England vs Ireland, Part 2

First topic message reminder :

For continuing discussion of Ireland vs England in Round 3 of the Six Nations

Previous thread; https://www.606v2.com/t51752-england-vs-ireland

Ireland have released various players to the provinces; starting for Ulster against the Scarlets on Friday are Paddy Jackson, Luke Marshall, Darren Cave and Iain Henderson. Leinster have named Jack McGrath, Sean Cronin, Martin Moore, Mike McCarthy, Rhys Ruddock, Jordi Murphy, Eoin Reddan, Ian Madigan and Fergus McFadden in their team to face Newport-Gwent Dragons. Tommy O'Donnell and Felix Jones will feature for Munster.

There's a lot of competition, mainly for the spots on the bench and possible starts later in the tournament. Can Madigan oust Paddy Jackson? Can Jordi Murphy or Rhys Ruddock force their way in ahead of Tommy O'Donnell? Can McFadden or Simon Zebo force their way into the back three? Who will replace the injured Dan Tuohy; Iain Henderson, Mike McCarthy or Donnacha Ryan? The latter is back from injury and likely to play some part for Munster.

Dan Tuohy has been ruled out of the tournament while Keith Earls, Luke Fitzgerald and Tommy Bowe are still injured and everyone is praying Johnny Sexton doesn't pick up a knock; he's expected to be riding the pine for Racing Metro.

Any English posters want to update us on their squad?

TJ I don't think we are a complete team at all and if we manage it it will barely manage in time for the World Cup. But we will still beat Ireland

Is there a record for filling up/closing a thread before a match takes place?

I'm sure Notch will know... or maybe Ozzy (as he something of a stato).

We're on part 2 now... could we be on part 4 by kick off?

ChequeredJersey wrote:TJ I don't think we are a complete team at all and if we manage it it will barely manage in time for the World Cup. But we will still beat Ireland

According to Lancaster Ireland is the most complete team in the 6 nations. What a divil he is.

Talk 'em up before you knock them down. Good old Stewie

He also said his players had a more do-or-die attitude given that they played under pressure more: "pressure of the play-offs, the pressure of getting into Europe and the pressure of avoiding relegation. They are used to the week-in, week-out toughness"

So yes, he is a divil. His boys are tougher. It's official.

SecretFly wrote:He also said his players had a more do-or-die attitude given that they played under pressure more: "pressure of the play-offs, the pressure of getting into Europe and the pressure of avoiding relegation. They are used to the week-in, week-out toughness"

So yes, he is a divil.  His boys are tougher.  It's official.

Have you ever heard such nonsense.

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:TJ I don't think we are a complete team at all and if we manage it it will barely manage in time for the World Cup. But we will still beat Ireland

According to Lancaster Ireland is the most complete team in the 6 nations. What a divil he is.

Whether Lancaster is a Divil (?) or not... He's right, Ireland are setting the standard and you are the team to beat. Whilst i fancy our chances of beating you at home, it certainly won't be end of my world if we don't as we are not any near the finished artical yet.

If you do beat us then you feckers had better go on and do the slam.

Irrrrrrreeeland! er... i mean Ennnngland!!

Meanwhile Joe Schmidt is being more of a cute hoor...saying not much at all: "If we get a result there, that would be great. But they'll do everything in their power to make sure we don't and we know they've a lot of power. Across the board they're very strong."

Divil = Devil
Cute Hoor = Sly Politician on the Make.

ChequeredJersey wrote:TJ I don't think we are a complete team at all and if we manage it it will barely manage in time for the World Cup. But we will still beat Ireland

I think England are nearly there myself (worrying ) signs of becoming so and I think you will just be ready for the WC.

A divil in Oirish slang is just someone who is mischevious.

TJ wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:TJ I don't think we are a complete team at all and if we manage it it will barely manage in time for the World Cup. But we will still beat Ireland

I think England are nearly there myself (worrying ) signs of becoming so and I think you will just be ready for the WC.

They are bubbling nicely, it is true.  
I've been watching their graph from 2003 to now..... it's a very sweet curve and they should be quite hopeful that they'll be in the right place to give the home WC a real good crack.  

There is very little left to chance in this modern 21st century England/GB when it comes to sport.  Nothing is accident or good luck but science and reason and effort.  The Olympics was neither good luck or 'just getting there in the end' it was precise planning.  They're knuckling down to the rugby WC too.  People are taking them a little too casually right now with all the jokes and sideswipes from some of our SH friends.  But this England project is a serious one.

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:TJ I don't think we are a complete team at all and if we manage it it will barely manage in time for the World Cup. But we will still beat Ireland

According to Lancaster Ireland is the most complete team in the 6 nations. What a divil he is.

Are you sure he didnt sat the Irish are complete Teets?
Not suggesting they are, just this whole regional accents thing can be problematic

SecretFly wrote:

TJ wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:TJ I don't think we are a complete team at all and if we manage it it will barely manage in time for the World Cup. But we will still beat Ireland

I think England are nearly there myself (worrying ) signs of becoming so and I think you will just be ready for the WC.

They are bubbling nicely, it is true.  
I've been watching their graph from 2003 to now..... it's a very sweet curve and they should be quite hopeful that they'll be in the right place to give the home WC a real good crack.  

You must've had to adjust the axis a few times. We've gone from the sublime to the ridiculous in that time and it's only the last three years or so that we've started to look remotely coherent. That is in part due to the youth and coaching system.

From my point of view I think 2015 is too early for this team. I think we'll give it a good go but the experience and cutting edge isn't there yet. I'll stick my neck out and say Lancs should keep his place to 2019.

Look at the graph Chjw...(get an easier name to type quickly too whilst you're at it )

But look at the world rankings since 2003....it's a shallow down to about 2008/2009 and now it's a growing equally shallow up...ready to peak around 2015.

??? you keep hitting repeat CH...

SecretFly wrote:??? you keep hitting repeat CH...

There seems to be an issue with the site. Everytime I post too its telling me that someone else has just posted a comment. You know that screen? Except that comment is mine so if you proceed you are posting twice.

Apologies, the damn thing keeps coming up with a site maintenance message and well.... I hate technology!

Now I can delete any of them!

IRB rankings pre-AI/post WC
2013 - 4th
2012 - 4th
SL took over
2011 - 5th
2010 - 6th
2009 - 7th
MJ took over
2008 - 5th
2007 - 4th
BA took over
2006 - 6th
2005 - 6th
AR took over
2004 - 3rd
2003 - 1st

I know..mine was acting up too..seems to have settled now though...I hope

HammerofThunor wrote:IRB rankings pre-AI/post WC
2013 - 4th
2012 - 4th
SL took over
2011 - 5th
2010 - 6th
2009 - 7th
MJ took over
2008 - 5th
2007 - 4th
BA took over
2006 - 6th
2005 - 6th
AR took over
2004 - 3rd
2003 - 1st

It looks smoother in pictorial form..... it's definitely upward trending towards more 2015 rather than 2019

Given that its valentines days. Im gonna spread the love and post my top 5 favourite England players that I loved to watch of all time. Feel free to puke if you like.

Will Carling - Smug, arrogant, ladies man, over confident. Love it, respect. Nicer person than people give him credit for.
Neil Back - Great mix of bravery, rugby intellegence and streetwise aka a good cheat.
Lawrence Dallaglio - Just loved the way he played his position. He was also fearless. He is a good pundit now too.
Lewis Moody - Also fearless, uncompromising and a gentleman off the pitch (it seems)
Rory Underwood - part of the first England team I ever watched in the 6 nations when he scored tries for fun. England were very hard to stop back then. It was hard not to want to emulate Underwood back then as a young under 10s player.

Lewis Moody was one of my favourite players. But then I like a trier and whatever you think of him talent wise he certainly tried.

I've not watched rugby for long enough to really have favourite players list, mainly because the whole team seemed to out do us every time we played. They've always seemed to have something that England teams lacked (yeah yeah: talent, skill, ability ). When you've lost to us it's been a clear sign that something was wrong, generally with the coaching set up.

Gibbs - exceptional centre, destructive, nimble and one of the few who successfully transferred from League.
Henson - a complete $%^& off the park but on it, always seemed to have so much time on the ball, beautiful hands, huge tackler. What a waste
Parisse - still love to watch him, a naturally gifted player who in most sides would probably have become a world great
Vickery - i just hope the raging bull never retires. A monster in the scrum until lions 09.
Johnson - the epitome of what a capt/forward should be, aggressive, nasty, lead by example.

Scratch wrote:
Henson - , huge tackler.

I misread this first time   

English players. Not based on ability as such but moreso in simply being players I found myself liking.

Billy Beaumont... how could you not love that man with his hangdog chubby jowls like your best pal gundog.  Fetch boy!

Rory Underwood, yes.

I'm sorry but Dallaglio??? - the only thing that hits me when I think of him is his sideline exercise-bike routine.  For some reason it just always made me laugh when the cameras panned to him......  "Oh my!  Dallaglio is about to come on and he's on his bike which means he's serious!"

Yeah, Lewis Moody is there too - the dashing musketeer type - yeah liked him and loved his attitude.

Don't hit me but personally, for whatever reason, I always liked Rob Andrew.  I know he ain't too popular around English circles in the last few years but as a player he was probably my favourite English one in his time.

I liked Bill Beaumont but I only really knew him as a captain on a question of sport cause his career ended before I started watching rugby. I always wanted him to win because Emlyn Hughes was a footballer with an irritating voice.

From Ireland:

David Wallace- a really great flanker and leader, had it all and had mana in spades
BOD- great player who has managed some exquisite pieces of skill as well as daring and guts through the years
Geordan Murphy- maybe had some bad days for Ireland but in terms of what he could do he was incredible
POC- a legend still around, I still think possibly the main reason we lost to Munster in last year's HEC
John Hayes- full of heart and a real Lion. Running out of cliches

Poor Emlyn...nice perhaps overly-giddy man (but I liked him for it). Died much too young.

Simon Geoghegan.

There are plenty of Irish players who've had longer careers tormenting the English - especially in that run of matches after our World Cup win. However, Geoghegan lives bright and bold in my memory, and we didn't even get the compensation of seeing him strut his stuff for the Lions.

On that theme:

Paul O'Connell - seems to embody what everyone would want in a leader. Massive respect for his commitment and remaining a Munster and Irish talisman.

Alan Quinlan - used to irritate the feck out of me when I saw him play but his will to win and spirit on the pitch were unquestionable.

Kieth Wood - one of the best hookers of all time and I like his punditry, even the bias!

BOD - next to Horan the best centre of all time and seems like a decent bloke off the field.

Metal Tiger wrote:Is there a record for filling up/closing a thread before a match takes place?

I'm sure Notch will know... or maybe Ozzy (as he something of a stato).

We're on part 2 now... could we be on part 4 by kick off?

I have absolutely no idea! The fact the Ulster vs Scarlets game has been postponed is only going to heighten my Six Nations withdrawal symptoms though...

SecretFly wrote:

Don't hit me but personally, for whatever reason, I always liked Rob Andrew.  I know he ain't too popular around English circles in the last few years but as a player he was probably my favourite English one in his time.

Because he kept stuart barnes out of the side?

SecretFly wrote:English players.  Not based on ability as such but moreso in simply being players I found myself liking.

Billy Beaumont... how could you not love that man with his hangdog chubby jowls like your best pal gundog.  Fetch boy!

Rory Underwood, yes.

I'm sorry but Dallaglio??? - the only thing that hits me when I think of him is his sideline exercise-bike routine.  For some reason it just always made me laugh when the cameras panned to him......  "Oh my!  Dallaglio is about to come on and he's on his bike which means he's serious!"

Yeah, Lewis Moody is there too - the dashing musketeer type - yeah liked him and loved his attitude.

Don't hit me but personally, for whatever reason, I always liked Rob Andrew.  I know he ain't too popular around English circles in the last few years but as a player he was probably my favourite English one in his time.

Rob Andrew was a great player and most England fans respect him for that... however as a suit at the RFU squeaky shrugged off responsibility the way he shrugged off tackles... effortlessly.  Personally can't forgive him for the way he knifed Johnno in the back during his tenure with England.

Just want to say well done to everyone on this thread.
It has genuinely been a joy reading all the banter, chat & jokes.

 

Continuing with this Emerald love in....

Geordan Murphy... absolutely mercurial player at the height of his powers.
Shane Jennings... Utter nuisance to any opposition at the breakdown.
Keith Wood... I always thought Ireland played better with him just being on the pitch.
BOD... The greatest Irish player of his generation.

Might be a bit biased on the first two being a Tigers boy.

Always liked Girvan Dempsey.

Although I think mainly because he just didn't look like he should be able to hack it playing against the teams he did. You watched him and thought he has to be about twice the age of everyone else playing, must weigh about 10stone when wet and runs like he's going to collect his pension. But still he was quality!

Almost 100 Ireland caps and nearly 200 Leinster caps don't come easily and the guy scored a fair few tries as well.

Jonny Wilkinson. Forget the kicks, England's outhalf channel was not so much a dead end as a lane with an oncoming bus ready to redefine the gainline.

Lawrence Dallaglio, Jason Robinson. Both unbelievably brilliant when on song. I also always liked Borthwick because in 2009 he made sure to go over to BOD and make sure his head was ok after England had lost a tight game and BOD had taken a few knocks.

The player I like most of all though is Big Phil Vickery. The only player who's retirement I dread more that BOD's. Although Big Phil Vickery has a few more years in him yet, I'm sure.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Lawrence Dallaglio, Jason Robinson. Both unbelievably brilliant when on song. I also always liked Borthwick because in 2009 he made sure to go over to BOD and make sure his head was ok after England had lost a tight game and BOD had taken a few knocks.

The player I like most of all though is Big Phil Vickery. The only player who's retirement I dread more that BOD's. Although Big Phil Vickery has a few more years in him yet, I'm sure.

Don't even joke about it, rugby as we know it will never be the same after Big Phil retires.

Metal Tiger wrote:Just want to say well done to everyone on this thread.
It has genuinely been a joy reading all the banter, chat & jokes.

 

Seconded there MT! For favourite England players I must say that just about every forward in/around that 03 squad which I rated extremely highly. Some of the guys had their dumb moments no doubt, and Grewcock had enough on his own to make up for half of them! But all really good, tough players with a very good ethic:

1.Woodman, Rowntree
2.Thompson
3.Vickery, Leonard, White
4.Johnson, Shaw
5.Kay, Grewcock
6.Hill, Worsley
7.Back, Moody
8.Dallagio, Corry

I know we get criticised for harping on about that eras side but they were a bloody tough bunch!

For favourite Irish players BOD has always been near the top of my rugby idols. As a Tigers fan I have to say Geordan Murphy was sublime at times. POC and David Wallace also demand respect for their role in some very good packs.

From the current side I'd just say it's a shame Ferris has spent so much time injured as a few years ago he was the best blindside in the world IMO and a great player to watch in action. Healy and SOB are wrecking balls as well though and Rob Kearneys aerial skills are truly outstanding.

Still very much a case of having to believe in English promise from a young side against continued excellence from a settled and unbeaten side with some great names there. Home advantage will help but will it be enough? Can we improve that much for 80 minutes? I think we'll need to.

Ireland definite favourites now, for me. If our scrum struggles we're in big trouble and it's been under pressure. But that's the fun thing with promise: if we DO put it together we could win big. Heart definitely says we could

I was having a laugh yesterday with some Irish lads who work for the local council. They're repairing the road at the end of our street and we got talking about the forthcoming clash. All the usual jokes & wind ups. Lovely bunch of lads. it's so nice to see WestLife getting regular work again.

Cowshot wrote:Still very much a case of having to believe in English promise from a young side against continued excellence from a settled and unbeaten side with some great names there. Home advantage will help but will it be enough? Can we improve that much for 80 minutes? I think we'll need to.

Ireland definite favourites now, for me. If our scrum struggles we're in big trouble and it's been under pressure. But that's the fun thing with promise: if we DO put it together we could win big. Heart definitely says we could

Hi cowshot; I debunked the idea that England are a "young" side a while back by showing that the average ages, max and min are roughly identical to most other top 8 nations. It's really just part of the larger spin of excuse making and a way to present themselves with their favoured underdog tag.

Engine#4 wrote:Jonny Wilkinson.  Forget the kicks, England's outhalf channel was not so much a dead end as a lane with an oncoming bus ready to redefine the gainline.

Welcome to the forum mr inverdale!

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Cowshot wrote:Still very much a case of having to believe in English promise from a young side against continued excellence from a settled and unbeaten side with some great names there. Home advantage will help but will it be enough? Can we improve that much for 80 minutes? I think we'll need to.

Ireland definite favourites now, for me. If our scrum struggles we're in big trouble and it's been under pressure. But that's the fun thing with promise: if we DO put it together we could win big. Heart definitely says we could

Hi cowshot; I debunked the idea that England are a "young" side a while back by showing that the average ages, max and min are roughly identical to most other top 8 nations. It's really just part of the larger spin of excuse making and a way to present themselves with their favoured underdog tag.

Maybe "young" is the wrong word but this England side is certainly inexperienced in terms of the number of caps and the number of times the combinations have played together. Lancaster is clearly aiming to be more like the ABs in the long run, in the sense of having a settled core side into which he can regularly introduce new players without disrupting the patterns but is still only in the early stages of building that.

From memory, only Corbs, Hartley, Cole, Wood, B Youngs, Care and Tuilagi from the current squad went to the previous RWC, and only Hartley, Cole and Tuilagi were regular starters then and now (Corbs would be if he were fit for any length of time, Wood should have been). There aren't many teams with that little continuity from the last cycle.

Poorfour wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Cowshot wrote:Still very much a case of having to believe in English promise from a young side against continued excellence from a settled and unbeaten side with some great names there. Home advantage will help but will it be enough? Can we improve that much for 80 minutes? I think we'll need to.

Ireland definite favourites now, for me. If our scrum struggles we're in big trouble and it's been under pressure. But that's the fun thing with promise: if we DO put it together we could win big. Heart definitely says we could

Hi cowshot; I debunked the idea that England are a "young" side a while back by showing that the average ages, max and min are roughly identical to most other top 8 nations. It's really just part of the larger spin of excuse making and a way to present themselves with their favoured underdog tag.

Maybe "young" is the wrong word but this England side is certainly inexperienced in terms of the number of caps and the number of times the combinations have played together. Lancaster is clearly aiming to be more like the ABs in the long run, in the sense of having a settled core side into which he can regularly introduce new players without disrupting the patterns but is still only in the early stages of building that.

From memory, only Corbs, Hartley, Cole, Wood, B Youngs, Care and Tuilagi from the current squad went to the previous RWC, and only Hartley, Cole and Tuilagi were regular starters then and now (Corbs would be if he were fit for any length of time, Wood should have been). There aren't many teams with that little continuity from the last cycle.

That's just not so. The exodus from even the All Blacks following the last RWC - Hore, Williams, SB Williams, Kaino, Kahui, Muliaiina, brad thorn, and so on.

The starting line up for the RWC final shares only 6 players in common withy the starting line up for NZ's last game. And it would've been 5 had DC not been injured in 2011. Sounds like a very similar state to England.

This game will be exceedingly close but I think with the home advantage that England will win. If Murray can bully Danny Care (unlikely) early on and put him on the back foot then Ireland stand a better chance. Care's organising of Burrell's lines is something that will cause Ireland no end of troubles.