Englands Tour of NZ - The Politics

First topic message reminder :

This thread has become a political thread so we'll make it that.

By the same token, Lancaster has a 50% winning record against the ABs and he will want to maintain that over the 4 games.

I think it will be very tough, but the England side that's emerged from the 6N is much better than the one NZ faced in the Autumn. After the NZ and France games, they've produced 4 strong performances. Home advantage and the schedule insanity count for a lot, but if Bomber can manage his way through that we should be in for an exciting series.

Taylorman wrote:We'll find out about Cane this weekend, hes starting against the Force for the Chiefs.

The thing about this tour is like clockwork the temperature plummets on June 1st and we don't get very good starts.

Last year the French had several players out for the same reason first test and they had their best result of the 3.

One loss from 3 wouldnt be a surprise where 2 or 3 would be based on the relative merits of both sides. But Lancaster's a shrewd character and of any side he's taken more of a leaf out of the AB book than anyone else.

Danny Care's confidence looks good and building around him more than Farrell might go well. He reminds me of Byron Kelleher a little.

I suppose the bottom line is under Hansen England remains his only loss so he wont want to add anymore to that list.

I assume you meant to compliment Care by comparing him to Kelleher but poor Danny!

That is an impressivelu ugly stat poorfour! NZ will want to lower that. The odds are in NZ's favour. We don't have a fortress but several fortresses. We haven't lost a home test since 2009 and the players will want to keep that record alive.

It's a great series and ideal preparation for the 4N. Looking forward to it. This NZ team is good at rising to challenges and judging the way England has developed, they certainly present a challenge. So good to see the NZ team tested and put under pressure. Our young players need as many experiences of that kind.

Let's be frank this NZ side are one of the best of all time, the quality of their finishing is really quite something.

I can see honours even in the scrum and line-out and hopefully the breakdown will be allowed to develop as a good contest. This England side like playing at tempo and the faster the game the better at the moment.

Where we still have a lot of room for improvement is in the finishing of opportunities. Watching some of the recent games we've created quite a lot of chances but taken relatively few. That has to change if we have any aspirations of beating NZ in their back yard.

I don't honestly think it realistic to bet on a series win for us but I'd certainly hope the second or third test we could take. That would give us some nice momentum to go into the home AIs, of which we need to win all four.

It's a measure of how far this team has come that they represent a genuine threat to the best team in the world and can set targets of winning a seriously tough run of games.

One of the other real litmus tests of this side will be how they go against South Africa in the AIs. No team since the Saffers in 2012 has ministered this England pack up front and it's going to be a key test of how good this pack are at the top level.

Yeah SA is huge to England..

A scalp we need badly. The team that worries me the most

Chjw131 wrote:Let's be frank this NZ side are one of the best of all time, the quality of their finishing is really quite something.

I can see honours even in the scrum and line-out and hopefully the breakdown will be allowed to develop as a good contest. This England side like playing at tempo and the faster the game the better at the moment.

Where we still have a lot of room for improvement is in the finishing of opportunities. Watching some of the recent games we've created quite a lot of chances but taken relatively few. That has to change if we have any aspirations of beating NZ in their back yard. I don't honestly think it realistic to bet on a series win for us but I'd certainly hope the second or third test we could take. That would give us some nice momentum to go into the home AIs, of which we need to win all four.

It's a measure of how far this team has come that they represent a genuine threat to the best team in the world and can set targets of winning a seriously tough run of games.

One of the other real litmus tests of this side will be how they go against South Africa in the AIs. No team since the Saffers in 2012 has ministered this England pack up front and it's going to be a key test of how good this pack are at the top level.

Eden park isnt our back yard its our front yard, its up to you guys to come and "take it".

Looking forward to it immensely, As England is playing its best rugby for a decade.

I'd just be happy for us to be competitive (and not because the AB have an off day).

I wonder if Haskell will be going. Since his time out injured he seems to have been playing well. Bit a knob but heavy work rate that matches Woodshaw mould. Especially if Saints and/or Quins are in the final

Chjw131 wrote:


I don't honestly think it realistic to bet on a series win for us but I'd certainly hope the second or third test we could take.

I'd say the 3rd is the least likely of the 3 as the AB's will have worked England out by then, even though the first might have missing players. New players with seemingly nothing to lose can make up for a lot of that where the AB's rely on combinations working and when they havnt played together for 7 months they can be terrible getting going.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Taylorman wrote:We'll find out about Cane this weekend, hes starting against the Force for the Chiefs.

The thing about this tour is like clockwork the temperature plummets on June 1st and we don't get very good starts.

Last year the French had several players out for the same reason first test and they had their best result of the 3.

One loss from 3 wouldnt be a surprise where 2 or 3 would be based on the relative merits of both sides. But Lancaster's a shrewd character and of any side he's taken more of a leaf out of the AB book than anyone else.

Danny Care's confidence looks good and building around him more than Farrell might go well. He reminds me of Byron Kelleher a little.

I suppose the bottom line is under Hansen England remains his only loss so he wont want to add anymore to that list.

I assume you meant to compliment Care by comparing him to Kelleher but poor Danny!

No, just that their styles are similar. At 57 tests at 80% compared to 47(?) so far at 55% I'd say Byron was the better half, unless youre referring to his retirement hobbies?

Was Kelleher that good a scrum half though? That was when that was your area of weakness. Even Cowan has scrum half caps for NZ...

Chjw131 wrote:Let's be frank this NZ side are one of the best of all time, the quality of their finishing is really quite something.

Crikey I think that's a bit over the top. Its a good side but not a great side, and I'm confident it's not one of the best ever.

Not sure how many of them would make a top 3 or even 5 ABs of all time list. McCaw yes at his peak but probably not anymore. Read probably and may be at a stretch C Smith but the rest of them are just good All Blacks.

I reckon England should go into the first test confident of having a chance against a rusty first up team. The Irish showed everyone a couple of years ago how to challenge the ABs at home in a second test but then showed how you can't drop your standard for the third test.

Probably add Carter to that list? On form Dagg would make top 5 too

Personally I now regard Carter as damaged goods, Dagg has done nothing for a year (in All Black terms), but the try scoring ability of players like Julian Savea Would make him at least equal to most wingers in International rugby.

But they would as players make the top 5 at least on their positions for the all blacks?

Taylorman wrote:Last year the French had several players out for the same reason first test

It was the same outcome but not for the same reason. The Top 14 final was on June 1st last year, which was the first weekend in June in anyone's book. That's one reason Gatland was concerned about the availability of France-based players for the Lions. The Rabo and Aviva finished on the last Saturday in May, just as they do this year.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Let's be frank this NZ side are one of the best of all time, the quality of their finishing is really quite something.

I can see honours even in the scrum and line-out and hopefully the breakdown will be allowed to develop as a good contest. This England side like playing at tempo and the faster the game the better at the moment.

Where we still have a lot of room for improvement is in the finishing of opportunities. Watching some of the recent games we've created quite a lot of chances but taken relatively few. That has to change if we have any aspirations of beating NZ in their back yard. I don't honestly think it realistic to bet on a series win for us but I'd certainly hope the second or third test we could take. That would give us some nice momentum to go into the home AIs, of which we need to win all four.

It's a measure of how far this team has come that they represent a genuine threat to the best team in the world and can set targets of winning a seriously tough run of games.

One of the other real litmus tests of this side will be how they go against South Africa in the AIs. No team since the Saffers in 2012 has ministered this England pack up front and it's going to be a key test of how good this pack are at the top level.

 Eden park isnt our back yard its our front yard, its up to you guys to come and "take it".

Looking forward to it immensely, As England is playing its best rugby for a decade.

You best be painting that picket fence White and not Black then!

nganboy wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Let's be frank this NZ side are one of the best of all time, the quality of their finishing is really quite something.

Crikey I think that's a bit over the top. Its a good side but not a great side, and I'm confident it's not one of the best ever.

Not sure how many of them would make a top 3 or even 5 ABs of all time list. McCaw yes at his peak but probably not anymore. Read probably and may be at a stretch C Smith but the rest of them are just good All Blacks.

I reckon England should go into the first test confident of having a chance against a rusty first up team. The Irish showed everyone a couple of years ago how to challenge the ABs at home in a second test but then showed how you can't drop your standard for the third test.

It's pretty subjective I agree but in terms of having one of the best records they must be right up there. Further, if you can pick candidates like McCaw, Carter, Read, C Smith, Dagg etc.. from one single team as genuine contenders for a best of all time then I would say that's a pretty special team.

Taylorman wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:


I don't honestly think it realistic to bet on a series win for us but I'd certainly hope the second or third test we could take.

I'd say the 3rd is the least likely of the 3 as the AB's will have worked England out by then, even though the first might have missing players. New players with seemingly nothing to lose can make up for a lot of that where the AB's rely on combinations working and when they havnt played together for 7 months they can be terrible getting going.

I can't say there's really a huge amount to work out about this England side. It relies on massive pressure and line-speed in defence and a combination of forward runners in attack with two staggered lines.

Yes they've improved from the AIs but the tactics are essentially the same. It really depends on the intensity and how close the second Test is as to the outcome of the third as far as i'm concerned.

Purely in terms of results, the current ABs have lost only one game since before the last RWC. It's not as if those results have been against weakened teams - Australia are below par, maybe, and the Boks and England have had transitional periods, but Ireland are probably the best they've ever been, Wales are as good as they've been at any time since the 70's and England are edging towards rivalling their best ever team.

Those results alone suggest that the reigning world champions are a great side.

I think a lot of us England fans are getting a little too over excited after the BBC/Sky hype and a very impressive score against Italy.

Yes we've improved well across the 6N's and finished strongly against Italy but that took 5 matches to get there, we were all pretty unhappy about a few selections and decisions on the field.

The same happened in the AI's that after a few games the team looked a lot stronger as they'd had a chance to gel and although we lost the final game it was our best performance.

Now the players will disperse across 10 clubs and all be focusing on different objectives, they'll play some tough rugby and for some of them they'll miss the first Test. For the remainder they'll have to start the same process over again, getting to know each other and the coaches, getting used to playing for the first ever time in NZ and getting used to Test match rugby.

NZ to contrast will be at home, their players play together across 5 teams and although they may have a couple of new players the majority will be experienced old hands. Oh and to top that off they're also comfortably the best team in the world at the moment, especially as they showed against SA last year when they play teams that like to play an open game and give them some space.

To me being realistic here and trying to not be too OTT I have the following goals

Squad Goals -

- Give Farrell's replacement at least one full 80 min's of rugby and another 60 odd mins across the other two Tests.
- Try out Webber as a bench option in at least one game
- Start Attwood, Mako, Manu, Yarde and Ben Youngs across the three games to see where they're at
- Find better cover for Woodshaw then Johnson and give them a lot of time (120 mins of rugby if possibe), preferably a 6 and a 7
- Try to keep peripheral players hungry with some bench spots and/or midweek game time eg Daily, Eastmond, Watson, Clark, Thomas, Slater, Dickinson

Tactical Goals
- Aim for 3 tries per game
- Concede zero tries per game
- Half backs and centre's to be aware of opportunities in the red zone and complete more opportunities when we have over laps of space to attack
- Bring our wings into the game more or give them more space out wide
- BE COMPETITIVE

From super rugby evidence it might be assumed NZ teams will be weak at lineout, scrum and struggle to control the current breakdown free-for-all ; and rely on counter attacking genius to pull off a win.

Fickle thing, super rugby though.

yappysnap wrote:I think a lot of us England fans are getting a little too over excited after the BBC/Sky hype and a very impressive score against Italy.

Yes we've improved well across the 6N's and finished strongly against Italy but that took 5 matches to get there, we were all pretty unhappy about a few selections and decisions on the field.

The same happened in the AI's that after a few games the team looked a lot stronger as they'd had a chance to gel and although we lost the final game it was our best performance.

Now the players will disperse across 10 clubs and all be focusing on different objectives, they'll play some tough rugby and for some of them they'll miss the first Test. For the remainder they'll have to start the same process over again, getting to know each other and the coaches, getting used to playing for the first ever time in NZ and getting used to Test match rugby.

NZ to contrast will be at home, their players play together across 5 teams and although they may have a couple of new players the majority will be experienced old hands. Oh and to top that off they're also comfortably the best team in the world at the moment, especially as they showed against SA last year when they play teams that like to play an open game and give them some space.

To me being realistic here and trying to not be too OTT I have the following goals

Squad Goals -

- Give Farrell's replacement at least one full 80 min's of rugby and another 60 odd mins across the other two Tests.
- Try out Webber as a bench option in at least one game
- Start Attwood, Mako, Manu, Yarde and Ben Youngs across the three games to see where they're at
- Find better cover for Woodshaw then Johnson and give them a lot of time (120 mins of rugby if possibe), preferably a 6 and a 7
- Try to keep peripheral players hungry with some bench spots and/or midweek game time eg Daily, Eastmond, Watson, Clark, Thomas, Slater, Dickinson

Tactical Goals
- Aim for 3 tries per game
- Concede zero tries per game
- Half backs and centre's to be aware of opportunities in the red zone and complete more opportunities when we have over laps of space to attack
- Bring our wings into the game more or give them more space out wide
- BE COMPETITIVE

I have to say I agree with the vast majority of that. I would say that the score against Italy revealed to me more than just a good performance, akin to those of the Johnson era ('10 6N for example).

For England to go out to Rome knowing they needed to score 50 points and go about it with such zeal was really rewarding to see. It was all the more notable given it was on the back of two very good performances against tough opposition.

We are creating a lot of opportunities and that of itself is absolutely key. The finishing has been poor on the whole but that takes time and experience. At the end of the AIs I thought the pack was looking strong but the back-line all at sea. Since the progression of this 6N we've seen that really move forward leaps and bounds.

It's no wonder we've got better as both the AIs and 6N progressed, as it is exactly that a team which is, and needs to, progress.

Now the test is going to be whether we can consolidate those performances and start to improve bit by bit each game. That, as Lancs has already stated, requires a settled team.

Whilst I would go with exactly your squad and tactics goals I don't see that happening. The players for all the Tests will be first choice wherever available. Then next in line. We won't see a rival Woodshaw unit tried in any Test. The Canterbury game will be a different story. For that game i'd like to see the likes of Webber and Slater get starts. Backrow-wise i'd like to see 6. J Haskell 7. L Wallace 8. D Ewers - that's a fairly complimentary unit I think.

'Bring our wings into the game more or give them more space out wide'

Can't see this happening with Farrell's defense led attack bias. Its a strategy which the AB's will soon work out and run round.

The ABs will be rubbing their hands together right now, seems like Brown is the 2nd coming - even Hansen is telling them he thinks so.

England have capitalized on the post Lions hangover that Tom Youngs has underlined a s a cause for the injuries at Leicester and dip in performance until today that is.

Currently they are riding a one man wave, their 6 Nations record remains the same for another year and Player of the series or not, Noel Brown won't be able to win the series alone even if Dagg is now a mere pretender.

up early for a rant scratchy?

yeah maybe though... whatever- but what does it matter.... I like our team . I think we are going places.. 3 loses or not away in a game that heavily favours home nations to one of the best teams ever in any sport ever isn't really the end of the world.. BUt we expect, we believe. And its not all about Brown, but he did deserve his award.

It's a said that NZ will win the series 3 - 0. Only betting is how many tries England will score, under 5 is my bet, well under 5.

mystiroakey wrote:up early for a rant scratchy?

yeah maybe though... whatever- but what does it matter.... I like our team . I think we are going places.. 3 loses or not away in a game that heavily favours home nations to one of the best teams ever in any sport ever isn't really the end of the world.. BUt we expect, we believe. And its not all about Brown, but he did deserve his award.

  He's like a bad smell, always lingering. I expect us to get beaten 3-0 overall but if Eng can get to or within the goals that yappy suggested, the tour wont be another one of those 'oh well we got suffed, nevermind'.

mystiroakey wrote:up early for a rant scratchy?

yeah maybe though... whatever- but what does it matter.... I like our team . I think we are going places.. 3 loses or not away in a game that heavily favours home nations to one of the best teams ever in any sport ever isn't really the end of the world.. BUt we expect, we believe. And its not all about Brown, but he did deserve his award.

great post oaken   

Breadvan wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:up early for a rant scratchy?

yeah maybe though... whatever- but what does it matter.... I like our team . I think we are going places.. 3 loses or not away in a game that heavily favours home nations to one of the best teams ever in any sport ever isn't really the end of the world.. BUt we expect, we believe. And its not all about Brown, but he did deserve his award.

  He's like a bad smell, always lingering. I expect us to get beaten 3-0 overall but if Eng can get to or within the goals that yappy suggested, the tour wont be another one of those 'oh well we got suffed, nevermind'.

Thing about a bad smell is, you need a dog to blame it on.

Right now Brown smells of English roses          but methinks that he is driving the chariot solo and his tyres might get punctured by a kiwi thorn or 3

rainbow-warrior wrote:It's a said that NZ will win the series 3 - 0.  Only betting is how many tries England will score, under 5 is my bet, well under 5.

Red and yellow and pink and green...purple and orange and blue.
I can see a rainbow, see a rainbow, see a rainbow too
Listen with your eyes, listen with your ears...say everything you see.
I can see a rainbow, see a rainbow, see a rainbow too

Don't tease us anymore Rainbow…1 or 2 or 3 or 4?!

Scratch wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:It's a said that NZ will win the series 3 - 0.  Only betting is how many tries England will score, under 5 is my bet, well under 5.

Red and yellow and pink and green...purple and orange and blue.
I can see a rainbow, see a rainbow, see a rainbow too
Listen with your eyes, listen with your ears...say everything you see.
I can see a rainbow, see a rainbow, see a rainbow too

Don't tease us anymore Rainbow…1 or 2 or 3 or 4?!

Well in 2004, the world cup winning chumps came down got whitewashed and scored 0 tries and that was in NZ and Australia.

Have to ask the TAB for odds first  

rainbow-warrior wrote:

Scratch wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:It's a said that NZ will win the series 3 - 0.  Only betting is how many tries England will score, under 5 is my bet, well under 5.

Red and yellow and pink and green...purple and orange and blue.
I can see a rainbow, see a rainbow, see a rainbow too
Listen with your eyes, listen with your ears...say everything you see.
I can see a rainbow, see a rainbow, see a rainbow too

Don't tease us anymore Rainbow…1 or 2 or 3 or 4?!

Well in 2004, the world cup winning chumps came down got whitewashed and scored 0 tries and that was in NZ and Australia.  

Have to ask the TAB for odds first  

Yes but his side is much much better than the 2004 side, they have just won a Triple Crown and also count Player of the Series amongst their number. They seem unstoppable   , even Hansen is trying to get his excuses in early. It doesn't bode well for the All Blacks.

And to date bomber has consistently failed to nail the wing positions. Multiple guess;

Eastmond, little game time in position, however prodigious abundant talent.
May, singularly failed to convince he is anything other than a flat track bully - a season in league might teach him how to run strait and dot the ball down.
Wade, best thing since JSD, bombed by Stewie when showing exemplary form, succumbed to injury, very unlikely to by fit for NZ tour.
Yarde, currently scratching round for form in a trying Irish team.
Sharples, genuine article, lacking Bombers confidence.
Ashton, failed to learn Union requirements, weak tackle, ruck, defence.
Watson, still learning plenty of potential
Abendanon, showing great form, not long term solution
Foden, not yet hit form and should only be considered as injury cover.
Benjamin, too often injured, not shown enough.
Thompstone, big unit lacks pace.
Rokoduguni, is he registered?
Smith(Sam) maybe......
Nowell, the experience will have done him good, however did not do enough to own the shirt.

Kingelderfield's wings on form;

Watson, Eastmond.
.

Is Eastmond back playing on the wing?

I'd be very disappointed if we didn't put up some decent showings and at least push NZ very hard. Our pack looks set now, even the backs are starting to look very good. Only question marks remain over the wings and replacements. Who's going to put their hands up and nail a place? I think Lancaster wants to give a run on the right wing to Wade so even if Nowell continues his improvment he's under threat. I think it's about 50 50 with May and Yarde although May covering from the bench offers alot; again he's going to be challenged strongly by Foden though.

Why is there a weird song about a rainbow on here? Together with some wummery, misinformed statements and bitterness, but the primary school rainbow song is definitely more confusing in context

This is a decent thread...resist your stupid wums. Or ill be raising them to the Mods.

Go WUM elsewhere.

Ok, sorry GF

Kingelderfield I agree that Lancaster has failed in regards to the wingers. I would say that's not been entirely down to the wingers. If you don't give wingers enough space and ball they will struggle. Something that had been apparent before this 6 nations.

It's just odd that in the 6 nations with the wingers getting more ball and opportunities than any time in Lancaster's tenure he picks one winger who would prefer to drift across the field than run in a straight line whereas the other scored his first try of the entire season vs Italy.

It's not surprising England have had a bit of difficulty finishing when they their two wingers have struggled in that department.

Sharples - the genuine article as you call him has 3 tries in 15 AP matches. Hardly prolific.

Most wingers have scored more than him.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Ok, sorry GF

Wasnt reffering to you CJ...  

Beshocked...who would you like to see start the first test (with out the finalists)...then the remaining two tests with the full squad available?

Geordiefalcon well mostly it depends on form etc plus who is fit.

Probably go for.

1.Marler
2.Webber/T.Youngs
3.Wilson
4.Launchbury
5.Attwood/a Tigers 2nd row
6.Johnson (who else is there?)
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

9.Care
10.Ford
11.Rokodiguini
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.Watson
15.Brown



It's important that if T.Youngs starts he has a Tiger comfort blanket in the 2nd row to help him at the lineout.

Wingers is really tough and has to be based upon form. Perhaps the two bath wingers - Rokodiguini and Watson?

Perhaps a recall for Ashton if he shows good club form for the 2nd and third test. Wing is a real area of weakness in my opinion.

Well your pack is pretty much as i would expect.

Your choice of winger is interesting. Watson and Rokodiguini.

We can really make cases for quite a number of wingers.

I think i'd like to keep Nowell in there...with Wade or Yarde on the other flank depending on how fit they are? Give them a half each ...with the view to maybe starting both in the 2nd test if they prove their fitness.

Doesn't sound like Wade will be fit as he had a 2nd op a few weeks ago.

I've heard from Wasps fans that he hopes to be back before the end of the season

Fair enough. Just heard it said in the commentary from Friday. Didn't sound promising as if it was a setback. Hope he is back, love watching him and he offers something massively different from anyone else we have.

Which other realistic options are there for wing?

Ashton - i assume playing well and scoring tries.
Wade
Sharples
Johnny May scored against us, but didnt really impress me in the 6n
Nowell
Watson
Benjamin
Yarde
Strettle
Banahan

Any others?

If Wade is touch and go I'd prefer a proper break for him and be fresh for next season.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Which other realistic options are there for wing?

Ashton - i assume playing well and scoring tries.
Wade
Sharples
Johnny May scored against us, but didnt really impress me in the 6n
Nowell
Watson
Benjamin
Yarde
Strettle
Banahan

Any others?

Rokaduguni

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well your pack is pretty much as i would expect.

Your choice of winger is interesting. Watson and Rokodiguini.

We can really make cases for quite a number of wingers.

I think i'd like to keep Nowell in there...with Wade or Yarde on the other flank depending on how fit they are? Give them a half each ...with the view to maybe starting both in the 2nd test if they prove their fitness.

I agree I think i'd stick with Nowell out there for the moment as he's Lancaster's ideal winger ie: a fullback.

Yarde has looked frustrated with his injury and hasn't yet made much of an impact. I expect that will change over the next few games and if he gets back to the form he had i'd like to see him start at 11.

Watson would be my bench option. I think he's looked sharp recently and also is a FB by trade. Good aeriel skills and kicking is going to be important in NZ.

Rokoduguni offers something a bit different, he's very physical and difficult to put down. I'm not sure about his kicking game though and whilst he's scored plenty for Bath his recent form hasn't been so good.