Halfpenny versus Brown

by GloriousEmpire Tue 25 Feb 2014, 8:38 am

First topic message reminder :

One of the key clashes for me will be how Leigh halfpenny stands up to England's player of the tournament so far.

With both defenses so tight the aerial skills of both will come into question as will be their ability to make space on the counter.

Key decisions such as when to join the line of attack and when to hold a deep position to guard against a turn over, and reading of the opponents kicking game will be vital.

Halfpenny shone in the lions tour last year but has been a little off the pace so far this time. Can he lift his game for England's new super weapon?

by Jhamer25 Tue 25 Feb 2014, 6:29 pm

Honestly now and this isn't to stir anything up but the only two thing that have impressed me about the English this Championship is:
Mike Brown who is already my main contender for man of the tournament and his attacking game from high balls and in a lot of cases mindless kicking by the opposition
Dylan Hartley's consistency at the line out as been the best of any Hooker i have seen in years
There's not that much more where England have been good or dominant in.

However, those two things alone could ruin our chances of winning the game because our Line outs haven't been the best; improved vs France but still not convincing. As long as they can keep their line out secure in any position on the pitch we will struggle, they have more of a chance nicking a few line outs from our throw in in our own 22 or on an attacking lineout which could ruin our chances.

And our rubbish kicking game as we kick straight down the throat of our opposition. There two strengths have been our weaknesses.

by GloriousEmpire Tue 25 Feb 2014, 6:30 pm

It's probably all attributable to bad defense. That's what I read on another thread.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 25 Feb 2014, 7:35 pm

The Saint wrote:
EnglishReign wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
That Jonny May is also a car crash waiting to happen. The only time I have seen such a headless chicken running around in circles / across the field / backwards, is watching the under 8s at our club. The boy is clueless has he ever been coached?

Well 24 tries in 50 club apps isn't too clueless and I suspect goes some way into explaining his inclusion.

Still made 80 metres and beat 6 defenders on Saturday - not bad when you're mostly running sideways.

How many tries in international rugby? If you listen to guys like Beshocked that was all that matters, must have suited his anti-welsh winger argument at the time, because for what it's worth May is a dangerous winger. As is Nowell.

May ill buy. Nowell is about as dangerous as mark jones. Ashton has scored twices as many tries in a single test than he has in his enter club and international career. H

by flyhalffactory Tue 25 Feb 2014, 8:39 pm

fa0019 wrote:halfpenny is not a world class winger and never has been. Top class 15 sure but his place kicking has a lot to do with that. But lets take a stab of reality here... the 2 biggest kicks he'll perhaps ever take in his life save a world cup final he missed (the kick to take Wales into the RWC final in 2011 and the kick to win the series in the 2nd test in the Lions series). Top class kicker, clutch performer at the crunch, debatable at this stage in his career.

In terms of 15 take his kicking out of the equation and then measure him up to Brown, Kearney & Hogg.... let alone Beale, Folau, Le Roux and Dagg.

Not saying he's anything less but he's not standout from those fullbacks in the home nations let alone in the world.

Can you qualify that fa0019

This is what the press wrote about the youngster in 2009

Blessed with pace, power, balance and accurate goal kicking, it was his consistency which impressed most.

Halfpenny was given his Wales debut against the Springboks last November and told to keep former world player of the year Bryan Habana quiet.

The Boks won 20-15 but there wasn't a peep out of Habana.

Halfpenny then went onto score four tries (should have scored three more tries if certain Welsh centres had been more aware) in the first five matches which included pitching himself against some serious opposition wingers from SA, NZ, and France, this "world class form" saw him selected for the Lions at only just gone 20, and if it had not being for a serious thing injury which kept him out for what five-six months he would have been nailed only for the Lions 14 shirt.

So yes his form going into the 2009 Lions series was as good as any 14 on the world stage at the time. I think he scored eight tries in twenty two matches as a winger, I think that's up there with the best.

Contrast this with Brown as an England winger then the statement, that Brown is a better attacking player is a bit lame.

by Barney McGrew did it Tue 25 Feb 2014, 8:48 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
fa0019 wrote:halfpenny is not a world class winger and never has been. Top class 15 sure but his place kicking has a lot to do with that. But lets take a stab of reality here... the 2 biggest kicks he'll perhaps ever take in his life save a world cup final he missed (the kick to take Wales into the RWC final in 2011 and the kick to win the series in the 2nd test in the Lions series). Top class kicker, clutch performer at the crunch, debatable at this stage in his career.

In terms of 15 take his kicking out of the equation and then measure him up to Brown, Kearney & Hogg.... let alone Beale, Folau, Le Roux and Dagg.

Not saying he's anything less but he's not standout from those fullbacks in the home nations let alone in the world.

Can you qualify that fa0019

This is what the press wrote about the youngster in 2009

Blessed with pace, power, balance and accurate goal kicking, it was his consistency which impressed most.

Halfpenny was given his Wales debut against the Springboks last November and told to keep former world player of the year Bryan Habana quiet.

The Boks won 20-15 but there wasn't a peep out of Habana.

Halfpenny then went onto score four tries (should have scored three more tries if certain Welsh centres had been more aware) in the first five matches which included pitching himself against some serious opposition wingers from SA, NZ, and France, this "world class form" saw him selected for the Lions at only just gone 20, and if it had not being for a serious thing injury which kept him out for what five-six months he would have been nailed only for the Lions 14 shirt.

So yes his form going into the 2009 Lions series was as good as any 14 on the world stage at the time. I think he scored eight tries in twenty two matches as a winger, I think that's up there with the best.

Contrast this with Brown as an England winger then the statement, that Brown is a better attacking player is a bit lame.

Just to let you know - Brown's not a winger. He is a better attacking FB tho'.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 25 Feb 2014, 8:55 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:I think he scored eight tries in twenty two matches as a winger, I think that's up there with the best.

Habana 55 in 95
SS Williams 60 in 91
Folau 10 in 15
Ashton 18 in 37
Visser 6 in 12
Cuthbert 11 in 22

Admittedly its a lot better than Norths 18 in 51. And yeah lets no go there for Browns scoring record.

by flyhalffactory Tue 25 Feb 2014, 8:56 pm

Barney McGrew wrote:Just to let you know - Brown's not a winger. He is a better attacking FB tho'.

Are you f**king serious? furious

We all know Brown is now playing FB but he started as a winger as did 1/2p.

Jeeze read the messages Tumbleweed

by Barney McGrew did it Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:02 pm

Oh yeah - you're talking about 2009. Silly me, I'm stuck in the present. Emo

by flyhalffactory Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:12 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:I think he scored eight tries in twenty two matches as a winger, I think that's up there with the best.

Habana 55 in 95
SS Williams 60 in 91
Folau 10 in 15
Ashton 18 in 37
Visser 6 in 12
Cuthbert 11 in 22

Admittedly its a lot better than Norths 18 in 51. And yeah lets no go there for Browns scoring record.

The point is 4 tries out of 5 matches (then a serious thigh injury) put him up there with the best, and you could suggest but for that injury who knows what he would have achieved. Chris Ashton is a class winger and most of the games have being against real quality opponents, but 9 of his 18 tries came in three games.... Italy (4), Georgia (2), Romania (3).

by flyhalffactory Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:13 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Oh yeah - you're talking about 2009. Silly me, I'm stuck in the present.

You are stuck alright..... somewhere the rest of us fear to tread

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:14 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Barney McGrew wrote:Just to let you know - Brown's not a winger. He is a better attacking FB tho'.

Are you f**king serious?

We all know Brown is now playing FB but he started as a winger as did 1/2p.

Jeeze read the messages

Borwn didnt start as a winger. He just got picked there for a while by Lancaster due to Lancaster having an obsession with playing two fullbacks and wingers that cant score . His early tests were all at fullback and he was a fullback at age grade and saxons. Hes never been more than a cover winger, he looks lost out there.

by Barney McGrew did it Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:17 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Barney McGrew did it wrote:Oh yeah - you're talking about 2009. Silly me, I'm stuck in the present.

You are stuck alright..... somewhere the rest of us fear to tread

Aye - the present apparently. Come on in - the water's great.

by flyhalffactory Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:27 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Barney McGrew wrote:Just to let you know - Brown's not a winger. He is a better attacking FB tho'.

Are you f**king serious?

We all know Brown is now playing FB but he started as a winger as did 1/2p.

Jeeze read the messages

Borwn didnt start as a winger. He just got picked there for a while by Lancaster due to Lancaster having an obsession with playing two fullbacks and wingers that cant score . His early tests were all at fullback and he was a fullback at age grade and saxons. Hes never been more than a cover winger, he looks lost out there.

Ok he started as a FB (SA SA NZ away) that's as hard a baptism as you could wish for, then he went wing, then FB, then wing again FB. At the end of the day his record as an attacking force never came into fruition the first 21 games saw a big fat zero. But this term he has scored 2 in 3 games.

The point is LancasterWay and GatlandBall are two different styles, the latter doesn't do a thing for 1/2ps ability to convert scoring opportunities

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:31 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:I think he scored eight tries in twenty two matches as a winger, I think that's up there with the best.

Habana 55 in 95
SS Williams 60 in 91
Folau 10 in 15
Ashton 18 in 37
Visser 6 in 12
Cuthbert 11 in 22

Admittedly its a lot better than Norths 18 in 51. And yeah lets no go there for Browns scoring record.

The point is 4 tries out of 5 matches (then a serious thigh injury) put him up there with the best, and you could suggest but for that injury who knows what he would have achieved. Chris Ashton is a class winger and most of the games have being against real quality opponents, but 9 of his 18 tries came in three games.... Italy (4), Georgia (2), Romania (3).

Ashton got dropped because he wasnt scoring anymore, his record is bad recently. But still better than Halfpennys.
Lets take out the soft tries ...against top 8 opposition Halfpenny has 2 as a winger and 2 as a fullback. Its pretty abysmal. To say hes one of the best if you only count the games before he got injured is a bit like saying Wales should pick Morgan Stoddart.

Try scoring records is not the thing to look for with either Brown or Halfpenny as a wing or a fullback.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:33 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Barney McGrew wrote:Just to let you know - Brown's not a winger. He is a better attacking FB tho'.

Are you f**king serious?

We all know Brown is now playing FB but he started as a winger as did 1/2p.

Jeeze read the messages

Borwn didnt start as a winger. He just got picked there for a while by Lancaster due to Lancaster having an obsession with playing two fullbacks and wingers that cant score . His early tests were all at fullback and he was a fullback at age grade and saxons. Hes never been more than a cover winger, he looks lost out there.

Ok he started as a FB (SA SA NZ away) that's as hard a baptism as you could wish for, then he went wing, then FB, then wing again FB. At the end of the day his record as an attacking force never came into fruition the first 21 games saw a big fat zero. But this term he has scored 2 in 3 games.

The point is LancasterWay and GatlandBall are two different styles, the latter doesn't do a thing for 1/2ps ability to convert scoring opportunities

Ah so now its Gatalnd not the injury?

Have you seen how many tries wingers and fullbacks have scored under Lancaster?

by quinsforever Tue 25 Feb 2014, 9:51 pm

he has played 2.1 games so far. and no tries. but i agree, both he and nowell do look dangerous.

i bet england are going to occasionally kick infield, hoping 1/2P return kicks to the england back3, with a very broken up midfield.

by flyhalffactory Tue 25 Feb 2014, 10:11 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:
Barney McGrew wrote:Just to let you know - Brown's not a winger. He is a better attacking FB tho'.

Are you f**king serious?

We all know Brown is now playing FB but he started as a winger as did 1/2p.

Jeeze read the messages

Borwn didnt start as a winger. He just got picked there for a while by Lancaster due to Lancaster having an obsession with playing two fullbacks and wingers that cant score . His early tests were all at fullback and he was a fullback at age grade and saxons. Hes never been more than a cover winger, he looks lost out there.

Ok he started as a FB (SA SA NZ away) that's as hard a baptism as you could wish for, then he went wing, then FB, then wing again FB. At the end of the day his record as an attacking force never came into fruition the first 21 games saw a big fat zero. But this term he has scored 2 in 3 games.

The point is LancasterWay and GatlandBall are two different styles, the latter doesn't do a thing for 1/2ps ability to convert scoring opportunities

Ah so now its Gatalnd not the injury?

Have you seen how many tries wingers and fullbacks have scored under Lancaster?

Do you not think that Englands structure and style has not changed his season?

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 25 Feb 2014, 10:19 pm

I think they are getting better at using their backs since they mucked about in Argentina yeah but they still seem to see anyone outside of 13 as defensive or kick return players. If anyone of the back three is going to become a genuine try scoring threat though Id expect it to be May. Brown is not as good as 2 in 3 games suggets, nor as bad as his prior record.
What he does excel in is handling high balls and return long kicks, hes had a ludicrous numbe rof meters with the ball in hand. It looks exciting but wether its reall better than pinning the opposition in their 22 with endless lineouts Im yet to be convinced, although tbf its gotten harder to do that with new quick lineout rules and players better able to field the ball.

All round Id happily take Halfpenny as the better player. But neither really excel as try scorers. Brown is a pretty limited player, but very very good at what he does.

by flyhalffactory Tue 25 Feb 2014, 10:34 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I think they are getting better at using their backs since they mucked about in Argentina yeah but they still seem to see anyone outside of 13 as defensive or kick return players. If anyone of the back three is going to become a genuine try scoring threat though Id expect it to be May. Brown is not as good as 2 in 3 games suggets, nor as bad as his prior record.
What he does excel in is handling high balls and return long kicks, hes had a ludicrous numbe rof meters with the ball in hand. It looks exciting but wether its reall better than pinning the opposition in their 22 with endless lineouts Im yet to be convinced, although tbf its gotten harder to do that with new quick lineout rules and players better able to field the ball.

All round Id happily take Halfpenny as the better player. But neither really excel as try scorers. Brown is a pretty limited player, but very very good at what he does.

Strewth its incredible..... 8 in 22 v 2 in 24 and you still feebly attempt to consider them the same as an attacking force.

Its quite simple as far as the records reveal...... 4 tries out of 5 games, serious injury, then 4 in what 17 games. What's more clear is the opportunities to tries scored ratio. Halfpenny was right up there with the best.

I think Brown is excellent at the moment whilst Halfpenny is off the boil.

Anyway I think we are done here, this is not going to go anyway

You cannot see it but its clearly there

by ChequeredJersey Tue 25 Feb 2014, 11:30 pm

Brown isn't even a limited player. The speed at which are having to change their opinions about him is getting quite funny.

by bedfordwelsh Tue 25 Feb 2014, 11:41 pm

I think most knew brown was potentially class but got messed around last year on the wing, this year now he is at XV people seeing just how good he is.

If or rather when Halfpenny is allowed to attack then he shows how good he is as well and has ths knack of getting up or bouncing off tackles.

Both class players simple as.

by Scratch Tue 25 Feb 2014, 11:44 pm

Brown is in form no doubt but a super weapon. Hardly.

There really is no comparison other than they both play full back and Brown is looking good.

Brown debuted in 2007 and has 23 caps and 10 points.

Halfpenny debuted a year later and has 377 points and 51 caps with at least 12 tries.

by ChequeredJersey Tue 25 Feb 2014, 11:52 pm

So similar try to game ratio at FB then Smile

by Scratch Wed 26 Feb 2014, 12:57 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:So similar try to game ratio at FB then

2 tries in 6 years, I've scored more.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 26 Feb 2014, 7:54 am

flyhalffactory wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I think they are getting better at using their backs since they mucked about in Argentina yeah but they still seem to see anyone outside of 13 as defensive or kick return players. If anyone of the back three is going to become a genuine try scoring threat though Id expect it to be May. Brown is not as good as 2 in 3 games suggets, nor as bad as his prior record.
What he does excel in is handling high balls and return long kicks, hes had a ludicrous numbe rof meters with the ball in hand. It looks exciting but wether its reall better than pinning the opposition in their 22 with endless lineouts Im yet to be convinced, although tbf its gotten harder to do that with new quick lineout rules and players better able to field the ball.

All round Id happily take Halfpenny as the better player. But neither really excel as try scorers. Brown is a pretty limited player, but very very good at what he does.

Strewth its incredible..... 8 in 22 v 2 in 24 and you still feebly attempt to consider them the same as an attacking force.

Its quite simple as far as the records reveal...... 4 tries out of 5 games, serious injury, then 4 in what 17 games. What's more clear is the opportunities to tries scored ratio. Halfpenny was right up there with the best.

I think Brown is excellent at the moment whilst Halfpenny is off the boil.

Anyway I think we are done here, this is not going to go anyway

You cannot see it but its clearly there

Whats there? That Halfpenny had a good run for a very brief time against teams including canada? Youre also ignoring that his record is actually 12 caps in 54 (52 starts) games and that a higher percentage of Browns games have been against tough opposition and as a replacement.

Whiulst Halfpennys may be slightly better neither has a good scoring record, deal with it. Your suggestion was that Halfpenny was "up their with the best" in terms of try scoring which is patently untrue. The amount you know about the situation is reflected in you claiming that Brown started his career as a wing, which is simply not the case. He has never played wing for a sustained period as anything more than a fill in at club or country level and when he did get that run of games for England it was in a "two fullbacks" set up with Goode and Foden where the positions were interchangable in attack and defence, Goode stepping up into the centers to act as a second playmaker.

To just cherry pick that he scored 4 tries (2 against Canada, 1 against England and 1 against Scotland who at the time were ranked 9th) over 5 years ago as evidence that hes a rampant natural try scorer just held back by the evil Gatland style of play is as ridiculous as claiming that Brown is suddenly Alex Cuthbert because he scored 2 tries in as many games

Their scoring records as fullbacks are both pretty rubbish. Halfpennys as a swing is slightly better but still not great.

Neither is a big try scoring player, but thats not what they are picked for.

by beshocked Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:06 am

A lot of Halfpenny's praise comes from his world class kicking. He's one of the best place kickers in the world but that's not the normal prerequisite for a full back.

Halfpenny does the basics of a full back well but I think his goal kicking makes him seem better than he is.

Brown is in much better form than Halfpenny at the moment. Halfpenny will need to step up his game to compete with Brown.

by Taylorman Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:18 am

Brown is the better fullback. Why? Because the primary role of a fullback in the modern game is to attack. Simple as that. Defending, high balls, goalkicking...all nice to haves, But if you aint a successful attacking fullback, then you are lacking in the modern game.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:20 am

Dagg has been dropped by Blackadder for Colin Slade. His passing and tackling wasn't deemed up to scratch. It could be a similar tale of last year where like Nonu he brings himself into form in a black shirt.

The reason why I bring him up is that last year his try scoring rate was down a lot on previous years. But apart from the French series where he was turning his Super form around, I thought he was one of our most consistent performers. If you look at the tries, he created a lot of tries for Ben Smith by coming up in the line and using quick hands to send Ben Smith into space.

You don't need all your players to be try scoring machines. You just need someone to do the job for you and for other players to help that come about. In 2011, Dagg was instrumental on attack as in he was the try scorer: the SA try out of nothing in NZ and finishing off the Nonu one shoe try in SA. But in 2013 he did his job by creating opportunities for players around him. Brown and Halfpenny can be those players but it seems Brown has the freer tactical license to express himself. That is not to say Halfpenny is not fulfilling his job that Gatland wants him to do though. The problem is with Gatland's overly conservative, safety first tactics. If you can't score enough try scoring opportunities in a game, you are doing yourself a disservice.

by Taylorman Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:28 am

yeah Dagg supported the more thirstier try scorers in Ben Smith and Savea, piatau etc but thats the point with Dagg, others have more energy, Piatau particularly looking to explode at every opportunity. Dagg has mellowed in that sense and hes the type of player that cant afford to. Hes an 'on the edge' player, sharp, ready to spark. Last year he was missing that and supportive though he was, hes missing something.

by slartibartfast Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:34 am

It's difficult to compare. But if were lions coach I'd be picking HP.

Brown always seems to be side step-able. He's in shot 10 metres behind with hands on hips after a try is scored. . I suspect this is to do with the fact that he has to cover the poor wingers.

HP isn't quite up there with his form - but none of the welsh team have.

I suppose we'll have to weight and see...

by ChequeredJersey Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:37 am

Scratch wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:So similar try to game ratio at FB then

2 tries in 6 years, I've scored more.

At international level? Congratulations! You should have told someone!

Oh and I've rarely ever in 8 years seen Brown sidestepped

by quinsforever Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:42 am

hmmmm

on present form, absent kicking, there is no way a non-gatball-coach would pick 1/2P ahead of Brown.

1/2P has thrown 2 horrible interception passes in the 4 attempts i have seen him return the kick this 6N. i think he's forgotten how to do it he has spent so long following gatrules re inf-field kick and chase.

i hope 1/2P gets his mojo back but he does seem a bit lost ball in hand at the moment, and lacking in confidence.

there, now i've said it he'll probably run in a hattrick next saturday Smile

by No9 Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:46 am

Top marks to GE. He has landed you all with this one, with only a few prods needed before he could walk away and let the bickering continue.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:49 am

Why is disagreement bickering? Personally I thought it a timely debate with the England vs Wales match coming up and the rise and fall of both Halfpenny and Brown this year.

by fa0019 Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:50 am

flyhalffactory wrote:
fa0019 wrote:halfpenny is not a world class winger and never has been. Top class 15 sure but his place kicking has a lot to do with that. But lets take a stab of reality here... the 2 biggest kicks he'll perhaps ever take in his life save a world cup final he missed (the kick to take Wales into the RWC final in 2011 and the kick to win the series in the 2nd test in the Lions series). Top class kicker, clutch performer at the crunch, debatable at this stage in his career.

In terms of 15 take his kicking out of the equation and then measure him up to Brown, Kearney & Hogg.... let alone Beale, Folau, Le Roux and Dagg.

Not saying he's anything less but he's not standout from those fullbacks in the home nations let alone in the world.

Can you qualify that fa0019

This is what the press wrote about the youngster in 2009

Blessed with pace, power, balance and accurate goal kicking, it was his consistency which impressed most.

Halfpenny was given his Wales debut against the Springboks last November and told to keep former world player of the year Bryan Habana quiet.

The Boks won 20-15 but there wasn't a peep out of Habana.

Halfpenny then went onto score four tries (should have scored three more tries if certain Welsh centres had been more aware) in the first five matches which included pitching himself against some serious opposition wingers from SA, NZ, and France, this "world class form" saw him selected for the Lions at only just gone 20, and if it had not being for a serious thing injury which kept him out for what five-six months he would have been nailed only for the Lions 14 shirt.

So yes his form going into the 2009 Lions series was as good as any 14 on the world stage at the time. I think he scored eight tries in twenty two matches as a winger, I think that's up there with the best.

Contrast this with Brown as an England winger then the statement, that Brown is a better attacking player is a bit lame.

Leigh Halfpenny has played wing 22 times for Wales. In that time he scored 8 tries, 4 of which came against Canada (2), Samoa and Fiji. Taking those games out his record is 4 in 19. Against the big 5 nations (3N, FRA & ENG) his record is 2 tries in 12 matches as a winger. If thats a world class record to you I wonder how many players you actually count as World class.... Tom Youngs, Gordan D'arcy, Rhys Priestland?

No way in hell would he have been a lions test player in 09. Taken the no. 14 jersey over Bowe! Not a chance.

Taking a snippet out a paper is meaningless... in 2004 Charlie Hodgson ruled the roost over the boks (recently crowned 3N champs) at twickenham with a top performance. What does that mean... nothing.

FB is his position. Can he do a job at wing. Sure he can but is he "world class", if top 3 is a definition of being world class I'm not sure he would even be a world class fullback (taking kicking out of the argument as most FBs aren't required to kick penalties) and I think you'd find many people saying they'd rather have Folau, Kearney, Dagg, Le Roux etc ahead of them... and on current form, even Brown.

He is a top class FB but don't let place kicking divert your eyes. Comparing him to other kickers... Morne is a better kicker (the best in the world) and Farrell, Sexton, Carter etc are his equal with the kicking tee.

by nobbled Wed 26 Feb 2014, 9:57 am

On form I like Halfpenny. I like his counterattacking, his focus under the highball, and then also being able to kick makes him bloody useful. He hasn't been on form, but he'll get it back.

Brown is great under the high ball, a great footballer (a goalie apparently) and he is so difficult to tackle. Usually takes two or three to finally stop him, opening up potential space elsewhere on the field.

Within the England team, and how they are playing - I'd have Brown. We need that attacking threat and security he offers at the back (with our wings a liability at the moment).

However with the Welsh team I'd have Halfpenny, his direct running and hard tackling suit Gatland's style, and Wales need a placekicker.

by beshocked Wed 26 Feb 2014, 10:06 am

The Saint wrote:
EnglishReign wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
That Jonny May is also a car crash waiting to happen. The only time I have seen such a headless chicken running around in circles / across the field / backwards, is watching the under 8s at our club. The boy is clueless has he ever been coached?

Well 24 tries in 50 club apps isn't too clueless and I suspect goes some way into explaining his inclusion.

Still made 80 metres and beat 6 defenders on Saturday - not bad when you're mostly running sideways.

How many tries in international rugby? If you listen to guys like Beshocked that was all that matters, must have suited his anti-welsh winger argument at the time, because for what it's worth May is a dangerous winger. As is Nowell.

Anti-Welsh? Not really. I think North is a very good winger but his overall try scoring record at international level isn't great.

May made 80 metres etc but failed to finish the try scoring opportunity he had. To me that stands out as a big error.

Leigh Halfpenny throwing an intercept against Italy was a poor error.

Brown is showing a very good all round game at the moment - defending well and catching the high ball well but also being very effective in attack - beating defenders - he has scored 2 tries.

by fa0019 Wed 26 Feb 2014, 10:36 am

beshocked wrote:
The Saint wrote:
EnglishReign wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
That Jonny May is also a car crash waiting to happen. The only time I have seen such a headless chicken running around in circles / across the field / backwards, is watching the under 8s at our club. The boy is clueless has he ever been coached?

Well 24 tries in 50 club apps isn't too clueless and I suspect goes some way into explaining his inclusion.

Still made 80 metres and beat 6 defenders on Saturday - not bad when you're mostly running sideways.

How many tries in international rugby? If you listen to guys like Beshocked that was all that matters, must have suited his anti-welsh winger argument at the time, because for what it's worth May is a dangerous winger. As is Nowell.

Anti-Welsh? Not really. I think North is a very good winger but his overall try scoring record at international level isn't great.

May made 80 metres etc but failed to finish the try scoring opportunity he had. To me that stands out as a big error.

Leigh Halfpenny throwing an intercept against Italy was a poor error.

Brown is showing a very good all round game at the moment - defending well and catching the high ball well but also being very effective in attack - beating defenders - he has scored 2 tries.

His record of 16 in 37 for Wales isn't record setting no... but he is a clutch player. He has record 9 is 18 (0.50 per game) games vs. the big 5 for Wales (3N, FRA & ENG) which rises to 11 in 21 if you count the lions (0.52 per game).

In all other games he has scored 7 in 19 (0.37 per game) i.e. those against Ireland, Scotland, Italy and below.

North is a top class performer and a truly world class player (unlike many who are heralded as but come the crunch actually aren't).

Compare his rate vs others notable recent top class wingers against the big 5

Bryan Habana (26 in 56 games or 0.56 tries per game)
Shane Williams (16 in 47 games or 0.34 tries per game)
Jason Robinson (6 in 30 games or 0.20 tries per game)
Jonah Lomu (18 in 40 or 0.45 tries per game)
Doug Howlett (20 in 35 or 0.57 tries per game)

No one cares if you can score 5 vs. Georgia... its whether you can score consistently against the world's best which separates the good from the great.

by slartibartfast Wed 26 Feb 2014, 10:37 am

HP created Norths try on Friday. And kicked the penalties and gathered kicks and tackled. I'm not sure what else he has to do.

Brown did the above and didn't kick.

The difference between the two is HP has been there and done it.

by Cyril Wed 26 Feb 2014, 10:39 am

Ben Cohen's try-scoring ratio against NZ, SA and Aus must have been pretty good (from memory).

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 26 Feb 2014, 10:42 am

Right theres two separate arguments here ..is Halfpenny a world class winger ...no he isnt.
Is he a fullback with a better all round game than Brown when on form ...yes he is.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 26 Feb 2014, 10:43 am

The ironic thing is that Brown scoring in New Zealand is what cost him his place in the side for 4 years

by fa0019 Wed 26 Feb 2014, 10:43 am

Cyril wrote:Ben Cohen's try-scoring ratio against NZ, SA and Aus must have been pretty good (from memory).

11 in 28 vs. the big 5 so 0.39 tries per match.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Wed 26 Feb 2014, 10:45 am

fa0019 wrote:
Cyril wrote:Ben Cohen's try-scoring ratio against NZ, SA and Aus must have been pretty good (from memory).

11 in 28 vs. the big 5 so 0.39 tries per match.

Who are the big 5 btw? Sanzars France and Engerand?
You really should include Wales and Ireland who for the last decade have been the match of England and France for the most part. Dont forget Argentina were a strong side for a few years round 07 as well.

That said it does demonstrate what a flat track bully Shane Williams was

by fa0019 Wed 26 Feb 2014, 10:50 am

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Cyril wrote:Ben Cohen's try-scoring ratio against NZ, SA and Aus must have been pretty good (from memory).

11 in 28 vs. the big 5 so 0.39 tries per match.

Who are the big 5 btw? Sanzars France and Engerand?
You really should include Wales and Ireland who for the last decade have been the match of England and France for the most part. Dont forget Argentina were a strong side for a few years round 07 as well.

That said it does demonstrate what a flat track bully Shane Williams was

over the last 20 years those are the teams who have dominated the top 5 teams in rugby. Figures would have been skewed had we included Wales, Ireland and Scotland etc when up to 10 years ago they would let in tries for fun.

Those 5 teams are very consistent hence why I think its a good marker for comparing performance vs. top class teams.

For instance the rugby stats website pick & go only counts those (+ the Lions) as tier 1 matches.

by mystiroakey Wed 26 Feb 2014, 11:10 am

May is class- luving him.

I said the same thing about brown a year or so ago, now everyone is witnessing and admitting his ubber skillz//

May is the next one to rise.

by EnglishReign Wed 26 Feb 2014, 12:08 pm

He can't make any more mistakes in the next two though. It's a shame about the non-try cos he would've put that away 100 times for Glaws...was tackled around the head though.

by flyhalffactory Wed 26 Feb 2014, 12:09 pm

fa0019 wrote:
beshocked wrote:
The Saint wrote:
EnglishReign wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
That Jonny May is also a car crash waiting to happen. The only time I have seen such a headless chicken running around in circles / across the field / backwards, is watching the under 8s at our club. The boy is clueless has he ever been coached?

Well 24 tries in 50 club apps isn't too clueless and I suspect goes some way into explaining his inclusion.

Still made 80 metres and beat 6 defenders on Saturday - not bad when you're mostly running sideways.

How many tries in international rugby? If you listen to guys like Beshocked that was all that matters, must have suited his anti-welsh winger argument at the time, because for what it's worth May is a dangerous winger. As is Nowell.

Anti-Welsh? Not really. I think North is a very good winger but his overall try scoring record at international level isn't great.

May made 80 metres etc but failed to finish the try scoring opportunity he had. To me that stands out as a big error.

Leigh Halfpenny throwing an intercept against Italy was a poor error.

Brown is showing a very good all round game at the moment - defending well and catching the high ball well but also being very effective in attack - beating defenders - he has scored 2 tries.

His record of 16 in 37 for Wales isn't record setting no... but he is a clutch player. He has record 9 is 18 (0.50 per game) games vs. the big 5 for Wales (3N, FRA & ENG) which rises to 11 in 21 if you count the lions (0.52 per game).

In all other games he has scored 7 in 19 (0.37 per game) i.e. those against Ireland, Scotland, Italy and below.

North is a top class performer and a truly world class player (unlike many who are heralded as but come the crunch actually aren't).

Compare his rate vs others notable recent top class wingers against the big 5

Bryan Habana (26 in 56 games or 0.56 tries per game)
Shane Williams (16 in 47 games or 0.34 tries per game)
Jason Robinson (6 in 30 games or 0.20 tries per game)
Jonah Lomu (18 in 40 or 0.45 tries per game)
Doug Howlett (20 in 35 or 0.57 tries per game)

No one cares if you can score 5 vs. Georgia... its whether you can score consistently against the world's best which separates the good from the great.

This beggars belief.

Even Habana had periods of up to what 8-10 games where he has not scored a try, and his tries have come off the back of consistently the worlds 2nd best side since he has been playing international rugby. Compare say Shane Williams career (in a much worse team) than Habana's SA then you could argue that if they had reversed shirts during their careers Habana might not anywhere as prolific and Williams could be something us mere mortals couldn't comprehend. There are too many variables to for your data to have any validity.

The point here is posters are suggesting that Brown is an innately better attacking FB than Halfpenny which when you base on their records on the wing or full back, there is nothing to suggest this is the case, in fact with the exception of this 6Ns Brown has failed as a try scoring offensive winger or FB.

As far as you not endorsing that Halfpenny was right up there with the best as a winger during his initial start to international rugby, well 7 tries in his first 6 club games, and 4 in 5 games including his first game when instructed to negate the threat of a 2008 Habana which (whilst not getting any opportunities himself) he did with consummate ease during the game as Habana didn't have a peep. The sixth game against France is where he had his thigh injury which effectively kept him out of the game for 5-6 months. He isn't as prolific as the above I agree but that doesn't take away his first eight months as an international winger and that was as good as anyone around at that time.

The only thing we can say for certain is during this 6Ns Brown is on fire, and Halfpenny has dropped off the pace.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 26 Feb 2014, 12:18 pm

The other thing about Brown is if his International try scoring record catches up to his very good club one (better than Halfpennu, Foden or Kearney, haven't checked the others' like Hogg's stats) then he will add to those 2 tries...

by fa0019 Wed 26 Feb 2014, 12:19 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
beshocked wrote:
The Saint wrote:
EnglishReign wrote:
dragonbreath wrote:
That Jonny May is also a car crash waiting to happen. The only time I have seen such a headless chicken running around in circles / across the field / backwards, is watching the under 8s at our club. The boy is clueless has he ever been coached?

Well 24 tries in 50 club apps isn't too clueless and I suspect goes some way into explaining his inclusion.

Still made 80 metres and beat 6 defenders on Saturday - not bad when you're mostly running sideways.

How many tries in international rugby? If you listen to guys like Beshocked that was all that matters, must have suited his anti-welsh winger argument at the time, because for what it's worth May is a dangerous winger. As is Nowell.

Anti-Welsh? Not really. I think North is a very good winger but his overall try scoring record at international level isn't great.

May made 80 metres etc but failed to finish the try scoring opportunity he had. To me that stands out as a big error.

Leigh Halfpenny throwing an intercept against Italy was a poor error.

Brown is showing a very good all round game at the moment - defending well and catching the high ball well but also being very effective in attack - beating defenders - he has scored 2 tries.

His record of 16 in 37 for Wales isn't record setting no... but he is a clutch player. He has record 9 is 18 (0.50 per game) games vs. the big 5 for Wales (3N, FRA & ENG) which rises to 11 in 21 if you count the lions (0.52 per game).

In all other games he has scored 7 in 19 (0.37 per game) i.e. those against Ireland, Scotland, Italy and below.

North is a top class performer and a truly world class player (unlike many who are heralded as but come the crunch actually aren't).

Compare his rate vs others notable recent top class wingers against the big 5

Bryan Habana (26 in 56 games or 0.56 tries per game)
Shane Williams (16 in 47 games or 0.34 tries per game)
Jason Robinson (6 in 30 games or 0.20 tries per game)
Jonah Lomu (18 in 40 or 0.45 tries per game)
Doug Howlett (20 in 35 or 0.57 tries per game)

No one cares if you can score 5 vs. Georgia... its whether you can score consistently against the world's best which separates the good from the great.

This beggars belief.

Even Habana had periods of up to what 8-10 games where he has not scored a try, and his tries have come off the back of consistently the worlds 2nd best side since he has been playing international rugby. Compare say Shane Williams career in comparably a much worse team than Habana then you could argue that if they had reversed shirts during their careers then Habana might not anyway as prolific and Williams could be something us mere mortals couldn't comprehend. There are too many variables to for your data to have any validity.

The point here is posters are suggesting that Brown is an innately better attacking FB than Halfpenny which when you base on their records on the wing or full back, there is nothing to suggest this is the case, in fact with the exception of this 6Ns Brown has failed as a try scoring offensive winger or FB.

As far as you not endorsing that Halfpenny was right up there with the best as a winger during his initial start to international rugby, well 7 tries in his first 6 club games, and 4 in 5 games including his first game when instructed to negate the threat of a 2008 Habana which (whilst not getting any opportunities himself) he did with consummate ease during the game as Habana didn't have a peep. The sixth game against France is where he had his thing injury which effectively kept him out of the game for 5-6 months. He isn't as prolific as the above I agree but that doesn't take away his first eight months as an international winger and that was as good as anyone around at that time.

The only thing we can say for certain is during this 6Ns Brown is on fire, and Halfpenny has dropped off the pace.

My point was about North's scoring.... an answer to someone suggesting whilst he was great he wasn't a top class scoring winger. My own views was that he performs when it matters more than most and its backed up by his stats of 0.52 tries per game against the traditional big 5 rugby playing nations in the pro era (the only teams who have reached a RWC final). And against his peers that rate was as near good as it got.

Halfpenny's rate of 2 in 12 matches as a winger is 0.17 tries per game against the big 5. Who cares what he did in club rugby or against Canada etc. People don't remember Jonny Wilkinson for his all action display vs. Scotland in 2006.... they remember him for the games that matter the most, the big games where his rates rose and performance skyrocketed.

As a winger Halfpenny's record is not great and they never have been.

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