Barclays Premier League 13/14 Thread Part 'x'

[mystiroakey]

First topic message reminder :

Oh you are SAF? or a Glazier?

[Hammersmith harrier]

Drop the stats garbage for christ sake.

In the 2010-11 Berbatov scored 20 goals in the league, a world class season according to the stats but the stats don't tell you that he scored in only 11 of the 32 games he started, that is context.

As for comparing Rooney and Ozil, we're comparing them THIS season, not last season, not three years ago but the 2013-14 premier league season nothing that has gone before has any impact.

[Champagne_Socialist]

Only just seen the United game from yesterday. RVP off in the summer?

We actually looked a better team when he went off, granted West Brom aren't the best opposition but Welbecks goal was brilliant from United and a sign that the old team is still in there somewhere

Also just seen the papers and Cleverley being offered a new deal..........oh dear

Yep I agree, RVP looks like he will leave in the summer. He has no loyalty to UTD so why would he stay there if you have no CL and he just looks unhappy this season.

Maybe a return to Arsenal, who knows.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Didn't Ozil get booed midweek?

Ozil is a great player, but you can't drift out of a season for a few months and have had a world class year.

[mystiroakey]

Some reading for the stat minded

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/mar/09/premier-league-football-clubs-computer-analysts-managers-data-winning

[CFCNick]

Using stats Lampard is the most world class attacking midfielder in the world. He's scored at least 10 goals a season for 12 years (scored 27 in 09-10) and before AVB he started 99% of games.

I know he hasn't been world class since 04-07 but it's been a pleasure watching Frank in blue.

[mystiroakey]

You are not really utilising the stats and enough stats correctly though to come up with that. However he would still be well up there anyway

[Champagne_Socialist]

Sherwood's rant is pretty funny, shocking that Spurs display. Can't see him staying in that job, Van Gaal possibly to replace him. Can easily see United finishing 5th now with ease & getting into Europa League.

Chelsea 9 points clear of City....wow. Huge pressure on City to deliver now.

The question is do utd want the europa league? it is so many games in some very far countries and the europa league won't help them attract big name players like the champions league will.

You don't watch the Europa League do you. Only 9 out of the last 32 come from countries I'd call far trips. Plus they'll have more difficulty attracting players with zero European football.

16 teams in the group stages were from 'far' away playes such as kazakstan, russia, israel, croatia etc etc, That is a lot of teams from far places that could end up in your group. Get two far teams and you find your team having to travel to Russia, and kazakstan on a thursday and then travel back to england for an epl game on the sunday. In addition the games are played on a Thursday which messes up your next epl game. The Europa league will offer no incentive for players to join man u, not the calibre of players man u will want anyway.

The Europa league is something Man U should not be trying to get, it will mess them up in the 2014/2015 seson.

[Champagne_Socialist]

Using stats Lampard is the most world class attacking midfielder in the world. He's scored at least 10 goals a season for 12 years (scored 27 in 09-10) and before AVB he started 99% of games.

I know he hasn't been world class since 04-07 but it's been a pleasure watching Frank in blue.

lampard has been an amazing player over the years. Think his best season was 04/05 where he came 2nd in the world player of the year award only coming 2nd to ronaldinhio.

[CFCNick]

Sherwood's rant is pretty funny, shocking that Spurs display. Can't see him staying in that job, Van Gaal possibly to replace him. Can easily see United finishing 5th now with ease & getting into Europa League.

Chelsea 9 points clear of City....wow. Huge pressure on City to deliver now.

The question is do utd want the europa league? it is so many games in some very far countries and the europa league won't help them attract big name players like the champions league will.

You don't watch the Europa League do you. Only 9 out of the last 32 come from countries I'd call far trips. Plus they'll have more difficulty attracting players with zero European football.

16 teams in the group stages were from 'far' away playes such as kazakstan, russia, israel, croatia etc etc, That is a lot of teams from far places that could end up in your group. Get two far teams and you find your team having to travel to Russia, and kazakstan on a thursday and then travel back to england for an epl game on the sunday. In addition the games are played on a Thursday which messes up your next epl game. The Europa league will offer no incentive for players to join man u, not the calibre of players man u will want anyway.

The Europa league is something Man U should not be trying to get, it will mess them up in the 2014/2015 seson.

Going to Russia, Romania and Czech Rep didn't hurt Chelsea, we finished 3rd but were 6th winning the Champions League. It never really hurt Atletico or Sevilla.

If you actually try to win it it doesn't hurt your league form. If you fly out to Russia feeling like it's a waste of time and you don't want to be there then you'll come back with the same bad attitude probably after a crap performance.

[Champagne_Socialist]

Didn't Ozil get booed midweek?

Ozil is a great player, but you can't drift out of a season for a few months and have had a world class year.

The whole team were booed. Ozil had a good game creating an assist for the goal. But I think German fans were unhappy with the whole team who struggled to beat chille

[Champagne_Socialist]

Sherwood's rant is pretty funny, shocking that Spurs display. Can't see him staying in that job, Van Gaal possibly to replace him. Can easily see United finishing 5th now with ease & getting into Europa League.

Chelsea 9 points clear of City....wow. Huge pressure on City to deliver now.

The question is do utd want the europa league? it is so many games in some very far countries and the europa league won't help them attract big name players like the champions league will.

You don't watch the Europa League do you. Only 9 out of the last 32 come from countries I'd call far trips. Plus they'll have more difficulty attracting players with zero European football.

16 teams in the group stages were from 'far' away playes such as kazakstan, russia, israel, croatia etc etc, That is a lot of teams from far places that could end up in your group. Get two far teams and you find your team having to travel to Russia, and kazakstan on a thursday and then travel back to england for an epl game on the sunday. In addition the games are played on a Thursday which messes up your next epl game. The Europa league will offer no incentive for players to join man u, not the calibre of players man u will want anyway.

The Europa league is something Man U should not be trying to get, it will mess them up in the 2014/2015 seson.

Going to Russia, Romania and Czech Rep didn't hurt Chelsea, we finished 3rd but were 6th winning the Champions League. It never really hurt Atletico or Sevilla.

If you actually try to win it it doesn't hurt your league form. If you fly out to Russia feeling like it's a waste of time and you don't want to be there then you'll come back with the same bad attitude probably after a crap performance.

athletico and seville play in a different league. Also Chelsea entered the Europa league in the knock out phases so had less games to play.

[Champagne_Socialist]

Also looking at Chelsea's results last season they did not perform great in the epl after they played/before they played in the europa league.

Drew with sparta prague 1-1 on the 21st feb and then lost to man city 2-0 on the 24th.

Drew with Man U 2-2 on the 10th march before playing bucharest on the 14th

Lost to rubin kazan on the 11th april 3-2 before losing to man city on the 14th.

Drew with liverpool on the 21st before playing basle on the 25th.

As you can see the europa league for chelsea meant that they were travelling to far countries to play a mid week game of football only a few days before key matches in the epl.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Chelsea were well out of the running by then so didn't need to put full effort into those games, again it's about context and i'm pretty sure that 2-2 draw with us was in the FA Cup.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Using stats Lampard is the most world class attacking midfielder in the world. He's scored at least 10 goals a season for 12 years (scored 27 in 09-10) and before AVB he started 99% of games.

I know he hasn't been world class since 04-07 but it's been a pleasure watching Frank in blue.

It's all about context isn't it Nick, who were those goals against, what was the match situation and how were they scored. It's all well and good scoring five times in one game but if it's in a 7-1 win then it means less than scoring once in a 1-0 or a 2-1 win.

[kingraf]

I thought Lampard was world class in 2009-10... Thought he was the best player in EPL in fact. Had a ridiculous season, Nearly got himself the 20-20 (20 goals, 20 assists). Quite amusing how he lost the WFA to Rooney because "Rooney was doing it on his own, and Lamps had help" that season, given Chelsea's struggles the following year, with Lamps out for portions of it.

[Duty281]

I'm equally as bewildered. I mean, I don't really remember Zidane much (I was 10 when he retired) but I'm pretty sure he didn't play the same type of role as Ozil.

Still, according to the same poster, Ozil is having a world-class season and Rooney isn't a number ten.

Well what is your definition of a world class season? Boils back down to stats and if Ozil finishes the season as the player with the most assists in the epl and 10+ goals then that would be evidence that his season has been world class.

Also the comparisons between rooney and ozil are pointless. You can't say Rooney is a better player than Ozil because of this season. Ozil has just moved to a new league in a new country with a new team, he has to adapt whilst rooney has played at united for 10 years. If you are going to compare the two wh not compare the last 5 years and you will see that they are both roughly equal, Ozil has more assists, rooney hs more goals, ozil has performed on the international stage whilst rooney has not.

My definition of a world-class season? Bale last season, or Suarez so far this season.

Something that Ozil hasn't approached; like I say, a couple of quiet months until yesterday.

And I'm not debating whether or not Rooney is better than Ozil, I'm just simply stating that, presently, Rooney is a number ten.

[CFCNick]

Using stats Lampard is the most world class attacking midfielder in the world. He's scored at least 10 goals a season for 12 years (scored 27 in 09-10) and before AVB he started 99% of games.

I know he hasn't been world class since 04-07 but it's been a pleasure watching Frank in blue.

It's all about context isn't it Nick, who were those goals against, what was the match situation and how were they scored. It's all well and good scoring five times in one game but if it's in a 7-1 win then it means less than scoring once in a 1-0 or a 2-1 win.

I'm not actually saying that though. I'm just saying basing players class on goals like someone did with Ozil.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Probably a fair call actually, hes been hit and miss with money and isnt improving things. I do fear what happens when you get an actual bad manager though.

I'd always thought Hooper looked better this season when Elmander was up there. And really the only other option was keeping an ineffective RVW on or using Becchio, which appears to be unthinkable.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest though as I know you'll staunchly defend RVW and you know my thoughts on your defence!

I'd argue he is a bad manager, well certainly not a Premier League standard one.

He's brought good players, so I'd have no qualms with him spending money. Its just he hasn't a clue how to use em

Where do you expect to be though? Arguably, you need 8 points from 9 (or 5 games if we pretend the last four are 0 points). If you consider your expectations of this side at the start of the season, you then take into account how hard this year has been with 11 sides fighting relegation, the amount of money clubs in the bottom half spend nowadays, then its a little frustrating but not abysmal.

If you stay up, its one more season of establishing a position and one more summer where you can spend money and make the squad better. Those things have to happen incrementally.

When it comes to it, youve seen teams signing ambitious managers. Solksjaer hasnt done great shakes, Pepe Mel cant win games, Magath is mental. You wouldnt have wanted Pulis, Malky is nothing special nor particularly good.

There is a certain reality to it that isnt patronising. Norwich are not an established Premier League side. Its a ruddy tough thing to do, its an ugly thing to do at times and it requires sticking it out and being patient.

What do I expect? I expect problems to be addressed, I expect after spending the best part of £30 million to see a direction in style of play. I don't see any of this. Last season the problem was lack of goals. It's got worse this year. I don't see any significant style of play, and we've got worse in defence.

This is our third year in the league, we've survived the "second season syndrome", weve spent money to get better, we're miles worse than our last two years, in arguably a worse league (awful teams everywhere this year)

I don't know any potential replacements out there (I'd have to look into it), but I don't buy not changing a manager just cos other teams have done it and made bad appointments.

I would argue that half the problem is not that the league is awful, or worse than last year or the year before. Id say the problem is that every side has good players but not good enough teams or large enough squads for consistency. I would expect us to give some very good teams a very good game in a season, and also get trounced by them too. I think in the past few years some bad, bad sides have got relegated. This year, I think much of will hinge on obvious managerial problems, more so than any other season.

There's also the fact that none of these sides are stable. Funnily enough, the two who have broken away lately (us and Villa) have stable management, Hull are doing well because they have a manager who is confident in position and Stoke will be fine because their manager is outside of a fractious environment. You want uncertainty then keep changing managers. You want improvement then let it be steady.

You would argue that Hughton's transfer dealings have improved the squad after each summer window wouldnt you? I'd imagine you would accept that Norwich are in one of the weakest positions in the league for negotiation process too. Yet he brought in two talented and reasonably exciting young names in Fer and The Wolf. Took a punt on Redmond and has brought more out of his game than was ever on show at Brum, got Hooper in too. If he is incrementally improving your squad whilst retaining your status in arguably the most lucrative yet the hardest league in the world whilst improving your squad quality and keeping a stable environment, then hes doing a good job.

Of course, this then means change on the pitch. Naturally, he took the rubbish part of the job over from Lambert who has since proven to me that he cant fix defensive deficiencies. Hughton had to come in and do that, cos certainly you were not a team coached to defend. This year, the promise was advancement in style. Or was it retaining Premier League status? Id say the latter, because "second season syndrome" is a bit of a myth. Its correct that its hard in your second year, but it doesnt suddenly get easy in the next year. You are likely to scrap against relegation for the next three seasons if you stay up this year. This is the reality of the Premier League. How comfortable it is each year will vary. I expect us to be in and amongst it for the next two and we're a very different proposition to yourself, whilst in the same mini league.

The problem may well be your expectations rather than his performance. He's clearly still got the belief of the players, hes got a four point cushion for the drop zone. Hes not exceeding expectations. but he's not sack-worthy.

I will accept the rough sides of Sam Allardyce for the joys his side brings. When we're bad, we're really bad; when we're good, everyone just thinks we're really bad cos its Sam. But if he can keep us steady and progress the squad quality slowly, then its worth it. If you push a toddler over if he isnt walking in a straight line, he'll never get any better. Slow processes offer big rewards.

Basically, suck it up or your short termism could see you go down; and youve not exactly got a record that suggests you're a shoo-in to come back up.

You're speaking as if were shoe ins for survival here, we are certainly not. We've got only two more games where I'd feel confident of a win in with Sunderland and WBA at home, and even then I'm not confident due to our recent results against teams around us (lost to Fulham, Cardiff, west ham, villa, drew with Stoke, only one we beat was Hull)

I accept he won't go now, but he has to go in the summer. I know he had to fix the defence, but has he really done that? Debatable. He inherited a team that could score goals regularly and transformed them, with the aid of £30 odd million into one that's averaging considerably less than a goal a game. Less than a goal a game. Its so demoralising turning up week in week out, knowing you're not going to be entertained, and away games are just a huge no no

I said earlier he's brought in good players, but what's the point in bringing in good players if you don't fit your system around them or know how to use em? I'd rather he kept Kei frickin Kamara cos at least he knew how to use him

I can accept rough sides of teams, it wasn't always exactly plain sailing under Lambert with the leaky defence, but I've long ago lost my will with the lack of goals under Hughton. I don't see no direction like there is with a Big Sam side, there is certainly no progress shown whatsoever here, and from what I've heard its hardly a happy camp at Colney right now either.

Well, he fixed the defence by fixing how the whole team played. I insist Lambert would have taken you down, hes a manager who appears to be invisible to any deficiencies.

I dont think you're nailed on to survive at all, but I'd rather be Norwich than any of the other teams below you. Fixtures or not, you've got less points to get than them to survive. The next five games are all winnable. Not easy, but all winnable.

Now, entertainment-wise I don't think hes added glamour. But hes had the harder job to do than Lambert. He's keeping you in the division so far too, probably sacrificing a lot of style to keep you up. The style is part of the ongoing process. Money is what it takes for most sides, survival gives that money. It took Swansea a long time to become the team they are, from a rather unique position as a club too.

If your ambition this year was close to 10th, your expectations would be more realistic and be maybe 12-14th. Which to me would make staying in the league "fine". To keep taking those steps of improvement every year, you have to stay in the league.

Its a very patient game. If he cant get any more out of you in a year, then you thank him for the stability and for the improved squad, but take the risk. Kind of like Stoke did with Pulis. Which means you might get Mark Hughes in and Nick will explode.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Using stats Lampard is the most world class attacking midfielder in the world. He's scored at least 10 goals a season for 12 years (scored 27 in 09-10) and before AVB he started 99% of games.

I know he hasn't been world class since 04-07 but it's been a pleasure watching Frank in blue.

It's all about context isn't it Nick, who were those goals against, what was the match situation and how were they scored. It's all well and good scoring five times in one game but if it's in a 7-1 win then it means less than scoring once in a 1-0 or a 2-1 win.

I'm not actually saying that though. I'm just saying basing players class on goals like someone did with Ozil.

I'm agreeing with you Nick, there was a time when Lampards ability back up his stats from around 06-10 after which his performances have dropped but on their own they mean nothing.

[CFCNick]

Also looking at Chelsea's results last season they did not perform great in the epl after they played/before they played in the europa league.

Drew with sparta prague 1-1 on the 21st feb and then lost to man city 2-0 on the 24th.

Drew with Man U 2-2 on the 10th march before playing bucharest on the 14th

Lost to rubin kazan on the 11th april 3-2 before losing to man city on the 14th.

Drew with liverpool on the 21st before playing basle on the 25th.

As you can see the europa league for chelsea meant that they were travelling to far countries to play a mid week game of football only a few days before key matches in the epl.

We came from 2-0 down against United.

Also you're picking out games against the top teams. After the Basel games we best Swansea and United. We had a 2-1 loss to City in the cup but that also had dodgy reffing and Aguero should have been sent off for stamping.

Also I mentioned Atletico and Sevilla because like Chelsea and United they are Western clubs that also had to travel long disarmed and play La Liga games at the weekend.

[Hammersmith harrier]

The thing is it's further Greece than it is to somewhere like Zagreb while Milan is hardly much different. Unless you're travelling to Russia the time difference is pretty negligible.

[Guest]

Probably the best big game player I have ever seen in my life is Didier Drogba and I have no idea where he sits in the stats table.

What I do know is when the chips were down and Chelsea needed a boost he was your man. Scored in all but one of his finals I believe?

[CFCNick]

Probably the best big game player I have ever seen in my life is Didier Drogba and I have no idea where he sits in the stats table.

What I do know is when the chips were down and Chelsea needed a boost he was your man. Scored in all but one of his finals I believe?

Only final he didn't score in was UCL 2008. He even scored the winner in the Turkish Super Cup in August.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Yup, Didier just grew into the occasion. In a thoroughly unlikeable team, and a man who did so many unlikeable things, yet Drogba was just insane in those big games, so much so that I miss watching him in the Prem still.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Probably the best big game player I have ever seen in my life is Didier Drogba and I have no idea where he sits in the stats table.

What I do know is when the chips were down and Chelsea needed a boost he was your man. Scored in all but one of his finals I believe?

You obviously never saw Grant Holt in the derby games buh

[CFCNick]

Drogba     

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdSOI3iRils

[Hammersmith harrier]

The amount of goals Drogba scored in finals is a stat with context, says a lot about Ferdinand back in 08 that he kept him under wraps in that final.

[CFCNick]

Torres has scored in every final he's started (50% in finals he actually played in) at club level........   

[Guest]

Drogba     

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdSOI3iRils

Cracking little watch that   

What.A.Legend.

[CFCNick]

His family still live in Cobham.

[socal1976]

I can concede that Ozil has had a difficult season adjusting to a new league, new team, and new style of play. I think even the man himself would concede this isn't his best season. But that doesn't change his status as one of if not the best playmakers in the world. And a great deal depends on how Arsenal finish and what Ozil does to get us there. If we win the FA cup and finish higher in the standings than last season and Ozil plays his part in being the catalyst he could yet have a world class season. He was playing great in the first couple of months and then hit a rough patch.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Not sure thats how it works. The end result of a team doesnt completely define a players season. Ronny Johnson probably wasnt World Class when United won the treble.

[socal1976]

Not sure thats how it works. The end result of a team doesnt completely define a players season. Ronny Johnson probably wasnt World Class when United won the treble.

The guy has been the one constant for us and the key playmaker on the team. Did Ronny johnson lead United in assists and was he one of the treble winning sides leaders in caps? He was the one big money signing who was brought in to be the catalyst to win trophies. If we win the FA cup and finish higher in league than last year along with taking a major trophy after a 9 year drought then he has been an impact player. But that is still a big if, I don't care if City are out any team can still put you out.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Ozil's price tag has nothing to do with his performances.

Do you think Ronny Johnson lead in assists?

Your arguments dont hold up. Its about his performances. Suarez could and most likely will end the season without a medal.

[socal1976]

Ozil's price tag has nothing to do with his performances.

Do you think Ronny Johnson lead in assists?

Your arguments dont hold up. Its about his performances. Suarez could and most likely will end the season without a medal.

No, I am pointing out how Ozil has been a key performer for our side while Johnson was not a key figure for the treble winning side obviously you didn't get the sarcasm. All I remember is people saying over and over again how this signing will be deemed a success if Ozil helps Arsenal win trophies and that will prove if this is a good signing. Now if he leads Arsenal to a major trophy, as one of our star players in his first season, you guys want to move the goal posts and say that it isn't the trophy that matters but his individual stats.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I hoped you werent being sarcastic, because if you were it was stupid and only pertains to my point further. He played in the Champions League final. In their treble winning season. So obviously was a reasonable part of their success. By your standards, the end result means he had a World Class year.

No, that isnt the argument. It is his personal performances we are talking about. His signing could be successful without him having a World Class season personally. He can be a good signing without having a World Class season. I dont get what you dont understand about this?!

[Hammersmith harrier]

It's his individual PERFORMANCES that matter, why are you finding that so difficult?

[Hammersmith harrier]

Another comparison, Man United went three years without winning the league title we then bought Michael Carrick in 2006 and went on to win it three times in a row as well as the champions league. World class player or just a good player?

[socal1976]

All I remember was everyone and their mother telling me how Ozil's success would be measured by ending Arsenal's trophy drought, now HH the famous critic of stats and proponent of it is all about the trophies is moving the goal posts. Ozil leads our team in assists, key passes, and has scored some big goals over the course of the season as well. All in a season that he is adjusting to a new league and a new team; if we win the FA cup he will be a big part of it (certainly bigger part than Carrick and Ronny Johnson were to those trophies). And lets be clear this is a hypothetical with all due respect the teams left in this tournament can still put us out. But that doesn't keep me from pointing out your hypocrisy and the subtle moving of the goal posts.

[Hammersmith harrier]

You seem to make up things that i've not said.

The Carrick comparison is a fair one because it falls in line with your theory that Ozil will have had a world class season if Arsenal win something. I never waver from my view that the only way to judge players is to watch them, i've never said he'll be judged on trophies or league position but his personal performances only.

[GSC]

Can you two go into a closet and get it over with please

[kingraf]

Ozil has been good in spurts, world class? Yes. World Class season? Not quite, but with 10 PL games to go, and a possible trophy, it could go that way. Not far off, for my money.

[Champagne_Socialist]

Also looking at Chelsea's results last season they did not perform great in the epl after they played/before they played in the europa league.

Drew with sparta prague 1-1 on the 21st feb and then lost to man city 2-0 on the 24th.

Drew with Man U 2-2 on the 10th march before playing bucharest on the 14th

Lost to rubin kazan on the 11th april 3-2 before losing to man city on the 14th.

Drew with liverpool on the 21st before playing basle on the 25th.

As you can see the europa league for chelsea meant that they were travelling to far countries to play a mid week game of football only a few days before key matches in the epl.

We came from 2-0 down against United.

Also you're picking out games against the top teams. After the Basel games we best Swansea and United. We had a 2-1 loss to City in the cup but that also had dodgy reffing and Aguero should have been sent off for stamping.

Also I mentioned Atletico and Sevilla because like Chelsea and United they are Western clubs that also had to travel long disarmed and play La Liga games at the weekend.

I'm merely highlighting how the europa league costs teams in the epl. Look at chelsea, you had 4 key games against top teams a mere 3 days after playing away in romania in the europa league, and surprise surprise you failed to win those games.

Europa league will have no benefit for Man u

[Champagne_Socialist]

All I remember was everyone and their mother telling me how Ozil's success would be measured by ending Arsenal's trophy drought, now HH the famous critic of stats and proponent of it is all about the trophies is moving the goal posts. Ozil leads our team in assists, key passes, and has scored some big goals over the course of the season as well. All in a season that he is adjusting to a new league and a new team; if we win the FA cup he will be a big part of it (certainly bigger part than Carrick and Ronny Johnson were to those trophies). And lets be clear this is a hypothetical with all due respect the teams left in this tournament can still put us out. But that doesn't keep me from pointing out your hypocrisy and the subtle moving of the goal posts.

exactly, we bought ozil to win trophies and challenge for the epl, guess what, we are challenging for the epl and should win the fa cup so Ozil by those standards has been a success. The fact he is also top of the assists and key passes and 3rd top goal scorer for us also highlights just how important he has been for us.

[Champagne_Socialist]

I'm equally as bewildered. I mean, I don't really remember Zidane much (I was 10 when he retired) but I'm pretty sure he didn't play the same type of role as Ozil.

Still, according to the same poster, Ozil is having a world-class season and Rooney isn't a number ten.

Well what is your definition of a world class season? Boils back down to stats and if Ozil finishes the season as the player with the most assists in the epl and 10+ goals then that would be evidence that his season has been world class.

Also the comparisons between rooney and ozil are pointless. You can't say Rooney is a better player than Ozil because of this season. Ozil has just moved to a new league in a new country with a new team, he has to adapt whilst rooney has played at united for 10 years. If you are going to compare the two wh not compare the last 5 years and you will see that they are both roughly equal, Ozil has more assists, rooney hs more goals, ozil has performed on the international stage whilst rooney has not.

My definition of a world-class season? Bale last season, or Suarez so far this season.

Something that Ozil hasn't approached; like I say, a couple of quiet months until yesterday.

And I'm not debating whether or not Rooney is better than Ozil, I'm just simply stating that, presently, Rooney is a number ten.

But that is just your definition of world class, by those standards no one will be world class in the epl this year because no one has played as well as suarez so no one can play to his standards whioch is the standard you think is world class.

If Ozil finishes the season with 20+ assists, 10+ goals and top of the key passes chart for Arsenal (or roughly with those stats) then he will have had a world class season.

[Duty281]

Well the whole point of being world-class is that you're one of the best in the world or, indeed, the best. And it is something that only the best can achieve. It's the elite.

Before this weekend, when exactly did Ozil have a good game for Arsenal? January? December? That's not world-class, that's inconsistency. Something which blights many footballers.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Ozil looked truly world class against us both this season and last season, oh wait no he didn't, he was completely anonymous in all four games.

[socal1976]

All I remember was everyone and their mother telling me how Ozil's success would be measured by ending Arsenal's trophy drought, now HH the famous critic of stats and proponent of it is all about the trophies is moving the goal posts. Ozil leads our team in assists, key passes, and has scored some big goals over the course of the season as well. All in a season that he is adjusting to a new league and a new team; if we win the FA cup he will be a big part of it (certainly bigger part than Carrick and Ronny Johnson were to those trophies). And lets be clear this is a hypothetical with all due respect the teams left in this tournament can still put us out. But that doesn't keep me from pointing out your hypocrisy and the subtle moving of the goal posts.

exactly, we bought ozil to win trophies and challenge for the epl, guess what, we are challenging for the epl and should win the fa cup so Ozil by those standards has been a success. The fact he is also top of the assists and key passes and 3rd top goal scorer for us also highlights just how important he has been for us.

CS back me up on this point, didn't we hear when Ozil was signed how his success and the quality of the buy would be measured in trophies? That was the criteria I heard everyone pointing to now I am hearing something different. He and Giroud have been the constants in our attack with players like Ox, Wilshere, Ramsey, Walcott, Podolski, and Cazorla all missing long stretches of the season those two have been there fighting it out to keep us in contention. Ozil is at or near the top of the chart in key passes, chances created, and assist in the EPL. Has he had a slump in form in the last few matches, I think that is undeniable. But I don't think you will find a single Gunner that would criticize him and this side if we lift the cup. Especially, in light of his performances for us and how he has contributed to that success.

[Champagne_Socialist]

Well the whole point of being world-class is that you're one of the best in the world or, indeed, the best. And it is something that only the best can achieve. It's the elite.

Before this weekend, when exactly did Ozil have a good game for Arsenal? January? December? That's not world-class, that's inconsistency. Something which blights many footballers.

A season is made up of 38 epl games along with all of the cup games, about 50/60 games in total. You obviously base how good a player is over the course of a season. Messi had a quiet 5/6 weeks in la liga, he is still having a world class season.

Anyway like I said, Ozil is on course for 20 assists and 10 goals which is a world class stat.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Is there not an arsenal thread you guys can debate arsenal in?

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