England vs Ireland, Part 2

First topic message reminder :

You beauties...

What a crackin game....

Oh and subbing Trimble was just poor, he has done a great job and was playing very well yesterday.

I have just posted this on another thread.

Ireland did not become a bad team over night.

England was simply a better team on the day.

At half time any one would of thought that the game would end up being a draw with the way the game was going.

But England fought back and made it very interesting when Danny Care went over and made it 10 all. And then Ireland gave away a penalty and Farrel booted it over.

Ireland with their experience could not brake England defence sive line, but did not make it any easyer for England it was a hard fought game the best of the tournament so far imo.

How much longer can the likes of Darcey, Oconnel keep going for? will they both be in the team/squad for the RWC? Or should the question be more like Darcey and Ocnnel should not be in the team/squad for the RWC

I think that this was a remarkably good result from a patched-up England side. There's still oodles of talent still injured or currently off their required form.
I'm feeling buoyed with confidence. We'll still come second this year though. But with players to come back, I "Believe".

Cor...I'm beginning to realise how much of fluke England's win was yesterday. So many things the Irish got a little wrong that would have won them the game. If only you didn't keep getting stuck with those HEC winning coaches. You should try someone who coached the like of Leeds. That would sort you out.



Edit: Do you have anyone like Gary Neville who can come and tell you how it feels to play for Ireland?

I'm not even sure England were the better team.
I think it was Karma from the French game paying us back what we were owed!
Same goes for France against Wales - every bounce and 50-50 call went Frances way against England - nothing went Frances way against Wales.
Karma!

majesticimperialman wrote:...But England fought back and made it very interesting when Danny Care went over and made it 10 all. And then Ireland gave away a penalty and Farrel booted it over....

That's the wrong way round. Farrell kicked the penalty first. Sexton then put the restart into touch. Ireland disrupted the resulting scrum but England recovered, and that was the passage of play which saw Care go under the posts.

I knew we would win

we won

we deserved it

we played ok..

the bookies had us big favs

we have world class players.

we players at home

i come and read this nonsense.. That we were lucky etc.

as i have allways said England never win even when do..

To be honest, when a team got smashed in the scrum like that it's surprising England did win. I was thinking it was only a matter of time before someone got carded but it never happened. Competed well otherwise

HammerofThunor wrote:Cor...I'm beginning to realise how much of fluke England's win was yesterday. So many things the Irish got a little wrong that would have won them the game. If only you didn't keep getting stuck with those HEC winning coaches. You should try someone who coached the like of Leeds. That would sort you out.



Edit: Do you have anyone like Gary Neville who can come and tell you how it feels to play for Ireland?

It was no fluke that England won, they are a very solid team. Its just that some people (myself included) feel that England were beatable yesterday and are slightly frustrated at the decisions made by JS. Lancaster outthought JS and is continuing to show just what a good job he has done and is continuing to do. Good luck with the Triple Crown

Feicking get over it. We won .

about tine we didn't falter last ten . Sl learnt his lesson.. He is moving on

Morning gentlemen I hope some of your heads are as sore as mine this morning!

I just can't stop smiling after that win and to think how Ireland ripped apart wales only a few days before and to do it with such a young team, let the good times roll. 

I am not sure if your aggressive post is directed at me mystiroakey but you really need to calm down.

Scrumpy wrote:Morning gentlemen I hope some of your heads are as sore as mine this morning!

I just can't stop smiling after that win and to think how Ireland ripped apart wales only a few days before and to do it with such a young team, let the good times roll. 

Massive congrats, hope that puts the disappointment of losing the French match somewhat to bed.

Really cant compliment Danny Care enough, he has been superb for you guys.

Tbh, I thought England will be annoyed at the chances they missed- especially the two times they kicked to the corner and turned down the 3 points! That was madness.

Had England been penalised for hands in the scrum at the end turning down those kicks at goal would have cost them the win. They deserved to win the game, but turning down points when they were on offer could have easily let Ireland sneak a draw or win against the run of play. There are still issues about decision making in this England side for me.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Edit: Do you have anyone like Gary Neville who can come and tell you how it feels to play for Ireland?

I think Irelands real issue is that they have no identity, they need to walk through the crowd on the way to games.   

Notch wrote:Tbh, I thought England will be annoyed at the chances they missed- especially the two times they kicked to the corner and turned down the 3 points! That was madness.

Had England been penalised for hands in the scrum at the end turning down those kicks at goal would have cost them the win. They deserved to win the game, but turning down points when they were on offer could have easily let Ireland sneak a draw or win against the run of play. There are still issues about decision making in this England side for me.

That's what makes the win even sweeter!  

Now I know how Leicester felt when the hand of Back took place.

Notch wrote:Tbh, I thought England will be annoyed at the chances they missed- especially the two times they kicked to the corner and turned down the 3 points! That was madness.

Had England been penalised for hands in the scrum at the end turning down those kicks at goal would have cost them the win. They deserved to win the game, but turning down points when they were on offer could have easily let Ireland sneak a draw or win against the run of play. There are still issues about decision making in this England side for me.

I agree completely with you on this Notch.

It was a good performance with character & heart but then again Georgia play with Character & Heart too. Our decision making seriously needs to improve... we are no where neargood enough yet.

Don't take this the wrong way... but if England are to challenge at the RWC next year then that should have been a thumping for Ireland at HQ and not the close game it was.

No doubt, it's one of the sweetest feelings in the game when you get away with it and fair play to England for that but they should have been further ahead than 3 points. They still aren't getting the returns on the scoreboard they should be.

I don't think England will win the 6N due to points difference, unless it comes down to England and France being tied at the top. No bad thing maybe. They still need to learn to be more clinical to really reach their potential.

Notch wrote:No doubt, it's one of the sweetest feelings in the game when you get away with it and fair play to England for that but they should have been further ahead than 3 points. They still aren't getting the returns on the scoreboard they should be.

I don't think England will win the 6N due to points difference, unless it comes down to England and France being tied at the top. No bad thing maybe. They still need to learn to be more clinical to really reach their potential.

But we all know Robshaw isn't the best captain, we need more leaders on the field Farrell is the goal kicker when we get a penalty he should be grabbing that ball just like wilko used too.

True, true. It needs to be addressed if England want to be realistic contenders for the RWC on home soil. I feel like England were about 9-12 points better than Ireland on the balance of play but we could have snuck it due to the number of times they let us off the hook.

Danny Care really needs to find a cure for White Line Fever, it is a debilitating illness that makes the sufferer feel the impulse to find the biggest guys on the pitch and dive on top of them.

Ireland always looked dangerous but we should have had a 6/7 point cushion with the chances that we had.

Scrumpy wrote:Ireland always looked dangerous but we should have had a 6/7 point cushion with the chances that we had.

this is the sort of talk that really annoys me.

last two big games- we messed up minor leads last 10.

this time we didn't.

come on smallish steps.. dont expect miracles with the young team just yet.

lets learn how to WIN first - then how to win BIG

2 tries and 2 easy penalties wasted, notch is right the decision making will have to improve. Someone needs to take control on the field that IMO should be either Robshaw or Farrell.

Congratulations England.  You played the game everyone and his dog knew you would play (fierce pace designed to tire and stretch from the get-go) and played it with disciplin and accuracy.  It was a massive crunch-up and you came out on the better end.  Back in the hunt for the Championship - Fortress Twickers retained, and now brimming with confidence for the visit of Wales.  Lancaster will feel he's done most of what he planned to do in week 4 of the 6N.

But he was Mighty Pleased it worked out that way!  As were his fellow coaches.  That was a massive release of pressure at the end - and that's because he knew how close 3 points are in such a charged game, and he knows his side fought a genuine hard hitting side to get those 3 points in his home ground.

I was as sick as a dog yesterday because I felt there were mistakes from the Irish team, when ahead, that gave momentum back to the English.  England applied a good bit of that pressure, of course, that led to bad decision making - but it came also from a place where Irish players still showed they're trying to get their head around all the new detail Schmidt is bringing.

There are times when I felt a little pure Munster-style ancient animal instincts might have swung the score more in our favour, and I sensed that was being sidetracked by players trying to keep to patterns and detail - (science over passion in a weird sense).  It all looked a little 'numbery' and confused from Ireland, but they still walked away from Fortress Twickenham, and a very relieved Lancaster, only three points adrift.

Lancaster knows he wasn't hit by old Kidneyesque Ireland.  Ireland knows they will regard that as an okay game but certainly not one where all players fired equally - but we didn't implode, we didn't do our one half effort and then die.  
Four solid games in a row now (must be getting on for a record from recent years!) - players learning Schmidt's desires and structures all the way, still fumbling gameplans to an extent, still lingering too much at the 9 posiiton!  

But a bloody good effort and lots for Schmidt to video analyse now.  You can't get to know an opponent coach until you actually play against them and work on the post-game info.  Again, congratulations England.  You won it because you deserved to win it.  Well played.

I totally agree with that- and made that point pre game..

however... its not one leader we need - you need 3 at least to be one of the best sides.. if OF goes off- we need someone else.. Hartley could become one as well. Not show about robshaw at all and he is the captain..So i we want to be critical- lets start with him

I think Brown could step up and start to lead the backs.

I mentioned before all of browns efforts are becoming wasted. because he allways beats the first man or two- with no one next to him.- its akin to a winger in football running down blind alleys with the rest of the team in there own half..

Thank gawd for the Quins element and that care made it work for once.

Our players need to push up when brown gets the ball

For a neutral Welshman who usually supports the Celtic nations against England but, with the current status of the 6N an England win was favourite. I thought is was a tense first half but a superb second half which either side could have won, in fact a draw would have probably been the fairest result.

As usual the Ref was a homer and gave England the benefit of the doubt, blatant obstruction in a driving lineout, scrum offences, and there was no chance he was going to give Ireland a penalty in the last 5mins to draw the game!

Still great game of rugby and if both sides carry their form into week Sunday's game it should be another cracker.

As far as 6 nATions go - this one has been very good.

Almost Up there with the RC - without the clinic finishing- but still very close IMO

SecretFly wrote:
Lancaster knows he wasn't hit by old Kidneyesque Ireland.  Ireland knows they will regard that as an okay game but certainly not one where all players fired equally - but we didn't implode, we didn't do our one half effort and then die.  
Four solid games in a row now (must be getting on for a record from recent years!) - players learning Schmidt's desires and structures all the way, still fumbling gameplans to an extent, still lingering too much at the 9 posiiton!  

But a bloody good effort and lots for Schmidt to video analyse now.  You can't get to know an opponent coach until you actually play against them and work on the post-game info.  Again, congratulations England.  You won it because you deserved to win it.  Well played.

It will be interesting to see how Schmidt reacts to this defeat. Tactically he was found wanting. No pace in the backline and relying too much on defence. I can't figure out why he has Boss on the bench, because he has clocked up all of 2 minutes in the last two games. Talking about cheap caps.

Kiss can take a bow - Ireland's defence is outstanding and if we do win the championship, it will be down to that.

Congrats England on the win, you deserved it.

Nachos Jones wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Cor...I'm beginning to realise how much of fluke England's win was yesterday. So many things the Irish got a little wrong that would have won them the game. If only you didn't keep getting stuck with those HEC winning coaches. You should try someone who coached the like of Leeds. That would sort you out.



Edit: Do you have anyone like Gary Neville who can come and tell you how it feels to play for Ireland?

It was no fluke that England won, they are a very solid team. Its just that some people (myself included) feel that England were beatable yesterday and are slightly frustrated at the decisions made by JS. Lancaster outthought JS and is continuing to show just what a good job he has done and is continuing to do. Good luck with the Triple Crown

Hmm, I'm not sure SL did out-think JS, sort of depends how you look at it. For example it's clear SL had us practising defending mauls a LOT. JS obviously thought 'Let them practice defending mauls all week, we won't touch them except when very close to the line' - generally I think that was quite shrewd, but I suspect the players overdid it a bit in going the other way. Also, there's a lot of talk of Ireland's kicking game not being as good, and not spotting the space behind our back-line. Again, I think Ireland had looked at this, did try it, but the execution was just a little off. Even the back-line play with a double loop was something that set you apart from our backs, who looked worryingly deep to me.

In all instances, it looked to me like JS had looked at the game more inventively, just the players didn't quite pull it off.

I think it was just a close game that could have gone either way. Given it was on our turf that probably doesn't reflect too badly on Ireland either.

Nachos Jones wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Morning gentlemen I hope some of your heads are as sore as mine this morning!

I just can't stop smiling after that win and to think how Ireland ripped apart wales only a few days before and to do it with such a young team, let the good times roll. 

Massive congrats, hope that puts the disappointment of losing the French match somewhat to bed.

Really cant compliment Danny Care enough, he has been superb for you guys.

Really glad Care has come good (or at least improved at this level). Some of us were suggesting him instead of Youngs for a while   

it reflects finely on irerland- because ireland shouldnt look like they have deteriorated.

very similar to england losing to france.. home advantage is worth 5 points to be honest..

England did the job they set out to. Ireland just fell short - but didnt play badly- so its a plus for both sides looking forward.

Ireland favs for the championship still and England back in it.

If Ireland win the championship they will have still beaten England..

Notch wrote:Tbh, I thought England will be annoyed at the chances they missed- especially the two times they kicked to the corner and turned down the 3 points! That was madness.

Had England been penalised for hands in the scrum at the end turning down those kicks at goal would have cost them the win. They deserved to win the game, but turning down points when they were on offer could have easily let Ireland sneak a draw or win against the run of play. There are still issues about decision making in this England side for me.

100% agree. That worried me too. There were far too many times when we were deep in their half but came away with nothing.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Lancaster knows he wasn't hit by old Kidneyesque Ireland.  Ireland knows they will regard that as an okay game but certainly not one where all players fired equally - but we didn't implode, we didn't do our one half effort and then die.  
Four solid games in a row now (must be getting on for a record from recent years!) - players learning Schmidt's desires and structures all the way, still fumbling gameplans to an extent, still lingering too much at the 9 posiiton!  

But a bloody good effort and lots for Schmidt to video analyse now.  You can't get to know an opponent coach until you actually play against them and work on the post-game info.  Again, congratulations England.  You won it because you deserved to win it.  Well played.

It will be interesting to see how Schmidt reacts to this defeat. Tactically he was found wanting. No pace in the backline and relying too much on defence. I can't figure out why he has Boss on the bench, because he has clocked up all of 2 minutes in the last two games. Talking about cheap caps.

Kiss can take a bow - Ireland's defence is outstanding and if we do win the championship, it will be down to that.

Congrats England on the win, you deserved it.

Thanks for that Sin.... a little sad and a little exceedingly happy in equal measure, it seems.  Lucky guy to be able to do that.  I envy you

Yes... I'd agree with you.  I don't know why Boss was left on the bench.  We're not fast enough there - as Care glaringly let's us know!!!!
So the question is yes: "Schmidt, why didn't you let Boss have a good run in the second half?"  Good question, Sin

Hood83 wrote:

Notch wrote:Tbh, I thought England will be annoyed at the chances they missed- especially the two times they kicked to the corner and turned down the 3 points! That was madness.

Had England been penalised for hands in the scrum at the end turning down those kicks at goal would have cost them the win. They deserved to win the game, but turning down points when they were on offer could have easily let Ireland sneak a draw or win against the run of play. There are still issues about decision making in this England side for me.

100% agree. That worried me too. There were far too many times when we were deep in their half but came away with nothing.

Ireland have the best defence & very good discipline in the championship. Only conceeded 1 try and a total of 22pts.

England & Wales have both conceeded 4 tries each.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Lancaster knows he wasn't hit by old Kidneyesque Ireland.  Ireland knows they will regard that as an okay game but certainly not one where all players fired equally - but we didn't implode, we didn't do our one half effort and then die.  
Four solid games in a row now (must be getting on for a record from recent years!) - players learning Schmidt's desires and structures all the way, still fumbling gameplans to an extent, still lingering too much at the 9 posiiton!  

But a bloody good effort and lots for Schmidt to video analyse now.  You can't get to know an opponent coach until you actually play against them and work on the post-game info.  Again, congratulations England.  You won it because you deserved to win it.  Well played.

It will be interesting to see how Schmidt reacts to this defeat. Tactically he was found wanting. No pace in the backline and relying too much on defence. I can't figure out why he has Boss on the bench, because he has clocked up all of 2 minutes in the last two games. Talking about cheap caps.

Kiss can take a bow - Ireland's defence is outstanding and if we do win the championship, it will be down to that.

Congrats England on the win, you deserved it.

Thanks for that Sin.... a little sad and a little exceedingly happy in equal measure, it seems.  Lucky guy to be able to do that.  I envy you

Yes... I'd agree with you.  I don't know why Boss was left on the bench.  We're not fast enough there - as Care glaringly let's us know!!!!
So the question is yes: "Schmidt, why didn't you let Boss have a good run in the second half?"  Good question, Sin

I don't know why Boss is on the bench!

I do... it should be in readiness to be on the field!  

You talk about defence?  Fine, Murray does defence.  
You give a little bite at the lack of attack.  Fine, Boss would be better.

Balance, Sin.  
Which do you prefer?  
Defence?  
Well then thank Schmidt for emphasising it so far.  You and he should be best buddies really - tactically very close to each other

Sin é wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

Notch wrote:Tbh, I thought England will be annoyed at the chances they missed- especially the two times they kicked to the corner and turned down the 3 points! That was madness.

Had England been penalised for hands in the scrum at the end turning down those kicks at goal would have cost them the win. They deserved to win the game, but turning down points when they were on offer could have easily let Ireland sneak a draw or win against the run of play. There are still issues about decision making in this England side for me.

100% agree. That worried me too. There were far too many times when we were deep in their half but came away with nothing.

Ireland have the best defence & very good discipline in the championship. Only conceeded 1 try and a total of 22pts.

England & Wales have both conceeded 4 tries each.

Sorry, yes, I wasn't giving Ireland enough credit. I actually meant as much about decision making. Kicking to the corner at the end of the first half for example. Ireland's defence is excellent, but if we'd made the decision to go wide earlier when May got the ball knocked from his hand, I'm not sure the best defence in the world could have dealt with the overlap. But yes, Ireland's defence is a might hard nut to crack.

Rugby Fan wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:...But England fought back and made it very interesting when Danny Care went over and made it 10 all. And then Ireland gave away a penalty and Farrel booted it over....

That's the wrong way round. Farrell kicked the penalty first. Sexton then put the restart into touch. Ireland disrupted the resulting scrum but England recovered, and that was the passage of play which saw Care go under the posts.

I do apologise i have just watched the game again and seen Farrel kick the penalty, and then care score the try.

I thought D'Arcy did ok, carried well and looked a threat.

I find these comments that POM played well bizarre, he did nothing. He was easily your least effective forward, you don't need stats to tell you that.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I thought D'Arcy did ok, carried well and looked a threat.

I find these comments that POM played well bizarre, he did nothing. He was easily your least effective forward, you don't need stats to tell you that.

Obviously a Lulster fan in disguise. How dare you sir. How dare you. The power of ROG compels you. Be gone demon

SecretFly wrote:I do... it should be in readiness to be on the field!  

You talk about defence?  Fine, Murray does defence.  
You give a little bite at the lack of attack.  Fine, Boss would be better.

Balance, Sin.  
Which do you prefer?  
Defence?  
Well then thank Schmidt for emphasising it so far.  You and he should be best buddies really - tactically very close to each other

Murray is just a better scrum half than Boss. And I don't think the defence would have suffered if there was a gamebreaker like Zebo on the bench who has a bit of pace.

Though maybe the reason McFadden is there as a kicking comfort blanket for Paddy Jackson if Sexton has to come off.

My point is that the blues fans were all insulted when Kidney gave Leo a 2 minute cap and Kidney had to apologise for it. Now Boss has had 2 x 1 minute caps and the insult isn't even noticed.

SecretFly wrote:I do... it should be in readiness to be on the field!  

You talk about defence?  Fine, Murray does defence.  
You give a little bite at the lack of attack.  Fine, Boss would be better.

Balance, Sin.  
Which do you prefer?  
Defence?  
Well then thank Schmidt for emphasising it so far.  You and he should be best buddies really - tactically very close to each other

Murray does defence? I don't think Mike Brown would agree with you there. Murray was hugely culpable for England's try, he ought to have done much better. It is not like Murray at all. I wondered if he had a knock because he looked extremely laboured the rest of the match. All the more reason to ask Schmidt why Boss didn't come on.

Metal Tiger wrote:

Notch wrote:Tbh, I thought England will be annoyed at the chances they missed- especially the two times they kicked to the corner and turned down the 3 points! That was madness.

Had England been penalised for hands in the scrum at the end turning down those kicks at goal would have cost them the win. They deserved to win the game, but turning down points when they were on offer could have easily let Ireland sneak a draw or win against the run of play. There are still issues about decision making in this England side for me.

I agree completely with you on this Notch.

It was a good performance with character & heart but then again Georgia play with Character & Heart too. Our decision making seriously needs to improve... we are no where neargood enough yet.

Don't take this the wrong way... but if England are to challenge at the RWC next year then that should have been a thumping for Ireland at HQ and not the close game it was.

Agreed; leadership and decision making particularly in the backline (we butchered 3 try scoring overlaps in the first seven minutes). The wings will, if not for Bomber, take care of themselves with Wade and Yarde coming back to form and fitness, however the flyhalf and IC, particularly the FL are not good enough to win a WC (Farrell does not have the world class game required - let’s be honest very few do). However I can't see Bomber resolving this issue unless remarkably Ford gets on the pitch and has a blinding 10 minutes and even then I doubt Bomber will buy it.

The final issue we have is and has been for sometime our lack of tested depth at prop and hooker.

So in what was a 'proper' championship test match, which is as close to WC conditions as we get here in the NH, we won a close match with lots of improvement potential. We must learn learn and keep on learning, however I do not believe Bomber has the necessary smarts to take the opportunity.

Well done to COS and the team at Harlequins, that was your reward.

Finally the question we have always to ask is will we win the world cup and right now I believe the answer is a 'NO' and that is most of all because of our weak attack. The All Blacks await the summer and one thing they win show us is how to attack.

I think I saw a bit of discussion about the England/Ireland game in between all this inter-province bickering.

Hood83 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

Notch wrote:Tbh, I thought England will be annoyed at the chances they missed- especially the two times they kicked to the corner and turned down the 3 points! That was madness.

Had England been penalised for hands in the scrum at the end turning down those kicks at goal would have cost them the win. They deserved to win the game, but turning down points when they were on offer could have easily let Ireland sneak a draw or win against the run of play. There are still issues about decision making in this England side for me.

100% agree. That worried me too. There were far too many times when we were deep in their half but came away with nothing.

Ireland have the best defence & very good discipline in the championship. Only conceeded 1 try and a total of 22pts.

England & Wales have both conceeded 4 tries each.

Sorry, yes, I wasn't giving Ireland enough credit. I actually meant as much about decision making. Kicking to the corner at the end of the first half for example. Ireland's defence is excellent, but if we'd made the decision to go wide earlier when May got the ball knocked from his hand, I'm not sure the best defence in the world could have dealt with the overlap. But yes, Ireland's defence is a might hard nut to crack.

I wasn't looking for Ireland credit - just you should not be too hard on England for not breaking the Ireland defence.

Ireland and England definitely have the best defence in the tournament (so far).

It's part of what made it such a compelling game yesterday.

Having said that England still need to face a pumped-up Wales and Ireland will find it tough in Paris where France are a different animal from on their travels.

It's extremely strange Cyril.

Maybe I don't understand as a Falcons fan as we have England players.

I thought countries were supposed to unite behind their national team?

Cumbrian wrote:Danny Care really needs to find a cure for White Line Fever, it is a debilitating illness that makes the sufferer feel the impulse to find the biggest guys on the pitch and dive on top of them.

Agreed, I thought he and Farrell were very poor in those opening minutes with the line begging and space a plenty outside.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I do... it should be in readiness to be on the field!  

You talk about defence?  Fine, Murray does defence.  
You give a little bite at the lack of attack.  Fine, Boss would be better.

Balance, Sin.  
Which do you prefer?  
Defence?  
Well then thank Schmidt for emphasising it so far.  You and he should be best buddies really - tactically very close to each other

Murray does defence?  I don't think Mike Brown would agree with you there.  Murray was hugely culpable for England's try, he ought to have done much better.  It is not like Murray at all.  I wondered if he had a knock because he looked extremely laboured the rest of the match.  All the more reason to ask Schmidt why Boss didn't come on.  

Nothing to do with D'Arcy charging up out of the line, leaving a massive gap and tackling the wrong player then?