Barclays Premier League 13/14 Thread Part 'x'

[Duty281]

First topic message reminder :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/269695.stm

And Hoddle's ex girlfriend was this faith healer's daughter...isn't love sweet?

[mystiroakey]

Don't presume anything any more  mate!



I am shocked as to why he hasnt gone for a pay day though

[Hammersmith harrier]

I don't quite know why we didn't try selling him in January, could have got a couple of million for him i'm sure.

[Ent]

Prob would have been a bit if a backlash against a sale.

He's going to keep playing him too.

[Hammersmith harrier]

It's decisions like that I don't understand, we aren't going to get into the top four now so he might as well start building to the future straight away.

Play Mata, Januzaj, Rooney and Van Persie, give them an opportunity to build up an understanding, if it doesn't work out it doesn't cost us anything. Stop playing Vidic and give Jones, Smalling and Evans a chance to start a partnership, we have 15 games at the least to try these things out.

[CFCNick]

They aren't the same type of player but position wise they are. United need a ball winner. Not a ball mover.

i dont know if they do - to me they need a ball mover deeper like scholes etc.

there is a gap in the middle - mata is 100% attacking . Barkley could provide a good link, and unlike Mata does work back

So you want them to play 4-1-1-1-2???

They aren't the same type of player but position wise they are. United need a ball winner. Not a ball mover.

It's the whole teams job to win the ball back.

As for carrick, he had fletcher along side him yesterday and no one picked up sidwell or put any pressure on holtby.

And being isolated doesn't make you lose out on 50/50s.

I like carrick, just pointing out most of the squad is underperforming. You could only make an argument for Rooney being better than last season. Welbeck has scored much more but he's played up front more.

Who is to blame for that I don't know, but whilst the squad is inadequate in some areas they are seriously under performing this year. These are good players;

Won the league by 11 points, beat arsenal home and away, Liverpool home and away, city away, Chelsea away. Went toe to toe with mourinhos Madrid and were equal to them (largely).

Something has gone seriously wrong.

What I mean as a ball winner is a tough guy that will scare other teams. Nobody is scared of being clattered by Carrick or Fletcher.

[Ent]

It's not 1980, the hard man emptying people doesn't happen anymore.

Besides if the team doesn't press properly that type of player just gets played around.

[Stella]

A blind man can see Utd need a ball winning player with legs in midfield. If he's hard with it, then all the best.

[CFCNick]

It's not 1980, the hard man emptying people doesn't happen anymore.

Besides if the team doesn't press properly that type of player just gets played around.

They need the sort of player like Essien in his prime. Bully players like Ramires, Coutinho, Barkley, etc. Make then think twice before running at him.

[Ent]

You don't need a dedicated ball winner, you need all the players to be able to run, press together and put in a tackle.

If people think one player who can run and get stuck into tackles will solve the midfield problems they will be sorely disappointed on seeing the results of such an investment.

[Ent]

Good players aren't afraid of being bullied by anyone.

Ramires is very strong himself, he'd take anyone on.

The others would just pass it round him in isolation.

A prime essien would be great as he could do everything, te rest of the side needs to step up too- one player Isn't going to stop this malaise.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Heard we and QPR were interested in Hoolahan so can't hurt if they're signing Morrison. He looked poor against us tbh, plenty of talent but awful work ethic

Ive only heard QPR linked to Wes, and its doubtful we'll let him leave I reckon

[Stella]

You don't need a dedicated ball winner, you need all the players to be able to run, press together and put in a tackle.

If people think one player who can run and get stuck into tackles will solve the midfield problems they will be sorely disappointed on seeing the results of such an investment.

This magical ball winner won't solve all your problems, but Utd need one more than a Mata at the moment. Trouble is, who? Utd with a 1999 Roy Keane would be top four.

[Ent]

As keane would get more out if those around him.

He on his own performance wise wouldn't get us there.

An individual might make a difference if they are an inspirational leader capable of getting the other players around him to perform better. Those are once in a generation players though.

[Stella]

These aren't exactly once in a generation.

Essien (2005)
Toure
Viera (Keane era)
Hell, even Ince.

Must be someone around?

[Ent]

Plus keane wasn't just a ball winner, he was an all round great player.

[Ent]

The dressing room hated ince, he was no inspirational leader who got more out of his team mates.

I wouldn't say essien or toure did or do that either.

You could make an argument for vieria, before that it would be Robson.

I saw Roy keane come on as a sub in a game united were struggling in (1 goal lead), as soon as he came on he walked 20 yards up the pitch from where the midfield was camped. They all walked up and the defense came up too. We coasted the rest of the game, he hadn't even touched the ball.

That sort of personality and ability to extract more from team mates doesn't come along very often.

[Stella]

Ince, Toure, and Essien may not have been/are inspirational leaders but they get the ball back in midfield, and drive forward. These type of players are like air...............essential.

[Ent]

They don't do it on their own though.

Plus they were all very good footballers and not just ball winners.

Yes a player of that quality would improve the team, but let's not kid ourselves that they would be the solution to all the problems.

[Liam]

Vidal can be our Keane type player. I'd look to bring in Kroos or for me, someone i've admired for a while who is for me, a perfect replacement for the Scholes role, Moutinho. Yes he's at big spending Monaco and would be difficult to get him but would love to see us splash the cash for him and Vidal. If not him, then Kroos will do nicely. I would also use Kagawa in a deal to bring Hummels to utd, great bargaining tool really. Also need a wide man, a left back (Shaw) and we'll be fine.

De Gea

Rafael Hummels Jones/Evans Shaw

Moutinho/Kroos Vidal/Gundogen

Mata Rooney Januzaj

RVP

[Ent]

Yeah it's not football manager, plus thinkhing moutinho would be more comfortable in a more advanced role.

[Hammersmith harrier]

People look at Keane and Vieira and get the wrong impression of what they bring to a team. Ent is right Keanes main quality for us was his ability to drag the team out of a mess and make his team mates do the same, his ball winning prowess wasn't the be all and end all.

[Stella]

They don't do it on their own though.

Plus they were all very good footballers and not just ball winners.

Yes a player of that quality would improve the team, but let's not kid ourselves that they would be the solution to all the problems.

Never said the solution, but a massive help. Even a Makele (get the ball, get rid) would help. Utd are far to soft and slow in midfield.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Roy Keane was a god amongst men in terms of central midfield generals.

Don't trust a forum Mysti, most normal people won't shout on their teams forums

[Stella]

People look at Keane and Vieira and get the wrong impression of what they bring to a team. Ent is right Keanes main quality for us was his ability to drag the team out of a mess and make his team mates do the same, his ball winning prowess wasn't the be all and end all.

Nevr said it was, just Keane was a decent example. Makele, who I just mentioned, didn't do much with the ball, but could read the game and get the ball back.

[Ent]

People look at Keane and Vieira and get the wrong impression of what they bring to a team. Ent is right Keanes main quality for us was his ability to drag the team out of a mess and make his team mates do the same, his ball winning prowess wasn't the be all and end all.

People remember him as a guy in his mid 30s with a bad hip sitting back and not at his pomp.

All action box to box midfield general who demanded and got the best from his team mates. What a player.

[Ent]

We are too slow and lack dynamism but that is a problem with half te team.

I don't think a clogger who can't do much with the ball would help that much.

[Stella]

People look at Keane and Vieira and get the wrong impression of what they bring to a team. Ent is right Keanes main quality for us was his ability to drag the team out of a mess and make his team mates do the same, his ball winning prowess wasn't the be all and end all.

People remember him as a guy in his mid 30s with a bad hip sitting back and not at his pomp.

All action box to box midfield general who demanded and got the best from his team mates. What a player.

A 2005 Keane would walk into your midfield. He was though a fantastic player. A mate of mine is a massive Liverpool fan but Keane is still one of his favourite players. Says a lot, as he despises Utd.

[Ent]

2005?

Don't think so, that's the year he was struggling with injuries and disrupting the young players. He was retired 6 months later.

[Stella]

2005?

Don't think so, that's the year he was struggling with injuries and disrupting the young players. He was retired 6 months later.

That was my point. Even Keane at his lowest would still do a job that needs doing in this team.

[Hammersmith harrier]

So we'd have to revert to a three man midfield then Stella because by that point he had completely lost his legs, ironically it was Fletcher who bore the brunt of his outburst that did all his running.

[owen10ozzy]

Miralem Pjanic would be perfect at Utd, anyone who watches Italian football will know how good he is & he is the type of player Utd need...I'm not sure you need an out & out box to box player.

Modern day teams usually take up two stances - Either you have a young-ish 24-27 year old playing box to box..doing the work of two people...or you play with a DM who sits and mops up anything in the front of the back 4...this then sees someone take up the NO 10 role.

The problem with this is you DM has to be creative in his ball movement in order to link the play...if he isn't then you add another midfielder who can do that. Carrick hasn't the range of passing the likes of Xavi have. That's the missing link for me...someone to control the game between Carrick & Mata/Rooney...Miralem Pjanic/Vidal/Pogba would be perfect but I don't see the latter two leaving Juventus.

I said on a podcast that I could see Moyes implementing a system similar to Everton where the emphasis is on one of his full backs to push up and the winger on that side to cut in....i.e. Baines pushed up on the left with Miralles/Pienaar (whoever was playing left) cutting in.

Vidic needs to be dropped now; as has been said he's leaving and the season is a bit of a write off...might as well start forging that CB partnership off Jones/Evans/Smalling (whichever 2) now.

In the summer Utd need a CM...a young DM ready to replace Carrick in two years or so time...a RM...LB & RB.

Something along the lines of:

CM - Miralem Pjanic/Vidal/Pogba/Strootman/Claudio Marchisio
DM - Yann M'Vila, Ilkay Gundogan, Schneiderlin,
RB - Daniel Carvajal, Lukasz Piszczek, Richards, Coleman
LB - Luke Shaw, De Sciglio

I've included Piszcek/Richards as a bit of experience wouldn't go a miss.

That would leave a potential team of:

De Gea

Richards, Jones, Smalling, Shaw

Carrick/Gundogan

Pjanic

Mata Rooney Januzaj

Van Persie

Depending on which full back you play more offensively the onus is then on playing Mata that side but telling him to cut in consistently. This brings defenders inside creating space for Shaw/Richards to get forward.

Or if Rooney goes then you use the £25 million odd to bring in a left/right midfielder :

Stephan El Shaarawy, Lavezzi, Gerard Deulofeu, Jakub Blaszczykowskie...but to name a few.

[Stella]

So we'd have to revert to a three man midfield then Stella because by that point he had completely lost his legs, ironically it was Fletcher who bore the brunt of his outburst that did all his running.

Yes, he was on his last legs. I liked Fletcher pre-injury. Can he FULLY recover and be this 'ball winner' you need?

[mystiroakey]

"So you want them to play 4-1-1-1-2???"


ermm what?

[owen10ozzy]

"So you want them to play 4-1-1-1-2???"


ermm what?

Is that to me?!

If so...no! That's not actually how they would line up is it!?

It would be a 4-2-3-1 ....Carrick & Pjanic/Vidal or whoever would play CM roles but one would do DM duties the other would link the space between attack and defence.

[mystiroakey]

Football has moved on lads.

Ball winners are needed0- yes

But what are ball winners these days!

Are they hard attacking old school brit/irish players or are they fit , strong, quick interceptors!

Players that can read a game that counter visionary passing. 

do you know who the top players are that could possibly do alot at the top clubs!

 jedanick,Scheneiderli flamini  and mulumba.(and without flamini arsernal arent the same team)

Carrick was leading this stat first ten games- now he has lost his form..

[mystiroakey]

"So you want them to play 4-1-1-1-2???"


ermm what?

Is that to me?!

If so...no! That's not actually how they would line up is it!?

It would be a 4-2-3-1 ....Carrick & Pjanic/Vidal or whoever would play CM roles but one would do DM duties the other would link the space between attack and defence.

no its not about you dude.. Its between me and CFC- he assumed alot with my post.

[owen10ozzy]

Football has moved on lads.

Ball winners are needed0- yes

But what are ball winners these days!

Are they hard attacking old school brit/irish players or are they fit , strong, quick interceptors!

Players that can read a game that counter visionary passing. 

do you know who the top players are that could possibly do alot at the top clubs!

 jedanick, flamini  and mulumba.

Carrick was leading this stat first ten games- now he has lost his form..

Good Point - that role in the top clubs & on the continent has become more than just putting yourself about now. With the introduction of inverted wingers over traditional Right Midfielders and a deep 'No 10' teams now need someone linking the play.

As I said that either means you play a defensive Midfielder capable of sweeping up in front of the front 4 & playing the ball out...or you play a ball winning midfielder with a player in front who can sit in the center of the pitch putting passes into the number 10/wide men (Pirlo for Italy).

Carrick doesn't have the vision or ability to be the link man ...his duty is to intercept & keep the ball ticking over whilst Utd push on or regroup...therefore Utd either need to bring in a DM who can do that job and be the link man (i.e. Gundogan) or they bring in CM to fill the void & create the link i.e. Vidal/Pogba/Pjanic

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Micah Richards. Rafael is a mile better than Richards. The Richards that showed potential needs some serious game time. He needs to do what Glen Johnson did, go to a club (at that time Portsmouth) that'll give him game time and teach him some lessons.

Granted, Glen since forgot the best parts of defending. Micah Richards needs to go to a team managed by someone like Allardyce or Pulis, learn how to defend and then break out with the natural talent.

I think Rafael is generally underrated on this board. Hes a good defender, prone to losing his cool (still young remember), and probably a better weapon going forward than Nani and Valencia.

[owen10ozzy]

I think Richards has the makings to be a better defender than Rafael. I get that he lacks playing time but he was sensational in City's title winning season under Mancini where he also had the joint highest assists of any defender in the league.

Rafael is someone who strikes me as a player who lacks the temperament and I don't think this will change...just comes across as that type of person. I also am not as convinced by his defensive abilities as you seem Ziggler...he can be caught out of position but has the pace to correct his mistakes...once that goes (age or be it injury) he will struggle. Lest we forget that Richards is probably one of the quickest full backs in the league also.

Just think Richards is a better all around player and much more physically imposing...something Utd lack across the park and with the departure of Vidic come the summer they are going to lack physically strong players.

That being said...if you can get Lukasz Pisczek then I would definitely go for him!

[Ent]

Richards is a terrible footballer, just an athlete and a specimen. No thanks.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Richards is a terrible right back, he's quick and strong that's it. Rafael like everyone else is having a bad season, last season he was the second best right back in the league after Zabaleta.

[Guest]

That would leave a potential team of:

De Gea

Richards, Jones, Smalling, Shaw

Carrick/Gundogan

Pjanic

Mata Rooney Januzaj

Van Persie

Richards to United, terrible idea. Injury prone & liability defensively. Prone to mistakes. City wouldn't sell anyway to a rival
Shaw to United is not going to happen in my opinion. As soon as United make the bid, Chelsea & City will be on him like a tramp on chips to secure his long term services. Chelsea need to replace Cole, City need to replace Clichy. United would get financially out muscled.
Gundogan to United would be difficult, especially as Madrid or Barcelona or some other top european club will be wanting him. No Champions League football will be the determining factor for a player who's already shone on that stage.
Pjanic to United, sounds good but that's what PSG thought too & they got warned off with a £30m+ price tage. Instead they went for Cabaye. Difficult to prize a key asset out of Roma, just look at De Rossi.

Your front four players keep getting mentioned but I just don't see that formation or that line up working against good to world class teams. Football isn't just about offensively minded players or putting them on paper & going 'wow' they look good. Januzaj & Mata offer little defensive cover, especially to United's full backs. Football has moved on & the time has come for wide attacking players to be built like powerhouses & have engines that last all day. Bayern understand it with Robben/Ribery & Mourinho understands it with Willian & Hazard & hence the removal of Mata out of Chelsea. You can't really even accommodate 'luxury' players now at the top level. I just don't see Januzaj & Mata being as effective as the names I've mentioned & it will cost United dearly as a defensive unit. I'm sure offensively they will gel together over time & be effective against average sides, however, players like Welbeck would be more effective in those wider roles generally.

[CFCNick]

"So you want them to play 4-1-1-1-2???"


ermm what?

Is that to me?!

If so...no! That's not actually how they would line up is it!?

It would be a 4-2-3-1 ....Carrick & Pjanic/Vidal or whoever would play CM roles but one would do DM duties the other would link the space between attack and defence.

no its not about you dude.. Its between me and CFC- he assumed alot with my post.

It was the Mata/Barkley discussion. The way mysti was going on about the different depths of midfield made it sound like he'd play a 1-1-1 midfield with a holding player behind a ball mover behind a number 10, with a striker or two ahead of the number 10.

[mystiroakey]

Micah Richards. Rafael is a mile better than Richards. The Richards that showed potential needs some serious game time. He needs to do what Glen Johnson did, go to a club (at that time Portsmouth) that'll give him game time and teach him some lessons.

Granted, Glen since forgot the best parts of defending. Micah Richards needs to go to a team managed by someone like Allardyce or Pulis, learn how to defend and then break out with the natural talent.

I think Rafael is generally underrated on this board. Hes a good defender, prone to losing his cool (still young remember), and probably a better weapon going forward than Nani and Valencia.

He has at the very least tried!! I will give him that. But he has been reckless.

But he is off by the sounds from the rumour mill

[GSC]

Its a shame Richardson had injury problems. Would've had him ahead of Rafael anyday.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

If Rafael loses his pace? At his age? If he loses his pace with age then you've got about 7 good years out of him. And I don't really mind a young player losing his cool occasionally, it happens in development. One red card a year from a full back isnt bad. Gary Neville is arguably the best right back of the Premiership era, he lost his nut a couple times a year.

Richards has the defensive nous of Titus Bramble. He still has potential, but he needs some proper coaching and experience defending in a team that does it more than once every ten minutes.

[NickisBHAFC]

I think Micah Richards is a fantastic player and i would class him as the best RB England has. But his attitude just stinks and for that reason alone shouldn't be considered for selection. 

Rafael is also a lot better than him, if were comparing the 2. I agree with Chris, Rafael is very underrated on here.

[Duty281]

Micah Richards is not, and never will be, a top class right-back.

He's 25 now; the chance to learn and fulfil whatever potential he may have had at some point has well and truly evaporated.

[mystiroakey]

Johnson is fine for England..

We just have to suck it up and hope he is fit. He offers something at least.

[NickisBHAFC]

Yeah if Johnson is injured, were pretty much screwed at right back.

[Sponsored content]