England vs Ireland, Part 2

First topic message reminder :

For continuing discussion of Ireland vs England in Round 3 of the Six Nations

Previous thread; https://www.606v2.com/t51752-england-vs-ireland

Ireland have released various players to the provinces; starting for Ulster against the Scarlets on Friday are Paddy Jackson, Luke Marshall, Darren Cave and Iain Henderson. Leinster have named Jack McGrath, Sean Cronin, Martin Moore, Mike McCarthy, Rhys Ruddock, Jordi Murphy, Eoin Reddan, Ian Madigan and Fergus McFadden in their team to face Newport-Gwent Dragons. Tommy O'Donnell and Felix Jones will feature for Munster.

There's a lot of competition, mainly for the spots on the bench and possible starts later in the tournament. Can Madigan oust Paddy Jackson? Can Jordi Murphy or Rhys Ruddock force their way in ahead of Tommy O'Donnell? Can McFadden or Simon Zebo force their way into the back three? Who will replace the injured Dan Tuohy; Iain Henderson, Mike McCarthy or Donnacha Ryan? The latter is back from injury and likely to play some part for Munster.

Dan Tuohy has been ruled out of the tournament while Keith Earls, Luke Fitzgerald and Tommy Bowe are still injured and everyone is praying Johnny Sexton doesn't pick up a knock; he's expected to be riding the pine for Racing Metro.

Any English posters want to update us on their squad?

No side has played particularly well yet.

Some have played very badly indeed though.

Hopefully this weekend should have some better rugby, conditions permitting.

lostinwales wrote:I didnt say devalued actually. I think there have been good performances and hope there will be more in the weekends to come.

But there is always possibilities in these kinds of tournaments that a lot of 'just good enough' together with a little luck and the odd moment of individual genius is enough to win the GS.

Yes.  And that's what's wrong with it.  Teams often do enough to win against weaker opposition and then think they are good enough to take on the world if they win a Slam.  
What's wrong with the 6N is that it is oh so much a navel gazing competition - only regarding the quality of itself as a yardstick for 'quality' itself.
I say it about Ireland all the time.  If they have the ammunition and gameplan to drive New Zealand close and obliterate Wales this year and the first half last year, then use such intensity on the 'lesser' sides in 6N too.  Be ruthless.  But nope, many sides just seem to tick over until they need the Big one game (England v Wales for example).

Of course there is also the weather to consider but England showed you can attempt to play rugby even in a pig pen.  It's attitude.

Notch wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Every GS is devalued...

Everyone knows that

I actually sincerely agree with that including the 2009 Grand Slam and any future Slams Ireland may or may not win. When you compare the quality of rugby we play in our tournament to what the All Blacks are doing, we are all just so many bald men fighting over a rather underwhelming comb. You want to be the best, you want to beat the best teams in the world, and winning a Six Nations grand slam is not necessarily an indicator that you can be the best or beat the best teams in the world. It's just a slightly devalued claim to local bragging rights until you back it up by winning a World Cup or beating the All Blacks.

A devalued crown that I will be ecstatic about Ireland winning come March, if we are so lucky as good as I think we can be

that's the point isn't it- you win a GS and then you get stuffed by the SH.

But then look at the 3 sides that came so close to beating NZ this year.. All playing higher quality stuff(in comparison to the other 3)

I dont want to devalue Wales in any shape or form here- But when it boils down to it. Its all about the AI's

The 6 nations is an amazing tourny- but it isn't the yardstick to judge a team..

Wales major recent achievement was the semi final - that should have been a final in the RWC

Well i love the 6n...the passion, the rivals etc etc

Once Ireland and Wales finally get that win under their belt of NZ and the other teams....their confidence will soar and they will start regularly beating the SH teams like England and Scotland do   

Yep, Geordie...but that's still only one WC for a NH side in 7 attempts through 24 years, having been in a final five times.

So regularly beating SH teams isn't so much the puzzle as in beating them at the right time when history will recall the deed

but you're right about the passions and rivalries.  I also think that the 6N is a much more chess like experience than perhaps the SH variety is.  Teams don't go all out all the time but 'think' their way through - and that aspect that frustrates me (the two or three or even four levels of intensity one side can bring to the Championship) is also the bit that can often intrigue me as you see sides fall back when on a winning run in a game to almost willingly test out their defensive structures for bigger games to come.  

So it's a card game.  Teams keeping things back or testing out an aspect they'll need down the line.

6 finals out of 7 thank you.

which tells us we have the quiality- just not the grit to go on in the massive games

mystiroakey wrote:6 finals out of 7 thank you.

which tells us we have the quiality- just not the grit to go on in the massive games

Oh yeah - 6. Sorry for the miscount there but an even bigger reflection on the idea that being at a final is not good enough

Very true mate.

But the SH was so far ahead, we did well to get to the five finals.

I truly believe the gap is genuinely closing now...and much of this is to do with all the home nations NOT relying on foreign journeymen and bringing through their own kids many of whom are now really top class players.

Ireland should have beaten NZ, Wales are close, England beat them last year and ran them close this year.

Next season or even this summer it may be reveresed...with NH wins all round down in their neck of the woods.

I actually believe the winner of next years WC will come from the NH.

I think the truth is that Aus and SA just have bigger balls in the big games.

The only time an NH team won the RWC was when England were the best team in the world- we had over a 90% win rate over the previous 3 years before the win,


If the best allways won a WC NZ would have at least 4 at the moment if not 5 or 6!

I've just eaten a devalued Chicken Club sandwich.

Metal Tiger wrote:I've just eaten a devalued Chicken Club sandwich.

Italian dressing on it?

Us English will be eating a devalued breakfast at the weekend..

(The irish breakie is not up to the quality of the full english)

Can't beat an Irish breakfast........... in a roll........... with a mug of tea.........ten floors up on a cold as f**k building site. That IS Pleasure Eatin'!!!!

what constitutes an irish breakie- 

do you need to slap white pudding and potato cake in with your bacon and egg?

mystiroakey wrote:what constitutes an irish breakie- 

do you need to slap white pudding and potato cake in with your bacon and egg?

I don't know, but i do know what makes up an Irish 7 Course dinner...

A six pack and a baked potato.

Guinness and a failed betting slip? As long as we aren't coat tailing anyone's breakie, we're fine.

Irish Brekkie is white pudding and mushroom instead of beans.

SecretFly wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:I've just eaten a devalued Chicken Club sandwich.

Italian dressing on it?

It was a Welsh free range chicken if that helps...

Should have a proper 6N feast:

French crêpes for breakfast, followed by a Welsh Rarebit lunch, English cream tea, a few pints of Guinness, a pasta dinner and finally a single malt before bed!

Mickado wrote:Irish Brekkie is white pudding and mushroom instead of beans.

Mushrooms will have you puking (if you have a sensitive stomach)
Bean will have you............... well, not an ingredient for close quarters office work I'd assume....

Notch wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Every GS is devalued...

Everyone knows that

I actually sincerely agree with that including the 2009 Grand Slam and any future Slams Ireland may or may not win. When you compare the quality of rugby we play in our tournament to what the All Blacks are doing, we are all just so many bald men fighting over a rather underwhelming comb. You want to be the best, you want to beat the best teams in the world, and winning a Six Nations grand slam is not necessarily an indicator that you can be the best or beat the best teams in the world. It's just a slightly devalued claim to local bragging rights until you back it up by winning a World Cup or beating the All Blacks.

I don't agree at all. The rugby served up in the RWC is often a load of garbage. You're lucky if you get more than 3 or 4 genuine high quality games over the course of the tournament and half of those end up determined by the referee.

By contrast the 6N is a very intense tournament played over a short period. The quality and style of rugby is in part due to the weather and the tense occasions that a lot of the games provide due to the rivalries and history. Generally speaking it determines the pecking order in the NH which isn't anything to belittle at all.

Summer tours and AIs don't provide an even playing field so aren't always the true acid test of where team are at.

The only international competition that serves up consistently high quality rugby is the rugby championship - and even that can be overkill with the home and away aspect.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Should have a proper 6N feast:

French crêpes for breakfast, followed by a Welsh Rarebit lunch, English cream tea, a few pints of Guinness, a pasta dinner and finally a single malt before bed!

I think you may have just planned my Saturday  

The pecking order in the NH is overrated and perhaps indeed over-confident.

Metal Tiger wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Should have a proper 6N feast:

French crêpes for breakfast, followed by a Welsh Rarebit lunch, English cream tea, a few pints of Guinness, a pasta dinner and finally a single malt before bed!

I think you may have just planned my Saturday  

Its a great idea

however I am going to change the courses

croissants for brekkie.

leek and potato soup(the classic irish and welsh mix) as a lunch starter

a plate of penne with tomato bacon chilli and cheese for lunch

Scottish shortbread with tea for tea

fish and chips for dinner.

throughout the day i will drink

Guinness,(Irish)

single malt(Scottish)

kernal IPA(English)

Celt experience ash(welsh)

peroini gran reservi.(Italian)



and a glass of champagne following the victory

SecretFly wrote:The pecking order in the NH is overrated and perhaps indeed over-confident.

Well at least the order the pecks are in isn't determined by the norovirus.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The pecking order in the NH is overrated and perhaps indeed over-confident.

Well at least the order the pecks are in isn't determined by the norovirus.

 

Heaslip's peck is legendary but that's as far as I'm going. He's top of the leader board.

Plus...try putting a norovirus in pecking order! That's a billion of them per pinhead. Away you go.

SecretFly wrote:Heaslip's peck is legendary but that's as far as I'm going.  He's top of the leader board.

Heaslip certainly has the over-confident strut of a man who indeed overrates his peck.

Then again that could just be the weight of his wallet.

It's his testoserone levels. You try being a shrinking violet with his level of manliness shouting at you to stand up and be counted!

  

SecretFly wrote:It's his testoserone levels.  You try being a shrinking violet with his level of manliness shouting at you to stand up and be counted!

  

What would he have for breakfast though?

Women.

3 weetabixs soaked in Epinephrine

SecretFly wrote:Women.

Surely he's too masculine for that. Reminds me of the film Layer Cake.

Has this thread decended into nonsense because it's been concluded the game will be a cake walk for the Irish?

Nope just trying to go for the world record of filling two match threads before KO.

Yep. They may as well celebrate before the match

HammerofThunor wrote:Has this thread decended into nonsense because it's been concluded the game will be a cake walk for the Irish?

No...we've just exhasted all avenues about the game last week. This is just the waiting game. Small chat at the train station.

So how much should I bet on Ireland to win this game?

Well what with our scrum and line-out falling to pieces.

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Has this thread decended into nonsense because it's been concluded the game will be a cake walk for the Irish?

No...we've just exhasted all avenues about the game last week.  This is just the waiting game.  Small chat at the train station.

I always enjoy small chat at the train station. Gives me a chance to be rude.

Scrumpy wrote:So how much should I bet on Ireland to win this game?

I've bet all the Groats we have in the Westcountry.

..and there is nothing nonsense about breakfast (most important meal of the day!), masulinity (where would I be without it? - in a boyband making 10 million a week most likely) or the norovirus (best Plan B in the rugby game)

mystiroakey wrote:Us English will be eating a devalued breakfast at the weekend..

(The irish breakie is not up to the quality of the full english)

In the face of the overwhelming superiority of the Ulster Fry, I declare this entire article devalued.

http://www.independent.co.uk/extras/indybest/food-drink/the-50-best-breakfast-spots-6256963.html

It's moot I say! Moot!

Scrumpy wrote:So how much should I bet on Ireland to win this game?

More than a couple of sausages but less than five rashers of bacon.

Here's some rugby chat. Eoin Reddan is starting for Leinster tomorrow night whilst Mike McCarthy, Rhys Ruddock and Ian Madigan are on the bench. So we can infer that none are going to come into the Irish squad for Saturday, which indicates no major changes in the reserve halfbacks for Ireland and that the reserve second row slot is likely to go to Henderson.

HammerofThunor wrote:Has this thread decended into nonsense because it's been concluded the game will be a cake walk for the Irish?

but as you brought it up.. Banana Cake is undervalued.

and my fav breakfast cake is lemon with lemon icing.

Cyril wrote:No side has played particularly well yet.

Some have played very badly indeed though.

Hopefully this weekend should have some better rugby, conditions permitting.

Glad to see that putting 20 points on Wales is not considered playing well

tazfalklands wrote:

Cyril wrote:No side has played particularly well yet.

Some have played very badly indeed though.

Hopefully this weekend should have some better rugby, conditions permitting.

Glad to see that putting 20 points on Wales is not considered playing well

I'm Irish and Cyril is right in that the Ireland team just did enough to win but didn't show much by way of variety in attack. Clinical - yes. Job done - yes. But not a tour-de-force showing - yet.

It's true, it was a good performance from Ireland and a great result but if it's the best we can do we won't win anything I think. We need to keep improving.

What areas would the Irish wing of the glass half empty online rugby critics association like to see improvement in?