If Ali Hadn't Had The Rub Of The Green

Had Muhammad Ali lost the following decisions (some close, a couple highly controversial) how would it have affected his legacy?:

Doug Jones 1963
Ken Norton II 1973
Jimmy Young 1976
Ken Norton III 1976
Earnie Shavers 1977

Say he'd lost them all and finished up at 51-10, would his monumental wins have kept him atop the ATG ratings at heavyweight?

Jones would be like Schmelling - Louis.........Be a learning curve and written off as an early loss by his fan-boys..

Thing is If he loses to Norton does he fight Foreman and Frazier in Manila....??

A bit like asking what would happen If Louis stayed down when Braddock hit him....

Or If Witherspoon rightfully beat Larry..

No one knows the there-after....

What we do know is he's the consensus number 1.......With Louis 2.......Holmes 4 /5..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Jones would be like Schmelling - Louis.........Be a learning curve and written off as an early loss by his fan-boys..

Thing is If he loses to Norton does he fight Foreman and Frazier in Manila....??

A bit like asking what would happen If Louis stayed down when Braddock hit him....

Or If Witherspoon rightfully beat Larry..

No one knows the there-after....

What we do know is he's the consensus number 1.......With Louis 2.......Holmes 4 /5..

Well, we know that. This is a hypothetical question. You know what those are - you litter the boards with them.

It's a bit of a stupid one........too......If you don't mind me saying..

What If Ali had been born a Woman ??.........coming soon.

Here are two...

What If Walcott hadn't have been robbed against Louis ?

What If Conn hadn't have taken liberties against Louis ??

They are better ones don't you think ? ......I'm sure any historian would agree with me !!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It's a bit of a stupid one........too......If you don't mind me saying..

What If Ali had been born a Woman ??.........coming soon.

Here are two...

What If Walcott hadn't have been robbed against Louis ?

What If Conn hadn't  took liberties against Louis ??

They are better ones don't you think ? ......I'm sure any historian would agree with me !!

I don't think it's a stupid question, no. Many observers felt Young and Norton (fight three) were flat out robbed. Others picked against Ali in the remaining three fights.

Regarding Louis: he'd have avenged the Walcott loss in emphatic fashion - does that hurt his legacy?

The Conn scenario isn't as pertinent - could apply the same logic to Cooper-Ali. The decisions above actually happened and for a good many people, one, or more, were gifts.

If one goes against him we don't know what the future holds Haz, if he loses the second Norton fight then Young and Shavers don't happen.

I tried it to tell him that..

But he might listen to you...I'm off his christmas card list..

Hammersmith harrier wrote:If one goes against him we don't know what the future holds Haz, if he loses the second Norton fight then Young and Shavers don't happen.

Say they did, though, for the sake of debate? What does it do for Norton if he takes all three? What about Young had he beaten both Foreman and Ali? Pretty interesting.

Alternatively had he not lost so many of his peak years how different could his legacy have been? Did it hinder him or did it provide him with the time to adjust his style because of his decreasing speed?

Would thing I can't stand when analysing sports is ifs, buts and maybes.

We can't stand here and go "if Wilkinson had missed that drop goal we would've bottled it and lost" - it's revisionist thinking and we can't changed what happened in the past.

Every sportsman needs an element of fortune, be it in preparation or during the event. Great sportsmen will generally always find a way to win, average sportsmen bemoan the lack of things going their way.

If ali hadn't lost his three years both Norton, Frazier would be a footnote. However tough they were for him, it was only his decline that made them from awkward into great opponents.

Frazier would have given Ali fits at any point in his career.

This isn't a "imagine Ali's leg fell off" scenario -- two of these decisions were daylight robberies. The others could easily have gone against a heavyweight that didn't hold Ali's appeal. It's a valid question.

If Ali drops the decision to Doug Jones, he almost certainly doesn't get that early crack at Liston, which comes about partly because of the fascination with his ability to win as he said he was going to and then boast about it afterwards. Ali would almost certainly have had to fight Jones again, Cooper is on the back-burner and would probably have had to find somebody else who wasn't a puncher to build a case for a title shot. That wouldn't have been against Liston, of course, because Jim Wicks and Henry himself weren't interested and the probability is that Ali doesn't get a shot against Sonny until late 65 or somewhere like that. Presumably Sonny fights Cleveland Williams again, maybe Folley and one or two of the Europeans in the interim, all of which he would be favoured to win. Does Ali's crazy man routine then freak Sonny out when they do finally meet? Who knows, but we might have ended up seeing Liston-Frazier in the late 60s, which could have been fun.

If Ali had dropped all three decisions against Norton, it wouldn't really have affected the way that we viewed Ken in retrospect. Awkward guy, who had Ali's number, just as Brimm seemed to have Robinson's, but still apt to go weak at the knees in sight of a puncher. If he'd have been given the call in their second fight, I'm not sure that anyone would have bought Foreman-Norton II, bearing in mind the execution that the first encounter had been. Ali would still have got his chance to fight George. The three other fights have similarities and a victory for any of Ali's opponents would have led to three short reigns, all likely terminated by Holmes, who beat two of them as it was.

Overall, we probably would view Ali slightly differently and the gap between him and Louis likely wouldn't be perceived to be as great as it is, but I still reckon that he'd be a consensus number one pick for greatest heavyweight.

captain carrantuohil wrote:If Ali drops the decision to Doug Jones, he almost certainly doesn't get that early crack at Liston, which comes about partly because of the fascination with his ability to win as he said he was going to and then boast about it afterwards. Ali would almost certainly have had to fight Jones again, Cooper is on the back-burner and would probably have had to find somebody else who wasn't a puncher to build a case for a title shot. That wouldn't have been against Liston, of course, because Jim Wicks and Henry himself weren't interested and the probability is that Ali doesn't get a shot against Sonny until late 65 or somewhere like that. Presumably Sonny fights Cleveland Williams again, maybe Folley and one or two of the Europeans in the interim, all of which he would be favoured to win. Does Ali's crazy man routine then freak Sonny out when they do finally meet? Who knows, but we might have ended up seeing Liston-Frazier in the late 60s, which could have been fun.

If Ali had dropped all three decisions against Norton, it wouldn't really have affected the way that we viewed Ken in retrospect. Awkward guy, who had Ali's number, just as Brimm seemed to have Robinson's, but still apt to go weak at the knees in sight of a puncher. If he'd have been given the call in their second fight, I'm not sure that anyone would have bought Foreman-Norton II, bearing in mind the execution that the first encounter had been. Ali would still have got his chance to fight George. The three other fights have similarities and a victory for any of Ali's opponents would have led to three short reigns, all likely terminated by Holmes, who beat two of them as it was.

Overall, we probably would view Ali slightly differently and the gap between him and Louis likely wouldn't be perceived to be as great as it is, but I still reckon that he'd be a consensus number one pick for greatest heavyweight.

Thanks CC. Liston vs Frazier, my oh my!

I agree he'd still be the consensus number one -- quality of competition is the thing that separates him from Louis and that wouldn't have changed necessarily. Ali benefited from some dubious decisions late in his career -- I think Norton said something along the lines of he wasn't just fighting Ali, he was fighting the sport. He was a one man money-making machine. That's part of the sport, though, various other fighters deemed larger than life benefitted in the same way.

hazharrison wrote:Frazier would have given Ali fits at any point in his career.

This isn't a "imagine Ali's leg fell off" scenario -- two of these decisions were daylight robberies. The others could easily have gone against a heavyweight that didn't hold Ali's appeal. It's a valid question.

I don't think so - Frazier is a great fighter but Ali fights propelled him up the ranks - Every time I envision a fight between Ali prior to ban and Frazier I can't help but bring to mind, the Frazier Mathis fight where the fat man held him at bay with ease for 5-6 rounds and then eventually succumbing to his own bulk and Fraziers frenzied body attack. Can't see Joe managing to beat ali though he would hurt him in the latter rounds. Just see Ali taking the bulk of the first 10 then losing the last 5 rounds 3-2. I doubt it would come close enough for Joe to be regarded with the reverence he does now

ShahenshahG wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Frazier would have given Ali fits at any point in his career.

This isn't a "imagine Ali's leg fell off" scenario -- two of these decisions were daylight robberies. The others could easily have gone against a heavyweight that didn't hold Ali's appeal. It's a valid question.

I don't think so - Frazier is a great fighter but Ali fights propelled him up the ranks - Every time I envision a fight between Ali prior to ban and Frazier I can't help but bring to mind, the Frazier Mathis fight where the fat man held him at bay with ease for 5-6 rounds and then eventually succumbing to his own bulk and Fraziers frenzied body attack. Can't see Joe managing to beat ali though he would hurt him in the latter rounds. Just see Ali taking the bulk of the first 10 then losing the last 5 rounds 3-2. I doubt it would come close enough for Joe to be regarded with the reverence he does now

 
Frazier took himself to another level for the first Ali fight, though, and I'm not sure the more nimble, lighter version of Ali could have withstood Frazier's ferocious attacks.

hazharrison wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Frazier would have given Ali fits at any point in his career.

This isn't a "imagine Ali's leg fell off" scenario -- two of these decisions were daylight robberies. The others could easily have gone against a heavyweight that didn't hold Ali's appeal. It's a valid question.

I don't think so - Frazier is a great fighter but Ali fights propelled him up the ranks - Every time I envision a fight between Ali prior to ban and Frazier I can't help but bring to mind, the Frazier Mathis fight where the fat man held him at bay with ease for 5-6 rounds and then eventually succumbing to his own bulk and Fraziers frenzied body attack. Can't see Joe managing to beat ali though he would hurt him in the latter rounds. Just see Ali taking the bulk of the first 10 then losing the last 5 rounds 3-2. I doubt it would come close enough for Joe to be regarded with the reverence he does now

 
Frazier took himself to another level for the first Ali fight, though, and I'm not sure the more nimble, lighter version of Ali could have withstood Frazier's ferocious attacks.

All of which was inspired by Ali's appalling treatment of him, something that wouldn't have transpired had Ali's career not been put on hold. Frazier was something else when he had the bit between his teeth but so was that version of Ali.

Of the decisions mentioned in the OP, the only one I think he was really lucky to get was Norton III. If he wasn't an under dog Young's performance would have been roundly ridiculed for negativity and spoiling.

If his career had somehow gone the same way but with these decisions going against him, I think he'd probably be seen as the second greatest ever based on his astounding victories but with Louis beating him on consistency. Ali would be seen as a difficult guy to beat head to head, as he appeared to rise to the occasion for big fights, but prone to off nights.

This subject of boxing has always intrigued me. If these decisions had gone against Ali, he'd still be every bit as good a fighter as he was having got the nod. However we'd rank him differently and pick against him more frequently. When a fighter's standing is based on how good they were between the ropes, we wait for three officials to tell us what we just saw.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Of the decisions mentioned in the OP, the only one I think he was really lucky to get was Norton III. If he wasn't an under dog Young's performance would have been roundly ridiculed for negativity and spoiling.

If his career had somehow gone the same way but with these decisions going against him, I think he'd probably be seen as the second greatest ever based on his astounding victories but with Louis beating him on consistency. Ali would be seen as a difficult guy to beat head to head, as he appeared to rise to the occasion for big fights, but prone to off nights.

This subject of boxing has always intrigued me. If these decisions had gone against Ali, he'd still be every bit as good a fighter as he was having got the nod. However we'd rank him differently and pick against him more frequently. When a fighter's standing is based on how good they were between the ropes, we wait for three officials to tell us what we just saw.

Good points - been a few on here after a dismal opening.

The thing that made Ali stand out was really his arrogance and the mental fortitude that came with it. He was superlative and I am sure his ego would have driven him to come back. Although, the losses early in his career may have had significant effect.

If's and and's are great to talk about but its important not to read too much into them. If he lost to Jones, would Malcom X have gone anywhere near him and would his self confidence be undermined...

Its a long time since I watched all the Ali fights. Seem to recollect spending a whole weekend watching all of them in order, one after the other. Was the Jones fight the one where he did nothing and got the nod because he was the rising star, or was Chuvalo?

He was champ when he faced Chuvalo and won fairly widely, although the relentlessness with which Chuvalo came at him did cause him to sweat. They rematched in the 70's. I haven't seen that one in full I don't think.

Actually it's been ages since I saw the Jones fight so I should probably take a look.