England vs Ireland, Part 2

First topic message reminder :

For continuing discussion of Ireland vs England in Round 3 of the Six Nations

Previous thread; https://www.606v2.com/t51752-england-vs-ireland

Ireland have released various players to the provinces; starting for Ulster against the Scarlets on Friday are Paddy Jackson, Luke Marshall, Darren Cave and Iain Henderson. Leinster have named Jack McGrath, Sean Cronin, Martin Moore, Mike McCarthy, Rhys Ruddock, Jordi Murphy, Eoin Reddan, Ian Madigan and Fergus McFadden in their team to face Newport-Gwent Dragons. Tommy O'Donnell and Felix Jones will feature for Munster.

There's a lot of competition, mainly for the spots on the bench and possible starts later in the tournament. Can Madigan oust Paddy Jackson? Can Jordi Murphy or Rhys Ruddock force their way in ahead of Tommy O'Donnell? Can McFadden or Simon Zebo force their way into the back three? Who will replace the injured Dan Tuohy; Iain Henderson, Mike McCarthy or Donnacha Ryan? The latter is back from injury and likely to play some part for Munster.

Dan Tuohy has been ruled out of the tournament while Keith Earls, Luke Fitzgerald and Tommy Bowe are still injured and everyone is praying Johnny Sexton doesn't pick up a knock; he's expected to be riding the pine for Racing Metro.

Any English posters want to update us on their squad?

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:Two well-matched teams at the moment (though England with more potential).

Home advantage will swing it England's way by around 10.

How do England have more "potential" and what does that even mean?

Bunch of old gits on the way to their last hurrah versus a young side, already doing pretty well with an upwards curve ahead of them.

Average ages are something like 29 vs 24 isn't it?

Do Ireland need a Triple Crown lure to get up for a Game that if they win will put them very much in a GS driving seat?
Ireland will be thinking Championship first - and last.  And if that motivation is good enough then the Triple Crown will take care of itself.
If the players think Triple Crown they'll be letting themselves and their coach down.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:Two well-matched teams at the moment (though England with more potential).

Home advantage will swing it England's way by around 10.

How do England have more "potential" and what does that even mean?

Bunch of old gits on the way to their last hurrah versus a young side, already doing pretty well with an upwards curve ahead of them.

Average ages are something like 29 vs 24 isn't it?

The average age of the Ireland team is 29 which isnt that old and the average of the bench is 25 which is quite young.

Just because a player is young doesnt guarentee they will get better.

In a year, we'll have as much potential as England when our older guys retire and some of these incredibly talented young guys we have in reserve come in so I don't put too much store in that tbh.

GunsGerms wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:I haven't seen a single English pundit who think Ireland will win. I have seen just one Irish pundit who thinks England will win.

Is there anyone on this thread who thinks their side will lose tomorrow?

No, Ireland are going to win. England are 4-6 Ireland 6-4. The bookies are predicting a close game but I reckon Ireland going for a triple crown, gathering momentum with a lot to prove under an incredibly detail orientated coach will be too much for an England side whose two best players are missing through injury.

England are also going for the Triple Crown, also have a lot to prove after France etc...

Ireland will win the triple crown if they win this game, England wont, they have another v Wales to play.

Yes England have a lot to prove but reading between the lines Lancaster's focus is very much on 2015. Winning the 6 nations this year is secondary to that.

But they're still going for the Triple crown non the lesss??

And i dont buy this World Cup rubbish, yes they are pushing for that but your deluded if you think England arent bothered about winning this 6n.

SecretFly wrote:Do Ireland need a Triple Crown lure to get up for a Game that if they win will put them very much in a GS driving seat?
Ireland will be thinking Championship first - and last.  And if that motivation is good enough then the Triple Crown will take care of itself.
If the players think Triple Crown they'll be letting themselves and their coach down.

Joe Schmidt has said himself that there is a trophy (triple crown) on the line on Saturday and they will be playing to win it. One game at a time.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:Two well-matched teams at the moment (though England with more potential).

Home advantage will swing it England's way by around 10.

How do England have more "potential" and what does that even mean?

Bunch of old gits on the way to their last hurrah versus a young side, already doing pretty well with an upwards curve ahead of them.

Average ages are something like 29 vs 24 isn't it?

How long have these old gits been on the go though?  And how often have they been told they are past it? And how many of them are old gits?  And should old gits even have two games under their belt in a competition stuffed with young hearted gazelles and pie eating young tanks?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Guscott said England should win as long as Wilson doesnt blow up...

So ireland to win all the way   

Seriously though Notch, i just think this is a difficult game to call. England have been impressive, yet inefficient in scoring opportunities.
Ireland have been structured and efficient.

Might be the case that some individual brilliance decides this one. The question is then who has the most players capable of those?

In the backs: Ireland have older brilliant guys.
In the backs: England have young brilliant guys (and 3 of them v fast)

Oh it is too difficult to call though.

England have a lot of depth and have shown an upward curve in performance levels and style of play.
Ireland are still very much in that inconstant phase.

I know I am English so you can call me biased. But there is hope with England. and there does seem like a plan going on.

With Ireland its all about on the day form still.

Apart from the one game v the the welsh under SL there is positives to take from every single one of SL's games

Careful now Ireland, you don’t want to suffer from the ‘competing with the ABs’ syndrome. When England beat the ABs last year, to many it predicted a surge to a top 2 side. It didn’t – we're a decent team that just played better on the day. Now Ireland lose (just) to the ABs and they are a GS side. Meh, Ireland are decent enough...

We English will sympathize (a bit) if it all comes crashing down – we’re used to false dawns and party-poopers.

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:Two well-matched teams at the moment (though England with more potential).

Home advantage will swing it England's way by around 10.

How do England have more "potential" and what does that even mean?

Bunch of old gits on the way to their last hurrah versus a young side, already doing pretty well with an upwards curve ahead of them.

Average ages are something like 29 vs 24 isn't it?

The average age of the Ireland team is 29 which isnt that old and the average of the bench is 25 which is quite young.

Just because a player is young doesnt guarentee they will get better.

True, but if they can already hold their own at international level there's every chance they will.

It'll be interesting to see if Ireland can grow another 'Golden Generation' with Schmidt as the Sun God.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

But they're still going for the Triple crown non the lesss??

And i dont buy this World Cup rubbish, yes they are pushing for that but your deluded if you think England arent bothered about winning this 6n.

I dont think England arent bothered. They are of course. Maybe its mind games but in a good few of Lancaster's interviews he has made comments like now is the time to bring through players with the world cup in mind and constantly hinting that this years 6 nations is secondary to WC preparation. Was listening to a Keith Wood interview and he was saying that Lancaster has a chart in his office plotting a list of things to acomplish with a view to being in contention for the world cup and that that is England's primary focus.

Yes England are going for a triple crown but surely you can see the difference between playing a game to win the trophy, almost cup final mentality and having two games to go to win it. Not quite as tangable a prospect particularly when you have to play Wales last years champions and therefore probably not even on the England players minds.

GunsGerms wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Do Ireland need a Triple Crown lure to get up for a Game that if they win will put them very much in a GS driving seat?
Ireland will be thinking Championship first - and last.  And if that motivation is good enough then the Triple Crown will take care of itself.
If the players think Triple Crown they'll be letting themselves and their coach down.

Joe Schmidt has said himself that there is a trophy (triple crown) on the line on Saturday and they will be playing to win it. One game at a time.

Joe says a lot of stuff to 'lower expectation'.  He took the job though because he felt he had the ammo (players and systems) to go much further than a Triple Crown.  They'll say Triple Crown - top two position is the real goal though.  So far so good.
I don't mind you bringing up the Triple Crown, Guns (everyone to their own likes) - it's just that personally I'm repulsed by the idea of it at this stage - it's almost like the Calcutta Cup.  England were almost embarrassed to go upstairs and get it.

Yes i can see what your saying.

I was merely replying to your previous post by saying we too are at the same stage...still can win the triple crown, the 6n, we have a lot to prove etc.

Personally I expect the England back row to have a huge day tomorrow. Nobody has talked about Robshaw at all and yet he is a very canny player.

And I dont see much real danger in Ireland outside a very organised pack and Sexton's kicking game. Those things are great, but they dont have a team that can pull a try out of nowhere like France did. If their forwards can be contained I dont think it will matter how many alternate plans they have. I also think there is a great deal of pressure on those experience Irish shoulders. Last year they were playing at home and dealt with that pressure very badly, and now they are playing away.

Interesting times. If we can avoid going more than a score down early on and avoid the worst of the last 20 brainfarts that we are so good at I expect a decent English victory.

Ireland seem strong in the scrum, solid in the midfield and have real attacking threat in the back 3. Sexton is playing beautifully at present. They are settled with a good blend of youth and experience, and Irish sides often seem to do particularly well under a new coach for some reason.

In contrast, England seem a bit inconsistent to me, a bit naïve and lacking the experience that yer POCs and BODs bring with them. Key injuries, too. Talented - yes, exciting - yes. But if I had to bet I'd put my money on Ireland at the moment.

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:Two well-matched teams at the moment (though England with more potential).

Home advantage will swing it England's way by around 10.

How do England have more "potential" and what does that even mean?

Bunch of old gits on the way to their last hurrah versus a young side, already doing pretty well with an upwards curve ahead of them.

Average ages are something like 29 vs 24 isn't it?

The average age of the Ireland team is 29 which isnt that old and the average of the bench is 25 which is quite young.

Just because a player is young doesnt guarentee they will get better.

True, but if they can already hold their own at international level there's every chance they will.

It'll be interesting to see if Ireland can grow another 'Golden Generation' with Schmidt as the Sun God.

There is no such thing as a golden generation. We had two standout players BOD and POC and the rest were really good too but there was no depth and weakness in one or two positions. These days we have as many Lions tourists as ever, as many European player of the year winners and world player of the year nominees as ever and possibly at least three players who are the best or close to being the best in their position in the world. Sexton, Healy and O'Brien. Thats as many as any Ireland team has ever had. There is depth in every position.

If anything this Ireland team has more depth that any team ever. The thing is though England, Wales and Scotland have also improved beyond recognition from the teams that made Ireland winning a triple crown feel like a fairly meagre achievement in the mid '00s.

mystiroakey wrote:England have a lot of depth and have shown an upward curve in performance levels and style of play.
Ireland are still very much in that inconstant phase.

I know I am English so you can call me biased. But there is hope with England. and there does seem like a plan going on.

With Ireland its all about on the day form still.

Apart from the one game v the the welsh under SL there is positives to take from every single one of SL's games

Mystir proves my point.  The Ireland of the last number of years is in his brain - not the idea that we now have the new coaching set up that England have benefitted from now for 2 years, is it?  
England are brewing nicely...but Ireland ain't the Ireland that showed up last year either.  We're now at the same beginning England were at -

It mightn't work or gell fully this season - but Ireland will not be playing like a Kidney team into the future.  Guaranteed.

mystiroakey wrote:England have a lot of depth and have shown an upward curve in performance levels and style of play.
Ireland are still very much in that inconstant phase.

I know I am English so you can call me biased. But there is hope with England. and there does seem like a plan going on.

With Ireland its all about on the day form still.

Apart from the one game v the the welsh + Steve Walsh under SL there is positives to take from every single one of SL's games

Just had the urge to edit that Mystir, but agree on SL's form.

Lets hope Steve Walsh doesnt have as big an influence as he usually does. I genuinely cant stand the guy and he should be nowhere near being an international ref.

LIW, Robshaw has been excellent...just getting on in tandem with Wood doing their jobs allowing Vunipola the freedom to get hold of that ball. Mind Vunipola has impressed with his workrate, tackling etc aswell.

SecretFly wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:England have a lot of depth and have shown an upward curve in performance levels and style of play.
Ireland are still very much in that inconstant phase.

I know I am English so you can call me biased. But there is hope with England. and there does seem like a plan going on.

With Ireland its all about on the day form still.

Apart from the one game v the the welsh under SL there is positives to take from every single one of SL's games

Mystir proves my point.  The Ireland of the last number of years is in his brain - not the idea that we now have the new coaching set up that England have benefitted from now for 2 years, is it?  
England are brewing nicely...but Ireland ain't the Ireland that showed up last year either.  We're now at the same beginning England were at -

It mightn't work or gell fully this season - but Ireland will not be playing like a Kidney team into the future.  Guaranteed.

Its good to see positivity from you and the irish team.

You are at the beginning of your rebuilding phase- we are at the point where we are only a few games away from the rebuilding to end and become the team we hope to be.

There is only so long you can use the rebuilding line!!! AT one point it has to end and you have to say- that's it - judge us on wins only!

I doubt Walsh will have much of an influence in tomorrow's game.

This 6n is post the Lions tour, so this normally favours those nations not involved in the Lions.
So it's England and France to win this weekend.

jelly wrote:I doubt Walsh will have much of an influence in tomorrow's game.

Ah have i been a doughnut...ive got it in my head that Walsh was our ref tomorrow?

Who is it?

The "golden generation" was more a reaction to the fact that Ireland were completely pants in the 90's, and then had a good side, if not a great one, in the 00s.

I actually think the current Ireland crop are every bit as good as the group in the mid-00s. Yes, POC and BOD were in their pomp back then, but I don't think POC has dropped off much personally, and whilst BOD certainly has, Healy, SOB and Sexton are each superb players, and there is a secondary group of Best, POM, Heaslip, COM and Kearney providing consistency at a high level. The younger crop is also extremely promising, particularly Moore and McGrath, covering positions in which Ireland have tended to struggle, and Wallace, Madigan, Hanrahan and Zebo (plus in my view Gilroy) provide a cluster of really exciting talent.

So, my tuppence worth in this debate, is that Ireland are every bit as "promising" as England. Both have good cause for optimism going forward, and both seem to have a strong head coach (no coincidence there) overseeing it all.

I think the sides are very evenly matched for the weekend. I think Ireland will win, purely down to the shrewdness at the breakdown and tackle area. England have some big hitters, but Ireland box clever. I don't see a winning margin of more than 5 points.

Joubert isnt it? Walsh is rumored to be one of the assistants.

Bloody typical if Joubert got injured and Walsh had to take over   

jelly wrote:I doubt Walsh will have much of an influence in tomorrow's game.

No the great maestro is being saved until the end.

by GloriousEmpire on Sat 15 Feb - 17:02
On form, the six nations will be a call between unbeaten France and Ireland. The "grand final" will be the last match played and similarly to last years climax between England and Wales, Steve Walsh has been handed the honours.

IRB list has got Roman Poite and Leighton Hodges as touch judges. Walsh is doing the wooden spoon decider according to that, as well as the Grand Slam decider in a few weeks - those IRB boys really must think he's the best.

So hes in charge of the last game?

How? He's appalling!

See the GE thread on it. He's never likely to be well thought of by England fans given the various run ins that he's had with the team over the years but someone somewhere (apart from GE) obviously rates him.

I was just thinking that apart from Owens and maybe Poite there aren't many good refs around at present. Then it occurred to me that there are never that many good refs around. Owens is head and shoulders above the rest imo. Walsh though seems to me to be consistently the worst ref I've ever seen at international level. Is there any side in world rugby that thinks, "Oh good! We've got Walsh reffing us"?

Jelly

Im not showing a dislike on a purely England bias either. I just think he's a horrendous ref. The game is supposed to be about the players and the best refs go almost unoticed like Owens who i think is the best in the world.

BUt when Walsh is on...its almost like hes the center of attention.

Speaking of experience vs youth. Ireland and England have different systems in bringing players through. Look at the U20 match tomorrow night and you'll see a big size difference. Therefore English players are ready at a younger age but probably burn out quicker than the Irish players because of that and their clubs overplaying them. Also England have more players to pick from so they're always changing the team.

Lancaster also has one eye on the world cup while Ireland as always are instructed to go all out for the 6 nations. Thats advantage for Ireland.

profitius wrote:Lancaster also has one eye on the world cup while Ireland as always are instructed to go all out for the 6 nations. Thats advantage for Ireland.

Ireland's World Cup record does rather suggest they target the 6 Nations.

profitius wrote:Speaking of experience vs youth. Ireland and England have different systems in bringing players through. Look at the U20 match tomorrow night and you'll see a big size difference. Therefore English players are ready at a younger age but probably burn out quicker than the Irish players because of that and their clubs overplaying them. Also England have more players to pick from so they're always changing the team.

Lancaster also has one eye on the world cup while Ireland as always are instructed to go all out for the 6 nations. Thats advantage for Ireland.

I think we have been guilty in tha past of using our size in the age groups...and this catches up with us in the senior levels....however watching the recent England u20 v Scotland u20 i was amazed at the creativty and skills of many on show. Nick Tompkins the Sarries centre is an example of that, he was outstanding...as was our Falcons winger Kibirige.

The pack still had huge size but the backs looked classy. I think the academys are really starting to work now, and there is a change in the mentality of the age group managers away from just bludgeoning with our larger size.

profitius wrote:Speaking of experience vs youth. Ireland and England have different systems in bringing players through. Look at the U20 match tomorrow night and you'll see a big size difference. Therefore English players are ready at a younger age but probably burn out quicker than the Irish players because of that and their clubs overplaying them. Also England have more players to pick from so they're always changing the team.

Lancaster also has one eye on the world cup while Ireland as always are instructed to go all out for the 6 nations. Thats advantage for Ireland.

"Ready at a younger age" - England routinely select the biggest players (most physically advanced) at under age level rather than the best players IMO.

Cyril wrote:

profitius wrote:Lancaster also has one eye on the world cup while Ireland as always are instructed to go all out for the 6 nations. Thats advantage for Ireland.

Ireland's World Cup record does rather suggest they target the 6 Nations.

Englands record at the last world cup and recent record v Wales suggests they should probably target the six nations too.

Have been reading some newspaper stuff on last build-up day.  Butterflies beginning to flutter in my stomach now.

Glory or gloom.

All is not lost if Ireland lose.  I've said from the start that performance will be my main focus this year.  Scotland - very iffy.  Wales - much better; and the 'boring' bit (that some people have spoken about before) is that they made it look easy to cut the head of the Welsh Hydra.  So easy that - yep, it probably did look boring for the neutrals.

England have to win to keep in the competition, to hold onto Fortress mentality, to keep Ireland sides beneath them in what they mentally expect from such encounters.  They can't afford not to come at us and inflict their game on us (they have a rhythm that seems not only effective but also necessary for their gameplans to work)  can they work effectively if forced into a slower rhythm?

Anyway - all guns blazing from England.  A slight ability/cushion to hold something back for France for the Irish.

WARNING: there was a lot said about the 'epic' game that was supposed to be the Welsh/Irish encounter in advance of the game.  "The best game of the Championship"
So...just be cautious about us all building up this one beyond what it delivers too.  It could be a damp squib...nothing is written until it is written.

I'm gone until tomorrow.  Enjoy the chat

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:

profitius wrote:Lancaster also has one eye on the world cup while Ireland as always are instructed to go all out for the 6 nations. Thats advantage for Ireland.

Ireland's World Cup record does rather suggest they target the 6 Nations.

Englands record at the last world cup and recent record v Wales suggests they should probably target the six nations too.

You could be right. The quarters is a poor stage to go out. For some nations that's their pinnacle of their progress in the history this tournament though

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:

profitius wrote:Lancaster also has one eye on the world cup while Ireland as always are instructed to go all out for the 6 nations. Thats advantage for Ireland.

Ireland's World Cup record does rather suggest they target the 6 Nations.

Englands record at the last world cup and recent record v Wales suggests they should probably target the six nations too.

You could be right. The quarters is a poor stage to go out. For some nations that's their pinnacle of their progress in the history this tournament though

  

Ireland should win this at a canter. All England fans can realistically afford to hope for is that the team use their status as significant underdogs to play a carefree attacking game and give us something to cheer for.

Its a collection of callow and frankly sub standard youths (with a couple of decent if not world class players) against the battle hardened flair of Ireland. A david and goliath mismatch. Thank god its a twickers otherwise we would be in serious sword-putting-to territory.

I know you are wumming slightly guns. But even if you weren't its a home world cup. So even if we were a third rate team the target would still be 2015

Jimpy wrote:

Cyril wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:

profitius wrote:Lancaster also has one eye on the world cup while Ireland as always are instructed to go all out for the 6 nations. Thats advantage for Ireland.

Ireland's World Cup record does rather suggest they target the 6 Nations.

Englands record at the last world cup and recent record v Wales suggests they should probably target the six nations too.

You could be right. The quarters is a poor stage to go out. For some nations that's their pinnacle of their progress in the history this tournament though

  

Quarters would be a good result for England when in a group with Australia and Wales. Two teams capable of beating England.

mystiroakey wrote:I know you are wumming slightly guns. But even if you weren't its a home world cup. So even if we were a third rate team the target would still be 2015

How am I "wumming"? I said England's target was the world cup. England also have the hardest group out of all groups. Home or not they face two teams that are more than capable of beating England in Twickers. Nothing contraversial there.

Cyril wrote:

profitius wrote:Lancaster also has one eye on the world cup while Ireland as always are instructed to go all out for the 6 nations. Thats advantage for Ireland.

Ireland's World Cup record does rather suggest they target the 6 Nations.

What does our 6 Nations record suggest we target  

It suggests we should give up.

GunsGerms wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:I know you are wumming slightly guns. But even if you weren't its a home world cup. So even if we were a third rate team the target would still be 2015

How am I "wumming"? I said England's target was the world cup. England also have the hardest group out of all groups. Home or not they face two teams that are more than capable of beating England in Twickers. Nothing contraversial there.

you said we shouldn't target the world cup.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Cyril wrote:

profitius wrote:Lancaster also has one eye on the world cup while Ireland as always are instructed to go all out for the 6 nations. Thats advantage for Ireland.

Ireland's World Cup record does rather suggest they target the 6 Nations.

What does our 6 Nations record suggest we target  

Nah, you've got a good number of Triple Crowns. Not this year though lads.

Mickado wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

littlejohn wrote:From an entertainment perpsective I hope its a bit open but we all know deep down it will be a game for the purists. There is probably heightened expectation that ireland will dominate because of the scrum but know it will be about winning collisions, stopping mauls and dominating rucks.

If I was schmidt I'd change the focus. Kicking behind the centres and force turnovers, expand a bit more with the offloading game and shift emphasis away from the ruck.

If I was lancaster I'd continue to bring burrell and back 3 into the game and use irelands patterns against them. Ie use the maul as a weapon, clever use of boot to force turnovers inside irelands half and attack irelands lineout.

I cant call it so going for a draw now...

How wise is attacking Ireland's lineout? Most lineouts won in the 6 nations. Basically that is what Wales tried to do and as a result they werent set in time to defend against Ireland's maul. Ireland have scored 4 tries from the maul so far. Is attacking the lineout really that smart?

Actually, England have won the most lineouts on their own throw in the 6nations (35) Ireland have won second most (28). Ireland have 5 opposition steals to Englands 4, no other team has more than 2.

I said Ireland had won most lineouts. They have won more than England anyway. They have won 57 whereas England have won 52.

mystiroakey wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:I know you are wumming slightly guns. But even if you weren't its a home world cup. So even if we were a third rate team the target would still be 2015

How am I "wumming"? I said England's target was the world cup. England also have the hardest group out of all groups. Home or not they face two teams that are more than capable of beating England in Twickers. Nothing contraversial there.

you said we shouldn't target the world cup.

No I said Englands group and previous WC suggests they shouldnt target the WC in response to one of Cyril's "lighthearted" posts. If you read back you will see that my opinion is that Lancaster is very much targeting the WC. He will be under enormous pressure to preform at a home WC.