France and Analysis

Did France learn nothing from watching Ireland dismantle Wales?

Did France learn nothing from their victory over England?

I just don't get it. Wales play flat in defense and rush for 80 minutes.

Where was the kicking game to turn the welsh line? This tactic reaped dividends for Ireland and France themselves used it to great effect against England.

France chipped the welsh line once - once. And but for a fumble, it worked perfectly. Why just once?

Instead France took an age to clear the ball from each ruck - often delaying well after the ball was available. They then shuffled to a static basteraud in midfield who did precisely nothing.

They repeatedly traversed the welsh defensive line and found themselves with now where to go but out.

The welsh defense was great, but France really played into their hands.

I'm lost for an explanation.

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Anything sensible to add Barney?

Totally agree. Just think the ferocity of the Welsh defence left France clueless.
France are always a confidence team - Wales got scores in early. French heads dropped - they were unfortunate on some calls which served to further frustrate them and Wales capitalised.
Wales played well - stopped France really playing at all.

Fair assessment, at least we can finally get some due credit. Have to say the scrums started out a bit of a lottery, then Wales dominated (until Rh.Jones came on). France were also a bit lucky as a few of their passes looked forward in real time, though I could be proven otherwise by a different angle. That'll no doubt skew some of the stats in their favour, and wrongly so. On some occasions Warburton wasn't allowed to contest the breakdown, I think he earned at least another 2 turnovers. Breakdown was smashed by Wales, total aggression and urgency. Completely the opposite from the massacre in Dublin.

Hard to single out a MOTM in a good team performance. Jenkins, Jones, Ball, Charteris, Warburton, Webb would all be candidates for me though.

France did seem to lose all composure after about 3 minutes. From then on in it was miracle balls all round. Truly bizarre. I think their problems lie at 9, 10 and 13.

Often I read how the backs can't perform if the forward don't win the battle. Truth in that - but the backs also put the forwards under pressure by setting so many slow phases with such a lateral game - increasing the forward work load. It's a synergy and I think laying all the blame up front is not correct in this case. It's hard to clean out and secure a ruck when it's starting 5 meters behind the gain line and 40 meters across field.

I did wonder about 2 or 3 of the French passes - but as they were all in the last 10 minutes they weren't going to affect the result - and didn't result in a score.

GE were you a neutral for this one?
Wondered what your opinion was on the Welsh 2nd try.
Couldn't see anything wrong with it myself but a few posters seem certain it wasn't a try.

I have my opinion on the match thread. Reckon it would've been very harsh to disallow it. The grounding was legal in my opinion even if it was short before he rolled it. I believe you are allowed the "push the ball" when placing it after being tackled, so no problem for me.

I'd like to see the knock on again in the prior phase. Suspect that it might have ricocheted off a French leg while he grappled to keep control of it.

I could be wrong.

I thought so too.

A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(d)
A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except forward, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

I'm wrong.

Still given the leniency given on tackle release in ither parts of the field - why get pernickety on this one? Call them all the same I say.

Summed up by the fact that PSA only brought on Fickou with 10mins to go and the game lost. The fact that he wouldn't pick Parra is also indicative of his thinking (or lack of it).

ME-109 wrote:Summed up by the fact that PSA only brought on Fickou with 10mins to go and the game lost. The fact that he wouldn't pick Parra is also indicative of his thinking (or lack of it).

Thought Parra was still injured?

Played the full 80 last week

Fair enough - we're playing Wilson on the strength of a little over 3/4 's of an hour.

Worst game of rugby I've seen France play in a long time. Clueless. North was lucky with his push for the first try, but Wales were the only team trying to play at times. If they'd got a couple more tries, I wouldn't think it would be an unfair scoreline.

Can France play this badly again? Who knows? The Scots are probably hoping so.

Agree. France played into the Welsh defence all night. Scrums were a lottery altho the pitch didn't help. A couple of Fra passes were forward and the 2nd try was ok. Warbs momentum when he was tackled carried the ball to the line imo..

Yachvilli would have been better than the two jokers he had tonight. All France need is a decent coach, they have ignored all the best options over the years because they are too maverick...noves, galthie, brunel

I think the only time France played worse was when they lost to Wales in Paris last year....and the only time they played worse than that encounter was the final 6 Nations match of 2012. Hmmm, notice something here Englanders?

Anyone else think Rolland was a little unsympathetic to the scrum and didn't really take the unstable pitch into consideration?

I know they were messy, but the second and third scrums of the match he have full arm penalties for a prop losing his footing. I thought that was harsh.

Wales def have the indian sign over France over the past few yrs..

Either that or its those dodgy garlic eclairs.

The Saint wrote:I think the only time France played worse was when they lost to Wales in Paris last year....and the only time they played worse than that encounter was the final 6 Nations match of 2012. Hmmm, notice something here Englanders?

Wales are always lucky to face a weak France?

I'm only joking - Wales won through passion and a dominating defensive line - well played.

The Saint wrote:I think the only time France played worse was when they lost to Wales in Paris last year....and the only time they played worse than that encounter was the final 6 Nations match of 2012. Hmmm, notice something here Englanders?

I've seen France play worse than that many a time. But the thing that staggered me was how individualistic they were. And how little thought they have into how to unlock the welsh defense. They wanted to do it as individuals, rather than applying a collective tactic.

I think the welsh played the scrum perfectly by making it a lottery and hard to ref..

GloriousEmpire wrote:Anyone else think Rolland was a little unsympathetic to the scrum and didn't really take the unstable pitch into consideration?

I know they were messy, but the second and third scrums of the match he have full arm penalties for a prop losing his footing. I thought that was harsh.

Yep - linesman was poor too - Jones pulled the French props arm down a couple of times too.

France seemed leaderless and clueless and were never in the game.

I think the 2nd try was suspect thought. Was clearly placed short and rolled forward not carried over by momentum which I think is a penalty. Didn't affect the win though.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

The Saint wrote:I think the only time France played worse was when they lost to Wales in Paris last year....and the only time they played worse than that encounter was the final 6 Nations match of 2012. Hmmm, notice something here Englanders?

I've seen France play worse than that many a time. But the thing that staggered me was how individualistic they were. And how little thought they have into how to unlock the welsh defense. They wanted to do it as individuals, rather than applying a collective tactic.  

So have I. It's just every time Wales win it's because the opposition were poor . I thought Wales stopped France from playing, like Ireland did to Wales. If it wins you games then you can't knock it. I thought the massacre in Dublin was terrible. Ireland, and for some reason Schmidt, seemed to take a lot of credit of everyone for that performance. Just can't see the game graciousness being afforded to Wales because they're too Welsh!

Heaf wrote:France seemed leaderless and clueless and were never in the game.

I think the 2nd try was suspect thought.  Was clearly placed short and rolled forward not carried over by momentum which I think is a penalty.  Didn't affect the win though.

Maybe, but how many other placements of the ball by a tackled player were held to the same level of scrutiny? Is it right to penalise a possible second micro-movement on a try and at no other time?

The Saint wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

The Saint wrote:I think the only time France played worse was when they lost to Wales in Paris last year....and the only time they played worse than that encounter was the final 6 Nations match of 2012. Hmmm, notice something here Englanders?

I've seen France play worse than that many a time. But the thing that staggered me was how individualistic they were. And how little thought they have into how to unlock the welsh defense. They wanted to do it as individuals, rather than applying a collective tactic.  

So have I. It's just every time Wales win it's because the opposition were poor . I thought Wales stopped France from playing, like Ireland did to Wales. If it wins you games then you can't knock it. I thought the massacre in Dublin was terrible. Ireland, and for some reason Schmidt, seemed to take a lot of credit of everyone for that performance. Just can't see the game graciousness being afforded to Wales because they're too Welsh!

Come on mate - Wales are getting a lot of praise. No need for a chip on the shoulder today. I thought France were tactically gormless and gave a reason why I thought so. I'm not trying to devalue the deserved victory.

It wasn't aimed at you. I think your posts from this evening are fair and posted in a constructive manner.

GE I'm not questioning the justice of the decision just the basis in law.

Yeah technically probably you might have a case. He definitely places it short and rolls it half an inch.

Equally though you get guys tackled mid field who wriggle a good meter or so and then place the ball twice and then push it back to the scrum half. Surely the basis in law has to be scrutinised every where or treated with equal pragmatism every where.

GE, France never learnt anything under PSA. End of analysis. No charge   
A win against an equally out of sort Scottish team could still give them a chance to look good in the 6N which is truly shocking as they should just withdraw with immediate effect.

Wales had a very good first 20 minutes, showing some good aggression in defense and spirit going forward. After that they almost managed to let France back in the game which is worrying for them. That said they looked in control. Considering all their missing players it is a decent win for Wales but still need some improvement before facing England.

The Saint wrote:It wasn't aimed at you. I think your posts from this evening are fair and posted in a constructive manner.

So who was it aimed at? I've been nothing but complimentary - GE has said you deserved the win...

Relax - you won and deserved it!

You seem a bit like the aggressive drunk wanting to know who wants a fight.
Umm no-one!

Whocares...surely it's better to almost let them back into the game, than actually let them back into the game?

It isn't though is it?  They don't go back and check every possible forward pass, knock on etc during play for obvious reasons. But if something goes to the TMO I expect them to get it right according to the law not try to apply some filter based on what else may have gone on throughout the game as that way lies a whole load of trouble.

GE that was to a couple of posts up ... Not the one just above.

Really? Shouldn't the calls be consistent even when being reviewed?

Aren't tmo's under instruction that offences have to be "clear and obvious" with an implication of materiality?

Perhaps it comes down to if the slight rotation of the ball on grounding was part of the act of grounding, or whether it was two separate motions.

Would we need a specialist in the area of tendon motions with a thousand probes attached to determine the difference? Do we really care that much?

Now you're just being daft.

It was clear and obvious - my only question really was whether it was legal.

In the context of the game no we don't care - at least I don't - but for my own understanding of the laws I am interested in knowing what is correct.

Not trying to make a big deal out of it.

Ball hit the line on first grounding..that was clear from the tmo (high level camera). All else is pure supposition

Really? Looked short to me and the commentators plus plenty of others on here.

But as I've said it's not this particular instance I'm interested in ... More a clarification of the laws when a ball is rolled onto the line.

Academic

Doussain stunk worse than Boursin. A terrible performance, the sooner Parra is back the better. GE - I agree France should have chipped more, but not sure that's that easy against Wales. They seem to do a decent job of using the SH as sweeper behind, and Halfpenny's positioning and pace mean it's extremely hard to execute against them. Ireland's kicks were garryowens. But France don't have Kearney to pluck them out of the air.

ME-109 wrote:Academic

Yes that's my point ... I'd like to know for my own knowledge of the laws.

It was definitely short for me, and presumably Warburton or he wouldn't have bothered rolling it forward.

The thing is, although everyone is stating how good the welsh defence is, Wales missed a huge amount of tackles in this game. Looking at these stats, the score line is very bizarre. Wales certainly the better team though, France were shocking.

http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2014/rugby/match/180670.html

France have no plan. They aren't a team. Just 15 players on a pitch who occasionally interact

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Still think France would've beaten NZ

You may be right there Barney, you just may be right   

Well done Wales, they outplayed France, frustrated them and made them look very bad. Same France that beat England no difference apart from a better opposition who dominated them.

Rainbow, please read the capitalised trailer on the OP.   

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The thing is, although everyone is stating how good the welsh defence is, Wales missed a huge amount of tackles in this game.  Looking at these stats, the score line is very bizarre.  Wales certainly the better team though, France were shocking.

http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2014/rugby/match/180670.html

That and the number of defender beaten stat. That was my earlier point on almost letting france back in the game. It was in the 2nd half when game was well over anyway. Also great turnover stat in favor of Wales.