Dan Cole

First topic message reminder :

Out of the tournament apparently.

Even if overwork is a bigger contributor, the rest he'll get now will fix that too

doctor_grey wrote:In a backhanded kind of way this is good news for Cole.  Clearly something was wrong.  We all assumed it was overuse, and I bet that was contributory.  Although it was reported he felt the pressure on the nerve only recently, it could well have been limiting him for some time.  Now the issue is known, he can receive proper treatment and hopefully recover.  

As mentioned above, this once again raises the issue of too many matches.  SANZAR has increased the number of their internationals and also Super Rugby matches.  The Premiership, Top 14, and Celtic League already have too many matches.  We need a global solution and a more rational schedule.

This may appear radical however I just don't see anything changing until the players collectively act, and yes that would mean strike. I don't see this happening anytime soon especially in the South however here in France and England player welfare is realistically low on the priority list.

thomh wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:When he can throw straight!

I think Best and Youngs must train together.

POM is playing well actually, him and Wood would be a close shout.

Bests throwing is never an issue when POC is playing. Ireland lead the lineout percentages in this years 6n and they also had the top percentage last season in the 6 nations even without POC. That would be hard to achieve if you cant throw.

Surprising if true, as I remember the lineout completely capitulating against Scotland. Best is playing better this season but I'd comfortable have Hartley over him. The props are a different matter.

I seemed to remember it capitulating v Scotland too. However I looked it up and Ireland won the lineout battle percentage wise v all opponents except Wales who marginally had a better lineout return in the Ireland v Wales game.

It must be tough for him playing as a prop for england and hooker for new zealand

Any ideas how long he could be out...ie is the championship over for him.

Im not really happy about the thought of Henry Thomas starting

6 nations is over, may be the rest of the season. Wilson will probably take his spot.

These types of injury are variable - from having no symptoms at all to losing all strength in limbs to severe pain.

Hopefully his disc will recede soon enough and relieve the pressure from the nerves.

It's been a while since England worried that losing a player was tantamount to losing a game.

I'm not so pessimistic. We'll still have 15 men on the field against their 15. If our scrum looks like a weak point, then we'll just have to manage it on the field.

thomh wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:When he can throw straight!

I think Best and Youngs must train together.

POM is playing well actually, him and Wood would be a close shout.

Bests throwing is never an issue when POC is playing. Ireland lead the lineout percentages in this years 6n and they also had the top percentage last season in the 6 nations even without POC. That would be hard to achieve if you cant throw.

Surprising if true, as I remember the lineout completely capitulating against Scotland. Best is playing better this season but I'd comfortable have Hartley over him. The props are a different matter.

Scotland was a terrible game but POC wasn't playing.
As Guns stated if POC players and Best players the line out is fine.

We will disagree re Hartley and Best but my guess is Hartleys head will popping up and down out of the scrum like a nodding donkey this weekend , especially with a dodgy TH.
It is a real weakness of his

Sgt_Pooly wrote: Hartley is much better than Best this season,

Clearly you have no watch as many Ulster games as I have Saints games to come up with that opinion. Regardless of who is better (we disagree) to claim one is much better than the other is absurd

Sgt_Pooly wrote:it's not a competition.

  In the context of the previous comment that is a strange thing to say

It depends on Davy Wilsons fitness as to how big a miss Cole is.

He's obviously not going to 100% match fit but if he can put in a good 60 min shift then all the better.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:  Hartley is much better than Best this season,  

Clearly you have no watch as many Ulster games as I have Saints games to come up with that opinion. Regardless of who is better (we disagree) to claim one is much better than the other is absurd

Sgt_Pooly wrote:it's not a competition.

  In the context of the previous comment that is a strange thing to say

I've probably seen as many Ulster games as I have Saints.

Hartley is having a hell if a season both domestically and Internationally. Best's throwing is still a weakness imo

geoff999rugby wrote:

thomh wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:When he can throw straight!

I think Best and Youngs must train together.

POM is playing well actually, him and Wood would be a close shout.

Bests throwing is never an issue when POC is playing. Ireland lead the lineout percentages in this years 6n and they also had the top percentage last season in the 6 nations even without POC. That would be hard to achieve if you cant throw.

Surprising if true, as I remember the lineout completely capitulating against Scotland. Best is playing better this season but I'd comfortable have Hartley over him. The props are a different matter.

Scotland was a terrible game but POC wasn't playing.
As Guns stated if POC players and Best players the line out is fine.

We will disagree re Hartley and Best but my guess is Hartleys head will popping up and down out of the scrum like a nodding donkey this weekend , especially with a dodgy TH.
It is a real weakness of his

I was responding to Guns' claim that the Irish lineout "had the top percentage last season in the 6 nations even without POC". Therefore not sure how the fact that POC wasn't playing is relevant.

In any case, I would be suspicious of any claim that a hooker's form in basically dependant on the presence of one second row when there are other perfectly capable lineout options around, particularly when they don't even play together at club level. If Hartley was struggling in the lineout at the moment then no-one would suggest that it was because he was having to throw to Lawes instead of Parling. Best is a good player but I don't see that his end of season/Lions form can be plausibly blamed on not having his favourite second rows to throw to.

No...but it might be put down to bad form?

Every player, if he has played long enough, has a run of it a few times.

geoff998rugby wrote:
I'd take Healy, Best, POC and one of the English 2nd row.
TH - Unless Wilson is fit I'd take Ross.
I do not rate Ross at all but Thomas is worse
Back row I'd take Vunipola plus POM  and Henry.
Henry is not the best of the 6 but he gives the backrow balance, Robshaw, for all his qualities doesn't

Firstly, why is everyone comparing tighthead with tighthead and loosehead with loosehead? The key question seems to be which loosehead is more likely to create problems for the opposing tighthead. If Cole were fit and playing, I'd say that would be tipped in England's favour. With him out, it's an unknown quantity.

We know more about Marler and Ross. Marler probably isn't as good as Healey (yet) but his scrummaging has improved a lot this year and Ross is not a brilliant scrummager himself. Added to which, they will know a fair amount about each other's game from Ross's time at Quins, but Marler's has probably changed more in the time they've been apart.

Whoever starts for England, all we really know is that Healy will probably have the edge. We don't know how Thomas or Wilson will handle him. But my point is that all they really need to do is hold out slightly longer than Ross - and whether they can do that is a big unknown.

And Geoff, if you don't think Robshaw gives balance, you've been watching a different team from the one I have. Wood, Robshaw and Vunipola are probably the most balanced back row England have had since 2003, albeit in a very different way from the Unholy Trinity. Robshaw and Wood are balanced because they both have a strong all round skillset and can adapt to what's needed at any point. I'd agree with you that on form POM would probably deserve a place in a combined back row, but I think he would go better with either Robshaw or Wood than with Henry.

It's a shame that Cole has succumbed to this injury, he is an excellent player. The how much is too much question is one that is raised every now and again over on the the club forum so out of interest I've had a rough look at how much he actually played last season.

I don't have actual minutes played but what I did find was;

Starts
Aviva-10
Heineken-6
Lions Midweek-3
England Tests-9
Total-28

Sub Appearances
Aviva-5
Lions Midweek-3
Lions Test-3
Total-11

39 appearances is a lot.

As a means of comparison Mike Ross in 2012-13;

Starts
Rabo-9
Heineken/Amlin-9
Ireland Tests-9
Total-27

Subs
Rabo-3
Total-3

Both are tightheads and both have been pretty indispensable for their respective teams. In a non-Lions season I would argue that Cole would likely have 3 less starts and 6 less subs for the Lions but add 3 more England Summer tests. So his numbers would be 28 starts and 5 subs - not too dissimilar from Ross with 27 starts and 3 subs.

Now look at their respective appearances this season;

Cole;
Starts- Aviva (7) Heineken (6) Autumn (2) 6N (2) = 17
Sub- Aviva (2) Autumn (1) = 3

Ross;
Starts- Rabo (3) Heineken (4) Autumn (3) 6N (2) = 12
Sub- Rabo (5) Heineken (1) = 6

Cole had a tougher schedule than Ross last season and didn't have the benefit of a player welfare system to ease him back. He has looked short of his best for a while and now England have lost one of their most important players

Cole is a loss for England. I don't think the Ireland scrum will dominate but no doubt they're happy so see Cole not there not. I think England might lose a bit of mobility with Cole gone.


The big thing for the scrums in this match will be when the subs come on.

Isn't it this type of injurie that force Trevor Woodman to retire from the game?

I hope he will be all right and the injurie will not keep out of the game for too long.

But lets hope he does not rush back too early and he fully recovers.

Yes.... his health is obviously much more important than the sport of rugby; and his medics should ensure he stays away from it as long as it required without succumbing to any pressures that might exist in the background, giving the busy and significant months and few years ahead.

Actually, Rory Best was out for about a year with a serious neck injury a few years ago.

SecretFly wrote:Yes.... his health is obviously much more important than the sport of rugby; and his medics should ensure he stays away from it as long as it required without succumbing to any pressures that might exist in the background, giving the busy and significant months and few years ahead.

Actually, Rory Best was out for about a year with a serious neck injury a few years ago.

there will be no "background pressure" Both Tigers and England are pretty good at not rushing players back.

Oh I'm certain there won't be, Nathan, from either end as the neck region is when things get very serious....and coaches are human, despite how we often paint them

SecretFly wrote:No...but it might be put down to bad form?  

Every player, if he has played long enough, has a run of it a few times.

Of course - not denying that at all.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26234486

SL sounds pretty bullish about Davey Wilson, hopefully the stiff back will loosen a bit more before Saturday.

Big risk after seeing him play at the weekend. Is Thomas really not trusted?

It's ironic that posters are quick to say and agree Cole won't be rushed back before he has fully recovered. Shame it doesn't apply to poor old David Wilson. One club match and he's starting for England. Best of luck Davey.

Just wait till corbiserio is able to stand up again.

Aparently the injury was spotted when he suffered weakness in 1 arm. That means that the bulging disc in his neck are pressing on nerves. (Not a doc - correct me if I'm wrong).
I've had similar but dont play at high enough level to have surgery - treated with physio and steroid injection. (told that its not long term solution)
My understanding is that the surgical option shaves the disc that is touching nerves. Quite a long recovery time on that one - could be looking at Cole missing the NZ tour too as the assumption is that he will have surgery.

We need long term replacements for TH - I agree with most that Henry Thomas really isnt it.
Davy Wilson before injury looked in great form - but he isnt young anymore.
PDJ has never really stepped up and if anything has gotten worse.
Collier has shown recent promise.
K.Brooks has had a lot of people talking.

Brookes and or Collier could be on that plane to NZ - and poss Henry Thomas if he doesnt mess up too badly!

I keep seeing that manshaming game against Ireland - Mike Ross goes off, Tom court comes on to cover TH and gets demolished - set the tone for the whole game. It could be pay back.

englandglory4ever wrote:It's ironic that posters are quick to say and agree Cole won't be rushed back before he has fully recovered. Shame it doesn't apply to poor old David Wilson. One club match and he's starting for England. Best of luck Davey.

He's clearly fit though else he wouldn't of played for his club. Was he rushed back to his club? your comparing apples to oranges.

Looks like Cole will be out for the rest of the season and possible more.

Cockers wrote:"The most important thing is Dan's welfare and he will hopefully play at the start of next season," Tigers boss Cockerill told the Leicester Mercury.

"He saw a specialist last night and is going to have some time out of the game to let it settle.

"That will certainly be for a three-month period and then he will have a re-scan and see where we go from then on.

"There is a very good chance that the bulging disc will recede and then he will be able to be integrated back into training.

"It's disappointing for Dan first and foremost and it is bitterly disappointing for the club with all of the injury issues we have had this season.

"It will need patience from him and patience from me - something I have learned to be good at this season - but if it is three months, six months, nine months, there is no rush.

"The first thing to do is to solve the problem and solve it for the long term which is the next 10 years of his playing career and the next 50 years of his life."

nathan wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:It's ironic that posters are quick to say and agree Cole won't be rushed back before he has fully recovered. Shame it doesn't apply to poor old David Wilson. One club match and he's starting for England. Best of luck Davey.

He's clearly fit though else he wouldn't of played for his club. Was he rushed back to his club? your comparing apples to oranges.

Theres a difference between being ready for an international and making it through just over half of a club match, looking knackered throughout.

Bathman_in_London wrote:

nathan wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:It's ironic that posters are quick to say and agree Cole won't be rushed back before he has fully recovered. Shame it doesn't apply to poor old David Wilson. One club match and he's starting for England. Best of luck Davey.

He's clearly fit though else he wouldn't of played for his club. Was he rushed back to his club? your comparing apples to oranges.

Theres a difference between being ready for an international and making it through just over half of a club match, looking knackered throughout.

.....a ploy?  Maybe English camp knew about the Cole omission well before it became public.  'Let's ask the alternative to look a little knackered.'  It's possible in the skullduggery world of International strategies

I like David Wilson and thought he was just about earning the starting spot from Dan Cole anyway, but 45 mins of club action is no preperation for a test match. Cian Healy is on fire as are the whole Irish pack. It is a sad indictment on the lack of quality alternatives at tight head that he is being forced to start. I expect he will give his all for 55 minutes and then give way, but whether that 55 minutes will be quality is another thing.

I have heard that Waller at Northampton is pretty decent?

hugehandoff wrote:I like David Wilson and thought he was just about earning the starting spot from Dan Cole anyway, but 45 mins of club action is no preperation for a test match. Cian Healy is on fire as are the whole Irish pack. It is a sad indictment on the lack of quality alternatives at tight head that he is being forced to start. I expect he will give his all for 55 minutes and then give way, but whether that 55 minutes will be quality is another thing.

I have heard that Waller at Northampton is pretty decent?

He's been doing well but he's a LH not TH.

I think your right hugehandoff - But, how many international teams can put their hand up and say that they have 2 equally tallented TH's?
I can only really think of France as hving that kind of depth.

I do have a sinking feeling that we will be seing Wilson struggle from the off - and will have to rely on Thomas coming off the bench.
I feel its a missed oportunity for Collier as if he wasnt injured, could have leapfrogged into the squad!
From what I've seen of Thomas's scrummaging at club its not been great - Hopefully Bath coaches can do something about that.

With Cole potentially out for a while we could be taking - Wilson and Thomas as out TH's to NZ - thats doesnt inspire much!

I think the young english TH at saints is Mercy isnt he? But saints have been using Maafu more.

Realistically it was always going to be a struggle with Cole down and Wilson on the cusp of injury return.

The only other options would've been: Henry Thomas, Scott Wilson, Kieron Brookes or a recall for Fat Stevens. Collier is injured, PDJ is in awful form and Mercy is a competent AP TH not international class by a long stretch.

The best scrummaging prop out of those is probably Scott Wilson with Brookes very close. Wilson was excellent in the Saxons game.

Brookes is a step above Wilson currently, Wilson isn't ready for Int rugby whilst Brookes could do a job.

Where does Balmain play?

lostinwales wrote:Where does Balmain play?

TH but he's been stuffed a couple of times in the AP. He's very highly rated though. Someone said the new Julian White.

Kyle Sinkler is an up and coming - but still too young. Makes an impact when he comes on at Prem level games though.

Do you think we could tempt Budgen to come out of retirement (that barrell shaped Exeter prop).

Does anyone know about Colliers injury? is it long term?
Henry Thomas I thought was poor even in the Argentina tour against second rate oppo.

I've heard a lot of talk on here about Brookes - Wasnt amazed for the saxons appearances hes had, but they werent in great conditions. But, perhaps he needs the stage to shine on.

Brookes has been excellent for us. When he plays our scrum generally dominates and he's always busy in the loose.

Falcons have got him back firing after Tigers ruined him

Chjw131 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Where does Balmain play?

TH but he's been stuffed a couple of times in the AP. He's very highly rated though. Someone said the new Julian White.

As in a good right hook?

Bathman_in_London wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Where does Balmain play?

TH but he's been stuffed a couple of times in the AP. He's very highly rated though. Someone said the new Julian White.

As in a good right hook?

Well as far as Sheridan is concerned anyway.

Bathman_in_London wrote:

nathan wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:It's ironic that posters are quick to say and agree Cole won't be rushed back before he has fully recovered. Shame it doesn't apply to poor old David Wilson. One club match and he's starting for England. Best of luck Davey.

He's clearly fit though else he wouldn't of played for his club. Was he rushed back to his club? your comparing apples to oranges.

Theres a difference between being ready for an international and making it through just over half of a club match, looking knackered throughout.

well how exactly do you become match fit without actually playing?

Out for at least 3 months according to BBC. Probably longer I would suspect.

That means if we're sensible we'll leave him until the AIs for England. Davy Wilson in the driving seat but Thomas or Brookes are going to need meaningful game-time.

It sounds like there's no surgery possible/advisable at this stage. They just have to let it settle and hope the problem doesn't recur when he starts training again.

If it crops up again then surgery can deal with the problem but that would put him out for much longer. In the worst case, it has been sufficient to end careers.

Get keiron Brookes in there...he's a beast in the tight and loose! And Scotty Wilson in the squad...

propdavid_london wrote:Kyle Sinkler is an up and coming - but still too young.  Makes an impact when he comes on at Prem level games though.  
Does anyone know about Colliers injury? is it long term?
I've heard a lot of talk on here about Brookes - Wasnt amazed for the saxons appearances hes had, but they werent in great conditions.  But, perhaps he needs the stage to shine on.  

Collier is supposed to be back to face Glaws this weekend. Had looked good before his injury - made a mess of Racing's scrum, at least. It would be remarkable if he got called up against Wales or Italy, but if he hasn't lost form he could well tour in the summer.

Sinckler's probably a year away from being ready (unfortunately) but I have been told by a reliable source that he is already pretty much the strongest player in the Quins squad. Carries well, too.

Brookes has played well at club level, I think, and bear in mind that both sides the Saxons faced were much more experienced - which counts more for props than other positions.

It seems to me that Lancaster has a number of options of similar ability who all lack experience. With an eye on 2015, I hope he and Wig pick the two they think most likely to stay fit and in form and stick with them through the remaining games. At this stage, I think international experience will count for more than absolute talent.

propdavid_london wrote:I think the young english TH at saints is Mercy isnt he?  But saints have been using Maafu more.

Tom Mercey has been doing very well for Saints. Ma'afu has been starting but only lasting 45 55 minutes. So Mercey is getting a lot of first team experience against quality opponents, and not coming out on the wrong end with any of his assignments in any match. However, it is hard to say if he is ready for the big jump up in level. He is already 26 and his time may be running out. On the other hand, if we want a player who will not go backwards in the scrum and make his tackles, he can do it. I would look at other choices first.

Rugby Fan wrote:It sounds like there's no surgery possible/advisable at this stage. They just have to let it settle and hope the problem doesn't recur when he starts training again.

If it crops up again then surgery can deal with the problem but that would put him out for much longer. In the worst case, it has been sufficient to end careers.

When dealing with spinal injuries, surgery is frequently analogised to being the nuclear option.  Any time one works close to the spinal cord the risk of major damage goes up significantly, changing all the calculations.  

The recommendation for a longer layoff is not a surprise.  Based upon the article, it seems the docs are requiring rest and treatment to reduce the inflammation then re-assess.   If he just started feeling some sensation from the injured area, it is likely the nerve is inflamed by contact with the disc and needs rest to calm down.  Usually a course of steroids will help calm the inflammation as well.  But that doesn't move the disc at all.  It would be helpful to know where the injury is located.  If at C5-6 or C6-7 then he would be feeling arm pain and weakness.  Untreated, he could lose significant arm strength.  And cannot really build it back up if rest is ordered.  I have to wonder if he was feeling something for a while.  We have all commented he has looked off his usual standard for a few months, at least.  

Shame for Cole.  Necks injuries are nasty, and hold the potential for long term disability.  I have had two neck fusions (ACDF) and the recovery is tedious, long, and frustrating. I have also been fortunate to have great surgeons. Hopefully, he recovers and gets back to normal without surgery.