England vs Ireland, Part 2

First topic message reminder :

You beauties...

What a crackin game....

Wish there was a game next week...

Yeah, me too.

Remember when it was 5 Nations and one side could have 3/4 weeks off if the fixtures fell against them?  

I'm afraid Nowell looked a bit out of his depth - he must stop dropping balls. May adds a bit of spark and unpredictability, but he has to finish better. I'm not sure either add more than Ashton tbh.

Chance for Yarde to come back in? I'd let them finish the 6N I think both add a bit but lack composure

Did BOD really miss 3/3 tackles and D'arcy 11/0, blimey surely that can't be right.

Wait till tomorrow, stats could change

And not hearing enough for Danny C - he was excellent.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:And not hearing enough for Danny C - he was excellent.

Couldn't agree more Barney - he's made a real difference.

yeah, the Care-Farrell partnership has really clicked nicely for me, been very pleasantly surprised by it. Care's running game keeps the defense honest which in turn allows Farrell that little bit more time to make the decision.

Generally England very much moving in the right direction. I'm a little unsure on Nowell (who's pretty good, but doesn't seem to offer anything special and makes a few too many mistakes). However, the team is gelling very nicely, the combinations are starting to be worked out, feeling very optimistic about the future.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:yeah, the Care-Farrell partnership has really clicked nicely for me, been very pleasantly surprised by it. Care's running game keeps the defense honest which in turn allows Farrell that little bit more time to make the decision.

Generally England very much moving in the right direction. I'm a little unsure on Nowell (who's pretty good, but doesn't seem to offer anything special and makes a few too many mistakes). However, the team is gelling very nicely, the combinations are starting to be worked out, feeling very optimistic about the future.

I think for players like Nowell, bomber will give them time. I mean not everyone puts in impressive performances straight away.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:And not hearing enough for Danny C - he was excellent.

I agree, but there is no love for T. Youngs either. He didn't mess up a single line out!   

Nathan - genuine question - did he throw into any lineouts (I can't remember.) I seem to remember him doing some fine work in the scrum and him chasing and almost catching a back!

He didn't get one I think but his loose work was very good

Yeah, he looked hungry. Good signs.

stub wrote:Nathan - genuine question - did he throw into any lineouts (I can't remember.) I seem to remember him doing some fine work in the scrum and him chasing and almost catching a back!

No he didn't throw any - I was trying to be funny. I still believe in the loose he's really good, just needs to sort his throwing out.

nathan wrote:

stub wrote:Nathan - genuine question - did he throw into any lineouts (I can't remember.) I seem to remember him doing some fine work in the scrum and him chasing and almost catching a back!

No he didn't throw any - I was trying to be funny. I still believe in the loose he's really good, just needs to sort his throwing out.

It'd be great if his lineout work was reliable - would give England real options.

Yeah for sure, two weeks will be good Cyril.

It certainly added to the game as a spectacle. I also thought singing Jerusalem not long before kickoff was good too (always loved that song since the living with lions DVD from 97).

I saw the corridors etc on the Beeb but had no sound in the pub so didn't know if they explained the significance. Between that and the whole lights out thing in the Millennium last night I thought it really added to the occasion both times.

ME-109 wrote:

nathan wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:POM was kept quiet by Woodshaw as predicted

I had to check the line ups to see that POM played, jesus that boy did nothing of note. I do think he's HUGELY overated by some posters on here, he's a decent flank but no Ferris.

POM aside I thought the Irish pack went well and had the upperhand through most of the game. We just played better in the right areas of the pitch although we should have put more on the board with our territory advantage.

May/Nowell are still very much work in progress, both made some big errors. I'm stillnot convinced Nowell is ready for this level of rugby, nothing has shown otherwise in 3 caps.

Why single out Pom what about heaslip or Henry?

Because POM is the best player in the northern hemisphere.

based on todays game he isn't.

Was still the best backrow on display today by a mile...

Na, Rory Best was... And the best hooker

Aren't backrow players or hookers meant to make their tackles?

Did BOD Leave the field injured? or was he just subbed for the sake of it?

majesticimperialman wrote:Did BOD Leave the field injured? or was he just subbed for the sake of it?

I think he walked off limping, not sure how bad it was though.

The updated stats are in. Robshaw made 22 tackles, missing one. Throw in his excellent offload for the try and his general work and you have a top notch display.

By contrast Ireland's top tacklers were Henry (15) and Toner (14). They put in an awful lot of work while others huffed and puffed but were ineffective. Best missed five. As good as he was in every other part of his game, that is a poor stat.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The updated stats are in.  Robshaw made 22 tackles, missing one.  Throw in his excellent offload for the try and his general work and you have a top notch display.  

By contrast Ireland's top tacklers were Henry (15) and Toner (14). They put in an awful lot of work while others huffed and puffed but were ineffective.  Best missed five.  As good as he was in every other part of his game, that is a poor stat.

Mike Ross made 11 and missed 1 tackle and made 9 metres on four carries more than both....what does that tell you...

Toner and Henry were good for around the fringes nothing more....both had absolutely little of consequence to offer...

Does every thread involving Ireland or anything Irish in any way regress to an interprovincial argument about who produces the best players?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Does every thread involving Ireland or anything Irish in any way regress to an interprovincial argument about who produces the best players?

Yes and no...it would take to long to explain...you are english and you dont understand us, therefore its not worth explaining.

Fair enough, just interested as there seems to be a greater degree of it than for other countries!

Ok here is the 30 second explanation
Ireland is defined by locality...

Ireland, Provinces. Counties (an English invention) - down to town, city, village, parish....

It starts at the bottom (say parish, neighbourhood etc). You learn first to compete with the next one...

The province thing is just an extension of that.

Ok good luck with the rest of the tournament, bed time now

ME-109 wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The updated stats are in.  Robshaw made 22 tackles, missing one.  Throw in his excellent offload for the try and his general work and you have a top notch display.  

By contrast Ireland's top tacklers were Henry (15) and Toner (14). They put in an awful lot of work while others huffed and puffed but were ineffective.  Best missed five.  As good as he was in every other part of his game, that is a poor stat.

Mike Ross made 11 and missed 1 tackle and made 9 metres on four carries more than both....what does that tell you...

Toner and Henry were good for around the fringes nothing more....both had absolutely little of consequence to offer...

Try two eyes, you might even enjoy it sometime. You've gone beyond being a parody on here and its shown during the Six Nations. Shame. At least if you were funny....Ah well, sure baby, at least you still got the big ol' baby blues. I could never be mad at that face.

Henry also beat two defenders, the most of any Irish forward until Henderson came on. He changed the direction of play very well from the lineout. And he was in the thick of the action as his tackle count shows. POM was inconsequential at the breakdown, with Henry & Best making more turnovers. Your earlier comment about Henry's turnovers being of little consequences was another window into your sad little anti-Ulster soul. Any turnover is important, and if it is wasted by another team member then thats hardly the fault of the person that won it is it now? Of course, its different if they are from Lulster. Silly me. Must be said, England protected the breakdown well and Best & Henry with 2 turnovers (according to Opta) isn't a great return in that part of the match. It's not a criticism of POM or anyone else, its praise for a job well done to England. Heaslip's carrying was very disappointing. Murray's decision making at times in giving the ball to stationary players was poor. Murray was majorly hindered by Sexton's indecision, uncertainty and overall abject performance. The Irish pack presented enough ball, and quality ball, for us to win the match. Murray-Sexton-D'Arcy all had pretty poor matches.

Part 2.

Munster - Like Connacht...dislike Leinster.. disregard - Ulster.
Leinster - like - no one...dislike (in order) Munster , Ulster, Connacht (afraid of them)
Ulster - no one cares.

BlueMuff wrote:Good one Joe leave Ireland's most exciting and dangerous back at home. And then take Healy off at a 5 metre scrum when we are killing them in the scrum and bring on McGrath. Then bring on mr average McFadden. As much as joe got it right last week he got it wrong this week and had no plan b because he had the wrong personnel.

Based on your posts so far regarding Schmidt, you would think you wanted him to fail.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The updated stats are in.  Robshaw made 22 tackles, missing one.  Throw in his excellent offload for the try and his general work and you have a top notch display.  

By contrast Ireland's top tacklers were Henry (15) and Toner (14). They put in an awful lot of work while others huffed and puffed but were ineffective.  Best missed five.  As good as he was in every other part of his game, that is a poor stat.

Mike Ross made 11 and missed 1 tackle and made 9 metres on four carries more than both....what does that tell you...

Toner and Henry were good for around the fringes nothing more....both had absolutely little of consequence to offer...

Try two eyes, you might even enjoy it sometime.  You've gone beyond being a parody on here and its shown during the Six Nations.  Shame.  At least if you were funny....Ah well, sure baby, at least you still got the big ol' baby blues.  I could never be mad at that face.

Henry also beat two defenders, the most of any Irish forward until Henderson came on.  He changed the direction of play very well from the lineout.  And he was in the thick of the action as his tackle count shows. POM was inconsequential at the breakdown, with Henry & Best making more turnovers.  Your earlier comment about Henry's turnovers being of little consequences was another window into your sad little anti-Ulster soul.  Any turnover is important, and if it is wasted by another team member then thats hardly the fault of the person that won it is it now?  Of course, its different if they are from Lulster.  Silly me.  Must be said, England protected the breakdown well and Best & Henry with 2 turnovers (according to Opta) isn't a great return in that part of the match.  It's not a criticism of POM or anyone else, its praise for a job well done to England.  Heaslip's carrying was very disappointing.  Murray's decision making at times in giving the ball to stationary players was poor.  Murray was majorly hindered by Sexton's indecision, uncertainty and overall abject performance.  The Irish pack presented enough ball, and quality ball, for us to win the match.  Murray-Sexton-D'Arcy all had pretty poor matches.    

Yeah beat two defenders in making 5 metres...effing hell how did we lose. its not a criticism of Henry either believe me but he was not a game changer, sure he tackled his heart out...great...but he hasnt brought anything else to the three games for us...regardless...POM wasnt great but was the most effective...hey dont believe me most of the reports note that as well...

As for heaslip as i said earlier he actually carried the ball more than anyone and went nowhere....

The whole backline was extraordinary for being ordinary...

its six games in and so far we have beaten samoa (wow), scotland (big wow) and Wales (wowser)...

still willing to give big Joe a break though....cant wait for the next squad though....(yawn)

Meant to say...can you point out Henry's turnover(s) was so overwhelmed I cant remember them...also stop with the silly personal comments they are childish.

Changes need to made to the first 15. You can't have both Kearney and Trimble on the wings they are too similar. Please let Zebo back in the team.

Henry is not good enough at this level imo .I'm afraid we need SOB back asap but TOD could offer good dynamism in the backrow. If Sexton continues like that he should be dropped...

For the future I do think POM would probably be best suited to number 8, his skill set would be best utilised there, and Henderson could play at 6.  Or O'Brien of course.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Changes need to made to the first 15. You can't have both Kearney and Trimble on the wings they are too similar. Please let Zebo back in the team.

Henry is not good enough at this level imo .I'm afraid we need SOB back asap but TOD could offer good dynamism in the backrow. If Sexton continues like that he should be dropped...

For who? The difference between Sexton and the next best is a chasm of large proportions.

ME-109 wrote:Henry made no turnovers today and if he did it was inconsequential, made his tackles but the game seemed to pass him by..POM wasn't great today but was effective in what was clearly his role..

I cannot think of one play Henry was involved in either turn overs carries anything!!!

Well Madigan or Jackson could come in for the Italy game as Italy are simply woeful atm I'm sorry to say. Obviously for France Sexton has to start and just hope he turns up.

Sexton needs to get back to Ireland asap to return to the form he showed over the past couole of seasons.

Sexton was good last match though...

I must say Sexton is the last player I would change on the team. Sure he showed some inconsistencies today that were a blast from the past but he is still to good to drop

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:Good one Joe leave Ireland's most exciting and dangerous back at home. And then take Healy off at a 5 metre scrum when we are killing them in the scrum and bring on McGrath. Then bring on mr average McFadden. As much as joe got it right last week he got it wrong this week and had no plan b because he had the wrong personnel.

Based on your posts so far regarding Schmidt, you would think you wanted him to fail.

Like what criticising him for leaving out a lion and one if Ireland's most attacking players that we could have badly done with today! I praised him after the wales game and I'm criticising him after today's game.

BlueMuff wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

BlueMuff wrote:Good one Joe leave Ireland's most exciting and dangerous back at home. And then take Healy off at a 5 metre scrum when we are killing them in the scrum and bring on McGrath. Then bring on mr average McFadden. As much as joe got it right last week he got it wrong this week and had no plan b because he had the wrong personnel.

Based on your posts so far regarding Schmidt, you would think you wanted him to fail.

Like what criticising him for leaving out a lion and one if Ireland's most attacking players that we could have badly done with today! I praised him after the wales game and I'm criticising him after today's game.

Rory...as KiaRose said elsewhere..there is a big blue tint to the squad...JS decided to take the blue player over others (white or red) on marginal decisions...fair enough we all want the team to do well...however when some obvious issues arise as they did for todays game then questioning the coach is a fair cop...

for example.
1. We ended up with a full Leinster backline today sheparded by Boss....ffs...
2. He subbed Trimble for McFadden (Trimble was having a good game up to then)
3. Kearney Junior got run down by Joe Launchberry...
4. For Cares try Darcy shot up and then tackled the wrong man. Kearney senior then tackled Brown instead of letting Kearney junior who was bearing down on him.
5. Henderson should have been on earlier.
6. He bloods Jordi Murphy in Twickenham...didnt make a great impression.

It was a game there for the taking...why didnt we take it.

POM made at least 2 turnovers today. He also carried the ball the furthest and mostly in traffic. Did anyone hear Woods name being mentioned???


It must have really hurt a few egos in the last few weeks that POM has gotten so much praise. I knew that if Ireland underperformed at all POM would be singled out for criticism because the bruised egos can't handle being wrong and need to be right. Opinions are goood, being opinionated is not good.


Nice way to deflect any criticism from the real culprit.... Sexton. It was thee worst display from an Irish 10 I can remember. The amount of possession he squandered made it impossible for Ireland to win. Ireland were comfortable until Sexton imploded once again in a big match.

Just to add...

The forwards also provided plenty of ball...we won the set piece battle hands down....and still lost...

This Irish team will eventually come good under Schmidt once a few of the older lads are pushed on. He has remained loyal to some players which is understandable given the success they brought him only a couple seasons ago and even last season.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This Irish team will eventually come good under Schmidt once a few of the older lads are pushed on. He has remained loyal to some players which is understandable given the success they brought him only a couple seasons ago and even last season.

I hope you are right. The major problem is Darce and BOD...we have a world cup next year and no one coming through. JS as he has shown with Leinster does not seem able to use/trust others....we have no obvious centre combination...judas priest if this was under Kidney the paint would be coming off the walls.

I know it was a low scoring match but it's still remarkable that we didn't see any points in the first and last quarters. No-one missed a shot at goal in that forty minutes either.

England are still coming up short on scoring opportunities. That becomes more of an issue when we don't have set piece dominance, and so get fewer penalty awards in range of the posts. Both May and Nowell have shown some promise but they haven't made more of their chances than the previous incumbents. Ironically, its more likely a player such as Ashton would have been there in support of Brown when he made his break up the middle in the opening minutes.

We held our nerve today but it puts a lot of pressure on our defence when the opposition only needs a score to turn the tables. Wales beat us last year by knocking the stuffing out of us and taking the game out of sight. The only major team we have done that to since Bomber took over is New Zealand. We need to find a way to make more of our momentum or else we'll just be a more defensively sound version of Andy Robinson's Scotland.

Firstly,  congrats England.  This was billed as a battle of he coaches in some quarters. If it was, then, on this occasion, Lancaster won.

I don't often go to the stats sites, but I had noticed that Murray was not doing many box kicks, so I did go to ESPN to check their stats.  He kicked only 3 times and passed 106!  This is an area of his game which has improved hugely in the last 12 to 18 months.  I have to assume that it was part of the game plan to leave the kicking duties almost entirely to Sexton. Sadly Sexton was a little below par today (alright, a lot below his stellar best).  However it does make me wonder at the amount of micro-managing of the game which the coaches are undertaking.  

Sexton and Murray have been working well together. They have built a very good understanding - dare I say since their time together with the Lions. I would have hoped that seeing that Sexton's kicking game was a bit off then surely someone on the team, the captain or oneof the other senior players should be able to vary the planalittle and let Murray take over some of the kicking duties from behind scrums or rucks?  This did not seem to happen.  And this leads me to another question.

Therehas been a lot of talk about Schmidt giving players work-ons and the importance of them adhering to his game plan.  Is it writ on tablets of stone? Dare the players not deviate from it ? What happens if they do? Is their place at risk? If so, this is control freakery of the highest and most destructive order.

I am disappointed that Ireland lost yesterday, but I wasn't surprised. As I said elsewhere on this forum, we had no game breakers, no one with the X factor anywhere in the backline

ME-109 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:This Irish team will eventually come good under Schmidt once a few of the older lads are pushed on. He has remained loyal to some players which is understandable given the success they brought him only a couple seasons ago and even last season.

I hope you are right. The major problem is Darce and BOD...we have a world cup next year and no one coming through. JS as he has shown with Leinster does not seem able to use/trust others....we have no obvious centre combination...judas priest if this was under Kidney the paint would be coming off the walls.

If they are not going to be at the World cup why are they in the team?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Does every thread involving Ireland or anything Irish in any way regress to an interprovincial argument about who produces the best players?

Yup but that's because the Munster and Leinster boys are always letting the side down.

I thought that Sexton had a bad game yesterday and was screaming for Jackson to be brought on after 60mins. Sexton is way too good to be dropped but JS has to realise that when he is not having a good game that it is ok to sub him.

D'Arcy was again seriously poor. He may still be able to do it against teams not as good as England but he was found out again. Really grateful for all he has done in an Irish shirt but its time for him to leave. Marshall was the obvious choice for yesterday I feel.

JS's substitutions were extremely poor yesterday and it showed to me that he has no faith in subbing the players he knows, even when playing poorly. To me that's a sign of bad coaching and questions should be asked. If this was Kidney then he would be hung drawn and quartered for that.

England played well and are more than deserving of their win but it was incredibly poor management that lost Ireland the game. Lancaster got it 100% correct yesterday.