotten.

Which brings me to:

andygf wrote:I know the point of the article was not to argue his status as a ATG heavy, but I wonder if the cultural significance does not conflate  with the subject of his ability.

Not really. I think people largely ignore his impact on US society and tend to denegrate him because of a catchy strap line of "bum of the month". Where as people willing ignore Ali's duff fights and dubious views because of his catchy comments and "rebel" appeal.

Louis was a huge hero of the US black community, you have to only see footage of him in Harlem. He united, instead of divided and realised his social obligations in that regard.

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Post by hazharrison Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:17 pm

Happytravelling wrote:Great article and some great comments.

For me, Louis is the No1 ATG HW. You can argue many things about quality of opposition (as you can with any fighter) but he fought on the cusp of a step change in boxing in training, HW size and he had the longest reign and still had to win all the fights.

Its interesting to see how views change about fighters as time goes on. I'm old enough to remember that, when I was a kid in the 70's, all HW ATG lists used to have Louis top then Marciano, Walcott, Dempsey, Charles and Ali etc. behind in various orders. As time goes on and more movies are made, Ali's stock rises and the others drop, to the point Walcott and Charles are almost forgotten.

Which brings me to:

andygf wrote:I know the point of the article was not to argue his status as a ATG heavy, but I wonder if the cultural significance does not conflate  with the subject of his ability.

Not really. I think people largely ignore his impact on US society and tend to denegrate him because of a catchy strap line of "bum of the month". Where as people willing ignore Ali's duff fights and dubious views because of his catchy comments and "rebel" appeal.

Louis was a huge hero of the US black community, you have to only see footage of him in Harlem. He united, instead of divided and realised his social obligations in that regard.

Doug Fischer published his ATG top ten recently and included Charles and Walcott. It wasn't until I saw them there that I realised they might actually belong.

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Post by Happytravelling Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:39 pm

It would be interesting to compile "top 10" lists over time because it is interesting to see how "fashions" change (I know fashion is the wrong word, more contemporary views change).

Again, my memory is failing me but I seem to recollect a round table of interviews of sports writers and one of them said he believed Charles was the greatest (I keep thinking Bert Sugar, but it wasn't) and a comment was made about how few of his fights were on celuloid but he saw Charles live etc.

As for Walcott, its important to remember his age when he finally became champ and his conditioning would embarrass modern heavyweights...

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Post by hazharrison Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:41 pm

Happytravelling wrote:It would be interesting to compile "top 10" lists over time because it is interesting to see how "fashions" change (I know fashion is the wrong word, more contemporary views change).

Again, my memory is failing me but I seem to recollect a round table of interviews of sports writers and one of them said he believed Charles was the greatest  (I keep thinking Bert Sugar, but it wasn't) and a comment was made about how few of his fights were on celuloid but he saw Charles live etc.

As for Walcott, its important to remember his age when he finally became champ and his conditioning would embarrass modern heavyweights...

Big fan of him - an innovator.

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