England vs Ireland, Part 2

First topic message reminder :

For continuing discussion of Ireland vs England in Round 3 of the Six Nations

Previous thread; https://www.606v2.com/t51752-england-vs-ireland

Ireland have released various players to the provinces; starting for Ulster against the Scarlets on Friday are Paddy Jackson, Luke Marshall, Darren Cave and Iain Henderson. Leinster have named Jack McGrath, Sean Cronin, Martin Moore, Mike McCarthy, Rhys Ruddock, Jordi Murphy, Eoin Reddan, Ian Madigan and Fergus McFadden in their team to face Newport-Gwent Dragons. Tommy O'Donnell and Felix Jones will feature for Munster.

There's a lot of competition, mainly for the spots on the bench and possible starts later in the tournament. Can Madigan oust Paddy Jackson? Can Jordi Murphy or Rhys Ruddock force their way in ahead of Tommy O'Donnell? Can McFadden or Simon Zebo force their way into the back three? Who will replace the injured Dan Tuohy; Iain Henderson, Mike McCarthy or Donnacha Ryan? The latter is back from injury and likely to play some part for Munster.

Dan Tuohy has been ruled out of the tournament while Keith Earls, Luke Fitzgerald and Tommy Bowe are still injured and everyone is praying Johnny Sexton doesn't pick up a knock; he's expected to be riding the pine for Racing Metro.

Any English posters want to update us on their squad?

I think this England team has certainly grown and developed under Lancaster. I wonder whether the team has hit a plateau or not at the moment. I suppose we will see how it plays out.

Regarding the love fest which is England-Ireland, clearly Ireland is so superior it would take something akin to a miracle for England to come with 30 points of the Irish juggernaut. OK, that was a pretty phony attempt to big up the Irish. In reality Ireland and England have played one common opponent in the 6 Nations and each won by about the same margin. In the Autumn Internationals both lost close matches to the All Blacks. What is the conclusion? Match should be close.

I think if you look at the relative strengths of the two teams and the nature and architecture of their victories/losses then I'd give the forward battle to England on points for 60 minutes, but Ireland finishing stronger due to the disappointment on the English bench.

The Irish team is smarter and more capable out wide. If Ireland get an edge at set piece and the breakdown early then they'll win comfortably, but England will need to be 10 clear going into the last quarter.

I also rate sexton over Farrell if a close game needs to be shut down and closed out.

I've picked England on the predictor thread due to the "twickenham effect", but frankly it appears too close to call. Any early injuries for either side might swing it. I guess this is why lolly was suggesting England target Ireland with some underhand targeting.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Poorfour wrote:
From memory, only Corbs, Hartley, Cole, Wood, B Youngs, Care and Tuilagi from the current squad went to the previous RWC, and only Hartley, Cole and Tuilagi were regular starters then and now (Corbs would be if he were fit for any length of time, Wood should have been). There aren't many teams with that little continuity from the last cycle.

That's just not so. The exodus from even the All Blacks following the last RWC - Hore, Williams, SB Williams, Kaino, Kahui, Muliaiina, brad thorn, and so on.

The starting line up for the RWC final shares only 6 players in common withy the starting line up for NZ's last game. And it would've been 5 had DC not been injured in 2011.  Sounds like a very similar state to England.

The last time I checked, 6 > 3. And the cap count when England have played the ABs since the RWC has been heavily in the ABs favour both times. In fact, England have had fewer caps than every opponent they've played in the last two years.

It's hardly a huge difference, if it is 6 plays 3. Still the bulk of the team has changed. I believe it's something close to 23 new All Blacks since the RWC. That's some serious quantity of "youth" being injected. Important not to use such factors as excuses.

GloriousEmpire wrote:It's hardly a huge difference, if it is 6 plays 3. Still the bulk of the team has changed. I believe it's something close to 23 new All Blacks since the RWC. That's some serious quantity of "youth" being injected. Important not to use such factors as excuses.

It's 40% of an XV vs 20%. Which would you rather start with?

Please don't derail this thread GE.

It's been a very enjoyable light hearted thread so far between the English & Irish lads as well as visits from other forum members.

Heavens be praised! We have a week of something other than torrential rain before the game, probably showers and (whisper it) sun! Just maybe we'll see something other than bog-snorkeling come the weekend

As someone who has enjoyed these matches down the years from Croke Park to eating the Irish scrum in particular, but going back long before, each time we see O'Driscoll and Paul O'Connell now is something special. They've been giants of those encounters but these are twilight days.

Oh, and I'm not at all sure that it won't be the Irish scrum eating ours this time, if Dan Cole isn't at his best. I know that the prop popping isn't always down to him so much as the support he's getting - or not. But we haven't looked as sharp there as I would have hoped, and Ireland have looked hungry and dangerous.

It may not turn out to be a game for a neutral supporter, if you see what I mean. But it'll have both sides' supporters utterly glued. 

Metal Tiger wrote:Please don't derail this thread GE.

It's been a very enjoyable light hearted thread so far between the English & Irish lads as well as visits from other forum members.

How is making a perfectly sensible suggestion, backed with statistics "derailing" anything? It's not "derailing" to have an opinion that you don't want to hear.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:Please don't derail this thread GE.

It's been a very enjoyable light hearted thread so far between the English & Irish lads as well as visits from other forum members.

How is making a perfectly sensible suggestion, backed with statistics "derailing" anything? It's not "derailing" to have an opinion that you don't want to hear.

Bravo GE!

Cowshot wrote:Heavens be praised! We have a week of something other than torrential rain before the game, probably showers and (whisper it) sun! Just maybe we'll see something other than bog-snorkeling come the weekend

As someone who has enjoyed these matches down the years from Croke Park to eating the Irish scrum in particular, but going back long before, each time we see O'Driscoll and Paul O'Connell now is something special. They've been giants of those encounters but these are twilight days.

Oh, and I'm not at all sure that it won't be the Irish scrum eating ours this time, if Dan Cole isn't at his best. I know that the prop popping isn't always down to him so much as the support he's getting - or not. But we haven't looked as sharp there as I would have hoped, and Ireland have looked hungry and dangerous.

It may not turn out to be a game for a neutral supporter, if you see what I mean. But it'll have both sides' supporters utterly glued. 

Dam and I was looking forward to the bog snorkeling finals live at Twickenham! Well perhaps we'll have this years International paper airoplane competition instead as last years was canceled?

I know what you mean about POC and BOD, it'll be a sad day when Ireland travel to Twickenham without either in the lineup. Especially as there's no ROG now, but at least they do have POM, TOD and SOB instead.

We could easily come unstuck at the lineout and scrum if we're not careful, our scrums have been very underpowered so far and I'd seriously look at Attwood starting over Launchberry. At the lineout although the stats with Lawes and Hartley are good a lot of the ball is only slapped down so not too useful.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/feb/15/stuart-lancaster-england-world-cup

Interesting comments from Bomber comparing the different squads saying Ireland are in transition with av age of their squad 29 & many may not make the WC. Same with NZ who had 9 players over 30 in Nov & will also have to make changes before the WC.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:Please don't derail this thread GE.

It's been a very enjoyable light hearted thread so far between the English & Irish lads as well as visits from other forum members.

How is making a perfectly sensible suggestion, backed with statistics "derailing" anything? It's not "derailing" to have an opinion that you don't want to hear.

GE - don't pretend to be dim. We know you deliberately attempt to sew discontent and discord which is why many of us simply ignore you. Don't insult our intelligence by trying to pretend you do not do this.

I usually ignore you but this one I didn't want to =- however I will not get into further discussion with you to allow you the attention you crave and to allow you to derail this thread further.

I wish the Mods would ban you for life.

Interesting analysis in the Telegraph regarding Ireland's star player so far:

Six Nations 2014: England need to keep close eye on Ireland's Peter O’Mahony, says Tom Wood

Stuart Lancaster's side must ensure they make an agressive start in the RBS Six Nations clash with Ireland
Tom Wood - England need to keep close eye on Ireland's Peter O’Mahony, says Tom Wood

Tom Wood believes that England must heed the lessons from Northampton’s mauling at the hands of Leinster in December and be ultra-aggressive from the very first whistle against Ireland in their RBS Six Nations Championship match at Twickenham next Saturday.

England’s blindside flanker admitted that he would have to keep a particularly close eye on his opposite number Peter O’Mahony, one of the players of the tournament so far, in what is sure to be a highly physical contest.

O’Mahony was man of the match in Ireland's devastating 26-3 victory against Wales in Dublin last Saturday, his ferocious energy at the breakdown earning his team a number of turnovers, and Wood said that the young Munster captain’s performance had caught the eye.

“O’Mahony has really come into his own over the last couple of years and taken a leadership role from what I can see,” the Northampton man said.

“He has high energy and is really abrasive and is someone we have really got to look after – myself, the back row and the team in general.”

I agree with him we need to target POM as he's been a catalyst for the rest of the pack and Ireland have looked at their best on his turnovers, but it's not just him though, we need to smash as many of their forwards as early in the game as possible. I expect a lot of mauls and penalties at the breakdown in the first quarter as both teams look to boss each other.

Oh and a few more reasons why England are the under dogs...

Assuming that the starting XVs will be as they were last weekend, Ireland will enter the contest with 724 caps between them, an average of 48 per man, as well as an average age of 29.5.

By contrast England will have 316 caps between them, averaging just 21, as well as 25 years. Callow? They, rather than Ireland, really should be wearing green.

If you factor in British and Irish Lions Test caps too, Ireland’s tally swells to 753 with their 29 Lions caps, while the four mustered by England’s Dan Cole (three) and Owen Farrell (one) hardly trouble the ledger.

Ireland's average age will be 29.5?

There's always the old cliché about Ireland being an aging side but I guess it's true.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/feb/15/stuart-lancaster-england-world-cup

Interesting comments from Bomber comparing the different squads saying Ireland are in transition with av age of their squad 29 & many may not make the WC. Same with NZ who had 9 players over 30 in Nov & will also have to make changes before the WC.

BoD is the only player who won't make the WC,Mike Ross won't be first choice by that time and I'd like to see a young scrumhalf (Marmion probably) come through as back up to Murray but other than that we're in a very good place as regards our age profile and the young players coming through.

But yappy... didn't Will Greenwood in the same paper say that Ireland look strong enough to take a Championship perhaps... but that England look the right team in the right place to scupper the Slam?

I'd agree with him.  Ireland are a mixed bag of a team age-wise.... some ancient trees still in there for stability as the younger selections learn.  Some middle career players quickly becoming the senior elements (even Sexton is becoming an 'old' experienced guy) and then a sprinkling of young try outs coming in and going away again in the last year or two.

So quite a bit of experience yes - but also some green that could influence a rhythm if things went badly and thus lose the confidence to right the wrong again.

England are the toughest encounter for Ireland because they are playing so well AND, it's a structured game.  It isn't chance, and it isn't just a few individuals putting a gloss on things with individual skills (like a good chunk of the French performances has been so far)

Plus.... in order to be the right mood to win in Paris, Ireland really do have to go for the win in England.  They might stretch themselves, they might try too hard, signals between tactics and passions might become jumbled.  Ireland are not a million miles away from their very inconsistent past.  England certainly have tools aplenty to make the Irish wobble in confidence.

You just won't be able to call this one until the end whistle.

Cyril wrote:Ireland's average age will be 29.5?

There's always the old cliché about Ireland being an aging side but I guess it's true.

We age our players like whiskey. You can smell the oak from them

Nope, that's still just the whiskey on them

It's working so far so.... Whiskey matured, whiskey hardened and whiskey their favourite energy drink.

What a sly tactic! Now Danny will be instinctively drawn towards contact not space and the fumes will make him drunk and silly!


(Not really)

You're lucky you added "(Not really)".
I was flabbergasted for a sec there that Lancaster would have allowed Care to play with such tempting fumes in the air.

I am flabbergasted that SL let so many players go back to their clubs yesterday, the risk of injury to key players although even they may be replacements is high bearing in mind we have potentially our toughest game next weekend

It's a calculated risk though as a lot of those guys may have played at most 20 mins of rugby in about 3 weeks. They need the proper game time, and injuries can happen in training as well. There's always risk.

Cyril wrote:Ireland's average age will be 29.5?

There's always the old cliché about Ireland being an aging side but I guess it's true.

I don't know, we'll be going to the World Cup with an average age of 30/31 which is ideal- and then we have a number of players who are in their early twenties pushing for starting places behind them. I'm pretty happy with where we are because I think we have a number of good replacements for Mike Ross, Paul O'Connell, Brian O'Driscoll and Gordon D'Arcy lined up (Martin Moore, Iain Henderson, Robbie Henshaw/Jared Payne and Luke Marshall). All young players except for Payne, all with the potential to be as good players at test level as their peers anywhere else in Europe. I would be surprised if Henderson isn't a Lion in due course.

In terms of our age profile though, we have to be challenging to win the Six Nations this year or next year but our depth has never been better- again. Last time we had a decent team we had about 15 decent players. Since then our depth gets better each year. This is down to the success of our provincial teams.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I am flabbergasted that SL let so many players go back to their clubs yesterday, the risk of injury to key players although even they may be replacements is high bearing in mind we have potentially our toughest game next weekend

In the case of Tom Youngs I hope he stays with his club rather than come on in the last third of the match and screw things up.

Dan Cole out of the rest of the six nations with a neck problem, according to RFU.

Huge loss considering Wilson looked short of match fitness this weekend and Thomas is untested really. With Healy up this weekend, it is a huge test for either of them.

Massive massive loss.

Huge loss. Could be the making of THomas, but I suggest we don't knock the ball on!

Massive, massive boon for Ireland- as unsporting as that sounds. Dan Cole is a weapon, his absence is great news for our scrum.

Even if he hasn't been at top form recently, his experience will be a massive loss.

Bad, but by no means disastrous or catastrophic, news for England.

Cole has looked like he desperately needs a rest for some time. This could end up being a good thing in the long term.

Real shame that Wilson is injured too as this could have been his chance to shine.

I think Thomas will do ok, but I'd feel more confident if Corbs was available in terms of our scrum.

Who's the back-up TH now?

Cyril wrote:Cole has looked like he desperately needs a rest for some time. This could end up being a good thing in the long term.

Real shame that Wilson is injured too as this could have been his chance to shine.

I think Thomas will do ok, but I'd feel more confident if Corbs was available in terms of our scrum.

Who's the back-up TH now?

if hes had a bulging disc it could explain his scrummaging.

Cyril wrote:Cole has looked like he desperately needs a rest for some time. This could end up being a good thing in the long term.

Real shame that Wilson is injured too as this could have been his chance to shine.

I think Thomas will do ok, but I'd feel more confident if Corbs was available in terms of our scrum.

Who's the back-up TH now?

Brookes I hope

Just realised Wilson's just back from injury. How did he get on against Exeter?

I wonder if he'll be parachuted straight in on the bench? He's certainly an option for the later games.

Hmm. Cole a massive loss. It's really starting to feel like we're asking a lot from our lads - many still new. Well, we've still got a talented bunch there. Very hard game but by no means impossible.

I do think we'll see handbags up front. There's a real edginess to the Irish front row play and Thomas if (as seems likely) selected will be an obvious target at this point.

Yappysnap: Yes we aren't a smoothly articulated Chariot swinging low, more of a skip with ambition. Still I haven't given up hope, even with the Cole injury.

Frak!

Although we've all complained he's only running on about 75% at the mo, i'd still take a 75% fit Cole over any of the other candidates except Wilson.

Let's hope Roger's had a good rest as he's going to be straight in at the deep end this week!!

Wow without Cole Ireland will be looking to disrupt the scrum. He was probably the most important player to you folks and will be a major loss. Healy, Ross et al will be licking their lips. Maybe this game will be dedicated to Tom Court whose international career was wrecked when forced to scrummage on his weak side against england.

Ireland by 10 now simply due to loss of cole's scrummaging and animal rucking.

Cian Healey and Rory Best can really cause some damage against an inexperienced English TH.

Wilson is not fit enough to replace Cole.
Providing Ross can hold Marler - I think he can I would be licking my lips playing against an English front row of Thomas, Hartley, Marler - weakest in a long time

Cyril wrote:Just realised Wilson's just back from injury. How did he get on against Exeter?

I wonder if he'll be parachuted straight in on the bench? He's certainly an option for the later games.

He was awful - clearly not match fit.
Worst game I ever seen him played - looked like a player rushed back before he was ready
he had to be substituted - if he had stayed on Bath would have lost

I might even start to feel optimistic about this game although it'll take more than scrum dominance (or even parity for that matter) to give this English side a hammering. I know Ireland, if we can maintain the tempo, can dish out a pasting to most international teams at the moment BUT this English side has looked better and better. Lancs is a shrewd hoor indeed and is quite obviously building the young talent, of which there is plenty, for the RWC. If they can win this six nations campaign then so be it but he wisely has his eyes on the future.
Personally I couldn't give a toss about the future if Ireland could win the triple crown this weekend and I'd be on that cloud nine again if we win that coveted trophy. I can't imagine how I'd feel about a GS (never utter those words) to say farewell to BOD.

Wasn't that long ago we were playing Tim Payne...

At least we can claim the underdogs tag now!

Big loss, it's the one position (with Wilson unfit) that we couldn't afford an injury. Another Lion goes down/off form.

Wilson is way off fitness and I wouldn't want him to start an international game. Thomas' sole training for the week will be on the scrum machine.

The only think in Thomas' favour is that he's a great carrier and works very hard around the park so I don't think we'll lack in open play.

I don't even know if Wilson should be on the bench at this stage. A call up for Brookes could be on the cards.

Brookes would do well, he has performed strongly against the likes of Marler in the Prem, don't think he would let us down at the scrum

bluestonevedder wrote:Dan Cole out of the rest of the six nations with a neck problem, according to RFU.

Huge loss considering Wilson looked short of match fitness this weekend and Thomas is untested really. With Healy up this weekend, it is a huge test for either of them.

Massive massive loss.

Terrible loss for Tigers... oh yeah... and England.

Could this see the recall of our other Lion Fat Stevens into the England squad? He can cover both sides although his primary is Tighthead. For some reason the Sarries like him & keep playing him.

I know most folk think it is a choice between Thomas or Wilson to fill Coles mighty boots but are there any wildcards? 

Perhaps Mako has another brother somewhere out there  

Julian White for a recall.

Metal Tiger wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Dan Cole out of the rest of the six nations with a neck problem, according to RFU.

Huge loss considering Wilson looked short of match fitness this weekend and Thomas is untested really. With Healy up this weekend, it is a huge test for either of them.

Massive massive loss.

Terrible loss for Tigers... oh yeah... and England.

Could this see the recall of our other Lion Fat Stevens into the England squad? He can cover both sides although his primary is Tighthead. For some reason the Sarries like him & keep playing him.

I know most folk think it is a choice between Henry or Wilson to fill Coles mighty boots but are there any wildcards? 

Perhaps Mako has another brother somewhere out there  

I doubt it. I am sure we would have noticed the gravitational pull if that was the case

If Ireland get cocky (and are licking their lips!) with the absense of Cole...and try to ramrod the game - then that's dangerous thinking.
England are still England, still at home, still with plenty of reason for being well up for this game (Championship still on, NZ games approaching, WC approaching, home fortress game)

Ireland must hold their composure and maintain the gameplan that will have been readied for the team with Cole in.  He's only one player and they have a selection that have the potential to make Ireland suffer for any bout of superiority complex.

Keep heads down, keep focused, pretend Cole is still there and playing, keep alert, keep to gameplans..................... and then, if we do all that, we're in with a certain chance that we still might lose

lostinwales wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Dan Cole out of the rest of the six nations with a neck problem, according to RFU.

Huge loss considering Wilson looked short of match fitness this weekend and Thomas is untested really. With Healy up this weekend, it is a huge test for either of them.

Massive massive loss.

Terrible loss for Tigers... oh yeah... and England.

Could this see the recall of our other Lion Fat Stevens into the England squad? He can cover both sides although his primary is Tighthead. For some reason the Sarries like him & keep playing him.

I know most folk think it is a choice between Henry or Wilson to fill Coles mighty boots but are there any wildcards? 

Perhaps Mako has another brother somewhere out there  

I doubt it. I am sure we would have noticed the gravitational pull if that was the case

 

 very very good, lost. I love when physics enters the rugby lexicon.

Will be an excellent Championship in store if England and Wales win this week; four teams level on four points each with two games to go = yes please!

I imagine John KIngston will be talking to Marler about the weak spots in Ross's scrummaging this week...