Barclays Premier League 13/14 Thread Part 'x'

[mystiroakey]

First topic message reminder :

Oh you are SAF? or a Glazier?

[socal1976]

Ozil world-class this season?

I've heard nothing but criticism for the past few weeks. A good season yes, but nowhere near a world-class season unless the definition has downgraded dramatically.

Do you think Bergkamp was world class, how did he do his first 2 seasons when he went to Italy? Form is temporary, class is not.

[Hammersmith harrier]

If you don't think Rooneys a number ten then frankly your opinion isn't even worth debating.

[Duty281]

Ozil world-class this season?

I've heard nothing but criticism for the past few weeks. A good season yes, but nowhere near a world-class season unless the definition has downgraded dramatically.

Do you think Bergkamp was world class, how did he do his first 2 seasons when he went to Italy? Form is temporary, class is not.

We're not debating permanent ability/temporary ability here, you said Ozil has been world-class this season; it's something which I profoundly find amusing. Quote below:

Wait, so Ozil has been World Class this season?

Yes absolutely, he has had a rough few weeks but that doesn't change the facts.

And er...Rooney is a number ten.

[socal1976]

If you don't think Rooneys a number ten then frankly your opinion isn't even worth debating.

Feel free to stop talking to me whenever you like, talking to you is about as enjoyable as yanking my pubes out one hair at a time. Since you don't understand that Rooney is a forward and a striker why don't you take your beloved club's webpage as evidence of such.

http://www.manutd.com/en/players-and-staff/first-team/wayne-rooney.aspx

hAAAAA!! Your own team's website lists Rooney's position as striker, get over yourself, we all have.

[Hammersmith harrier]

You do know that the number ten position isn't a midfield position yes? It's a withdrawn forward role with a team, you do know that right?

[socal1976]

Why is he listed as a striker?

[socal1976]

Arsenal lists Ozil as midfielder, just like Cesc and just like Modric. Rooney is a forward, a recessed forward, but not a midfielder.

[Hammersmith harrier]

A forward and a striker are the same thing, god give me strength, we also have Van Persie listed as a striker but they play very different roles.

[socal1976]

In association football, a playmaker is a player who controls the flow of the team's offensive play, and is often involved in passing moves which lead to goals.[1]
In English football, the term overlaps somewhat with attacking midfielder, but the two types of midfielders are not necessarily the same. Several playmakers operate in a more central midfield role, alternating between attacking and playing in the midfield.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playmaker

Seems that a lot of people disagree with you that a number 10 is not a midfielder.

[socal1976]

You know talking out of your arse will fool Duty, but it doesn't change reality.

[Duty281]

Rooney is a number ten, socal. Most comfortable playing just behind the main striker - RVP for United, or Sturridge for England - but in front of the main midfield line.

It's a free role, it's called number ten.

[Duty281]

Even the Telegraph agree!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/premier-league/10681288/West-Bromwich-Albion-v-Manchester-United-live.html

From the Telegraph today:

12.15 Midfield remains a conundrum for Moyes but, ironically, that is where he has spent most of his money - and Fellaini just isn't cutting the mustard while Mata is playing wide on the left because Rooney plays the No 10 role; Mata's favoured position. Why oh why don't teams buy players that fit into a system, instead of spending for the sake of it? If you disagree with me (or agree) please drop me an email and, language permitting, I'll put it on these pages.

[Hammersmith harrier]

You can post as much garbage as you want Socal but it's not suddenly going to make Rooney any less of a number ten than he is. All the experts must be wrong as well they've spent 6 weeks trying to work out a system that suits two number tens in Mata and Rooney.

[Guest]

Takes me back to 1986 and asking my dad why Maradona wore number 10.

He wound me up by saying that he wore that number because he was better than Kenny Dalglish (who was my idol) who wore the number 7 shirt for the might 'Pool.

True story. And the scars never heal!

[socal1976]

Ok, I am not going to talk semantics with you guys. Ozil is a midfielder, Rooney is a forward. Assuming for sake of argument that Rooney and Ozil play the same position, eventhough ManU's website lists Rooney as a striker and Ozil as a midfielder; I don't see many playmakers in the world better than Ozil. Arguably, there are two or three other players that rate alongside him or above him. Hence why I called him worldclass.

[Duty281]

You know talking out of your arse will fool Duty, but it doesn't change reality.

You tried very well lad, but you didn't fool me. Nor did you change reality.

[socal1976]

Takes me back to 1986 and asking my dad why Maradona wore number 10.

He wound me up by saying that he wore that number because he was better than Kenny Dalglish (who was my idol) who wore the number 7 shirt for the might 'Pool.

True story. And the scars never heal!

And Maradonna was a midfielder and was not a forward.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Semantics is what this whole discussion is about and going missing over the most important part of the season is not something a world class player would do.

[Duty281]

Ok, I am not going to talk semantics with you guys. Ozil is a midfielder, Rooney is a forward. Assuming for sake of argument that Rooney and Ozil play the same position, eventhough ManU's website lists Rooney as a striker and Ozil as a midfielder; I don't see many playmakers in the world better than Ozil. Arguably, there are two or three other players that rate alongside him or above him. Hence why I called him worldclass.

Can't you make up your own bleedin' mind on who plays where or not?

[Hammersmith harrier]

Maradona was a second striker actually Socal, hard luck.

[Duty281]

Maradona was a second striker actually Socal, hard luck.

Is.

Playing for some club in the fifth tier of Argentine football soon, according to Wikipedia. Better be in better shape than he was the last time I saw him!

[Hammersmith harrier]

I've used the ever reliable source that is Wikipedia for that information so it must be correct.

[Guest]

Maradona was a second striker actually Socal, hard luck.

Is.

Playing for some club in the fifth tier of Argentine football soon, according to Wikipedia. Better be in better shape than he was the last time I saw him!

The best player I've ever seen Duty. Complete and utter ledge.

[socal1976]

Ok, I am not going to talk semantics with you guys. Ozil is a midfielder, Rooney is a forward. Assuming for sake of argument that Rooney and Ozil play the same position, eventhough ManU's website lists Rooney as a striker and Ozil as a midfielder; I don't see many playmakers in the world better than Ozil. Arguably, there are two or three other players that rate alongside him or above him. Hence why I called him worldclass.

Can't you make up your own bleedin' mind on who plays where or not?

Ill take United's official site and Arsenal's official site over your word and HH's anyday of the week and twice on sunday. Next you will tell me Zidane was a striker.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Probably a fair call actually, hes been hit and miss with money and isnt improving things. I do fear what happens when you get an actual bad manager though.

I'd always thought Hooper looked better this season when Elmander was up there. And really the only other option was keeping an ineffective RVW on or using Becchio, which appears to be unthinkable.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest though as I know you'll staunchly defend RVW and you know my thoughts on your defence!

I'd argue he is a bad manager, well certainly not a Premier League standard one.

He's brought good players, so I'd have no qualms with him spending money. Its just he hasn't a clue how to use em

Where do you expect to be though? Arguably, you need 8 points from 9 (or 5 games if we pretend the last four are 0 points). If you consider your expectations of this side at the start of the season, you then take into account how hard this year has been with 11 sides fighting relegation, the amount of money clubs in the bottom half spend nowadays, then its a little frustrating but not abysmal.

If you stay up, its one more season of establishing a position and one more summer where you can spend money and make the squad better. Those things have to happen incrementally.

When it comes to it, youve seen teams signing ambitious managers. Solksjaer hasnt done great shakes, Pepe Mel cant win games, Magath is mental. You wouldnt have wanted Pulis, Malky is nothing special nor particularly good.

There is a certain reality to it that isnt patronising. Norwich are not an established Premier League side. Its a ruddy tough thing to do, its an ugly thing to do at times and it requires sticking it out and being patient.

What do I expect? I expect problems to be addressed, I expect after spending the best part of £30 million to see a direction in style of play. I don't see any of this. Last season the problem was lack of goals. It's got worse this year. I don't see any significant style of play, and we've got worse in defence.

This is our third year in the league, we've survived the "second season syndrome", weve spent money to get better, we're miles worse than our last two years, in arguably a worse league (awful teams everywhere this year)

I don't know any potential replacements out there (I'd have to look into it), but I don't buy not changing a manager just cos other teams have done it and made bad appointments.

I would argue that half the problem is not that the league is awful, or worse than last year or the year before. Id say the problem is that every side has good players but not good enough teams or large enough squads for consistency. I would expect us to give some very good teams a very good game in a season, and also get trounced by them too. I think in the past few years some bad, bad sides have got relegated. This year, I think much of will hinge on obvious managerial problems, more so than any other season.

There's also the fact that none of these sides are stable. Funnily enough, the two who have broken away lately (us and Villa) have stable management, Hull are doing well because they have a manager who is confident in position and Stoke will be fine because their manager is outside of a fractious environment. You want uncertainty then keep changing managers. You want improvement then let it be steady.

You would argue that Hughton's transfer dealings have improved the squad after each summer window wouldnt you? I'd imagine you would accept that Norwich are in one of the weakest positions in the league for negotiation process too. Yet he brought in two talented and reasonably exciting young names in Fer and The Wolf. Took a punt on Redmond and has brought more out of his game than was ever on show at Brum, got Hooper in too. If he is incrementally improving your squad whilst retaining your status in arguably the most lucrative yet the hardest league in the world whilst improving your squad quality and keeping a stable environment, then hes doing a good job.

Of course, this then means change on the pitch. Naturally, he took the rubbish part of the job over from Lambert who has since proven to me that he cant fix defensive deficiencies. Hughton had to come in and do that, cos certainly you were not a team coached to defend. This year, the promise was advancement in style. Or was it retaining Premier League status? Id say the latter, because "second season syndrome" is a bit of a myth. Its correct that its hard in your second year, but it doesnt suddenly get easy in the next year. You are likely to scrap against relegation for the next three seasons if you stay up this year. This is the reality of the Premier League. How comfortable it is each year will vary. I expect us to be in and amongst it for the next two and we're a very different proposition to yourself, whilst in the same mini league.

The problem may well be your expectations rather than his performance. He's clearly still got the belief of the players, hes got a four point cushion for the drop zone. Hes not exceeding expectations. but he's not sack-worthy.

I will accept the rough sides of Sam Allardyce for the joys his side brings. When we're bad, we're really bad; when we're good, everyone just thinks we're really bad cos its Sam. But if he can keep us steady and progress the squad quality slowly, then its worth it. If you push a toddler over if he isnt walking in a straight line, he'll never get any better. Slow processes offer big rewards.

Basically, suck it up or your short termism could see you go down; and youve not exactly got a record that suggests you're a shoo-in to come back up.

[Guest]

Takes me back to 1986 and asking my dad why Maradona wore number 10.

He wound me up by saying that he wore that number because he was better than Kenny Dalglish (who was my idol) who wore the number 7 shirt for the might 'Pool.

True story. And the scars never heal!

And Maradonna was a midfielder and was not a forward.

My dad never told me that.

Thanks.

[Duty281]

Ok, I am not going to talk semantics with you guys. Ozil is a midfielder, Rooney is a forward. Assuming for sake of argument that Rooney and Ozil play the same position, eventhough ManU's website lists Rooney as a striker and Ozil as a midfielder; I don't see many playmakers in the world better than Ozil. Arguably, there are two or three other players that rate alongside him or above him. Hence why I called him worldclass.

Can't you make up your own bleedin' mind on who plays where or not?

Ill take United's official site and Arsenal's official site over your word and HH's anyday of the week and twice on sunday. Next you will tell me Zidane was a striker.

No I'm asking you to make up your own mind. As in formulate an opinion of your own.

Or is that too difficult for you?

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Wait, has this Ozil debate gone down to "This website says he plays here and this one says he plays here?"

Who plays closer positionally to who? Ozil to Rooney or Ozil to Flamini? Where are Ozil and Rooney expected to have their biggest impacts on the game?

SoCal, I have no problem with you saying Ozil is a World Class player. I believe his talent is as such. But I dont think its been consistently on show enough for this to be classed as a World Class season for him. If he is content with this season being his level of performance, Arsenal wont get value for money

[socal1976]

Ok, I am not going to talk semantics with you guys. Ozil is a midfielder, Rooney is a forward. Assuming for sake of argument that Rooney and Ozil play the same position, eventhough ManU's website lists Rooney as a striker and Ozil as a midfielder; I don't see many playmakers in the world better than Ozil. Arguably, there are two or three other players that rate alongside him or above him. Hence why I called him worldclass.

Can't you make up your own bleedin' mind on who plays where or not?

Ill take United's official site and Arsenal's official site over your word and HH's anyday of the week and twice on sunday. Next you will tell me Zidane was a striker.

No I'm asking you to make up your own mind. As in formulate an opinion of your own.

Or is that too difficult for you?

Ok was Zidane a forward or midfielder? He is a classic #10, but when I watched him play he played as a midfielder like Ozil. #10 is principally known for playmaking not goals.

[socal1976]

Wait, has this Ozil debate gone down to "This website says he plays here and this one says he plays here?"

Who plays closer positionally to who? Ozil to Rooney or Ozil to Flamini? Where are Ozil and Rooney expected to have their biggest impacts on the game?

SoCal, I have no problem with you saying Ozil is a World Class player. I believe his talent is as such. But I dont think its been consistently on show enough for this to be classed as a World Class season for him. If he is content with this season being his level of performance, Arsenal wont get value for money

It all depends on the finish of the season doesn't it dolph. He has improved the team and made his mark on this squad. But I will be happy to say he has had a poor season if Arsenal finish 4th and don't win the cup. But as I said before he is very certainly a world class playmaker.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Zidane was no number ten, for most of his career he played as a central midfield playmaker, there's a fair bit of difference. Makelele sat in front of the defence then fed Zidane who would maintain the tempo of the game.

[socal1976]

Zidane was no number ten, for most of his career he played as a central midfield playmaker, there's a fair bit of difference. Makelele sat in front of the defence then fed Zidane who would maintain the tempo of the game.

Which is basically what Ozil does. So Zidane is more comparable position wise to Ozil than Rooney, thanks for making my point.

[Guest]

Zidane was no number ten, for most of his career he played as a central midfield playmaker, there's a fair bit of difference. Makelele sat in front of the defence then fed Zidane who would maintain the tempo of the game.

Which is basically what Ozil does. So Zidane is more comparable position wise to Ozil than Rooney, thanks for making my point.

Eh?

[mystiroakey]

Ozil world-class this season?

I've heard nothing but criticism for the past few weeks. A good season yes, but nowhere near a world-class season unless the definition has downgraded dramatically.

yeah lol- i take it football now has a 2 mile square pitch and has become 100 a side!


Ozil wouldn't get in my world class 22 squad this season put it that way.

Last season yes he would.

SO now I have mentioned that one- shall we have the periodic semantic argument over what world class means ?

[Duty281]

Bale in 2012-13. That season was world-class.

Suarez this season is world-class. Hazard, arguably, near that mark as well.

Ozil? No chance.

[mystiroakey]

Zidanwe was very much a Classic CM with a long leash as all world class players get. And when i mean world class i mean it in an even bigger sense- Zidane is top 5 imo all time footballers.

Rooney has played a variety of roles in his time. He has played the striker role and scored over 30 goals a season , but his usual role is the one in front of the cm and before the striker- The classic no 10. But he has allways been also given a free role as well, he also has a long leash as you would expect. Because he is a good player and likes to dig in all over the pitch..

However I would tighten rooneys leash a bit if i was Roy or Moyes to try and get the best out of other players

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Zidane was no number ten, for most of his career he played as a central midfield playmaker, there's a fair bit of difference. Makelele sat in front of the defence then fed Zidane who would maintain the tempo of the game.

Which is basically what Ozil does. So Zidane is more comparable position wise to Ozil than Rooney, thanks for making my point.

Eh?

Ozil doesn't dictate the tempo of the game lol

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Probably a fair call actually, hes been hit and miss with money and isnt improving things. I do fear what happens when you get an actual bad manager though.

I'd always thought Hooper looked better this season when Elmander was up there. And really the only other option was keeping an ineffective RVW on or using Becchio, which appears to be unthinkable.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest though as I know you'll staunchly defend RVW and you know my thoughts on your defence!

I'd argue he is a bad manager, well certainly not a Premier League standard one.

He's brought good players, so I'd have no qualms with him spending money. Its just he hasn't a clue how to use em

Where do you expect to be though? Arguably, you need 8 points from 9 (or 5 games if we pretend the last four are 0 points). If you consider your expectations of this side at the start of the season, you then take into account how hard this year has been with 11 sides fighting relegation, the amount of money clubs in the bottom half spend nowadays, then its a little frustrating but not abysmal.

If you stay up, its one more season of establishing a position and one more summer where you can spend money and make the squad better. Those things have to happen incrementally.

When it comes to it, youve seen teams signing ambitious managers. Solksjaer hasnt done great shakes, Pepe Mel cant win games, Magath is mental. You wouldnt have wanted Pulis, Malky is nothing special nor particularly good.

There is a certain reality to it that isnt patronising. Norwich are not an established Premier League side. Its a ruddy tough thing to do, its an ugly thing to do at times and it requires sticking it out and being patient.

What do I expect? I expect problems to be addressed, I expect after spending the best part of £30 million to see a direction in style of play. I don't see any of this. Last season the problem was lack of goals. It's got worse this year. I don't see any significant style of play, and we've got worse in defence.

This is our third year in the league, we've survived the "second season syndrome", weve spent money to get better, we're miles worse than our last two years, in arguably a worse league (awful teams everywhere this year)

I don't know any potential replacements out there (I'd have to look into it), but I don't buy not changing a manager just cos other teams have done it and made bad appointments.

I would argue that half the problem is not that the league is awful, or worse than last year or the year before. Id say the problem is that every side has good players but not good enough teams or large enough squads for consistency. I would expect us to give some very good teams a very good game in a season, and also get trounced by them too. I think in the past few years some bad, bad sides have got relegated. This year, I think much of will hinge on obvious managerial problems, more so than any other season.

There's also the fact that none of these sides are stable. Funnily enough, the two who have broken away lately (us and Villa) have stable management, Hull are doing well because they have a manager who is confident in position and Stoke will be fine because their manager is outside of a fractious environment. You want uncertainty then keep changing managers. You want improvement then let it be steady.

You would argue that Hughton's transfer dealings have improved the squad after each summer window wouldnt you? I'd imagine you would accept that Norwich are in one of the weakest positions in the league for negotiation process too. Yet he brought in two talented and reasonably exciting young names in Fer and The Wolf. Took a punt on Redmond and has brought more out of his game than was ever on show at Brum, got Hooper in too. If he is incrementally improving your squad whilst retaining your status in arguably the most lucrative yet the hardest league in the world whilst improving your squad quality and keeping a stable environment, then hes doing a good job.

Of course, this then means change on the pitch. Naturally, he took the rubbish part of the job over from Lambert who has since proven to me that he cant fix defensive deficiencies. Hughton had to come in and do that, cos certainly you were not a team coached to defend. This year, the promise was advancement in style. Or was it retaining Premier League status? Id say the latter, because "second season syndrome" is a bit of a myth. Its correct that its hard in your second year, but it doesnt suddenly get easy in the next year. You are likely to scrap against relegation for the next three seasons if you stay up this year. This is the reality of the Premier League. How comfortable it is each year will vary. I expect us to be in and amongst it for the next two and we're a very different proposition to yourself, whilst in the same mini league.

The problem may well be your expectations rather than his performance. He's clearly still got the belief of the players, hes got a four point cushion for the drop zone. Hes not exceeding expectations. but he's not sack-worthy.

I will accept the rough sides of Sam Allardyce for the joys his side brings. When we're bad, we're really bad; when we're good, everyone just thinks we're really bad cos its Sam. But if he can keep us steady and progress the squad quality slowly, then its worth it. If you push a toddler over if he isnt walking in a straight line, he'll never get any better. Slow processes offer big rewards.

Basically, suck it up or your short termism could see you go down; and youve not exactly got a record that suggests you're a shoo-in to come back up.

You're speaking as if were shoe ins for survival here, we are certainly not. We've got only two more games where I'd feel confident of a win in with Sunderland and WBA at home, and even then I'm not confident due to our recent results against teams around us (lost to Fulham, Cardiff, west ham, villa, drew with Stoke, only one we beat was Hull)

I accept he won't go now, but he has to go in the summer. I know he had to fix the defence, but has he really done that? Debatable. He inherited a team that could score goals regularly and transformed them, with the aid of £30 odd million into one that's averaging considerably less than a goal a game. Less than a goal a game. Its so demoralising turning up week in week out, knowing you're not going to be entertained, and away games are just a huge no no

I said earlier he's brought in good players, but what's the point in bringing in good players if you don't fit your system around them or know how to use em? I'd rather he kept Kei frickin Kamara cos at least he knew how to use him

I can accept rough sides of teams, it wasn't always exactly plain sailing under Lambert with the leaky defence, but I've long ago lost my will with the lack of goals under Hughton. I don't see no direction like there is with a Big Sam side, there is certainly no progress shown whatsoever here, and from what I've heard its hardly a happy camp at Colney right now either.

[Guest]

Only just seen the United game from yesterday. RVP off in the summer?

We actually looked a better team when he went off, granted West Brom aren't the best opposition but Welbecks goal was brilliant from United and a sign that the old team is still in there somewhere

Also just seen the papers and Cleverley being offered a new deal..........oh dear

[mystiroakey]

Its tough to tell how good you are again v WBA mate- what is it 1 win in 19.. worst team in the PL over the last 20 games.

But it certainly looked more fluid..

[Hammersmith harrier]

Am I losing the plot here or something, Ozil is nothing like Zidane. Zidane played the classic 90's attacking midfield role like Scholes or Nedved, a dictator and creator in one, a position that no longer really exists.

[Duty281]

Am I losing the plot here or something, Ozil is nothing like Zidane. Zidane played the classic 90's attacking midfield role like Scholes or Nedved, a dictator and creator in one, a position that no longer really exists.

I'm equally as bewildered. I mean, I don't really remember Zidane much (I was 10 when he retired) but I'm pretty sure he didn't play the same type of role as Ozil.

Still, according to the same poster, Ozil is having a world-class season and Rooney isn't a number ten.

[mystiroakey]

no you are not losing the plot. But i do sympathise with people getting confused by players positions. As it has evolved so much. Systems and positions are so varied these days, the classic cm and the classic striker are dieing out.

[Hammersmith harrier]

I may be a nostalgic about the late 90's but the midfielders around today can't hold a candle to that lot, they didn't have specific roles that they wouldn't waver from.

Imagine the lightweight Barcelona midfield going up against the heavyweight Ajax duo from 95 of Davids and Seedorf, the game has changed a bit in the past 20 years and player roles definitely have.

Davids, Seedorf, Nedved, Scholes, Vieira, Keane and Zidane would have a field day right now.

[mystiroakey]

So would the Refs Hammy!

[Hammersmith harrier]

Just have Collina ref every game, sorted.

[mystiroakey]

I cant really remember - but those are power house midfielder s.. Were they known as a bit sisyfied compared to the players from 20 years before them as well.

If this trend continues we will end up with ballet dancers playing football!

[Hammersmith harrier]

I'm not too sure actually Mysti but I don't think they'd be considered lightweight compared to say Charlton, the premier midfielder of the 60's for instance.

Toure stands out today but he'd just be one of many in the 90's, would love to build a time machine and see what would happen, backing the 90's myself.

[mystiroakey]

I suppose they were probably just as large and tough (and probably a a lot fitter due to evolution in sports science and the pro game) but the reffing just got a lot tougher.

[Champagne_Socialist]

I'm equally as bewildered. I mean, I don't really remember Zidane much (I was 10 when he retired) but I'm pretty sure he didn't play the same type of role as Ozil.

Still, according to the same poster, Ozil is having a world-class season and Rooney isn't a number ten.

Well what is your definition of a world class season? Boils back down to stats and if Ozil finishes the season as the player with the most assists in the epl and 10+ goals then that would be evidence that his season has been world class.

Also the comparisons between rooney and ozil are pointless. You can't say Rooney is a better player than Ozil because of this season. Ozil has just moved to a new league in a new country with a new team, he has to adapt whilst rooney has played at united for 10 years. If you are going to compare the two wh not compare the last 5 years and you will see that they are both roughly equal, Ozil has more assists, rooney hs more goals, ozil has performed on the international stage whilst rooney has not.

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