France and Analysis

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Did France learn nothing from watching Ireland dismantle Wales?

Did France learn nothing from their victory over England?

I just don't get it. Wales play flat in defense and rush for 80 minutes.

Where was the kicking game to turn the welsh line? This tactic reaped dividends for Ireland and France themselves used it to great effect against England.

France chipped the welsh line once - once. And but for a fumble, it worked perfectly. Why just once?

Instead France took an age to clear the ball from each ruck - often delaying well after the ball was available. They then shuffled to a static basteraud in midfield who did precisely nothing.

They repeatedly traversed the welsh defensive line and found themselves with now where to go but out.

The welsh defense was great, but France really played into their hands.

I'm lost for an explanation.

(Note: PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS THREAD IF YOU ONLY WANT TO ANTAGONISE OTHER POSTERS)

France will always make line breaks in a game; if they had the kicking game, structure, skill execution and detail to go with it they would be some prospect.

Unfortunately the malaise runs deeper than one poor coach. Where are the outstanding coaches in the Top14? Whats the style of rugby played in the Top14? It's slow, attritional, dull and sloppy. They put in world class players on big salaries, spend a huge amount of money and the clubs have great fans that generate a good atmosphere. But the league itself is moribund in rugby terms and all it's doing is suffocating the national side. The pool of French players in the league has also been affected but they have depth and quality still, there's no doubt about it- I think they suffer more from the kind of rugby played in the league.

There's an anglophone culture in rugby we don't realise how lucky we are to be a part of it. Ideas of best practice in rugby flow out from New Zealand, Australia and South Africa via the coaches and players that come to the NH and we are absorbing them better than the French. I think certain cultural differences and the language barrier promote a more insular mindset in France; they are less open to new ideas. They do have typically less coaches involved in their pro teams, and less specialists on the coaching staff.

Yeah we should just hire a kiwi coach like most countries do.
Thanks for the tip Notch   

Hey, no worries

I think its more a case of what Wales and France didn't do in their respective games, as opposed to what Ireland and Wales did in getting the wins. Thats not to take anything away from Wales and Ireland. IMO its down to commitment and the execution of basic skills.

I was being sarcastic but there is a fair amount of truth in what you said Notch.French coaching level is quite poor on a tactical point of view. Guys like Noves are ok but real outdated now. Galthie seems like a nice guy but his team is a good reflection of how naive he is. No one has really tried anything new in the last 10 years or so and players (specially forwards) are used to an old fashioned type of rugby. The style of rugby is attritional by default almost but ringfence the T14 and within 2 years half of the teams will be playing total rugby.

Anyway this is all very nice but I blame the FFR for their lack of vision and amateurism. In PSA they had the coach they deserve. This guy has no real interest in even trying something different. At least even Lievremont did try things with some relative success before going crazy.

whocares wrote:

Anyway this is all very nice but I blame the FFR for their lack of vision and amateurism. In PSA they had the coach they deserve. This guy has no real interest in even trying something different. At least even Lievremont did try things with some relative success before going crazy.

Well since say.... 2000, who do you think has been France's best coach? Laporte and surely Lievremont would be up there results-wise. PSA has to be the worst. I do feel for the French, slightly... Such a good rugby nation with a rich rugby history, all set to be ruined and the main party responsible is LNR.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Rainbow, please read the capitalised trailer on the OP.   

What has that got to do with my post? Don't start trying to run the roost here with your own specific law's. What I posted is my opinion and if it antagonises anyone tough.

Christmas notch, two effing wins for Ireland and sh coaching is the bomb...i disagree with who cares with regards to noves and brunel..two coaches who constantly adapted. Whocares is probably some Johnny come lately Parisian who thinks rugby in France started a couple of years ago somewhere in St Denis

Breadvan wrote:Agree. France played into the Welsh defence all night. Scrums were a lottery altho the pitch didn't help. A couple of Fra passes were forward and the 2nd try was ok. Warbs momentum when he was tackled carried the ball to the line imo..

France could send 9 or 10 of that team on their own to Murrayfield and would still beat us, such is the depths of inadequacy Johnson has taken us to !   

The Saint wrote:

whocares wrote:

Anyway this is all very nice but I blame the FFR for their lack of vision and amateurism. In PSA they had the coach they deserve. This guy has no real interest in even trying something different. At least even Lievremont did try things with some relative success before going crazy.

Well since say.... 2000, who do you think has been France's best coach? Laporte and surely Lievremont would be up there results-wise. PSA has to be the worst. I do feel for the French, slightly... Such a good rugby nation with a rich rugby history, all set to be ruined and the main party responsible is LNR.

I think it is very sad indeed to see what France has done to itself in Rugby. The last few weekends, players like Dulin, Fofana, Fickou, Bonneval, Nyanga and Picamoles, event the Captain Pape have showed what is at the heart of French rugby. Enterprise, skill and endeavour.

Last night France faced a rabid Welsh effort, it will make France stronger for their next game. They have some young players in the right positions. Guys with class and talent...

I would want to see a few changes in selection though. Fofana and Fickou to start in the centre, Tales at Flyhalf, Parra at Scrumhalf.

GloriousEmpire wrote:A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(d)
A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except forward, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

I'm wrong.

Still given the leniency given on tackle release in ither parts of the field - why get pernickety on this one? Call them all the same I say.

He didn't push it. He rolled it, retaining control and therefore not releasing it.

maestegmafia wrote:

The Saint wrote:

whocares wrote:

Anyway this is all very nice but I blame the FFR for their lack of vision and amateurism. In PSA they had the coach they deserve. This guy has no real interest in even trying something different. At least even Lievremont did try things with some relative success before going crazy.

Well since say.... 2000, who do you think has been France's best coach? Laporte and surely Lievremont would be up there results-wise. PSA has to be the worst. I do feel for the French, slightly... Such a good rugby nation with a rich rugby history, all set to be ruined and the main party responsible is LNR.

I think it is very sad indeed to see what France has done to itself in Rugby. The last few weekends, players like Dulin, Fofana, Fickou, Bonneval, Nyanga and Picamoles, event the Captain Pape have showed what is at the heart of French rugby. Enterprise, skill and endeavour.

Last night France faced a rabid Welsh effort, it will make France stronger for their next game. They have some young players in the right positions. Guys with class and talent...

I would want to see a few changes in selection though. Fofana and Fickou to start in the centre, Tales at Flyhalf, Parra at Scrumhalf.

French half-backs were especially poor. Where's Trinh-Duc?

ME-109 wrote:Christmas notch, two effing wins for Ireland and sh coaching is the bomb...i disagree with who cares with regards to noves and brunel..two coaches who constantly adapted. Whocares is probably some Johnny come lately Parisian who thinks rugby in France started a couple of years ago somewhere in St Denis

Ah another ignorant cassoulet adept from Munster kingdom who are in love with Toulouse because of their huge HC trophy cabinet.

Am from the south west of France (bordeaux suburbs) The fact that I live around Paris is irrelevant to where I come from. You will struggle to find many born and bred parisians.

Havent talked about brunel who's doing a good job with Italy and had a good track record with USAP. I stand by what I said on Noves. A nice stutborn bloke who is actually regressing and keeps on moaning every bloody day. Adapted to what? Bring the biggest forwards available on the market to make sure to have a shot at the Brennus every other year ?
Got worst since he named elissalde as back coach (pains me to say that as he was one my all time french players).

If you saw the running, possession and territory stats youd assume France won this one easily. Wales hardly had to do anything for their points, just good kicking from hand and some really well executed back play when they were in good positions. Defensively sound, played hard and smart. Just goes to show how much a kick up the bum can do for a team.

Scrums...why do we bother?

I guess Pierre owed Wales one but France were never in this, despite ball hogging.

Possession and territory hardly wins you game these days. Even the ABs sometimes leave that to their opponents.

whocares wrote:
Havent talked about Brunel who's doing a good job with Italy and had a good track record with USAP. I stand by what I said on Noves. A nice stutborn bloke who is actually regressing and keeps on moaning every bloody day. Adapted to what? Bring the biggest forwards available on the market to make sure to have a shot at the Brennus every other year ?
Got worst since he named elissalde as back coach (pains me to say that as he was one my all time french players).

Brunel could be a great french coach one day.

Maybe. At least he has some experience to share as he was France forward coach between 01 and 07.

whocares wrote:Maybe. At least he has some experience to share as he was France forward coach between 01 and 07.

I dont think that PSA was necessarily the only one to blame last night. The players struggled with the refereeing (actually both teams and the fans did) and the intensity of a good defence something France had not encountered yet this championship.

I see this game as being a good kick up the backside for France rather than the death toll. They will come back a better team for their next match.

Though as i mentioned elsewhere, the addition of Parra, then maybe Fickou ahead of Basteraud might make a positive difference. Mais ce la vie...

ME-109 wrote:Christmas notch, two effing wins for Ireland and sh coaching is the bomb...i disagree with who cares with regards to noves and brunel..two coaches who constantly adapted. Whocares is probably some Johnny come lately Parisian who thinks rugby in France started a couple of years ago somewhere in St Denis

Why would you ever make this post?!

maestegmafia wrote:

whocares wrote:Maybe. At least he has some experience to share as he was France forward coach between 01 and 07.

I dont think that PSA was necessarily the only one to blame last night. The players struggled with the refereeing (actually both teams and the fans did) and the intensity of a good defence something France had not encountered yet this championship.

I see this game as being a good kick up the backside for France rather than the death toll. They will come back a better team for their next match.

Though as i mentioned elsewhere, the addition of Parra, then maybe Fickou ahead of Basteraud might make a positive difference. Mais ce la vie...

It might be a kick up the backside. It might not at all, as last year's evidence can attest to

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:If you saw the running, possession and territory stats youd assume France won this one easily. Wales hardly had to do anything for their points, just good kicking from hand and some really well executed back play when they were in good positions. Defensively sound, played hard and smart. Just goes to show how much a kick up the bum can do for a team.

Scrums...why do we bother?

I guess Pierre owed Wales one but France were never in this, despite ball hogging.

Agree with this. What the stats never account for, for obvious reasons, is tactics. If one team chooses to run the ball pretty much from everywhere (France) and one chooses to play a kick chase game (Wales) then logic dictates that Wales' possession will be less, they'll make less yards as they will have kicked it rather than run it, will this beat less players and the opposition will not have to tackle much, and of course Wales' tackle count will be higher as we're giving them back the ball in order to defend higher up the pitch and try to force the turnover. You could say that in some ways the stats actually demonstrate the success of our game plan, in a roundabout way.

If we'd both had the same game plans and style and the stats were as they were then France would have probably been the winners, but by kicking the ball high and long we've sort of erased or forcibly omitted the stats for running/metres gained, line breaks, French tackles missed and possession that would usually go with the dominant team. A 'Ball in the air metres made and territory gained' stat would be a good one to add in for Wales! Get on the case OPTA.

maestegmafia wrote:

whocares wrote:Maybe. At least he has some experience to share as he was France forward coach between 01 and 07.

I dont think that PSA was necessarily the only one to blame last night. The players struggled with the refereeing (actually both teams and the fans did) and the intensity of a good defence something France had not encountered yet this championship.

I see this game as being a good kick up the backside for France rather than the death toll. They will come back a better team for their next match.

Though as i mentioned elsewhere, the addition of Parra, then maybe Fickou ahead of Basteraud might make a positive difference. Mais ce la vie...

Well I dont blame PSA for the knock ons and players getting isolated themselves. The poor execution is down to players. Failing to see that Doussain was knackered was his own fault (he did sub him at ht though but shouldnt even have started). To be honest with a forward pack under that much pressure, I dont think Parra would have made a big difference.

France were about as bad as Wales were in Ireland. I agree with others who say their issue is at 9/10.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The thing is, although everyone is stating how good the welsh defence is, Wales missed a huge amount of tackles in this game.  Looking at these stats, the score line is very bizarre.  Wales certainly the better team though, France were shocking.

http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2014/rugby/match/180670.html

I actually thought this was a poor game all round. Congratulations to Wales for a deserved win that rewarded their hard work and endeavour, however I didn't think it was the greatest advertisement of our game....just what I thought but I can see how if you're a Welsh supporter you may well have a very different perspective.

I've never been a fan of Roland and will be relieved when he leaves the game, which is sad but as GE mentions above regards the scrum, I actually think he's pretty unsympathetic full stop - he's not the only poor ref but for me has been consistently negative.

I've mentioned it elsewhere on these threads and would dearly love for the MS to install a 4G pitch which would make for a very different game with the obvious benefit underfoot at scrum and in back play.

Finally GE you have made me chuckle with your chosen title. Surely the two are mutually exclusive? My two pennith, France are rudderless largely on the field, definitely in their coaching and as for their Union club structure, well just go figure as to the priority they give international rugby......

I think Wales could have done even better if Rolland had been more patient in the scrums (I think Wales had the push and France were dropping it to turn it into a lottery most times), and if he wasn't so lenient on ball release at the breakdown - there were 2 or 3 times Warburton was over the ball for several seconds before being cleared out, which a lot of refs would have given as a penalty.

Isn't Ireland in Paris France's next game? Feel sorry for you Irish, you're going to get it in the neck .

How nice it is to see all the welsh posters back! I missed your perspective for the last week.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Rainbow, please read the capitalised trailer on the OP.   

Pishing into the wind GE....

GloriousEmpire wrote:How nice it is to see all the welsh posters back! I missed your perspective for the last week.

Is this not the type of post you didn't want to see in this thread GE?

No because I'm being honest. It was like a ghost town last week.

The Saint wrote:Isn't Ireland in Paris France's next game? Feel sorry for you Irish, you're going to get it in the neck .

I think it is Scotland away next for France

GloriousEmpire wrote:No because I'm being honest. It was like a ghost town last week.

  

ChequeredJersey wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Christmas notch, two effing wins for Ireland and sh coaching is the bomb...i disagree with who cares with regards to noves and brunel..two coaches who constantly adapted. Whocares is probably some Johnny come lately Parisian who thinks rugby in France started a couple of years ago somewhere in St Denis

Why would you ever make this post?!

For fun...

We only have one Frenchie, don't drive him away!

whocares wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Christmas notch, two effing wins for Ireland and sh coaching is the bomb...i disagree with who cares with regards to noves and brunel..two coaches who constantly adapted. Whocares is probably some Johnny come lately Parisian who thinks rugby in France started a couple of years ago somewhere in St Denis

Ah another ignorant cassoulet adept from Munster kingdom who are in love with Toulouse because of their huge HC trophy cabinet.

Am from the south west of France (bordeaux suburbs) The fact that I live around Paris is irrelevant to where I come from. You will struggle to find many born and bred parisians.

Havent talked about brunel who's doing a good job with Italy and had a good track record with USAP. I stand by what I said on Noves. A nice stutborn bloke who is actually regressing and keeps on moaning every bloody day. Adapted to what? Bring the biggest forwards available on the market to make sure to have a shot at the Brennus every other year ?
Got worst since he named elissalde as back coach (pains me to say that as he was one my all time french players).

Touche...
having said that..shouldn't you be more interested in Le Foot...
As for Noves, he does win things, maybe France should try it some time

ChequeredJersey wrote:We only have one Frenchie, don't drive him away!

True, but just look at his retort, its even a better class of insult

whocares wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Christmas notch, two effing wins for Ireland and sh coaching is the bomb...i disagree with who cares with regards to noves and brunel..two coaches who constantly adapted. Whocares is probably some Johnny come lately Parisian who thinks rugby in France started a couple of years ago somewhere in St Denis

Ah another ignorant cassoulet adept from Munster kingdom who are in love with Toulouse because of their huge HC trophy cabinet.

Am from the south west of France (bordeaux suburbs) The fact that I live around Paris is irrelevant to where I come from. You will struggle to find many born and bred parisians.

Havent talked about brunel who's doing a good job with Italy and had a good track record with USAP. I stand by what I said on Noves. A nice stutborn bloke who is actually regressing and keeps on moaning every bloody day. Adapted to what? Bring the biggest forwards available on the market to make sure to have a shot at the Brennus every other year ?
Got worst since he named elissalde as back coach (pains me to say that as he was one my all time french players).

The influence of Schmidt, however extensive or not it may be, is just a small part of the bigger picture. You are looking at all the SH coaches who have worked in the NH at professional level, all of the players who have come over, and then all of the ideas and lessons the people in charge of the Academy systems are trying to emulate.

ME-109 wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:We only have one Frenchie, don't drive him away!

True, but just look at his retort, its even a better class of insult

No need for a retort if there's no insult in the first place! You guys can fight in a few weeks, at the moment all vitriol should be England-Ireland

Notch wrote:

whocares wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Christmas notch, two effing wins for Ireland and sh coaching is the bomb...i disagree with who cares with regards to noves and brunel..two coaches who constantly adapted. Whocares is probably some Johnny come lately Parisian who thinks rugby in France started a couple of years ago somewhere in St Denis

Ah another ignorant cassoulet adept from Munster kingdom who are in love with Toulouse because of their huge HC trophy cabinet.

Am from the south west of France (bordeaux suburbs) The fact that I live around Paris is irrelevant to where I come from. You will struggle to find many born and bred parisians.

Havent talked about brunel who's doing a good job with Italy and had a good track record with USAP. I stand by what I said on Noves. A nice stutborn bloke who is actually regressing and keeps on moaning every bloody day. Adapted to what? Bring the biggest forwards available on the market to make sure to have a shot at the Brennus every other year ?
Got worst since he named elissalde as back coach (pains me to say that as he was one my all time french players).

The influence of Schmidt, however extensive or not it may be, is just a small part of the bigger picture. You are looking at all the SH coaches who have worked in the NH at professional level, all of the players who have come over, and then all of the ideas and lessons the people in charge of the Academy systems are trying to emulate.

Do you think that's maybe one of the reasons why the welsh regions have fallen behind the Irish ones, Notch? They've had less of an influx of SH coaches, and the players on the whole have been poorer SH ones than the Irish have been able to entice. Only the Ospreys have had a decent SH recruitment period, and funnily enough this was probably when they were at there strongest, certainly in Europe. But coaching wise, we've not attracted SH coaches and maybe our game is lagging behind as a result???

I think definitely the influence of players like Nacewa, Elsom, Pienaar, Muller, Howlett etc. can't be understated- never mind the coaches.

I do think the provinces have borrowed heavily from other rugby cultures to make successful sides as opposed to having our own homegrown rugby expertise. Not in everything, we've always been very good at the breakdown and had that in our locker but you can see the extra bits and pieces other coaches have brought in and when you bring in world class players they often act as mentors to younger players as well.

Hasn't added up to a hill of beans yet at test level, mind you, and it's not like we don't have very good Irish coaches working in Europe too are our own quality players; but yeah, I think Ireland are have definitely learned from some more successful nations.

ME-109 wrote:

whocares wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Christmas notch, two effing wins for Ireland and sh coaching is the bomb...i disagree with who cares with regards to noves and brunel..two coaches who constantly adapted. Whocares is probably some Johnny come lately Parisian who thinks rugby in France started a couple of years ago somewhere in St Denis

Ah another ignorant cassoulet adept from Munster kingdom who are in love with Toulouse because of their huge HC trophy cabinet.

Am from the south west of France (bordeaux suburbs) The fact that I live around Paris is irrelevant to where I come from. You will struggle to find many born and bred parisians.

Havent talked about brunel who's doing a good job with Italy and had a good track record with USAP. I stand by what I said on Noves. A nice stutborn bloke who is actually regressing and keeps on moaning every bloody day. Adapted to what? Bring the biggest forwards available on the market to make sure to have a shot at the Brennus every other year ?
Got worst since he named elissalde as back coach (pains me to say that as he was one my all time french players).

Touche...
having said that..shouldn't you be more interested in Le Foot...
As for Noves, he does win things, maybe France should try it some time

Indeed he does. I believe he was offered the job and kindly rejected the offer. Probably because he likes to win things (and speaks his mind a bit too loudly to fit in the FFR clique)

ChequeredJersey wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:We only have one Frenchie, don't drive him away!

True, but just look at his retort, its even a better class of insult

No need for a retort if there's no insult in the first place! You guys can fight in a few weeks, at the moment all vitriol should be England-Ireland

No harm done CJ. Twas just some mild banter
Calling someone a Parisian though can get you in trouble in some parts of France .

Notch wrote:I think definitely the influence of players like Nacewa, Elsom, Pienaar, Muller, Howlett etc. can't be understated- never mind the coaches.

I do think the provinces have borrowed heavily from other rugby cultures to make successful sides as opposed to having our own homegrown rugby expertise. Not in everything, we've always been very good at the breakdown and had that in our locker but you can see the extra bits and pieces other coaches have brought in and when you bring in world class players they often act as mentors to younger players as well.

Hasn't added up to a hill of beans yet at test level, mind you, and it's not like we don't have very good Irish coaches working in Europe too are our own quality players; but yeah, I think Ireland are have definitely learned from some more successful nations.

Some good points there. This is why I'm against the calls (in Wales) for 100% welsh qualified regional squads, and the criticism of picking foreigner players. That's great for the national team in the short term, but a sprinkling of influence, ideas and playing style from around the world I think adds to the options the coaching team has (options during the game and in training). I'm happy with the current quota limit (4 or 5 in a regional match day squad I think). Welsh only would limit us to the experiences of those who've been through the schools and/or academy system, which doesn't promote much diversity then. Unless we send them around the globe for experience at a young age...