Roberto Duran - Some unanswered questions ??

First topic message reminder :

Just some random questions.............Not looking for an argument........But maybe someone other than Haz can clean it up for me..

1. Why does he get a free ride for quitting against Leonard ??......Don Curry quit like a dog when the DOCTOR pulled him out against Honey !!

2. If Leonard lost by a point fighting the wrong fight....Why do some posters believe Duran lost the second because he wasn't motivated ??..When Leonard fought the right fight ??

3. Barkley-Duran was a split decision and many including myself, KO magazine and other publications/journalists had it for Barkley.........Why isn't that fight ever a robbery or contentious ??

4. If Duran lost to Hearns because he was too big at 154 and 6ft 1.......(Forget the fact he couldn't slip a jab and tried to fight a 6ft guy on the outside).......Why did he BEAT!!....A "6ft 1 and 160 pound" Barkley...

5. Why doesn't he come under the same scrutiny as any other fighters of his day on here ??

6. Does he get a free ride because he's not American ??

No idiots please........These are fair questions ....

[quote="TRUSSMAN66"]I wrote this thread in good faith Rowley...........
 
Haz and Toppy have no self esteem...........and If you've seen pictures of them both like I have..
 
You'll know why..[quote]
 
Creepy.

Yeah...now go away.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Yeah...now go away.

Nope. Wherever you post horse manure, I'll be there. I'm Karl Pilkington's bulls*** man. Ta daaaaaaaaaa!!!

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I wrote this thread in good faith Rowley...........
 
Haz and Toppy have no self esteem...........and If you've seen pictures of them both like I have..
 
You'll know why..

 
Creepy.

He stalked me on Twitter, after his bumchum C_S did the same (if you think the above is creepy, C_S has saved all my v2 posts on his home computer.... ), not sure how he's seen you though.

Don't go away..Please stay..

Re Leonard duran. As people have rightly mentioned its hard to give too much credit to Leonard when he is the one who pointed out why he pushed for an early rematch. Without his comments we'd hear less about duran's partying... It would just be another fighter with another excuse for another defeat, without the credence Leonard gives it.

On that basis, if we're taking Leonard's word at face value on that, why aren't some able to take him at face value when he says his ego got the better of him in Montreal.

Either he's a bullpooper or a straight talker.

I'm inclined to think the truth re Montreal is a bit of both. Leonard wanted to show he was a tough guy, but who's to say duran wouldn't have dragged him there anyway. We don't know, its conjecture.

No doubt for me that duran clearly lacked the same intensity in the rematch.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I wrote this thread in good faith Rowley...........
 
Haz and Toppy have no self esteem...........and If you've seen pictures of them both like I have..
 
You'll know why..

 
Creepy.

He stalked me on Twitter, after his bumchum C_S did the same (if you think the above is creepy, C_S has saved all my v2 posts on his home computer.... ), not sure how he's seen you though.

I used to piddle about with my own boxing blog before I started writing and he used to message me creepy emails about what I was wearing and how handsome I looked.

milkyboy wrote:Re Leonard duran. As people have rightly mentioned its hard to give too much credit to Leonard when he is the one who pointed out why he pushed for an early rematch. Without his comments we'd hear less about duran's partying... It would just be another fighter with another excuse for another defeat, without the credence Leonard gives it.

On that basis, if we're taking Leonard's word at face value on that, why aren't some able to take him at face value when he says his ego got the better of him in Montreal.

Either he's a bullpooper or a straight talker.

I'm inclined to think the truth re Montreal is a bit of both. Leonard wanted to show he was a tough guy, but who's to say duran wouldn't have dragged him there anyway. We don't know, its conjecture.

No doubt for me that duran clearly lacked the same intensity in the rematch.

Leonard and Dundee also conceded they couldn't have fought any other way in Montreal as Duran wouldn't let them (quoted in the immediate aftermath).

milkyboy wrote:Re Leonard duran. As people have rightly mentioned its hard to give too much credit to Leonard when he is the one who pointed out why he pushed for an early rematch. Without his comments we'd hear less about duran's partying... It would just be another fighter with another excuse for another defeat, without the credence Leonard gives it.

On that basis, if we're taking Leonard's word at face value on that, why aren't some able to take him at face value when he says his ego got the better of him in Montreal.

Either he's a bullpooper or a straight talker.

I'm inclined to think the truth re Montreal is a bit of both. Leonard wanted to show he was a tough guy, but who's to say duran wouldn't have dragged him there anyway. We don't know, its conjecture.

No doubt for me that duran clearly lacked the same intensity in the rematch.

Because he wasn't allowed into the fight Milks.........Me thinks..

You think Leonard in New Orleans fighting like that really gives an intense Duran a chance ??

After all Benitez outboxed him as did Laing.. ?/

Look Haz I'm sorry for all offences i may have committed and for all future ones........Okay Mate...  

Funny thing about posters moaning about me having an agenda...........

Doesn't seem to stop them posting on the thread loads of times..

Duran's place in history for me is unquestionable, he is either the 1st or 2nd  greatest lightweight of all time depend on who you favour between him and Benny Leonard, he moved up and took the title off the 2nd best welterweight of all time. If he never won another fight in his career those achievements alone make him an ATG. He was in no shape at all from the Leonard rematch and most of the Welterweights in the top 10 would have beaten him just as easy, because that was a shadow of his normal self. Not that excludes him from criticism he took the extra money the quick return offered him and got what he deserved by going on such a massive bender after the first fight. Hearns is just a superb fighter and i dont think any natural lightweight ever had the capacity to be able to take Hearns murderous punches especially when its throw behind a heavyweights reach. Its one thing to be big enough to absorb Barkleys punches as a naturally smaller man, but Hearns was a different matter. Even when past his best he was able to come up with magic nights taking one of the best Middleweights in history to a split decision, giving the highly rated Davey Moore a complete battering, beating Barkley all amazing feats for a man who was naturally a much smaller man. The only real questions i have about Duran is just how good could he have been if he had taken the sport as serious as a Hagler or Hearns did, we could be on this thread discussing whether he is one of the 3 greatest fighters of all time.

Hogey do you not think he was outboxed against Hearns........

Hearns out reached a lot of guys who dealt with it better...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122211/1/index.htm

Good read this.

Yes mate, but none of them were natural lightweights. Hearns also outboxed Leonard twice but SRL was a naturally bigger man than Duran. I would put good money on Hearn's doing that just as quickly to Manny, Floyd, JMM and anyone else you can name coming up from below welterweight, one of the best punchers and skilful fighters of all time is nearly unbeatable when he has the physical advantages as well.

hazharrison wrote:

milkyboy wrote:Re Leonard duran. As people have rightly mentioned its hard to give too much credit to Leonard when he is the one who pointed out why he pushed for an early rematch. Without his comments we'd hear less about duran's partying... It would just be another fighter with another excuse for another defeat, without the credence Leonard gives it.

On that basis, if we're taking Leonard's word at face value on that, why aren't some able to take him at face value when he says his ego got the better of him in Montreal.

Either he's a bullpooper or a straight talker.

I'm inclined to think the truth re Montreal is a bit of both. Leonard wanted to show he was a tough guy, but who's to say duran wouldn't have dragged him there anyway. We don't know, its conjecture.

No doubt for me that duran clearly lacked the same intensity in the rematch.

Leonard and Dundee also conceded they couldn't have fought any other way in Montreal as Duran wouldn't let them (quoted in the immediate aftermath).

I'm sure we've both read and seen stacks on this fight haz. Dundee and Leonard had an aggressive plan for the fight out of tactical choice, thinking srl was bigger and stronger. Leonard was keen to show he could out tough the tough guy just like hagler tried to show he could outbox the boxer when they met. I've seen the interviews before the fight where he says he doesn't just want to win, he wants to win in a certain way and knock him out. Leonard fought the fight he chose, but its hard to argue it was the right one.

I've heard he said he couldn't have fought any other way in the aftermath, and I've heard comments from the team saying they fought the wrong fight. Certainly, he now says he didn't have a plan b, and it taught him a lesson.

My personal opinion is that New Orleans Leonard v Montreal duran is a different fight to either we actually saw. But I'm not saying I know who wins it. The only thing beyond doubt, is that regardless of strategies, fight plans etc, they were both in great nick and duran won.

Yep. And there was no shame in Leonard losing the first fight -- he fought out of his skin and was beginning to figure Roberto out late. Unable to find any space to work, he'd wait for the ref to break them and then look to catch Duran before he was set. Two great fighters at their best. That's what boxing is all about.

Durans defensive work in the final round was a thing of beauty, bloody stupid but beautiful.

Two points:

1. Regard Duran v Leonard there is a rule historians use when comparing fighters that fought multiple times and that is it is best to take your cue from the fight when both fighters were closest to their best.

2. I know Chris sees Floyd v Castillo as very tight. Personally I had Castillo up by 4 rounds and I wasn't on my own in that view.

With regard to the Barkley fight, there are similarlities to Haglar-Leonard, - Duran was the sentimental favorite, and the crowded cheered everything me threw- even when it didn't catch Barkley, we expected Barkley to handle Duran easily, thus making Durans unexpectely good showing look even better than it was, Duran scored the KD and landed more eye catching shots, whereas Iran landed the slower, harder body shots.
Barkley must have known that Duran would get a two round headstart just for being Duran, and with the prospect of Duran-Leonard 3 around the corner he should have doen everything he could to get the KO, instead he let Duran back into the fight and failed to make the most of his physical advantages.

With regards to Duran getting these "free rides", he's hardly the only one- on the back of two magnificent victories we let it slide that Ali looked dross for most of the seventies!- it about taking an overall perspective rather than focussing on the negatives.

Barkley fought a great fight to be fair. I remember KO Mag broke it down and he didn't do a lot wrong.

I have always loved this paragraph from an article on the Duran v Barkley fight from The Sweet Science.


Round seven was a showcase of Duran’s genius. He slipped six punches in a row before stunning Barkley again with a right. Moments later Barkley bent his knees and landed two short left hooks. A dazed Duran started to tilt and fell into a clinch, but resumed fighting a moment later as if his chin matched his hands of stone. At the end of the round, Duran stood ring center and stared at the champion as if to say “mas”. Ray Arcel was almost 90 years old when he watched this bout in his Manhattan apartment: “I just sat there…and I mean, I was laughing,” he told Ronald K. Fried in “Corner Men”, “this is my baby.”


http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles/6588-roberto-duran-the-fourth-crown

Funnily enough I just saw Michael Buffer on Sky saying the Duran against Barkley fight is his favourite.

Feel sorry for Robbie Sims....Beat Duran, Barkley and lost a contentious fight with Dewitt..

All 3 went on to become champions..

Hate to be the bearer of bad news Truss but didn't Don tell his cornor 'I'm through'. After being beaten to a pulp.

Dont think that consitutes a doctor stoppage. Nice try though.

I don't understand your post Mate

Sorry mate.

1. Don Curry quit like a dog when the DOCTOR pulled him out against Honey !!
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Hate to be the bearer of bad news Truss but didn't Don tell his cornor 'I'm through'. After being beaten to a pulp.

Dont think that consitutes a doctor stoppage. Nice try though..

If you say so..