Halfpenny versus Brown

First topic message reminder :

One of the key clashes for me will be how Leigh halfpenny stands up to England's player of the tournament so far.

With both defenses so tight the aerial skills of both will come into question as will be their ability to make space on the counter.

Key decisions such as when to join the line of attack and when to hold a deep position to guard against a turn over, and reading of the opponents kicking game will be vital.

Halfpenny shone in the lions tour last year but has been a little off the pace so far this time. Can he lift his game for England's new super weapon?

Brown is the full shilling & 10xs the player 1/2p is.....




Sorry 

mystiroakey wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Can any one get a yards gained table please?

yards gained is unfortunately deceptive for 2 main reasons. Overkicked in-field kicks allow lots of easy quick yards to the catcher, and secondly, different coaches give their players different instructions once they catch a kick. 1/2P prob returns a kick with a kick 80+% of the time (my guess).

yards gained is much more useful in my opinion when comparing the back row 6, 7 and 8 for gain-line penetration.

fair enough..

Possesions wise this six nations hes only kicked about 20%, passed 40% and ran 40%. Now admitedly not all those possesions come from kick returns but it does that either he is getting involved in attacking play ( people are passing him the ball) or the amount of kicks he returns with kicks is greatly exaggerated in peoples minds ...or more likely a bit of both.
Interestingly though the game I "selected at random" earlier to make the point about Byrne ...in that one Byrne kicked over 40% of his possession ...but still managed to score...whereas halfpenny on the wing ran 60% of his possession and didnt.

Which just goes to show you can disprove anything with carefully selected statistics.

Agree with Taylor its not useful and just muddies the water.

Its amazing how many posters seem to see scoring tries as the measure of a FBs success. Usually the ones who have "their players right up there on the table"

The variables of that seem to be as many as the stars in the sky...... quality of team mates, quality of opponents, quality of coaches, tactics, weather conditions, pitch conditions etc.

Its not so much how many tries they have scored its more relevant to look at how many opportunities they have to score tries and how many they convert. But at the end of the day its only part of the role and you have got to say its not the most important one.

Even the FB definition seems to be different these days dependant on the authors background. But this still seems to be the overall job spec

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/rugby_union/rules/players/newsid_4028000/4028419.stm wrote:The modern-day full-back should be the complete rugby player.
The number 15 is often the last line of defence or the first player making the break in attack.

You'll need the safest pair of hands in the team.

Why? Because you're the one responsible for catching the opposition's high and testing kicks in attack - and catch them every time.

So expect to perform under pressure when the going gets seriously tough.

That us brown full stop..

but i have a feeling that article was written in response to browns work.. A15 can and will be anything the coach wants him to be

mystiroakey wrote:That us brown full stop..

but i have a feeling that article was written in response to browns work.. A15 can and will be anything the coach wants him to be

Exactly this article was written because Brown has suddenly scored two tries and is on fire, and Halfpenny is perceived to be a tad off form.

"It could be that the days of wales having two small nimble "turn on a sixpence" wingers the likes Halfpenny & Shane Williams are long gone"

If he sorts out his defence, Jordan Williams may start to feature fairly soon.

Jordan Williams is class!

I think 1/2p is handicapped by the orders he is under for Wales - Ie kick is the only option in your own half - this means we don't see the best of him as a counterattacker. Browns temper is his main weakness - he will collect yellow cards and people will wind him up.
Both very good players who would grace most sides

TJ wrote:I think 1/2p is handicapped by the orders he is under for Wales - Ie kick is the only option in your own half - this means we don't see the best of him as a counterattacker.  Browns temper is his main weakness - he will collect yellow cards and people will wind him up.
Both very good players who would grace most sides

not sure about Browns temper. he has been exemplary in an england shirt, and always seems very humble in interviews. i think he gets pumped up about wearing the shirt, but that's because he is 28 and it has taken him so long to make the shirt his own. i dont think i've seen a player more pleased to score than he was against Scotland. he's clearly got passion, and thusfar it all seems to be channeled positively.

Brown comes across as mr angry but I think his disciplinary record is very good, I'll check

Browns temper is his main weakness - he will collect yellow cards and people will wind him up.
Both very good players who would grace most sides

When was the last time Brown picked up a yellow card?

Dunno - but his bad temper is a weakness - as it is with any other bad tempered player and when they learn to control it - see Martin Johnson for a great example - they are a better player. Brown will be a better player for losing the petulance - as will Farrell. It only takes one pen and yellow at a critical time....................

TJ wrote:Dunno - but his bad temper is a weakness - as it is with any other bad tempered player and when they learn to control it - see Martin Johnson for a great example - they are a better player.  Brown will be a better player for losing the petulance - as will Farrell.  It only takes one pen and yellow at a critical time....................

What did Brown do that was petulant?

scots fans mistakenly thought Brown was rubbing it in players faces when he scored a try vs Scotland. Brown got criticised by brian moore and matt dawson, and sorted it all out on twitter! he was not being unsportsmanlike at all, was just really happy to have finally scored!

Brown petulant... errr- some posters really need to hang on to something negative about a player dont they. What next- he is actually 45 and an android!

I don' think its even that, he does seem to try and get in people's faces on occasion but Farrell is a lot worse.

Farrell has been a lucky boy. Granted.. But brown is just doing what he needs to do and is not going beyond the line.

mystiroakey wrote:Farrell has been a lucky boy. Granted.. But brown is just doing what he needs to do and is not going beyond the line.

Agreed, spikey players are great as they can wind the opposition up, they are only seem as a negative till THEY get carded (like MP)

personally, i like farrell's spikiness. And i like Browns too.
Just as i always enjoyed Dallaglio and Johnson never taking a backwards step.

rugby is not tiddlywinks. Farrell so far seems to be able to stay on the penalty as opposed to yellow card side of niggle. He is taking risks but i think he knows exactly what he is doing.

england used to do this off and on field to France for 10 years in the 80s and 90s and it was very effective.

I don't see why 'spikeyness' is needed in a 10 to be honest but that's just me.

u used to have it at 9.

doesnt matter where it is as long as its somewhere in the team. it's like tabasco, a little goes a long way, too much ruins it for everyone!

Like if a late shoulder charge was carded ?  

winning rugby is about playing on the margins. You could say that great teams and players don't need to result to this action/behaviour etc but they very best often permanently live in that grey areas of the law. Richie McCaw is the master of this, so was Jonno.

Great if you get away with it. Bad if you don't . His aggression has served him well in te past with big time tackles but on Saturday it lost possession for his team and 70m in territory. Had Ireland been better they would have punished that mistake.

Brown's disciplinary record:
6 yellow cards and no red cards in 213 + 10 appearances for Quins.

No yellows for England either

And anyone who thinks the spikiness is new or only for England, you haven't watched him play much

less than 1 yellow card a season on average for someone labelled a bit of a hothead is not bad.

Schalk burger is labelled as a gentle giant by most.

Sort of makes me think these labels are a bit nonsense.

GunsGerms wrote:

TJ wrote:Dunno - but his bad temper is a weakness - as it is with any other bad tempered player and when they learn to control it - see Martin Johnson for a great example - they are a better player.  Brown will be a better player for losing the petulance - as will Farrell.  It only takes one pen and yellow at a critical time....................

What did Brown do that was petulant?

Plenty of examples of him losing his temper and pushing folk and generally getting into rows - like the France game for example.

Its just an opinion about Brown but when petulant / easily angered players learn to curb their temper they become better players for it.

"In fact, he got carded against Irish last season for an intentional knock on (which I'm not sure is an offence that is significantly more likely if you have a bad temper), so his last yellow card otherwise in all Quins appearances was against Sarries 17/04/2010."

Pushing people isn't losing your temper, it's testing theirs...

Come off it - Brown has been seen many times to have the red mist descend and it leads you into poor decisions and could cost your side. Lets put it this way. If I were an opposition coach I would recognise this as a weakness in his game and I would see if players can get under his skin and cause him to lose the plot. Its what used to happen to Johnson till he learned to curb his temper

If that's what you think, fair enough. I very much doubt it would work, I think it would hugely backfire, so I hope coaches think the same way as you

TJ wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

TJ wrote:Dunno - but his bad temper is a weakness - as it is with any other bad tempered player and when they learn to control it - see Martin Johnson for a great example - they are a better player.  Brown will be a better player for losing the petulance - as will Farrell.  It only takes one pen and yellow at a critical time....................

What did Brown do that was petulant?

Plenty of examples of him losing his temper and pushing folk and generally getting into rows - like the France game for example.

Its just an opinion about Brown but when petulant / easily angered players learn to curb their temper they become better players for it.

Rugby is a physical sport and anyone who says you don't have to sometimes defend yourself, your teammates and take action clearly doesn't know much about rugby.

Even if you mate is wrong to get physical, if he gets in a scrap you back him.... because its you against them no matter what. This was one of the first things my old coach taught me after we all stood by whilst our teammate got a kicking once....that was drilled into us. Obviously this doesn't include things like gouging etc but you pull your man off all the same and make sure he ain't beaten to a pulp.

Take the time when BOD was trying to be his mate.... thats jokes coming from the man who snubbed meeting the boks post 1st lions test because they were still in competition which riled then boks as it went against traditional protocol.

ChequeredJersey wrote:If that's what you think, fair enough. I very much doubt it would work, I think it would hugely backfire, so I hope coaches think the same way as you

Worked well against Johnson - lost his rag and gave away pens every match until he learned and no doubt at all other players wound him up deliberately

fa0019 wrote:

TJ wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

TJ wrote:Dunno - but his bad temper is a weakness - as it is with any other bad tempered player and when they learn to control it - see Martin Johnson for a great example - they are a better player.  Brown will be a better player for losing the petulance - as will Farrell.  It only takes one pen and yellow at a critical time....................

What did Brown do that was petulant?

Plenty of examples of him losing his temper and pushing folk and generally getting into rows - like the France game for example.

Its just an opinion about Brown but when petulant / easily angered players learn to curb their temper they become better players for it.

Rugby is a physical sport and anyone who says you don't have to sometimes defend yourself, your teammates and take action clearly doesn't know much about rugby.

And if you keep your temper you are much more likely to get the refs decisions going your way.

And does Brown give away penalties?

He has certainly lost his temper at times and this might just cost them in a game one day. Thats the point. Its a weakness in his game - channelled agression is fine, red mist is not. Its a fine line but he will be a better player once he learns this line and how to stay inside it.

BTW - nowt at all wrong with his try celebration against scotland - I didn't =even notice it.

Has he lost it for England yet?

TJ wrote:He has certainly lost his temper at times and this might just cost them in a game one day.  Thats the point.  Its a weakness in his game - channelled agression is fine, red mist is not.  Its a fine line but he will be a better player once he learns this line and how to stay inside it.

BTW - nowt at all wrong with his try celebration against scotland - I didn't =even notice it.

But how much has his added aggression won games? That extra bottle, additional grunt in the tackle or pace to catch a player? Difficult nee impossible to quantify but its important, thats what we do know.

You have to take players as they are, a full package. Take aggression out of his game like many others and the rest of their game will suffer.

Its about net benefit... if it's positive, great you take the bad because overall you are up... if like Cipriani its not worth the extra hassle... you drop him/don't pick him.

Given he hasn't given away many stupid penalties, never been carded in test rugby and on average is carded less than once a season I wouldn't ask him to do anything different.

fa0019 wrote:

TJ wrote:He has certainly lost his temper at times and this might just cost them in a game one day.  Thats the point.  Its a weakness in his game - channelled agression is fine, red mist is not.  Its a fine line but he will be a better player once he learns this line and how to stay inside it.

BTW - nowt at all wrong with his try celebration against scotland - I didn't =even notice it.

But how much has his added aggression won games? That extra bottle, additional grunt in the tackle or pace to catch a player? Difficult nee impossible to quantify but its important, thats what we do know.

You have to take players as they are, a full package. Take aggression out of his game like many others and the rest of their game will suffer.

Its about net benefit... if it's positive, great you take the bad because overall you are up... if like Cipriani its not worth the extra hassle... you drop him/don't pick him.

Given he hasn't given away many stupid penalties, never been carded in test rugby and on average is carded less than once a season I wouldn't ask him to do anything different.

I agree he is spiky. He is passionate. He will not back down but he does not go over the line. As has been pointed out he has not had a yellow card for foul play for a year or so.

If picking a full back I would go for Brown over 1/2p. The only reason I would choose 1/2p would be if The team lacked a place kicker.

4 years since the one before that

No 7&1/2 wrote:Has he lost it for England yet?

He definitely lost his virginity on the new zealand tour

Brown scored his first try for England the other week v the mighty Scotland,
Now he is better than the writers player of the year,lions and 2013 six nations player of the tournament,grand slam winner,lions series winner,triple crown winning Leigh Halfpenny?

You got love this website   

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Has he lost it for England yet?

He definitely lost his virginity on the new zealand tour

not sure I heard that was a topsy turvey story

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Brown scored his first try for England the other week v the mighty Scotland,
Now he is better than the writers player of the year,lions and 2013 six nations player of the tournament,grand slam winner,lions series winner,triple crown winning Leigh Halfpenny?

You got love this website   

You are completely wrong, it was his 2ND try…..in 7 years and 23 matches.

Keep up.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Brown scored his first try for England the other week v the mighty Scotland,
Now he is better than the writers player of the year,lions and 2013 six nations player of the tournament,grand slam winner,lions series winner,triple crown winning Leigh Halfpenny?

You got love this website   

You are completely wrong, it was his 2ND try…..in 7 years and 23 matches.

Keep up.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Brown scored his first try for England the other week v the mighty Scotland,
Now he is better than the writers player of the year,lions and 2013 six nations player of the tournament,grand slam winner,lions series winner,triple crown winning Leigh Halfpenny?

You got love this website   

You are completely wrong, it was his 2ND try…..in 7 years and 23 matches.

Keep up.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Brown scored his first try for England the other week v the mighty Scotland,
Now he is better than the writers player of the year,lions and 2013 six nations player of the tournament,grand slam winner,lions series winner,triple crown winning Leigh Halfpenny?

You got love this website   

Pretty sure he scored against France, so well done on starting the post accurately...

What next guys? Correct my spelling and grammar?

So explain how brown is better than halfpenny?

How about this: I bet you one apologetic post that Brown will score a try next weekend against Wales and Halfpenny will only score points in multiples of 2 or 3? And another one that Brown will end the 6N as 2014 Man of the Tournament

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:What next guys? Correct my spelling and grammar?  

So explain how brown is better than halfpenny?

You will see in 9 days time

But on current form, I don't even see how you can question it