England vs Ireland

First topic message reminder :

Could be game of the six nations what do you think?

I dont really think you can class losing as a tactic

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

Gibson wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:All I'm going to say it that I have a lot of faith in Joe Schmidt's game plan and that I think for England to beat us I think they will have to put in something very special in every area of the pitch.  I'm really starting to see Schmidt as a strategic and tactical genius.  

And that's   exactly what will win it for us. He is light years ahead of the rest in the NH. As is Sexton at 10. The two main reasons why we will beat England. And beat them well.

Believe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1fOZjiDaw4

Yup. Its Chas an Dave v Rory. Good call Port.
Save this for after the game bro.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33Jaodra7AY

P.S. It was good to see you at Tigers v Ulster mate.

Gotta be honest I'd be more surprised if Ireland win than if England lose.

Jhamer25 wrote:Well I think it has to be Ireland hands down in my view. yes it's a home match to England but Ireland have been not far from unbeatable in their first two games.
England haven;t shown anything to proves why they would be considered favorite in this game. Yes they one by a pretty large margin yesterday but it could and should have been bigger, they haven't been as clinical as Ireland.
Ireland will have the advantage at scrum time with Healey against a pretty weak Cole atm and their pack will give them the platform they need. It's just whether Ross decides to keep the scrum up or not.
England have been great at the breakdown in the past but haven't; be at their best their in the first two games and Ireland have been amazing. It might be close but Ireland are definitely favorites to win by a 10 point margin I think.
God help us against the french as well, they will be looking to kick on and make it a showdown between them and Ireland.

That's from a neutral perspective as well

Like last time ?
http://m.youtube.com/#/results?q=manshaming%20ireland%202012&search_sort=relevance&search_type=search_all&uploaded=&sm=

Wales will beat France, definitely. France are very unimpressive. They are getting through entirely through flashes of individual brilliance with no coherence at all. I would say unless France significantly improve Ireland and Wales are both very capable of beating them home or away.

England slipping up against France was just a massive, massive result in the context of the championship because there is no way they should have let that French team beat them. No way- just got caught out by a big start and a big finish but for the middle seventy minutes they exposed a lot of the French deficiencies.

You're never safe against them when they are within a score because they have game breakers in the forwards and backs but thats about all they have.

wales are going to lose to france. they were rubbish vs italy, dominated by a clinical and smart ireland, and i just dont see how wales are going to surprise anyone.

france have some really dangerous players all over the park.

wales is a rugby nation at war with itself. to think the national team will not be impacted is fantasy.

france are getting stronger. i think they surprised themselves against england. putting 30 points on italy was no mean feat.

i stick to my prediction several weeks ago of wales coming 4th with only 2 wins.

Both sets of half backs have been good. Neither backs have set the world alight at all though. When Ireland were going through their run of wins against England it was because they had classier backs. They just had to live with the English physicality and their backs would win it for them. I think England will win by a score because, as always, have the most powerful pack but we no longer have an edge in the backline.

But I have plenty of hope, despite my prediction. Ireland's pack are proving to be technically very skilled. They demolished the Welsh pack without actually physically beating them up but by outclassing them at rucks, mauls and lineouts. They were even trying to sidestep their opponents rather than running straight into them. I liked that.

It'll be interesting to see what genius tactical schemes Saint Joe cooks up for the game. There are reports that he's already locked himself in his room and can be heard cackling regularly.

Agree with Notch. Players like Fofana and Picamoles and Nyanga and so on are individually brilliant and can really hurt you. But there is no coherence at all in that French team. England would have won that game 9 times out of 10.

i think you are both overestimating wales and underestimating france.

which obviously means...

Nobody is more frightened of the French rugby team than us quins. Nobody.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Agree with Notch. Players like Fofana and Picamoles and Nyanga and so on are individually brilliant and can really hurt you. But there is no coherence at all in that French team. England would have won that game 9 times out of 10.

Glorious Empire wrote:Ive watched that game back 10 times and France won every time

Youd think that Wales would beat Aus once if they played them 10 times, apparently that isnt the case though.


Both France and England look very good when they get going. The problem is theyve both had bad habits of switching off both in the last two games and over the 12 previous months.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Agree with Notch. Players like Fofana and Picamoles and Nyanga and so on are individually brilliant and can really hurt you. But there is no coherence at all in that French team. England would have won that game 9 times out of 10.

Yep. To play away to France give away 2 powder puff tries and be 3-16 down and then to think that was a game that we should have won says it all. Fickou's try was great. Nyanga was terrific and the 2 french props decent but the only other thing they did was make sure they scored those 2 dumb tries. Today Fofana showed why he is rated so highly. But France seemed to get away with murder at the breakdown and had the Italian kicker been any good the result could have been a lot closer.

I like Lancaster. Like what he has done to England. On and off the field. Respect.

And I think England are building nicely towards 2015. As are Ireland now.  Bragging rights start here.

Its going to be brutal. I don't expect an open game. It will be close but  I believe we will win it the last 20 mins.

Why? Our 2nd-string front row are far more dynamic then our 1st. We have a hooker who thinks hes a centre and two powerful young Props who will love pitting themselves v a tiring England. One of them may even start. Moore.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Agree with Notch. Players like Fofana and Picamoles and Nyanga and so on are individually brilliant and can really hurt you. But there is no coherence at all in that French team. England would have won that game 9 times out of 10.

Er..but they didnt the 1 out of 10 (although as Gloriousempire said he watched the replay 10 times and France won all ten of them   ).

Regardless based on the last two games for Ireland if England turn up and just strangle the Irish pack as they did last year they will win unless Joe has some rabbits up his sleeve.

Gibson wrote:I like Lancaster. Like what he has done to England. On and off the field. Respect.

And I think England are building nicely towards 2015. As are Ireland now.  Bragging rights start here.

Its going to be brutal. I don't expect an open game. It will be close but  I believe we will win it the last 20 mins.

Why? Our 2nd-string front row are far more dynamic then our 1st. We have a hooker who thinks hes a centre and two powerful young Props who will love pitting themselves v a tiring England. One of them may even start. Moore.

England's replacement front row: Vunipola, Youngs, Thomas, isn't exactly lacking in dynamism

Jhamer25 wrote:DaveM,
Last year I thought Englands work at the breadown was like no other teams.  They constantly put pressure at the break down which gave their opposition slow  ball and was just a nightmare to defend against. The autumn especially, they were flawless.  The like of Hartley, cole,launchbery, Wood and billy were constantly putting pressure on opposition but I haven't seen that in their first two games.
I'm not saying ireland will have the advantage here but its an area where they should definitely look at. I think healey can do a job in cole but mike ross is just aweful because he collapses under pressure after the hit (like yesterday). If he can stay up then Healey will have a good chance against Cole
England's line out has been there main strength in the first two games and will be evenly matched.

I haven't got the stats, but England won the breakdown in both games. They key thing is England are generating good quality ball, which is probably a big part of the reason Care has just had two of the best games of his career.

I actually thought we struggled to get quick ball against Scotland for much of the game. Not sure in what proportions that was Scotland playing well, us not getting there quick enough or Garces just letting the defending side do whatever they like, but we'll need to be a bit sharper there against Ireland.

I thought the ball was generally available for Care when he arrived at the ruck, which is what I'd call quick ball.

Gives me another excuse to watch it again, but I just didn't think it was.

scotland interfered terribly at the breakdown. not rolling away, hands in ruck, etc, etc. but the ref let it go and so they kept doing it.

actually thought england did pretty well all things considered. cant remember a ruck where a scot wasnt lying on players to stop them getting shoved back.

had no impact on the end result, but its a bit concerning that the breakdown can be refereed that differently between this french ref, and lets say your average S15 ref. the refs should be aiming for consistency. it shouldnt be a requirement for teams to adapt quite so much to whichever ref is on deck

quinsforever wrote:scotland interfered terribly at the breakdown. not rolling away, hands in ruck, etc, etc. but the ref let it go and so they kept doing it.

actually thought england did pretty well all things considered. cant remember a ruck where a scot wasnt lying on players to stop them getting shoved back.

had no impact on the end result, but its a bit concerning that the breakdown can be refereed that differently between this french ref, and lets say your average S15 ref. the refs should be aiming for consistency. it shouldnt be a requirement for teams to adapt quite so much to whichever ref is on deck

Good post. Its true. As it stands, a massive part of the game is reading the refs take on the breakdown and at the scrum. The battle to win him over. Alter his perception to your gain.  Be sneakier, faster. Or dominate at both. But failing that, it can become a lottery. I agree. That shouldn't be.

England have greater world ambitions than any of the other teams in the Six Nations, except maybe France of course.

Performance is more important than the result in my view. There's something bigger around the corner for England, and every game is just a stepping stone, a warm-up if you will, to that grander prize.

That said, England should be winning this game. Ireland don't have the explosive power in the backs to truly trouble an inexperienced English back division. Sexton is a fantastic player, no doubts, but he's not going to beat England single-handedly.

As for the battle up front - England have the edge. The line-out is working very, very well - as long as Hartley's on the pitch! Scrum? Solid. Breakdown? Intense. Let us not forget, also, that England have held a clear advantage over Ireland in the forwards for the last two games.

The forwards are where England are clicking; the backs are where England's confidence is growing.

England by 12 - I don't forsee England having a massive struggle in this one.

Care is some player now. Huge influence on this English side and their hopes.

He's stopped acting like two halves of an eejit and has moved on up.

Lancaster again. No messin.

Duty281 wrote:England have greater world ambitions than any of the other teams in the Six Nations, except maybe France of course.

Performance is more important than the result in my view. There's something bigger around the corner for England, and every game is just a stepping stone, a warm-up if you will, to that grander prize.

That said, England should be winning this game. Ireland don't have the explosive power in the backs to truly trouble an inexperienced English back division. Sexton is a fantastic player, no doubts, but he's not going to beat England single-handedly.

As for the battle up front - England have the edge. The line-out is working very, very well - as long as Hartley's on the pitch! Scrum? Solid. Breakdown? Intense. Let us not forget, also, that England have held a clear advantage over Ireland in the forwards for the last two games.

The forwards are where England are clicking; the backs are where England's confidence is growing.

England by 12 - I don't forsee England having a massive struggle in this one.

Ja. Roysh. I think they do actually... Bless.

DaveM wrote:

Gibson wrote:I like Lancaster. Like what he has done to England. On and off the field. Respect.

And I think England are building nicely towards 2015. As are Ireland now.  Bragging rights start here.

Its going to be brutal. I don't expect an open game. It will be close but  I believe we will win it the last 20 mins.

Why? Our 2nd-string front row are far more dynamic then our 1st. We have a hooker who thinks hes a centre and two powerful young Props who will love pitting themselves v a tiring England. One of them may even start. Moore.

England's replacement front row: Vunipola, Youngs, Thomas, isn't exactly lacking in dynamism

Without Davey Wilson there it's lacking a bit of set piece solidity though. Especially pertinent given how big the breakdown battle will be against Ireland and how integral Cole should be to countering that. If Cole tires his set piece work will naturally suffer (as it does for all props).

Whilst I'd say Healy's carrying is well ahead of the other front players on either side I'd also Cole's breakdown work is a notch above as well. That said Best, Hartley and Youngs in the hookers aren't exactly weak at the breakdown, plus Healy and Marler really throw their weight into rucks as well. Some cracking battles shaping up across the pitch!

Nice post Carlos.  In my opinion, Best is the breakdown master of that lot. Its his greatest strength. Healy is just a young beast who's going to get beastier as he matures.  

Personally I'd argue Cole's work rate is slightly higher than Best's. That said there is very little in it between them as they're two of the most proficient front rows at the breakdown in the game.

Youngs clears a ruck about as efficiently as anyone I've seen as well. Not in the same bracket when it comes to pilfering as Best or Cole, but for flying into contact at a great body angle and smashing players out the way there are few better.

Genuinely can't wait for the game as it could be the rare modern occasion of an international game where one pack doesn't get the sort of domination up front that decides the match outright. That should hopefully facilitate a real contest for the backs on either side to get a chance to shine.

Notch wrote:England are the only team to have won a game away from home. Given it's Twickenham, they have had a considerably better record than us recently, and it's win or bust for them they surely have to be favourites?

We are the only team to have played Scotland or Italy away, to be fair.

PaddyPower have us as 1/2 favourites, with Ireland 13/8, but those are largely determined by gambling trends than any actual clever measure of probability of course.

Aah the English. The bloody English and their logic. Twill be epic sir.   

Sexton will have a huge influence on this game. As will Care. I think its fairly even up front and in the packs as a whole. Just think our man Plumtree will be the hidden success of this 6-N. He has us mauling with power, cohesion and intelligence. Has the scrum technically spot on. And our lineout, with Best, Toner, (Tuohy was excellent),  POC and POM, is a serious weapon now. Our breakdown work is like watching hard-porn. The backrow is beautifully balanced now. And its only going to improve as it plays more as a unit.

Schmidt picked Plumtree out of a host of possibilities. He is a very talented man who was let go from his last gig, dahn souff. Large point to prove. This all helps.

thomh wrote:

Notch wrote:England are the only team to have won a game away from home. Given it's Twickenham, they have had a considerably better record than us recently, and it's win or bust for them they surely have to be favourites?

We are the only team to have played Scotland or Italy away, to be fair.

PaddyPower have us as 1/2 favourites, with Ireland 13/8, but those are largely determined by gambling trends than any actual clever measure of probability of course.

I just love it when England are favourites.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DINPoJWOXw4

I have to say the protestations that England should have beaten France amuse me greatly. France always looked dangerous and looked like scoring, England never looked safe.

England are playing well in a very structured manner and simply could not cope with the unstructured French attack. I agree they could have won the game but they didn't, they were outplayed by the more dangerous team.

Ireland look a complete side playing with confidence and tactically astute. ~Sexton is by far the form 10 in the NH - no one else comes close. Farrell will have to play better than we have ever seen him do to have an effect on the match altho it is set up for him to do so and enghland despite playing in a very structured way are improving match by match.

Ireland will win IMO simply because they are the finished article - experienced players playing as a team with tactics they believe in. England will be a better team eventually but I don't think this year.

We will see - should be a good game

Are you still neutral TJ?

Oh and worth remembering that England have just played on the two worst pitches in the tournament and their attack still functioned well (at points).

It'll be interesting to see how the 50/50 pitch improves them still.

Think the break is coming at a perfect time for Ireland, get a large squad together this week, send a number of the benchers from last week plus a host of lads returning from injury back to their provinces and tell them to tear up trees.

Correct me if I’ve missed anyone here but isn’t it a possibility that we could have Zebo, Reddan, Fitzgerald, Earls, Ryan and Bowe all coming into contention now?

I know Ruddock and Strauss didn’t travel to Italy yesterday but heard nothing about an injury so I’d assume they were on standby in case of an injury in the Irish squad.

I think time always suits Schmidt, he’s not a coach that relies purely on emotion and passion to win a game, he’s a details man, and the more time he has with the team, analysing the minutia of the opposition the better prepared we’re going to be.

The gameplan against Wales was limited, but it worked, the same gameplan will not work against England, I think we’ll have to look to open them up a bit more, Joe’s got a history of spotting a weakness in an opposing defense and devising a simple first phase move to open it up, Healy’s try v Clermont in 2012, 2 or 3 of the tries against SF in the Amlin final, Jennings v Ulster in the league final etc. all examples of the players executing on what they’ve studied before the game.

yappysnap wrote:Are you still neutral TJ?

Yup

Just gutted we have the weeks break now! Should be a cracker of a match and for the first time in a long time I'm actually excited when our backs get the ball.

TJ wrote:I have to say the protestations that England should have beaten France amuse me greatly.  France always looked dangerous and looked like scoring, England never looked safe.

England are playing well in a very structured manner and simply could not cope with the unstructured French attack.  I agree they could have won the game but they didn't, they were outplayed by the more dangerous team.

Ireland look a complete side playing with confidence and tactically astute.  ~Sexton is by far the form 10 in the NH - no one else comes close.  Farrell will have to play better than we have ever seen him do to have an effect on the match altho it is set up for him to do so and enghland despite playing in a very structured way are improving match by match.

Ireland will win IMO simply because they are the finished article - experienced players playing as a team with tactics they believe in.  England will be a better team eventually but I don't think this year.

We will see - should be a good game

England couldnt cope with two bounces of the ball. They then couldnt cope with some excellent work by Nyanga and a seriously rapid new center in the form of Fickou when pretty much any England back with any pace was off the pitch 2 minutes before the end of the match. France did play a lot better than last year but they did not trouble us much for the rest of the time.

I just looked at the stats. Meters run with the ball. France 460 vs England 645. England had 59% of the possession and 63% of the territory. Other stats even except for 3 - scrums (2 lost for England) , penalty count 4 to 8 against England and of course the one that matters most - the score board.

Lostinwales - its just opinions of course but to me France always looked dangerous in a way England did not. We often see games in which the losing side has more of the ball and territory - its what you do with it that counts. France to me always looked like scoring tries and had the pace to do so.

A sore lesson for england and one they will learn from and be better for

TJ wrote:Lostinwales - its just opinions of course but to me France always looked dangerous in a way England did not.  We often see games in which the losing side has more of the ball and territory - its what you do with it that counts.  France to me always looked like scoring tries and had the pace to do so.

A sore lesson for england and one they will learn from and be better for

I think I was watching a different game as well. France on the whole looked pretty poor with ball in hand. Neither of their centres got going and they got 2 tries from pretty lucky bounces. Hardly undid England with their slick passing, just one of the things about playing a sport with a funny shaped ball!

Massive game coming up for both sides.

I really struggle to see anything other than a home win. England look very strong and Twickenham has become a bit of a fortress.

Irelands first 2 wins have been built heavily on the quality of out breakdown play but even more so the line out and driving maul. The latter won't be as effective against England so we will need to have something else up our sleeves...knowing Schmidt he will have though.

I think he'll do a Leinster and send out a side to keep the score down in the first half.

If we can keep it tight, with the points difference we've accrued so far and Italy at home we can go to Paris with a strong chance of winning the title, even if we lose here.

Really excited about the next few weeks with 4 teams still in the hunt. I'm really happy with the position we are in and the performances so far though.

It's going to be one of those games rodders where we all think our team can win but you've got one eye on what the other team can do to you!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

TJ wrote:Lostinwales - its just opinions of course but to me France always looked dangerous in a way England did not.  We often see games in which the losing side has more of the ball and territory - its what you do with it that counts.  France to me always looked like scoring tries and had the pace to do so.

A sore lesson for england and one they will learn from and be better for

I think I was watching a different game as well. France on the whole looked pretty poor with ball in hand. Neither of their centres got going and they got 2 tries from pretty lucky bounces. Hardly undid England with their slick passing, just one of the things about playing a sport with a funny shaped ball!

I'll see if I can find a recording to watch it again. It certainly was my impression at the time that France looked the more likely to score

Well you know there's nothing random with Schmidt, you know he'll know England's game inside out and the team and tactics will be designed accordingly.

Sometimes that isn't enough to win but it gives you the confidence that he's going to give us the best chance.

The other difference with Schmidt and Kidney is that under Deccie it was very much one game at a time. I think Joe is approaching this as a series of games with the idea of accruing as many points as possible at the end, a bit like a HEC pool.

Although he'll be very focused in winning this I think he will already have a strategy for the last 2 games and be very aware of the big picture.

The France game is going to be the title decider.

It's much easier to start off your 6 nations campaign with two matches at home than two away.

Especially when the first match is vs the wooden spoon favourites at home.

Ireland have obviously exploited home comforts well. As rodders says - Twickenham is a tough place to go.

England should win at Twickenham.

How come ME-109 is allowed to get away with his wumming Notch?

I find his talk offensive seeing as its bordering on being racist.

By allowing these comments to stay V2 is showing double standards when people are banned for nothing more than a bit of ott banter.

Have you reported him? I have to say I thought he got close to the line but not over it.

thomh wrote:I actually thought we struggled to get quick ball against Scotland for much of the game. Not sure in what proportions that was Scotland playing well, us not getting there quick enough or Garces just letting the defending side do whatever they like, but we'll need to be a bit sharper there against Ireland.

Garcia was very lenient at the ruck - however Scotland played to this as you have to. England will have to be a lot sharper against Ireland as Ireland outplayed both Scotland and Wales at the breakdown

[quote="No 7&1/2"]

TJ wrote:Lostinwales - its just opinions of course but to me France always looked dangerous in a way England did not.  We often see games in which the losing side has more of the ball and territory - its what you do with it that counts.  France to me always looked like scoring tries and had the pace to do so.

A sore lesson for england and one they will learn from and be better for

I think I was watching a different game as well. France on the whole looked pretty poor with ball in hand. Neither of their centres got going and they got 2 tries from pretty lucky bounces. Hardly undid England with their slick passing, just one of the things about playing a sport with a funny shaped ball![/quote]

I think we are all tainted by the 'dangerous France' myth from past ages. As an England fan I can 'feel' the sense of French danger (old memories) rather than see concrete evidence of it before my eyes. But France took their bounces well, and of course they won the game on the scoreboard. Dazzled in brief spurts, but hardly threatened consistently.

Someone else has already reported one of his comments, Notch seems to be aware of it!

I also find his user name offensive seeing as it is a Nazi plane from WW2, but that might just be me putting 2 and 2 together.

beshocked wrote:
Ireland have obviously exploited home comforts well. As rodders says - Twickenham is a tough place to go.

Yes exactly but it's this ruthlessness that Ireland haven't been good at in the past. To have only conceded 9 points and score 50+ points over those 2 games puts us in a really good position. If we can do a similar number against Italy, and not taking anything for granted in that regard, it means anything other than a shellacking at Twickenham, then we could still go in to the final weekend with the title in our ow hands.

France have 2 tough away fixtures to come and England have to go to Cardiff so the next 2 games will really set things up for super Saturday. One way or another 2 teams will be slipping out of the race in the next 2 weeks.