Dan Cole

Out of the tournament apparently.

WHY?

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/feb/16/dan-cole-england-six-nations-ireland

Arghhbhhhhgdgctkmgdxfrs15/4£&?;/fedfhdtj

may explain scrummaging issue recently. I was thinking we were going to beat ireland, i'm not so sure yet.

He looked ok at the Tigers game today signing autographs.

Lets hope it is not long term.

I see in that article that since he started his international career he has missed a sum total of one game in 45...

Short term its horrendous news. For England we could have done with this coming up in a few weeks. But long term it might be good news

Oh...Thomas...Oi...l. Thomassss..... Get yourself ready! Wilson looked well well short of the pace at the weekend which means who for the bench?

Very sad for Dan but this explains his below par performance of late. I can think any fit prop will perform better than Dan. It should not be too much of a problem. Keep calm and carry on.

Surprised he even attempted to play on through an injury like that, must have been really painful.

I said he is so important to the English team, I wold pray that Dave Wilson comes back quick because their is no chance of a platform from a scrum otherwise. Can't rely on Henry Thomas, far far far from the big stage yet.

Good luck to him though, anyone know how ling his leave, planet rugby say he is taking time off rugby to fix it. Doesn't sound like a short term injury

A neck injury like this could take until September to heal. That's looking on the bright side.

Phil Vickery your time has come!!

It has been a huge benefit to Wales having unfortunately suffered injuries to important players like Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Martyn Williams, AWJ, Warburton and every time it has created opportunity for new players to gain experience.

Picking players without match fitness is a bad idea. Look at the side Wales picked last game vs Ireland and how we suffered for it.

Cole will be a huge loss, Henry Thomas getting game time in meaningful internationals will be a huge benefit

Maybe this is an opportunity for everyone to reconsider the amount of rugby we're expecting our players to endure.

There is a reason why the NFL season is so short and why the All Blacks appear to be able to perform at higher levels of performance.

I doubt the English professional season will be restructured anytime soon, however for me no one should be playing more than 25 games a season (30mins + constitutes a game).

I know Kieran Read was injured for a part of last year, but the fact is he was voted irb player of the year on the back of how many appearances?

Its about time the RPA got a grip.

kingelderfield wrote:Maybe this is an opportunity for everyone to reconsider the amount of rugby we're expecting our players to endure.

There is a reason why the NFL season is so short and why the All Blacks appear to be able to perform at higher levels of performance.

I doubt the English professional season will be restructured anytime soon, however for me no one should be playing more than 25 games a season (30mins + constitutes a game).

I know Kieran Read was injured for a part of last year, but the fact is he was voted irb player of the year on the back of how many appearances?

Its about time the RPA got a grip.  

I agree. But the money men of France and England don't. Particularly France. And they pay the biggest wages. I've heard French club owners say they want more games from their players, not less. The Irish even sometimes get mocked here because they don't play all their best players in every Rabo game. Europe isn't going to come around to the more enlightened ways of working in the southern hemisphere any time soon. If anything it's going to get worse as club owners get more of a grip on the running of the game.

If you look through all the spin of the European rugby row it comes down to this. The club owners know they flog their players with to many games to make more money. They know the Rabo (particularly the Irish) don't. The think this gives the Irish an unfair advantage. So they've fought to bring in rules that they hope will force the Rabo teams to flog their players with to many games too. Rather than see the advantage the Rabo teams have created and change their system to gain the same advantage and raise the quality of their game to a higher standard, they're fighting to try and drag Rabo (particularly Irish) sides down to their level.

I am not optimistic about the future of European rugby.

Sorry for going off the threads topic. Hope Cole recovers quickly and gets back to his best.

maestegmafia wrote:It has been a huge benefit to Wales having unfortunately suffered injuries to important players like Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones, Martyn Williams, AWJ, Warburton and every time it has created opportunity for new players to gain experience.

Picking players without match fitness is a bad idea. Look at the side Wales picked last game vs Ireland and how we suffered for it.

Cole will be a huge loss, Henry Thomas getting game time in meaningful internationals will be a huge benefit

That would be good, except Thomas is in reality about fifth choice and not particularly good, he'll get experience but I don't expect him to be around the England team much after this tournament.

Feckless Rogue wrote: The Irish even sometimes get mocked here because they don't play all their best players in every Rabo game.

I'm not sure they get mocked for it - people just claim that it can give them an advantage when it comes to Heineken Cup time

And so the nightmare continues. Our best back (arguably) - Manu, is out. And now joined by our best forward - Cole. We've already lost our best LH and 2 (count them, 2) wingers. Even our replacements are getting injured (Wilson, May's hooter...). Now all we need is to lose one or more of OF, Robshaw, Wood and Hartley and the nightmare is complete. Perhaps we should play the Saxons for the rest of the competition.

Cole has looked jaded for most of this tournament and only looked like he was playing at 60%- 70%. I put it down to him being knackered from the amount of rugby he's been playing, but perhaps it is because this injury has been developing? I don't know enough about it to say.

This is a rod that England have built for their own back though. How long have we been saying 'We need to find proper back up' and 'We're one injury away from trouble'? Surely we can nix the idea of Henry Thomas starting? He just isn't experienced enough and often gets beaten up at Premiership level.

Wilson surely must start. He didn't look great against Exeter, but he's been pretty good for the last year or so. Indeed, I seem to remember having an argument with someone on here about whether he should be starting ahead of Cole during the AI's. Lets just hope he can get up to speed quickly.

I am still fairly confident because no offence to Ireland, come scrum time I am more worried about the matches against Wales and Italy.

I would say Thomas has to start based on Wilson at the weekend.

So Henry Thomas will start. Oh well i wish the lad luck but Cian Heally is going to be rubbing his hands now.

Does that mean Scott Wilson or Brookes could be promoted as the Saxons props...or will Davy Wilson be rushed back.

The reports I've read seem to be favouring Wilson rather than Thomas.

Davy Wilson to start? Interesting doesnt say much for Thomas then if they'd rather rush Wilson back.

Wilson was terrible at the weekend

I'm hoping that with a full week of training with the squad Wilson can get up to sufficient speed for the weekend, definitely don't want Henry Thomas starting.

Brookes wouldn't be the worst option either tbh

Pity for Cole.... alledgedly an overly worked beast of burden and an overly relied upon one.  Echoes for Ireland and their one time "Undroppable" Hayes...who was then replaced by another undroppable in Ross.

So we know the story and we know the deal...but at least we've had the age old excuse of "small player pool".  It's surprising though how much England (and evidently his own side Leicester) have relied on him, when surely there are one or two good alternatives there in 12 sides to give him a break?

Thomas is a dreadful scrummager.

As average as Healy is in the scrum he'd murder Thomas.

D Wilson or Brookes to start/bench

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Thomas is a dreadful scrummager.

As average as Healy is in the scrum he'd murder Thomas.

D Wilson or Brookes to start/bench

Healy is definitely not an average scrummager. For me is the complete prop right now. If he is up against an inexperienced prop or an unfit one then they will be in for a tough day at the office.

SecretFly wrote:Pity for Cole.... alledgedly an overly worked beast of burden and an overly relied upon one.  Echoes for Ireland and their one time "Undroppable" Hayes...who was then replaced by another undroppable in Ross.

So we know the story and we know the deal...but at least we've had the age old excuse of "small player pool".  It's surprising though how much England (and evidently his own side Leicester) have relied on him, when surely there are one or two good alternatives there in 12 sides to give him a break?

Nobody has said that. Cole is a very good prop when on form, and those are always in short supply. He has also been super reliable so no changes have been forced until now. There are lots of options, but generally they have either been injured (Wilson, the obvious replacement) or too green and unproven (the many).

doctornickolas wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Thomas is a dreadful scrummager.

As average as Healy is in the scrum he'd murder Thomas.

D Wilson or Brookes to start/bench

Healy is definitely not an average scrummager. For me is the complete prop right now. If he is up against an inexperienced prop or an unfit one then they will be in for a tough day at the office.

Totally disagree. Healy is a very average Int scrummager, his standout work comes outside the set piece. He's a very good player but not a strong scrummager.

lostinwales wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Pity for Cole.... alledgedly an overly worked beast of burden and an overly relied upon one.  Echoes for Ireland and their one time "Undroppable" Hayes...who was then replaced by another undroppable in Ross.

So we know the story and we know the deal...but at least we've had the age old excuse of "small player pool".  It's surprising though how much England (and evidently his own side Leicester) have relied on him, when surely there are one or two good alternatives there in 12 sides to give him a break?

Nobody has said that. Cole is a very good prop when on form, and those are always in short supply. He has also been super reliable so no changes have been forced until now. There are lots of options, but generally they have either been injured (Wilson, the obvious replacement) or too green and unproven (the many).

That highlighted bit was Not my point.  The point is that people have being saying that this man looks a little ragged and a little tired and is under the weather performance-wise even before this injury declaration.  If fans have being seeing that, then surely his coaches (club and International) should have been seeing it?  And if they have being seeing it, there must be some alternative there in the English system to give him a break?

You say some are green and some are unproven but that's the call you have to make if a player needs his batteries re-charged and there are alternatives there that need experience to prove they're quality fill-ins.

England must have more leisure to do that than a country like Ireland who do have a real and honest issue with having so few players to work with in comparison to England.  That was my point.

SecretFly wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Pity for Cole.... alledgedly an overly worked beast of burden and an overly relied upon one.  Echoes for Ireland and their one time "Undroppable" Hayes...who was then replaced by another undroppable in Ross.

So we know the story and we know the deal...but at least we've had the age old excuse of "small player pool".  It's surprising though how much England (and evidently his own side Leicester) have relied on him, when surely there are one or two good alternatives there in 12 sides to give him a break?

Nobody has said that. Cole is a very good prop when on form, and those are always in short supply. He has also been super reliable so no changes have been forced until now. There are lots of options, but generally they have either been injured (Wilson, the obvious replacement) or too green and unproven (the many).

That highlighted bit was Not my point.  The point is that people have being saying that this man looks a little ragged and a little tired and is under the weather performance-wise even before this injury declaration.  If fans have being seeing that, then surely his coaches (club and International) should have been seeing it?  And if they have being seeing it, there must be some alternative there in the English system to give him a break?

You say some are green and some are unproven but that's the call you have to make if a player needs his batteries re-charged and there are alternatives there that need experience to prove they're quality fill-ins.

England must have more leisure to do that than a country like Ireland who do have a real and honest issue with having so few players to work with in comparison to England.  That was my point.

No arguments there. For us a ragged a tired Cole is still generally better than the alternatives

Cumbrian wrote:Cole has looked jaded for most of this tournament and only looked like he was playing at 60%- 70%.  I put it down to him being knackered from the amount of rugby he's been playing,  but perhaps it is because this injury has been developing?  I don't know enough about it to say.  

This is a rod that England have built for their own back though.  How long have we been saying 'We need to find proper back up' and 'We're one injury away from trouble'?  Surely we can nix the idea of Henry Thomas starting?  He just isn't experienced enough and often gets beaten up at Premiership level.  

Wilson surely must start.  He didn't look great against Exeter,  but he's been pretty good for the last year or so.  Indeed, I seem to remember having an argument with someone on here about whether he should be starting ahead of Cole during the AI's.  Lets just hope he can get up to speed quickly.

I am still fairly confident because no offence to Ireland, come scrum time I am more worried about the matches against Wales and Italy.

I did advocate Wilson starting the AIs on form and had that been the case we'd have not been in an appreciably better position, Wilson also having been injured.

I disagree that he should start though. He looks like a player in that Ex game, who's been rushed back to duty too early. He could do with three more games before being considered to start for England. Perhaps it was on the say-so of the England management who knows?

Maes makes a good point above that playing players who aren't at full fitness is a mistake.

Thomas should start with one of Wilson, Brookes or S Wilson on the bench in my view. PDJ was taken to the cleaners and Collier is still out I believe. The major positive about Thomas is his carrying and work around the park, it doesn't seem affected by his scrummaging. We can but see.

I agree its too soon for Wilson, not match fit and really needs at least a couple more games under his belt Beer belly!

Scrumpy wrote:I agree its too soon for Wilson, not match fit and really needs at least a couple more games under his belt Beer belly!

Thought I saw him on the oxygen. Or was that Steve Thompson...

Massive loss for England IMO. I reckon he was the key to England's last two wins v Ireland. In 2012 he destroyed the Ireland scrum and in 2013 he was immense all over the park. Possibly England's best player last year. Ireland may even target the scrum now.

Ireland are clear favourites now.

Oh god. This has pretty much ruined the irish match for me. Plus Thomas is going to be traumatised for months after having his head shoved up his backside

I wouldn't go that far.

We'd have certainly had scrum dominance with Cole, I can't see much in it now tbh. Our pack is still better and we're at home.

GunsGerms wrote:Massive loss for England IMO. I reckon he was the key to England's last two wins v Ireland. In 2012 he destroyed the Ireland scrum and in 2013 he was immense all over the park. Possibly England's best player last year. Ireland may even target the scrum now.

Agree that it's a big loss and I would expect Ireland to target that area now. How much change they'll get from that I don't know. They're not the best scrummaging unit out there but the experience of Healy, Best and Ross may well tell against Thomas as the likely starter.

If Corbs were fit I might feel better about it.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I wouldn't go that far.

We'd have certainly had scrum dominance with Cole, I can't see much in it now tbh. Our pack is still better and we're at home.

We shall see   

I think we definitely have the front row and I would not swop Henry and POM at the breakdown.
Add POC and looking good in my opinion

Having said that I recognise that the English 2nd row could cause Toner problems and Vunipola is a handful.

4 to 8 about even I'd say but front row is advantage Ireland

He is probably my favourite England player at the moment so its a shame he is missing. Very smart rugby player. Under rated IMO.

Hartley is a step above Best this season, I'd take Healy over Marler though. I don't rate Ross at all though, Wilson even half fit is superior.

I've got us down for all front 5 positions bar Healy and I'd take all our current backrow options too.

Hartley this season is a step above Hartley last season but I wouldn't trade Best for anyone. Very under rated player.

When he can throw straight!

I think Best and Youngs must train together.

POM is playing well actually, him and Wood would be a close shout.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:When he can throw straight!

I think Best and Youngs must train together.

POM is playing well actually, him and Wood would be a close shout.

Bests throwing is never an issue when POC is playing. Ireland lead the lineout percentages in this years 6n and they also had the top percentage last season in the 6 nations even without POC. That would be hard to achieve if you cant throw.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Hartley is a step above Best this season, I'd take Healy over Marler though. I don't rate Ross at all though, Wilson even half fit is superior.

I've got us down for all front 5 positions bar Healy and I'd take all our current backrow options too.

Best is playing very well this year and is a much better scrumager than Hartley.
Arrows are going well.

He stats against Wales were 16-1.

I'd take Healy, Best, POC and one of the English 2nd row.
TH - Unless Wilson is fit I'd take Ross.
I do not rate Ross at all but Thomas is worse
Back row I'd take Vunipola plus POM  and Henry.
Henry is not the best of the 6 but he gives the backrow balance, Robshaw, for all his qualities doesn't

GunsGerms wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:When he can throw straight!

I think Best and Youngs must train together.

POM is playing well actually, him and Wood would be a close shout.

Bests throwing is never an issue when POC is playing. Ireland lead the lineout percentages in this years 6n and they also had the top percentage last season in the 6 nations even without POC. That would be hard to achieve if you cant throw.

Surprising if true, as I remember the lineout completely capitulating against Scotland. Best is playing better this season but I'd comfortable have Hartley over him. The props are a different matter.

Hartley is much better than Best this season, it's not a competition.

Wasn't Hartley 20/20 against Scotland?

In a backhanded kind of way this is good news for Cole.  Clearly something was wrong.  We all assumed it was overuse, and I bet that was contributory.  Although it was reported he felt the pressure on the nerve only recently, it could well have been limiting him for some time.  Now the issue is known, he can receive proper treatment and hopefully recover.  

As mentioned above, this once again raises the issue of too many matches.  SANZAR has increased the number of their internationals and also Super Rugby matches.  The Premiership, Top 14, and Celtic League already have too many matches.  We need a global solution and a more rational schedule.