"Hating" England

First topic message reminder :

ok firstly, sorry for the title to any English fans, this is not intended to insult England at all (god knows there is too much of that on here anyway). Instead what I wanted to discuss is this whole obsession with other 6N teams hating England as shown in a recent leaked clip from the BBC (although meant in good humour).

This has again become headline news at the BBC with Nowell claiming that Wales hate England (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26443654 ) and I would really like to dispel this kind of thing. I have recently moved from north wales to Cardiff for university and I found it surprising and disappointing at how my English housemates and new rugby mates viewed the welsh in regards to them hating the English, some of them claiming that since moving to wales they now dislike the welsh rugby team, not because of the team itself (although like any team, there are a few man parts), but instead because of the fans. I have to say I find this opinion very upsetting especially as Wales fans were known for being immensely passionate fans, but not for hating other teams. What is more upsetting for me is the fact that it doesn't in large seem to be true welsh rugby fans but instead the bandwagon fans who think hating England is all part of it.

Yes there is a deep history between our two nations, which has stemmed a rivalry over hundreds of years, however rivalry in rugby terms is not about hate but respect, rugby is about how you give it your all for 80minutes on that pitch and you put your body on the line for your team, but hate should never come into it. I will admit as a youngster I used to dislike England, some of their players attitudes and their style of play, however I have always respected some of their players and their dedication to the sport such as moody, Wilkinson, Robinson etc, and now especially since Lancaster has taken over I have a huge amount of respect for him and his team, turning it round from a frankly disappointing and slightly humiliating world cup, to a core group of individuals who may not be the best in the world, but actually define what rugby is about, being a team! The players under Lancaster show a lot more humility than under Johnson and while some such as Ashton and Farell may appear cocky on the pitch, off the pitch they come across as very modest and respectful young men.

Anyway back to the topic of "hating" England, can I just say to all England fans, I remember hearing somewhere (it may a famous quote from a book, film etc whatever) that a person is judge not on the success of himself but on the success on his enemies, or something similar, and that for me sums up the feelings between us welsh, to you English. Ignoring the history between our countries (of which there is a huge amount and has a massive influence on our rivalry) but instead focussing on England's rugby history, first and so far only NH WC winners, biggest pool of players in the world and there many accolades, and for us, our small country of 3 million people plus all the sheep, to have a good record against our "big" brothers as it can be seen, is an immense achievement.

Anyway to English fans, pob lwc for sunday (although not enough to help you win!! ) and I hope the banter on here after can be less personal!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sorry people, lots being said on here, yet when i stick up for England in a decent debating manner im told to calm down and that im behaving like a pantomime villain?

You usually appear reasonable to me. There are posters on here with serious chips on their shoulders tho that love to label people Anti (usually welsh - an example on this thread). Why I don't know. a patriotic englishman is fine. a bigot is not no matter what country they come from.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The choke tackle is legal until you end up holding people around the neck and under the chin, which happens a lot, and then is should be a high tackle. Not been pinged yet for whatever reason.

You are incorrect. If a player slips down themselves in a tackle its on their own head. You cant be penalised for a high tackle if you tackle around the waist or chest but the tackled player tries to slip down to ground.

Steffan wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Steffan wrote:Wales Captain Phil Bennett prior to the England game in 1977...

"Look what these bar stewards have done to Wales. They've taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our homes and live in them for a fortnight every year. What have they given us? Absolutely nothing. We've been exploited, raped, controlled and punished by the English — and that's who you are playing this afternoon."

and now they pay most of your countrymen to live the following regime day in day out

Monday - gym then sunbed.
Tuesday - gym then sunbed.
Wednesday - gym then sunbed.
Thursday - pick up my cheque, gym then sunbed.
Friday - gym then sunbed. Evening - coach into cardiff for a beer & a scrap.
Saturday - gym then sunbed. Evening - coach into cardiff for a beer & a scrap.
Sunday - gym then sunbed.

then repeat

Not that your applying a negative xenophobic stereotyping to the situation or anything...

not a stereotype... that was the actual routine from some chaps I once met years back on a mutual (welsh) friends stag do in Cardiff. And from what I understand... its not that uncommon.

Scrumpy wrote:

Steffan wrote:To be fair most of my northern English mates are cheering on Wales anyway due to the fact they say they cannot relate with the southern English well to do public school boy mentality that goes with the England rugby team

Fair enough, but you might want to tell them to check out where some of the Welsh boys went to school! 

True. But Welsh fans still dont park outside the Millennium Stadium in landrovers with hampers of prawn sandwiches and 'champers' in the back

I think irrelevant of where the Welsh or English players were educated it will always be seen as a working class v middle class fixture

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sorry people, lots being said on here, yet when i stick up for England in a decent debating manner im told to calm down and that im behaving like a pantomime villain?

You'll get over it Geordie as thats what decent people do. Forgive and forget.

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:GunsGerms you call Farrell,Brown etc hot heads but I don't remember them stamping on people.  

Ireland are well versed in the choke tackle too.

I wouldn't say any team is whiter than white.

Oh dear. The choke tackle is legal. Im embarassed for you.

Healy stamped on Cole who was slowing down and preventing ball from being released in the ruck. I'd rather one of my players stamp on a guy not releasing the ball than one of the pointless petulant things Farrell seems to do almost every match now.

Its Healy's one and only career ban. He doesnt play for England anyway so not sure how this is relevant.

Now everyone's embarrassed for you. Break a leg vs handbags, hmmm.

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I always thought Wales and England was more or less the same thing anyway?

A few years ago I would have said that yes in theory they are similar but one side is trying very very hard to prove otherwise.

Having actually lived in Swansea for 7 years I would say that they succeeded

Nice editing. Doesn't everyone love a keyboard monkey who goes to live in another country, then at night log on to the internet and slag off everything about it. #trolling

fa0019 wrote:

Steffan wrote:Wales Captain Phil Bennett prior to the England game in 1977...

"Look what these bar stewards have done to Wales. They've taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our homes and live in them for a fortnight every year. What have they given us? Absolutely nothing. We've been exploited, raped, controlled and punished by the English — and that's who you are playing this afternoon."

and now they pay most of your countrymen to live the following regime day in day out

Monday - gym then sunbed.
Tuesday - gym then sunbed.
Wednesday - gym then sunbed.
Thursday - pick up my cheque, gym then sunbed.
Friday - gym then sunbed. Evening - coach into cardiff for a beer & a scrap.
Saturday - gym then sunbed. Evening - coach into cardiff for a beer & a scrap.
Sunday - gym then sunbed.

then repeat

Surely that's Gavin Henson's training regime though the location of where he has a beer & scrap seems to change. Plus throw in a little reality TV filming on the side.  

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:GunsGerms you call Farrell,Brown etc hot heads but I don't remember them stamping on people.  

Ireland are well versed in the choke tackle too.

I wouldn't say any team is whiter than white.

Oh dear. The choke tackle is legal. Im embarassed for you.

Healy stamped on Cole who was slowing down and preventing ball from being released in the ruck. I'd rather one of my players stamp on a guy not releasing the ball than one of the pointless petulant things Farrell seems to do almost every match now.

Its Healy's one and only career ban. He doesnt play for England anyway so not sure how this is relevant.

Now everyone's embarrassed for you. Break a leg vs handbags, hmmm.

Sorry, who broke a leg idiot?

ChequeredJersey wrote:Of course, they know that London provides 20% of the whole UK's economy, and the City floats the rest of the UK because our resources are skill based not industrial, right?

Most of my hate is used up for unpleasant and stupid people wherever they come from but then I know too many people from most countries to actually hate people from those countries

Or the actually truth that london sucks money out of the rest of the country and the 20% figure only exists because company profits made UK wide are reported in London. If you look at total public spending per head of population London is subsidised hugely by the rest of the UK ( 125%of the average IIRC). Scotland a Wales get a bit more than their share. The west country and the north east of england get badly shafted. lies and stats getting into banned political debate tho Info here. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/220614/pesa_2011_chapter9.pdf best not to get into debate on this tho perhaps.

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The choke tackle is legal until you end up holding people around the neck and under the chin, which happens a lot, and then is should be a high tackle. Not been pinged yet for whatever reason.

You are incorrect. If a player slips down themselves in a tackle its on their own head. You cant be penalised for a high tackle if you tackle around the waist or chest but the tackled player tries to slip down to ground.

That would explain why it's never been whistled against but the only thing in the laws is 'A player must not tackle (or try to tackle) an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders. A tackle around the opponent’s neck or head is dangerous play.'

It would seem to suggest holding someone up is dangerous and a penalty. Different rule under mauls?

Scrumpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sorry people, lots being said on here, yet when i stick up for England in a decent debating manner im told to calm down and that im behaving like a pantomime villain?

You'll get over it Geordie as thats what decent people do. Forgive and forget.

It's against the rules to post xenophobic drivel on here. If you like rule-breaking then I suggest you post xenophobic drivel about Wales and Welsh posters as that seems to be the way around the rules.

That's the spirit 606v2. Spread the hate evenly around so no one's left out.   

The Saint wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sorry people, lots being said on here, yet when i stick up for England in a decent debating manner im told to calm down and that im behaving like a pantomime villain?

You'll get over it Geordie as thats what decent people do. Forgive and forget.

It's against the rules to post xenophobic drivel on here. If you like rule-breaking then I suggest you post xenophobic drivel about Wales and Welsh posters as that seems to be the way around the rules.

Still a few days to go Saint, Calm down fella.  

i think the hating English come from will Carling days but now its more of a jokey saying . remember years ago Wales lost to Scotland and a Scottish lad come up to me and said never mind at least you beat the English . all in jest

Excellent post from the OP. All I'd like to add is that the tragedy of the true bigots is that they cannot understand how much damage they do their countries and themselves. They damage their countries because they create resentment and dislike of their country among people who otherwise would not; they damage themselves because they take on the bad qualities they claim to hate and despise.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:That's the spirit 606v2. Spread the hate evenly around so no one's left out.   

We havent even started on the Kiwis yet    

How I miss the good natured England vs Ireland thread!   

GeordieFalcon wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:That's the spirit 606v2. Spread the hate evenly around so no one's left out.   

We havent even started on the Kiwis yet    

What's the point? If we insult their rugby team, everyone knows we are genuinely just jealous, and none of us know anything else about their tiny little country except they filmed the Lord of the Rings there...

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:That's the spirit 606v2. Spread the hate evenly around so no one's left out.   

We havent even started on the Kiwis yet    

What's  the point? If we insult their rugby team, everyone knows we are genuinely just jealous, and none of us know anything else about their tiny little country except they filmed the Lord of the Rings there...

Don't mention the Haka whatever you do!  

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:That's the spirit 606v2. Spread the hate evenly around so no one's left out.   

We havent even started on the Kiwis yet    

What's  the point? If we insult their rugby team, everyone knows we are genuinely just jealous, and none of us know anything else about their tiny little country except they filmed the Lord of the Rings there...

and The Piano. Think that also won an oscar.

The 4N hasn't started up again yet but Richie McCheat and his gang will feel the love no doubt. I think of it as perverse praise.

Scotland were doing a great job of being everybody's favourite team to play until they beat Italy. Most of you probably didn't read Daniele's heartfelt but completely misguided Scotland is Gaelic for Scum thread.   

Cowshot wrote:Excellent post from the OP. All I'd like to add is that the tragedy of the true bigots is that they cannot understand how much damage they do their countries and themselves. They damage their countries because they create resentment and dislike of their country among people who otherwise would not; they damage themselves because they take on the bad qualities they claim to hate and despise.

Spot on. Hating people because they come from a country is stupid, because that tells you almost nothing about that person.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Cowshot wrote:Excellent post from the OP. All I'd like to add is that the tragedy of the true bigots is that they cannot understand how much damage they do their countries and themselves. They damage their countries because they create resentment and dislike of their country among people who otherwise would not; they damage themselves because they take on the bad qualities they claim to hate and despise.

Spot on. Hating people because they come from a country is stupid, because that tells you almost nothing about that person.

Agree.

Agreed, lets all have a selfie together and move on.   

I prefer to have a selfie on my own in private.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Cowshot wrote:Excellent post from the OP. All I'd like to add is that the tragedy of the true bigots is that they cannot understand how much damage they do their countries and themselves. They damage their countries because they create resentment and dislike of their country among people who otherwise would not; they damage themselves because they take on the bad qualities they claim to hate and despise.

Spot on. Hating people because they come from a country is stupid, because that tells you almost nothing about that person.

That is probably one of the best things I have seen written on this forum.   

Bless him but Jack Nowell is a child, I mean I've got replica jerseys older than him for god sake and I wouldn't take what he says too seriously.

I'm sure he means no offence by this and god knows our own coach has said a lot worse but no the Welsh do not "hate" the English. That is too strong a term to describe the complex history involved. However the game still comes with spice and it remains a must win for many Welshmen.

Rivalry and pride yes but hate no.

To be fair there are only 2 people that I despise and 1 of them is Welsh  

Scrumpy wrote:Agreed, lets all have a selfie together and move on.   

It's not selfie sunday yet. #sorry #notsorry

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:That's the spirit 606v2. Spread the hate evenly around so no one's left out.   

We havent even started on the Kiwis yet    

What's  the point? If we insult their rugby team, everyone knows we are genuinely just jealous, and none of us know anything else about their tiny little country except they filmed the Lord of the Rings there...

and The Piano. Think that also won an oscar.

Frak awful film though

Steffan wrote:To be fair there are only 2 people that I despise and 1 of them is Welsh  

Gavin Henson?

A selfie you say?

GunsGerms wrote:

Steffan wrote:To be fair there are only 2 people that I despise and 1 of them is Welsh  

Gavin Henson?

Who could hate our Gav? So misunderstood.

Cardiff Taffy wrote:Bless him but Jack Nowell is a child, I mean I've got replica jerseys older than him for god sake and I wouldn't take what he says too seriously.

I'm sure he means no offence by this and god knows our own coach has said a lot worse but no the Welsh do not "hate" the English.  That is too strong a term to describe the complex history involved.  However the game still comes with spice and it remains a must win for many Welshmen.

Rivalry and pride yes but hate no.

He's Cornish too, isn't he, I know Cornishmen who hate England and want to be separate

Aren't the Cornish supposed to have very pale skin? Hence the phrase Cornish Pasty.

I'll get me coat...   

GunsGerms wrote:

Steffan wrote:To be fair there are only 2 people that I despise and 1 of them is Welsh  

Gavin Henson?

Nah never met him

I despise a guy who I have had a few runs in with in the past. He has always been a horrile person and a bully all his life

The other is an English girl I used to go out with who is the most evil beetch you could ever want to meet

If I became Prime Minister I would bring back the gas chamber especially for those pair

Oh and whilst we're on it......

Us Northern Monkeys dont all like rugby league thank you very much! You'll find that it is the north west and Cumbria that like that. However there is another area in "Northern England" that prefers Union. And to all you Southern Fairies its called Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, Northumberland, Nothumbria...however you wish to call it...a little town in Scotland it is not!!!!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Oh and whilst we're on it......

Us Northern Monkeys dont all like rugby league thank you very much! You'll find that it is the north west and Cumbria that like that. However there is another area in "Northern England" that prefers Union. And to all you Southern Fairies its called Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, Northumberland, Nothumbria...however you wish to call it...a little town in Scotland it is not!!!!

All your players are Scottish though, so you can understand our confusion...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Oh and whilst we're on it......

Us Northern Monkeys dont all like rugby league thank you very much! You'll find that it is the north west and Cumbria that like that. However there is another area in "Northern England" that prefers Union. And to all you Southern Fairies its called Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, Northumberland, Nothumbria...however you wish to call it...a little town in Scotland it is not!!!!

Never thought League was a Northern game... rather a game favoured by those 30miles north and south of the M62 and thats about it.

I don't hate the English specifically. I hate everyone equally.

The only problem I have with Jack Nowell is his hair.  I mean WTF!  It's looks like some weird combo of a skunk and porcupine...too weird.

hhhmmm cant argue with that CJ..Soon we'll be doing a better job for the Scotland team than their two regions will be!  

It is awful hair. We have to have at least one player with awful hair and Care and Marler's have improved slightly. I hear it is why he was picked...

Cardiff Taffy wrote:The only problem I have with Jack Nowell is his hair.  I mean WTF!  It's looks like some weird combo of a skunk and porcupine...too weird.

Plus he has got one of those faces you just want to slap

GeordieFalcon wrote:hhhmmm cant argue with that..Soon we'll be doing a better job for the Scotland team than their two regions will be!   

On current evidence, you already are

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The choke tackle is legal until you end up holding people around the neck and under the chin, which happens a lot, and then is should be a high tackle. Not been pinged yet for whatever reason.

You are incorrect. If a player slips down themselves in a tackle its on their own head. You cant be penalised for a high tackle if you tackle around the waist or chest but the tackled player tries to slip down to ground.

The correct technique goes no higher than the upper arm. As said the only high contact comes when it slides up, or the tackled player tries to sldide out. But theres nothing fundamentally illegal or dangerous about this tacking technique. Its the name thats confused people, and perhaps that Ireland were spending a lot of time grabbing people by the head/neck to drag them out of rucks during the period when it got fashionable.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The choke tackle is legal until you end up holding people around the neck and under the chin, which happens a lot, and then is should be a high tackle. Not been pinged yet for whatever reason.

You are incorrect. If a player slips down themselves in a tackle its on their own head. You cant be penalised for a high tackle if you tackle around the waist or chest but the tackled player tries to slip down to ground.

The correct technique goes no higher than the upper arm. As said the only high contact comes when it slides up, or the tackled player tries to sldide out. But theres nothing fundamentally illegal or dangerous about this tacking technique. Its the name thats confused people, and perhaps that Ireland were spending a lot of time grabbing people by the head/neck to drag them out of rucks during the period when it got fashionable.

Yeah. Choke tackling is a bit dull to watch but not dangerous. "Judo-rolling" at rucks, however, should be a yellow if no red card offence

RDW_Scotland wrote:There's a few people on here not covering themselves in glory -

Always with the comments about Englands recent record