Halfpenny versus Brown

First topic message reminder :

One of the key clashes for me will be how Leigh halfpenny stands up to England's player of the tournament so far.

With both defenses so tight the aerial skills of both will come into question as will be their ability to make space on the counter.

Key decisions such as when to join the line of attack and when to hold a deep position to guard against a turn over, and reading of the opponents kicking game will be vital.

Halfpenny shone in the lions tour last year but has been a little off the pace so far this time. Can he lift his game for England's new super weapon?

Brown is in the better form curently.

Halfpenny, when on form, is the better player imo.

The problem with comparing them is that you have to take the gameplan and whats required of them into consideration. Halfpenny is clearly not given license to roam and wales generally dont play with a sweeper in behind the rush defence leaving more room for error in Halfpennys positioning cause hes coering 2/3s of the backfield most of the time. His instruction then is generally to return the kick with interest for wales to apply pressure on the kick return. His consistency in performance and judgement make him the player he is, his goalkicking is a huge bonus and makes him pretty invaluble.

Brown is excellent under the high ball and his kick return is unique in that he generally will beat the first defender everytime and let his forwards back into the game. He is geneally more dangerous in tight areas and his attacking lines have been great so far this 6n (a lot to do with his understanding with Care imo).

Both players have areas they need to work on, neither are out and out try scorers.

It is half term I suppose....

I thought last week was half term?

ChequeredJersey wrote:I thought last week was half term?

Depends where you are. Half term where I am this week

Does that mean London will still be full of kids visiting?

fa0019 wrote:As a winger Halfpenny's record is not great and they never have been

Like I said beggar belief

1. If you play for NZ or SA then there is a damn good chance that during your career you will have try scoring opportunities, its about converting the number of opportunities. If you assessed the total number of opportunities that the likes of Habana have had compared to say the likes of Williams, Visser, or even Halfpenny then that would be a fairer statement of performance.

2. From debuting 4 TRIES IN 5 GAMES....... then a serious thigh injury

ps just because you don't remember a person in a consistently worse team (lets say Wales v SA) doesn't mean that the player is worse

I think we are done here

flyhalffactory, it's very difficult to prove your case as you're speculating (we all are).

I tell you what though, you're a lot more passionate about Wales than you are about Scotland

I think what beggars belief factory is that you seem to believe that people are describing brown as a brilliant attacking winger when they specifically way he's not a winger and not a good try scorer.
That and that you still cling to evidence that 5 years ago halfpenny had a short good run of games as a try scoring winge against weak opposition is somehow relevant to his abilities no as an attacking fullback.
It may well be the injury that scuppers him, but it still happened.

You're desperately clinging to this point ( despite being done here) after being proven wrong with facts, statistics, anecdotes and most importantly opinions and refusing to actually read what people are saying which is quite reasonable and balanced.

I will cede to you tht the " never was" is perhaps unfair, briefly did well and never got a chance to provide what could've been.
But there's endless players we can at that for ... Pre injury strettle for example.

What halfpenny is now is a proper balanced fullback. Whether it not he could've been a great winger is pretty irrelevant.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:What halfpenny is now is a proper balanced fullback. Whether it not he could've been a great winger is pretty irrelevant.

I also think after this 6nations you can slap a similar label on Mike Brown if he keeps playing the way he is.

Out of the back 6 of both sides, currently I'd pick them as such
11. North
14. Halfpenny
15. Brown

Isn't it likely that of those 3 only Brown will be playing (at least we hope, with Lancaster it's not a given...) in that position?

Comfort wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:What halfpenny is now is a proper balanced fullback. Whether it not he could've been a great winger is pretty irrelevant.

I also think after this 6nations you can slap a similar label on Mike Brown if he keeps playing the way he is.

Out of the back 6 of both sides, currently I'd pick them as such
11. North
14. Halfpenny
15. Brown

Fair comment not just because you agree with me   
Not Cuthbert over North (found out at this level etc)? Its odd because whilst the general perception is that North is the superior player it seems to be Cuthbert who keeps scoring. Is it a tackling thing?

Cuthbert is a finisher, North is a creator more than a finisher.

I'd say Cuthberts the out and out try scorer in the welsh team (if there's one player I want to get his hands on the ball in the oppos 22 it's him) and Norths generally good at everything (bar perhaps kicking). I think thats why those 2 and halfpenny (when on form with his positonal play and kicking game) make a really strong back 3.

How long do you guys think it'll be before we seen Yarde or Wade back in the England side? Im not really up to date on their injuries.....

Yarde is just about back, so could be this 6N though probs not until NZ. Wade, not until NZ if then

Fair enough just for me neither Halfpenny nor Brown is an out and out try scorer so Id like to see the strike winger in their over the creator.

Yarde and Wade will be interesting ...i dont see either displacing May instantly as hes playing well and offers an option cover for 13. Its Nowells spot theyd be competing for ...but hes fulfilling a very different role ...more a halfpenny second fullback. Tackling and dealing with high balls is his thing, running the ball is down to the other two. Yarde and Wade wouldnt be the ideal candidates to take on those duties

Nowell is a sort of quicker but not otherwise as good Brown. Lots of rubbish currently but some real potential (and nice spikey attitude). Seems to make a ton of tackles for a winger

mystiroakey wrote:May is class- luving him.

I said the same thing about brown a year or so ago, now everyone is witnessing and admitting  his ubber skillz//

May is the next one to rise.

May? the guy who just failed to protect the pill as he crossed the whitewash……yep, he's class.

Scratch wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:May is class- luving him.

I said the same thing about brown a year or so ago, now everyone is witnessing and admitting  his ubber skillz//

May is the next one to rise.

May? the guy who just failed to protect the pill as he crossed the whitewash……yep, he's class.

No credit to Murray for dislodging the ball then. May will come good. I just hope its sooner rather than later.

and lets not forget POM almost took his head off with the high one-armed tackled after May stepped inside. have no idea how that wasnt a straightforward penalty try.

lostinwales wrote:Nowell is a sort of quicker but not otherwise as good Brown. Lots of rubbish currently but some real potential (and nice spikey attitude). Seems to make a ton of tackles for a winger

Nowell needs to drop the Campo hitch kick which he employs every time he gets the ball.

flyhalffactory wrote:

fa0019 wrote:As a winger Halfpenny's record is not great and they never have been

Like I said beggar belief

1. If you play for NZ or SA then there is a damn good chance that during your career you will have try scoring opportunities, its about converting the number of opportunities. If you assessed the total number of opportunities that the likes of Habana have had compared to say the likes of Williams, Visser, or even Halfpenny then that would be a fairer statement of performance.

2. From debuting 4 TRIES IN 5 GAMES....... then a serious thigh injury

ps just because you don't remember a person in a consistently worse team (lets say Wales v SA) doesn't mean that the player is worse

I think we are done here

First off dude, I argued that North's record was standout not the reverse.

How many tries has Halfpenny scored in his last 25 games? The answer is 1.

Could his lack of tries be because they don't utilise their FB?

Ok well since he's moved to FB he has scored 4 tries in 32 matches. The man he replaced, Lee Bryne under Gatland (2008 onwards) scored 8 tries in his 32 matches (a coincidence that the number of matches is the same). The coach is the same, the tactics are the same but Bryne rate of 0.25 tries per game is double that of Halfpenny's.

Wouldn't that suggest his prowess for the try line is less than "world class".. especially given his time at wing never blew your socks off.... well unless you count his career high double vs. Canada.

1 try in 25 games is not world class bar say a tighthead prop.

lostinwales wrote:

Scratch wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:May is class- luving him.

I said the same thing about brown a year or so ago, now everyone is witnessing and admitting  his ubber skillz//

May is the next one to rise.

May? the guy who just failed to protect the pill as he crossed the whitewash……yep, he's class.

No credit to Murray for dislodging the ball then. May will come good. I just hope its sooner rather than later.

May is doing great in terms of running around and gaining ground past defenders. Its nowell whos the issue in the England back 3, he wasnt even required for tackling in the last game. They might as well have played with 14 men

nowell is fine. we dont have any alternatives and he's doing fine.

problem on saturday was some bad decisions at 10 and 12 in terms of distribution/overlaps.

some people think the sun shines from 1/2P's proverbial, and no matter how poor his current form (lack of tries, bad interceptions) they will always highlight some short period of play where his form was better as proof for him being a better player. I hope gatland keeps picking him. As Ireland showed, if you dominate the breakdown and possession battles without conceding penalties or knocking on, Wales are not really a threat.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Scratch wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:May is class- luving him.

I said the same thing about brown a year or so ago, now everyone is witnessing and admitting  his ubber skillz//

May is the next one to rise.

May? the guy who just failed to protect the pill as he crossed the whitewash……yep, he's class.

No credit to Murray for dislodging the ball then. May will come good. I just hope its sooner rather than later.

May is doing great in terms of running around and gaining ground past defenders. Its nowell whos the issue in the England back 3, he wasnt even required for tackling in the last game. They might as well have played with 14 men

PSW - bit harsh, he did brilliantly with cleaning up the awful pass from Morgan off the base of the scrum in the lead up to our try

OK exaggerated for effect, but he was largely anonymous if you compare to the amount of work Brown and May have put in the last two games.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:OK exaggerated for effect, but he was largely anonymous if you compare to the amount of work Brown and May have put in the last two games.

Nowell will be the one to give way when Yarde comes back into contention. But I think he has shown enough to definitely be in the mix in future years

totally agree with that lost. he has shown that he is not overawed, that he is a great tackler, and that attacking-wise he is very willing to have a go. I can only see him getting better.

fa0019 wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

fa0019 wrote:As a winger Halfpenny's record is not great and they never have been

Like I said beggar belief

1. If you play for NZ or SA then there is a damn good chance that during your career you will have try scoring opportunities, its about converting the number of opportunities. If you assessed the total number of opportunities that the likes of Habana have had compared to say the likes of Williams, Visser, or even Halfpenny then that would be a fairer statement of performance.

2. From debuting 4 TRIES IN 5 GAMES....... then a serious thigh injury

ps just because you don't remember a person in a consistently worse team (lets say Wales v SA) doesn't mean that the player is worse

I think we are done here

First off dude, I argued that North's record was standout not the reverse.

How many tries has Halfpenny scored in his last 25 games? The answer is 1.

Could his lack of tries be because they don't utilise their FB?

Ok well since he's moved to FB he has scored 4 tries in 32 matches. The man he replaced, Lee Bryne under Gatland (2008 onwards) scored 8 tries in his 32 matches (a coincidence that the number of matches is the same). The coach is the same, the tactics are the same but Bryne rate of 0.25 tries per game is double that of Halfpenny's.

Wouldn't that suggest his prowess for the try line is less than "world class".. especially given his time at wing never blew your socks off.... well unless you count his career high double vs. Canada.

1 try in 25 games is not world class bar say a tighthead prop.

I have never mentioned North
Are you seriously suggesting that the same number of matches and the amount of tries is the indicator of performance?.
Are you seriously suggesting that the same number of matches and the amount of tries is the indicator of coaching system or tactics?.

Lets just look at two games (and two back lines) when Byrne and Halfpenny were starring in the 15 jersey.

Leigh Byrne Scores Try
Australia tour - Millennium Stadium, 29 November 2008, 14:30 local, 14:30 GMT
Wales (15) 21 - 18 (10) Australia (FT)
15 FB Lee Byrne
14 W Mark Jones
13 C Tom Shanklin
12 C Jamie Roberts
11 W Shane Williams
10 FH Stephen Jones

IRB Rugby World Cup - Auckland, 15 October 2011, 21:00 local, 08:00 GMT
France (6) 9 - 8 (3) Wales (FT)
15 FB Leigh Halfpenny
14 W George North
13 C Jonathan Davies
12 C Jamie Roberts
11 W Shane Williams
10 FH James Hook

Its clear that the type of players that Byrne played with "Defensive, Structured, Organised" backs (Jones, Shankin, Jones), as opposed to Halfpenny's trio of "Direct, Innovative, Risk Based Opportunists" (North, Davies, Hook) meant that Byrne probably was instructed to be offensive and attack minded but Halfpenny was instructed to be defensively covering Hook and Davies forward runs.

So no you cannot compare the two players because the tactics whilst remaining largely the same as a collective unit, and changed for a few positions and one of these is clearly Wales now have a defensive FB who probably could cause riots if he was given the same licence to thrill that his predecessor had.

In essence it doesn't suggest anything you are alluding to

Wouldnt this be a better game to look at?

http://www.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/match/25785.html

Byrne presumably would have had to do all the defending for the two "world class" try scoring wingers

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Wouldnt this be a better game to look at?

http://www.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/match/25785.html

Byrne presumably would have had to do all the defending for the two "world class" try scoring wingers

That about sums you up

flyhalffactory wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Wouldnt this be a better game to look at?

http://www.espn.co.uk/statsguru/rugby/match/25785.html

Byrne presumably would have had to do all the defending for the two "world class" try scoring wingers

That about sums you up

I would never claim to be a world class try scoring winger. Just the sort of person who finds it equally as easy to cherry pick an example to support an argument.

EnglishReign wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:
That Jonny May is also a car crash waiting to happen. The only time I have seen such a headless chicken running around in circles / across the field / backwards,  is watching the under 8s at our club. The boy is clueless has he ever been coached?

Well 24 tries in 50 club apps isn't too clueless and I suspect goes some way into explaining his inclusion.

Still made 80 metres and beat 6 defenders on Saturday - not bad when you're mostly running sideways.

70 of those metres were going sideways and the only people he beat stopped to wonder where the frak he was going and why he was doing a Forest Gump impression. I really don't know who compiles these stats but they really are cows nuts.

Anyway good luck to the lad but he needs to run straighter or he will start costing England dangerous turnovers and lots of penalties

"70 of those metres were going sideways and the only people he beat stopped to wonder where the frak he was going and why he was doing a Forest Gump impression"


heheh forest gump lol.


no look seriously May is class. but that still cracked me up

Taylorman wrote:Brown is the better fullback. Why? Because the primary role of a fullback in the modern game is to attack. Simple as that. Defending, high balls, goalkicking...all nice to haves, But if you aint a successful attacking fullback, then you are lacking in the modern game.

HAHAHAHAHA  

Brown is better under the highball anyway so it's a moot point

dragonbreath wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Brown is the better fullback. Why? Because the primary role of a fullback in the modern game is to attack. Simple as that. Defending, high balls, goalkicking...all nice to haves, But if you aint a successful attacking fullback, then you are lacking in the modern game.

HAHAHAHAHA  

in which case with 23 caps over 7 years and only 2 tries i would suggest Brown is an unsuccessful attacking fullback.

7 years is incredibly misleading to use as a stat. That's 2 caps prior to 2 years ago. One he was incredibly ill. Both were on suicide tours. He is a much improved player from then. Most of his caps have been off the bench and/or out of position and he was a willing but limited winger. In an England side that didn't score many tries at all, fewer in the backs, and the wings didnt get any ball, something that can be backed up by looking at the stats. Now he has 2 tries in the last 3 games and 3 MotM performances and a MotS in the last 6 games. His scoring rate at FB in the HEC and AP is very good for a FB and hopefully he can carry that into England now he is in position and a fixture. Judge him on where he is now, not in the past

well look 1/2 is and has been about for what seems like yonks

Brown is at the start..(even though he is older)

All I know as an England fan is if brown has the ball and a tiny bit of space- he is gaining you yards.

he turns territory over like no other England player I have seen in my life time

Watch the Ireland game to see how much forward work alla Bod Brown does as well... Hits rucks and turns over ball but still in position when it matters...


(I have a huge man crush)

Scratch wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Brown is the better fullback. Why? Because the primary role of a fullback in the modern game is to attack. Simple as that. Defending, high balls, goalkicking...all nice to haves, But if you aint a successful attacking fullback, then you are lacking in the modern game.

HAHAHAHAHA  

in which case with 23 caps over 7 years and only 2 tries i would suggest Brown is an unsuccessful attacking fullback.

Here's a ranking for full backs based on tries scored per game (since the last world cup)
1. Folau
2. Kirchner
3. Dagg
4. Brown
5. Kearney
6. Dulin
7. Halfpenny

Hope that helps.......

blackcanelion wrote:

Scratch wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Brown is the better fullback. Why? Because the primary role of a fullback in the modern game is to attack. Simple as that. Defending, high balls, goalkicking...all nice to haves, But if you aint a successful attacking fullback, then you are lacking in the modern game.

HAHAHAHAHA  

in which case with 23 caps over 7 years and only 2 tries i would suggest Brown is an unsuccessful attacking fullback.

Here's a ranking for full backs based on tries scored per game (since the last world cup)
1. Folau
2. Kirchner
3. Dagg
4. Brown
5. Kearney
6. Dulin
7. Halfpenny

Hope that helps.......

I don't see where I listed try scoring as a measure of that success. Try listing the number of tries scored where a fullback was involved in the attack...

Can any one get a yards gained table please?

coaches mould a game plan around the players they have available.

wales have 1/2P who they wrap in cotton wool and have kick pens from the 1/2Way line, especially if scrum dominance can capture penalties.

england have Brown so that gives us an attacking threat returning kicks that we have never had before, so keeping lineout strong would be an obvious complement - teams who dont want to kick in-field to Brown wont love kicking for touch if the english lineout is impenetrable.

SH teams have awesome attacking threats in their FBs (maybe excluding SA for now) so they want quick ball and lots of options as the ball moves wide of 10.

horses for courses.

Le Roux is an attacking threat at FB...

mystiroakey wrote:Can any one get a yards gained table please?

yards gained is unfortunately deceptive for 2 main reasons. Overkicked in-field kicks allow lots of easy quick yards to the catcher, and secondly, different coaches give their players different instructions once they catch a kick. 1/2P prob returns a kick with a kick 80+% of the time (my guess).

yards gained is much more useful in my opinion when comparing the back row 6, 7 and 8 for gain-line penetration.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Le Roux is an attacking threat at FB...

furry muff.

quinsforever wrote:coaches mould a game plan around the players they have available.

wales have 1/2P who they wrap in cotton wool and have kick pens from the 1/2Way line,

Sorry quins, but that is just silly, not horses for courses, or at least not a horse on any course that I'd wanna bet on. Put it this way, on any training ground at any rugby field across NZ if the coach said the Fullback was not to be involved in any attacking play for fear of getting injured so he couldnt kick goals that coach would be the subject of ridicule. Theyd all laugh behind his back or ask if he was joking, some April fools thing perhaps...

quinsforever wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Can any one get a yards gained table please?

yards gained is unfortunately deceptive for 2 main reasons. Overkicked in-field kicks allow lots of easy quick yards to the catcher, and secondly, different coaches give their players different instructions once they catch a kick. 1/2P prob returns a kick with a kick 80+% of the time (my guess).

yards gained is much more useful in my opinion when comparing the back row 6, 7 and 8 for gain-line penetration.

fair enough..

Taylorman wrote:

quinsforever wrote:coaches mould a game plan around the players they have available.

wales have 1/2P who they wrap in cotton wool and have kick pens from the 1/2Way line,

Sorry quins, but that is just silly, not horses for courses, or at least not a horse on any course that I'd wanna bet on. Put it this way, on any training ground at any rugby field across NZ if the coach said the Fullback was not to be involved in any attacking play for fear of getting injured so he couldnt kick goals that coach would be the subject of ridicule. Theyd all laugh behind his back or ask if he was joking, some April fools thing perhaps...

how else to explain that 1/2P never runs the ball back? my point is exaggerated obviously but it rings true to me, especially given the way Gatland's teams play.

gatland is no idiot.

quinsforever wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

quinsforever wrote:coaches mould a game plan around the players they have available.

wales have 1/2P who they wrap in cotton wool and have kick pens from the 1/2Way line,

Sorry quins, but that is just silly, not horses for courses, or at least not a horse on any course that I'd wanna bet on. Put it this way, on any training ground at any rugby field across NZ if the coach said the Fullback was not to be involved in any attacking play for fear of getting injured so he couldnt kick goals that coach would be the subject of ridicule. Theyd all laugh behind his back or ask if he was joking, some April fools thing perhaps...

how else to explain that 1/2P never runs the ball back? my point is exaggerated obviously but it rings true to me, especially given the way Gatland's teams play.

gatland is no idiot.

Yes I just don't think its Gatlands explanation (the cotton wool theory). It might be a small part of it but if its Gatlands decision then its a poor one and he was never known for his knowledge of what makes backplay tick when he was here. I mean its the equivalent of telling a lock not to push in the scrums for fear of his hurting his back and not being able to take lineout ball. The attacking FB role IS the primary one in todays professional game.

quinsforever wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

quinsforever wrote:coaches mould a game plan around the players they have available.

wales have 1/2P who they wrap in cotton wool and have kick pens from the 1/2Way line,

Sorry quins, but that is just silly, not horses for courses, or at least not a horse on any course that I'd wanna bet on. Put it this way, on any training ground at any rugby field across NZ if the coach said the Fullback was not to be involved in any attacking play for fear of getting injured so he couldnt kick goals that coach would be the subject of ridicule. Theyd all laugh behind his back or ask if he was joking, some April fools thing perhaps...

how else to explain that 1/2P never runs the ball back? my point is exaggerated obviously but it rings true to me, especially given the way Gatland's teams play.

gatland is no idiot.

It could be that the days of wales having two small nimble "turn on a sixpence" wingers the likes Halfpenny & Shane Williams, and flexible centres Hook or Henson are long gone, so now Wales have juggernauts on the wing normally Cuthbert and North who are both not exceptional defenders for there size, and you have Roberts and Davies in midfield all of them are big lumps who have a more difficulty on the reverse turn than some of the past backs. Also you now have 10s in Priestland and Biggar who are not natural defensive halfbacks who could hold the defensive line like Stephen Jones who was an exceptional defender.

So you have seen oppositions kicking over the Welsh wings/centres heads the last two seasons, hence if the welsh FB was always attacking the gainline there would be massive problems if he had to track back as soon as momentum broke down.

Taylorman wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:

Scratch wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Brown is the better fullback. Why? Because the primary role of a fullback in the modern game is to attack. Simple as that. Defending, high balls, goalkicking...all nice to haves, But if you aint a successful attacking fullback, then you are lacking in the modern game.

HAHAHAHAHA  

in which case with 23 caps over 7 years and only 2 tries i would suggest Brown is an unsuccessful attacking fullback.

Here's a ranking for full backs based on tries scored per game (since the last world cup)
1. Folau
2. Kirchner
3. Dagg
4. Brown
5. Kearney
6. Dulin
7. Halfpenny

Hope that helps.......

I don't see where I listed try scoring as a measure of that success. Try listing the number of tries scored where a fullback was involved in the attack...

You didn't. It's a bit spurious, but seeing as someone was using it. I just thought I'd emphasis it wasn't useful when discussing these players. I doubt there are any stats that would be useful (something like %high balls caught when challenged might be)