Englands Tour of NZ - The Politics

First topic message reminder :

This thread has become a political thread so we'll make it that.

Just saying Botha fits the SL 5.5 mold too, not that he should or will pick him

I knew what you meant CJ, just the thought of that bright red scrum cap wound me up. Making yourself look that conspicuous and being that cack doesn't seem to go hand in hand

Ah i didnt realise Botha had played 6 before. Well its clear how Lancaster likes his locks to work.

Is this compromising the scrum?

According to this article

http://www.rfu.com/news/2014/march/news-articles/170314_lancaster_6n_review

an initial squad of 25-27 players will be selected around May 20, after the Jeff semis, and fly out that week.

That presumably means that Euro finalists (on May 23rd and 24th) will be excluded from the initial squad (there's a decent chance of an all-english Amlin final) so there may be reinforcements flying out after that, followed by the Prem finalists contingent the week after.

It also implies that the Eng v Baa-Baas game, on June 1st, will be a Saxons selection - possibly a little pointless as a warm-up game.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:It also implies that the Eng v Baa-Baas game, on June 1st, will be a Saxons selection - possibly a little pointless as a warm-up game.

It can't even really be a Saxons selection. Some players will inevitably be involved with the final, while Burrell, May, Nowell, Thomas and Mullan all featured in the England matchday squad. Outside those names, if any of the following teams are in the final, we are looking at at least three apiece:

Saints - Clark, Myler, Dickinson
Tigers - Allen, Kitchener, Tait
Saracens - Wigglesworth, Tomkins, Kruis, Fraser
Quins - Robson, Wallace, Monye, Collier
Bath - Joseph, Catt, Webber

One point of interest: if Cipriani isn't part of the tour, and Sale don't make the final, there's a possibility he would be selected at 10 for that match. With Farrell and Ford certain to travel, Burns, Myler and Slade are the other 10s. If Lancaster has Burns in mind to travel and Myler is in the final (big ifs) then Cipriani would be the next cab off the rank. If it ended up being Slade, then he should start assuming he's never going to feature in Bomber's plans.

I'm not sure what takes priority - Euro finals or England tour?

2 seasons ago, Sam Hill was pulled from Pirates in the second leg of the Championship final against London Welsh to go to JWC in South Africa. Now that was possibly the biggest game in Pirates' history, with a financial potential far exceeding an Amlin final. Could Lancs take Eastmond, Ford, Watson, Roko, Wilson, etc in the advance party to NZ if Bath reach the Amlin final, for example?

It's ok, we'll win the Amlin

ChequeredJersey wrote:It's ok, we'll win the Amlin

With Marler, Care, Brown in NZ?

edit: Blimey, forgot Robshaw

Amlin final is before Prem final this year.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Amlin final is before Prem final this year.

Yes, but after the initial squad flies to NZ. Question is whether England take priority over club for Amlin? Of course, if Quins get to Prem final, the question is redundant - we know that Jeff is priority over nation.

Imagine if it's an all England Amlin final and both sides aren't in the AP final and thus have to play a weakened side!

Not sure how the dual registration agreement works but the RFU deal has certain agreements regarding the U20, including I would imagine, release for JWC. The clubs will not have to release players before the season ends, if they do it's they're happy to.

Just thinking about the potential for Ford starting and his kicking issues. Could Daly be played on a wing to take some of the pressure off him? When ever i've watched him kick for Wasps he's seemed really reliable and I think he'd do well on a wing.

How do you boys view success from the tour?

a) 3 wins
b) 2 wins
c) 1 win
d) wins don't matter, as long as England look competitive and we see growth of the team
e) something else

I think one away win would be great, and then if we could win our home test in the autumn that would mean 2-2 and a moral victory over the four matches

One away win would still be pretty good even if we lose at home. No wins at all would be pretty disappointing.

Given the circumstances of the tour (not making excuses, they are what they are) I would be happy to win one of the Tests, push extremely close in one and get a few good performances from the back up players in the first game

I expect to win every game at home in the Autumn, and would be disappointed if we didn't

So have we sorted the problem at 6 out yet for the first test?

COuld Dave Ewers be an option?

blackcanelion wrote:How do you boys view success from the tour?

a) 3 wins
b) 2 wins
c) 1 win
d) wins don't matter, as long as England look competitive and we see growth of the team
e) something else

Given the fily ludicrous timing of the tour, I'd be content with (D) and delighted with (C), especially if we can get a bit more quality game time for some of the back ups and less experienced players.

I think we are developing well towards RWC 2015, but we're likely to arrive there with this team and squad on an upward curve, unlike with the 2003 team who were probably 6 months past their best - as such, I don't see us as yet being in the position where we can go to the SH and expect to win, like we were in 2002 and 2003..

Well...its done now...we'll be missing keys players in some positions whatever the 2 finalists turn out to be.

The thing is, some positions have depth and back up...ie Lawes out...im confident with Attwood making an impact. Hartley out...we have Youngs who is good despite his throwing issue at times.

Some positions dont have a lot of back up and no international experience at all.

I will very happy with 2 wins- but ok with 1.(out of 4 v NZ- so that includes both tours but just NZ)

Its time to believe lads. We are basically improving every game.. I expect. Call me foolish- but i expect. The timing doesn't bother me- we have players that seem to want to step up when called upon- we have depth and SL is learning.

The key positions are care, farrel and brown for me..

youngs needs to watch care play and learn- I have seen the occasional type of play needed from him- but then he went into his shell again.. Youngs will be fighting at the bit to show what he can do. Fodden is key as back up for brown and ford for farrel.

Ill revert to another thread...i think the spine is key..
2-4-8-9-10-15

Which at the moment is:
Hartley - Lawes / Launchbury - Vunipola / Morgan - Care - Farrell - Brown

Of those who can be replaced:
Hartley by Youngs? Maybe Webber needs looked at?
Lawes / Launchbury: Attwood can come in
Morgan was excellent in Vunipolas absence
Care - Probably not in the final so will be available
Farrell - Ford looks good, little experience for a NZ test starter though.
Brown - Probably not in the final so will be available

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well...its done now...we'll be missing keys players in some positions whatever the 2 finalists turn out to be.

The thing is, some positions have depth and back up...ie Lawes out...im confident with Attwood making an impact. Hartley out...we have Youngs who is good despite his throwing issue at times.

Some positions dont have a lot of back up and no international experience at all.

God help us if Robshaw or Farrell get injured...

Actually, other than the flanks and 10, things are shaping up well in terms of strength in depth. The absence of Dan Cole has been a bit of a blessing in showing that Wilson is a decent player and Henry Thomas is a much better scrummager at this level than most feared - certainly enough to be a viable third choice.

Probably need to give a third hooker (presumably Webber) more playing time, but otherwise I think the cover for the front row is sound, second row is plenty good enough, 8 is good. All we need for the forwards is to find another 6 and 7.

Other than 10, again this 6Ns has been good for developing the strength of the backs - shown that Burrell can more than handle Test match rugby and suddenly we have options in the centres, and while the wingers have been somewhat criticised I thnk Nowell in particular can be quietly pleased with the experience and progress made - probably in competition with Foden for the 23 jersey if Wade and Yarde are fit and on form.

while the wingers have been somewhat criticised I thnk Nowell in particular can be quietly pleased with the experience and progress made

Nice to see someone shares my sentiment...i thought he did very well as a young kid in his first big tournament.

I agree the flanks are an issue if we get injuries...and 10. I rate Burns very highly but his form this season has been woeful and Ford looks likely to be the starting 10 for the first test in NZ...  

I suspect the below will start the first test.

9 Care
10 Ford
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi - (Burrell with Saints in final)
14 Nowell
15 Brown

Who do we reckon will be the 3rd fly half? Assuming Farrell is in the final he'll surely have to take 2 for the 1st test. Ford and...Burns, Cips, Slade?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

while the wingers have been somewhat criticised I thnk Nowell in particular can be quietly pleased with the experience and progress made

Nice to see someone shares my sentiment...i thought he did very well as a young kid in his first big tournament.

I agree the flanks are an issue if we get injuries...and 10. I rate Burns very highly but his form this season has been woeful and Ford looks likely to be the starting 10 for the first test in NZ...  

I suspect the below will start the first test.

9 Care
10 Ford
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi - (Burrell with Saints in final)
14 Nowell
15 Brown

Yep, Nowell did a good job, I thought. He made mistakes, but he doesn't seem to let them get to him. needs a bit more confidence, mind. I thought he could have scored against Wales if he'd backed his pace.

Out of him and May, May looks like he has more potential, but so far he's shown less. I would put Yarde in his place.

That back line looks pretty good to me. What a first start for Ford though! Gulp.

Ah thats a difficult one 7 1/2

I would have taken Ford and Burns but Burns has just looked poor all season though i cant vouch for recently? Has he improved any? If he has...then take him. Maybe being in and around the squad can give him some confidence.

Im not convinced on Cips...i know people mature, and maybe he has. Jury is out for me on that lad.

Slade? Has he played enough this season.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who do we reckon will be the 3rd fly half? Assuming Farrell is in the final he'll surely have to take 2 for the 1st test. Ford and...Burns, Cips, Slade?

I'd assume Burns, simply because he's been the guy in and around the EPS all season. I'd be tempted though to go with Cipriani, as the more experienced player (even if it was some time ago) and perhaps the guy with most to prove - England's biggest case of unfulfilled potential for a long time, and almost entirely attributable to the space between his ears. Oh, and his Super 15 experience from a couple of years ago might be helpful in understanding the opposition with limited build-up time.

How many players will go on the tour?

As many players as we want I think. Slade's too inexperienced for me but has played well when given the chance. Burns just looks lost still for me but is around the squad. I'd personally go with Cipriani at present given his form and age. Might be a sink or swim moment but not too many other options are jumping out at me unless there's someone really obvious?

So would you say...35? 40?

Is it just the 3 tests of is there any games in between?

Picking the 3-4 best players in each position - IMO from playes that have experience in the England set up.
So no complete bolters in there.
 
LH = Marler, Vaunipola, Corbisiero, Mullan
Hooker = Hartley, Youngs, Webber, Ward (saxons incumbent)
TH = Cole, Wilson, Thomas, Collier (saxons incumbent), K.Brookes
Lock = Lawes, Attwood, Kruis
Lock = Launchbury, Parling, Kitchener
Flanks = Robshaw, Wood, Tom Johnston, Kvesic, C.Clarke, Haskell
No. 8 = Morgan, Billy V, S.Dickinson (saxons incumbent)
 
9 = Care, B.Youngs, Dickson, Wigglesworth (saxons)
10 = Farrell, G.Ford, F.Burns, H.Slade, Myler, Cipriani,
Wings = May, Nowell, Ashton, Wade, Yarde, Sharples, Rockodunguni, Strettle
12 = B.Twelvetrees, B.Barritt, Eastmond
13 = Burrell, Tuilagi, Joseph, Tompkins, Trinder
15 = Brown, Foden, Goode,
 
That to me is quite a list of some quality players - some are injured or a touch out of form.  But there are others that are challenging for positions and that can only be healthy.  
There are others that I've missed out like - Fraser, L.Wallace, Slater, Gibson, whos the Glouces. 9 that kept Cowan out of the side?  He could come in perhaps.  
Other youngsters like Luke Cowan Dickie, Jamie George, Charlie Matthews could also travel for the experience.  
 
If there is a sarries v saints final I would like to see something like this lining up -
Marler, Webber, Wilson
Launchbury, Attwood
Tom Johnston, Robshaw, Morgan,
Care
G.Ford
May
36
Tuilagi
Yarde
Brown
 
Bench -
Corbisero, T.Youngs, H.Thomas, Kvesic, Parling, B.Youngs, F.Burns, Eastmond

Does anyone know the tour schedule? Is England playing any mid-week fixtures etc or is it just 3 tests?
I thought I read somewhere that the womens team and the U20's might all be travelling at the same time.

Sorry GF - you asked the same question earlier!

Dan Robson is the 9 at Gloucester, great potential but probably a Saxons player at this time

There is a game vs the Crusaders between Test 1 and 2 I think?

My team would be pretty damn similar to PropDavid's, I would also like to see Elliot Daly get some experience with the squad, and I think Cole is out of the tour is he not? So Wilson, Thomas and Brookes/Collier for the tighthead spots

Hi Bam,
Cheers, yes Dan Robson was the one I was thinking of.
Good, so there may be chances for some of the fring players to get a game out there too.
Yes, I dont know what Eliot Daly has to do to get into the side - has there been some incident in training thats put a black mark on his name? Or does he just not fit into the England gameplan?

If Foden and Good are both involved in the Prem then Daly could even provide good cover for Brown at 15.

propdavid_london wrote:Does anyone know the tour schedule?  Is England playing any mid-week fixtures etc or is it just 3 tests?
I thought I read somewhere that the womens team and the U20's might all be travelling at the same time.

 
May 17th - Jeff semis
May 20th - initial squad selection (25-27 players), flying out soon after, probably with U20 squad
May 23rd,24th - Euro finals (presumably any HC and Amlin finalists not available for England)
May 31st - Jeff final, assume remaining squad fly out soon after
June 1st - Eng v Baa-Baas
June 2nd - JWC starts in NZ
June 7th - 1st test
June 14th - 2nd test
June 17th - Eng v Crusaders
June 21st - 3rd test

It also seems likely that there will be a 7th place Euro qualification playoff sometime after May 10th, which may or may not be 2 legged, and may affect availability of players.

Propdavid london

Joel Tomkins - the rugby league convert

Nick Tompkins - the English U20s youngster

Two different players with similar surnames. Both centres. Confusing I suppose because they play for the same club too.

That's a bonkers schedule. Assume a best case scenario that the main squad flies on 25th so that they can take any Euro final players with them. It's likely that around one third of the main squad will feature in the Jeff final and will follow a week later.

Meanwhile, the BaaBaas match becomes something of a consolation prize for anyone who's not in NZ and not in the Jeff. Presumably Rob Baxter or similar will coach it, because Bomber, his team and the U20 coaches will already be on the plane.

The denuded squad has 10 days to train, being joined by the Jeff finalists part way through, and then the tour begins in earnest, with a consolation prize of the Crusaders game for those who don't make the cut for the 2nd and 3rd tests.

Maybe the cunning plan is to raid the U20s squad... anyone in it this year who might be able to step up in one mighty bound? Last year we had Nowell, obviously, and in previous years we've had Ford, Farrell and Tuilagi.

What would you boys cherish more if one of your club teams was in the premiership final and in relation to the AB series?

a) Club title and no test wins
b) Runner up club title and 1 test win

I appreciate it's sport and you guys could win them all. But I'm just trying to gauge the relative importance you guys put on club comps v internationals.

For me, i'd sacrifice club title for a test win, but I'm not a dyed in the wool hardcore club fanatic. I may be wrong, but I reckon if in the same boat as England with the scheduling the NZRU would pull ABs from the domestic club final (actually, they have done this before). I appreciate our players are centrally contracted so the NZRU 'can' do this whereas I gather your clubs own the players.

But just wondering hypothetically, what you guys thought, would you be happy if your star players missed the club final so they were there for test 1?

I don't follow any particular premiership club so as long as any club wins I'd go for the test

But regarding the last part, no way would I be happy for the premiership players to miss the final for an international. Partly because the idea that the weekend of the 31st May is the first weekend in June is stupid. Partly because I value domestic rugby as equal to international rugby. I don't mind players missing some general league games due to international rugby (as long as it doesn't take the urine), but not the finals.

Club everytime, said as a supporter of a team that has never yet threatened the playoffs

Interesting, thanks guys. I'm not saying the fans in NZ would be happy either. I recall there was a minor uproar when ABs got yanked from the domestic final (or semis). Personally, I was ok with it, but they weren't my clubs. It's hard to know what the yanked players thought, played all year to make the playoffs and then not being able to finish it off. But on the flip, they got to represent their country.

ps. Hammer, 31 May is 1 June (in NZ), you guys need to catch up

International everytime for me

so all these eng v NZ games will be on a the same time as the WC!!!!

wtf

mystiroakey wrote:so all these eng v NZ games will be on a the same time as the WC!!!!

wtf

Shouldn't be an issue. It's the junior WC. Plenty of appropriate sized stadiums. It will no doubt be all over the place, with plenty of games in the provinces.

ebop wrote:Interesting, thanks guys. I'm not saying the fans in NZ would be happy either. I recall there was a minor uproar when ABs got yanked from the domestic final (or semis). Personally, I was ok with it, but they weren't my clubs. It's hard to know what the yanked players thought, played all year to make the playoffs and then not being able to finish it off. But on the flip, they got to represent their country.

ps. Hammer, 31 May is 1 June (in NZ), you guys need to catch up

So Saturday 31st May is Saturday 1st June in NZ? Are you sure about that?   

W L Overate, Exeter got close the other year didn't they? Seem to remember a late game against Saints that you lost and ended your chance. So you've threatened, just haven't followed through yet

blackcanelion wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:so all these eng v NZ games will be on a the same time as the WC!!!!

wtf

Shouldn't be an issue. It's the junior WC. Plenty of appropriate sized stadiums. It will no doubt be all over the place, with plenty of games in the provinces.

Lol(feel a bit off an idiot but.....)

I am talking about the actual world cup of football.

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't follow any particular premiership club so as long as any club wins I'd go for the test

But regarding the last part, no way would I be happy for the premiership players to miss the final for an international. Partly because the idea that the weekend of the 31st May is the first weekend in June is stupid. Partly because I value domestic rugby as equal to international rugby. I don't mind players missing some general league games due to international rugby (as long as it doesn't take the urine), but not the finals.

Unfortunately, it's an RFU/club issue (sames goes for France). It goes back over 15 years so it's not surprising. The clubs were always going to push the limit of season, and IRB should have seen it coming and stated the dates emphatically. At the end of the day you'd expect the RFU and clubs to have worked together to have it sorted so it wasn't an issue. Basic business practice really. The NZRFU will no doubt be miffed given they've put a lot of effort into trying ensure that this didn't happen again.

blackcanelion wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't follow any particular premiership club so as long as any club wins I'd go for the test

But regarding the last part, no way would I be happy for the premiership players to miss the final for an international. Partly because the idea that the weekend of the 31st May is the first weekend in June is stupid. Partly because I value domestic rugby as equal to international rugby. I don't mind players missing some general league games due to international rugby (as long as it doesn't take the urine), but not the finals.

Unfortunately, it's an RFU/club issue (sames goes for France). It goes back over 15 years so it's not surprising. The clubs were always going to push the limit of season, and IRB should have seen it coming and stated the dates emphatically. At the end of the day you'd expect the RFU and clubs to have worked together to have it sorted so it wasn't an issue. Basic business practice really. The NZRFU will no doubt be miffed given they've put a lot of effort into trying ensure that this didn't happen again.

It's not an RFU/club issue at all, it's an IRB/international window issue, combined with the expansion of Super Rugby. IRB have dictated that May is in June, NZRFU should have anticipated and adapted. - basic business practice really.

HammerofThunor wrote:

ebop wrote:Interesting, thanks guys. I'm not saying the fans in NZ would be happy either. I recall there was a minor uproar when ABs got yanked from the domestic final (or semis). Personally, I was ok with it, but they weren't my clubs. It's hard to know what the yanked players thought, played all year to make the playoffs and then not being able to finish it off. But on the flip, they got to represent their country.

ps. Hammer, 31 May is 1 June (in NZ), you guys need to catch up

So Saturday 31st May is Saturday 1st June in NZ? Are you sure about that?   

W L Overate, Exeter got close the other year didn't they? Seem to remember a late game against Saints that you lost and ended your chance. So you've threatened, just haven't followed through yet

Yep, Exe had a sniff of the semis 2 seasons ago, but weren't really a threat. Regardless of who qualifies for the playoffs and whether the playoffs are seen as good or evil (I'd prefer a divisional tournament), it'd be a travesty if finalists are weakened after 8 months of effort.