"Hating" England

First topic message reminder :

ok firstly, sorry for the title to any English fans, this is not intended to insult England at all (god knows there is too much of that on here anyway). Instead what I wanted to discuss is this whole obsession with other 6N teams hating England as shown in a recent leaked clip from the BBC (although meant in good humour).

This has again become headline news at the BBC with Nowell claiming that Wales hate England (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26443654 ) and I would really like to dispel this kind of thing. I have recently moved from north wales to Cardiff for university and I found it surprising and disappointing at how my English housemates and new rugby mates viewed the welsh in regards to them hating the English, some of them claiming that since moving to wales they now dislike the welsh rugby team, not because of the team itself (although like any team, there are a few man parts), but instead because of the fans. I have to say I find this opinion very upsetting especially as Wales fans were known for being immensely passionate fans, but not for hating other teams. What is more upsetting for me is the fact that it doesn't in large seem to be true welsh rugby fans but instead the bandwagon fans who think hating England is all part of it.

Yes there is a deep history between our two nations, which has stemmed a rivalry over hundreds of years, however rivalry in rugby terms is not about hate but respect, rugby is about how you give it your all for 80minutes on that pitch and you put your body on the line for your team, but hate should never come into it. I will admit as a youngster I used to dislike England, some of their players attitudes and their style of play, however I have always respected some of their players and their dedication to the sport such as moody, Wilkinson, Robinson etc, and now especially since Lancaster has taken over I have a huge amount of respect for him and his team, turning it round from a frankly disappointing and slightly humiliating world cup, to a core group of individuals who may not be the best in the world, but actually define what rugby is about, being a team! The players under Lancaster show a lot more humility than under Johnson and while some such as Ashton and Farell may appear cocky on the pitch, off the pitch they come across as very modest and respectful young men.

Anyway back to the topic of "hating" England, can I just say to all England fans, I remember hearing somewhere (it may a famous quote from a book, film etc whatever) that a person is judge not on the success of himself but on the success on his enemies, or something similar, and that for me sums up the feelings between us welsh, to you English. Ignoring the history between our countries (of which there is a huge amount and has a massive influence on our rivalry) but instead focussing on England's rugby history, first and so far only NH WC winners, biggest pool of players in the world and there many accolades, and for us, our small country of 3 million people plus all the sheep, to have a good record against our "big" brothers as it can be seen, is an immense achievement.

Anyway to English fans, pob lwc for sunday (although not enough to help you win!! ) and I hope the banter on here after can be less personal!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:There's a few people on here not covering themselves in glory -

Always with the comments about Englands recent record  

  

To be fair most of my northern English mates are cheering on Wales anyway due to the fact they say they cannot relate with the southern English well to do public school boy mentality that goes with the England rugby team

Not many privately educated players in the English team nowadays, I think there are only three or four?

I'd be interested in where your 'northern mates' come from - their are plenty of Northerners in the current English squad so cheering for the opposition seems to be very strange.

League supprters perhaps?

Trailape...theres only 2 - Launchbury and Robshaw.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Trailape...theres only 2 - Launchbury and Robshaw.

How many Welsh players were born with a silver spoon in their mouths?

Trailape...theres only 2 - Launchbury and Robshaw.

The times they are a-changing.


(as discussed on a different thread)

I am old enough to remember games stood on the old North stand at the CAP and as an  Englishman was told in no uncertain terms by my Welsh mates to keep very quiet because they did not want to get hit or splashed by pints of unpleasant liquid that were aimed at my back !! There used to be a fair amount of spite but after the weekend it all blows over.

Happy days, apart from the results, which England generally lost,  badly.  The Hall non try was a favourite as was Underwoods mind blank for another try. I was there sadly,  although the weekends overall made up for it,  that I can remember.....I use to enjoy the pub right by Cardiff station,  which is no longer there - what was it called?
It was always filled with old boys in blazers singing songs - magic.

I annoyed a hell of a lot of people from Britain trying to explain that before but you explained it pretty well Welshy. There is possibly some very faint animosity there from the Irish perspectiv in terms of a historical point of view but it's mainly because they kicked the shoite out of us in every sport for umpteen years. You'd support Scotland and Wales playing England, they're seen as your Celtic cousins and all. There isn't a real issue when it's team Gb or whatever strangely but I suppose that's partly down to the fact that a fair few Northern Irish people partaking on their behalf.


It probaly ties into a type of siege mentality us against them thing.

ChequeredJersey wrote:
Yeah. Choke tackling is a bit dull to watch but not dangerous. "Judo-rolling" at rucks, however, should be a yellow if no red card offence

Its called the can opener. You are allowed clear out rucks provided you are bound properly.

Scrumpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Trailape...theres only 2 - Launchbury and Robshaw.

How many Welsh players were born with a silver spoon in their mouths?

I could think of a Welsh spoon but that was more of an orange spoon.   

It doesn't matter what socio-economic background a player has or whether they were brought up in a nursery or on the streets. What matters is how they play rugby. If they play badly then maybe that invites derision but hating on a player because of how he was raised is as silly as hating on a player because of where he's from.

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:
Yeah. Choke tackling is a bit dull to watch but not dangerous. "Judo-rolling" at rucks, however, should be a yellow if no red card offence

Its called the can opener. You are allowed clear out rucks provided you are bound properly.

As much as I enjoy it as a technique, it is also quite likely to cause a knee injury to someone, your leg gets trapped in the turf and you are in a spot of bother.

Thomond wrote:I annoyed a hell of a lot of people from Britain trying to explain that before but you explained it pretty well Welshy. There is possibly some very faint animosity there from the Irish perspectiv in terms of a historical point of view but it's mainly because they kicked the shoite out of us in every sport for umpteen years. You'd support Scotland and Wales playing England, they're seen as your Celtic cousins and all. There isn't a real issue when it's team Gb or whatever strangely but I suppose that's partly down to the fact that a fair few Northern Irish people partaking on their behalf.


It probaly ties into a type of siege mentality us against them thing.

Since we are all part of the UK youd think we would argue less.   

Wilson went to a comprehensive
Hartley went to a school in NZ and an academy, ie state school
Marler went to a community college that is state educated as far as I can tell
Lawes went to an academy
Launchbury went to an independent school
Wood went to an academy
Robshaw went to Millfield, a private school
Morgan went to an academy
Care went to an academy (which used to be a grammar school) (these are mostly very good schools but NOT independent schools)

It continues. This England side are not privately educated

I wonder is that how David Pocock got injured again. He is out for the season again now and needs another knee operation now.

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:
Yeah. Choke tackling is a bit dull to watch but not dangerous. "Judo-rolling" at rucks, however, should be a yellow if no red card offence

Its called the can opener. You are allowed clear out rucks provided you are bound properly.

Not by the neck you shouldn't be, more dangerous than tip-tackling

GunsGerms wrote:I wonder is that how David Pocock got injured again. He is out for the season again now and needs another knee operation now.

Terrible news isn't it. The guy is the best openside in world rugby.... but once those knees go, very few return.

Schalk has played maybe 4-5 matches since the RWC2011, he's back but I don't see the fire he once had... something you need in that position. Remarkable how McCaw has survived this long and his record for being available for the big games is legendary... he should be donated to medical science once he retires.

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I wonder is that how David Pocock got injured again. He is out for the season again now and needs another knee operation now.

Terrible news isn't it. The guy is the best openside in world rugby.... but once those knees go, very few return.

Schalk has played maybe 4-5 matches since the RWC2011, he's back but I don't see the fire he once had... something you need in that position. Remarkable how McCaw has survived this long and his record for being available for the big games is legendary... he should be donated to medical science once he retires.

We've already cloned him and sent him to Milfield years ago

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I wonder is that how David Pocock got injured again. He is out for the season again now and needs another knee operation now.

Terrible news isn't it. The guy is the best openside in world rugby.... but once those knees go, very few return.

Schalk has played maybe 4-5 matches since the RWC2011, he's back but I don't see the fire he once had... something you need in that position. Remarkable how McCaw has survived this long and his record for being available for the big games is legendary... he should be donated to medical science once he retires.

Bold statement since he hasn't played consistent footy since 2011. Not sure who is the best openside now but don't think that you can make that claim about a guy who has played very little rugby and even at the top of his game had limitations to his game.

Totally agree though that his injury run is tragic. He's fast turning into a player like Juan Smith and world rugby is poorer for it even though Hooper is an admirable replacement.

This"hate" thing is nothing more than the envy some poor relations feel when others in the family are seen as being better off. Many dont like living next door to a neighbor who is obviously much richer than them.  BUT ... Except I believe, Scotland. They appear to have lost the plot when it comes to sportsmanship. During the pre match entertainment at the England game they displayed not one but two Scottish flags on the pitch. The England flag was conspicuously missing. That evening the England squad jumped on a plane and went home. No after match meal. I think England felt unwelcome. It's a shame. The Scottish need to lighten up.

Takes two to make a row and as you say - the england team got on a plane and went home. the days of after match beers are gone now. My perspective on it - anti english sentiment is much less now than it used to be and mostly a wind up not actual bigotry

Unfortunately this practice has occurred at Twickenham as well. I'm not sure the reason behind it.

TJ wrote:Takes two to make a row and as you say - the england team got on a plane and went home.  the days of after match beers are gone now.  My perspective on it - anti english sentiment is much less now than it used to be and mostly a wind up not actual bigotry

To be fair, would you want to be sharing drinks with the Scottish team after that performance? I can't imagine they'd be happy drunks!

englandglory4ever wrote:This"hate" thing is nothing more than the envy some poor relations feel when others in the family are seen as being better off. Many dont like living next door to a neighbor who is obviously much richer than them.  BUT ... Except I believe, Scotland. They appear to have lost the plot when it comes to sportsmanship. During the pre match entertainment at the England game they displayed not one but two Scottish flags on the pitch. The England flag was conspicuously missing. That evening the England squad jumped on a plane and went home. No after match meal. I think England felt unwelcome. It's a shame. The Scottish need to lighten up.

Are you really well off?

That's the only time I've not seen both teams flags displayed. Someone in the SRU has got a bad dose of envy. Or dare I say it, hate.

Yes GG I am. Obviously better off than you.

Or a bit of mischief in them?

But had that been done at Twickenham TJ and spotted by one of the Celtic nations it would have been deemed sheer English arrogance.

Thats why we get frustrated a little bit of mischief by one side becomes serious bad behaviour by England.

Amen...time to be nice....

englandglory4ever wrote:Yes GG I am. Obviously better off than you.

How do you know? How wealthy are you?

Look England just say sorry for being such meanies and we'll let it go ok?

No i like being a meanie...

Hey Geordie - you really have more in common with your northern neighbours that those toffs in the south. Do you want to join the republic of Scotland? We will be kind to you after all your rugby team is really a scots team isn't it?

There we are Jack. Sam our captain said hate is a very strong word. So from that, I guess we only mildly dislike you all.

GunsGerms wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Yes GG I am. Obviously better off than you.

How do you know? How wealthy are you?

I'm extremely rich in good nature and hospitality. It's a shame some of you Celts are embarrassed in that department.

That is very true TJ, and thank you for the offer...but we ourselves are becoming a principality....so i must decline.

We will however continue to feed through to the Scotland team and create a powerhouse Scottish side ready to challenge in 2019!

englandglory4ever wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Yes GG I am. Obviously better off than you.

How do you know? How wealthy are you?

I'm extremely rich in good nature and hospitality. It's a shame some of you Celts are embarrassed in that department.

Oh sorry I thought you were talking about money. You do seem really welcoming of all other nations alright. My favorite travelling fans in the six nations are probably the English. Travel in large numbers and good fun in the bar afterwards. No complaints really.

Only ever had one bad experience with an England fan in 33 years. It was Ireland v England in Twickers. On 61 minutes Dan Cole scored a try to put England in the lead. A big England guy jumps out of his seat and stands in the aisle and gives all the Ireland fans in the adjacent section the fingers. About 10 minutes later Tommy Bowe scored the winning try and he looked fairly stoopid.

The guy was a classic moron but thats the worst Ive got.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But had that been done at Twickenham TJ and spotted by one of the Celtic nations it would have been deemed sheer English arrogance.

Thats why we get frustrated a little bit of mischief by one side becomes serious bad behaviour by England.

Amen...time to be nice....

It was done by England: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0fZ0Qyc9no

I've been at HQ to see all the tri nations and 6Ns sides. Never seen a hint of a problem from any of them or the English. Never been to an away match though. The only one I fancy is Rome.

englandglory4ever wrote:I've been at HQ to see all the tri nations and 6Ns sides. Never seen a hint of a problem from any of them or the English. Never been to an away match though. The only one I fancy is Rome.

Why Rome? Cause thats the only away fixture England are virtually guarenteed to win?

Englands glory - look to the youtube link above. I seem to remember some discussion at the time and that the two saltires was done because england had done similar previously. I might be mistaken tho. I think a large part of this is you see what you look for - so folk notice the one bigot not the 99 decent folk.

Oh Well i take it back and stand corrected. Im sure it would have been reported as ultimate English arrogance though   

Steffan wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

Steffan wrote:To be fair most of my northern English mates are cheering on Wales anyway due to the fact they say they cannot relate with the southern English well to do public school boy mentality that goes with the England rugby team

Fair enough, but you might want to tell them to check out where some of the Welsh boys went to school! 

True. But Welsh fans still dont park outside the Millennium Stadium in landrovers with hampers of prawn sandwiches and 'champers' in the back
I think irrelevant of where the Welsh or English players were educated it will always be seen as a working class v middle class fixture

Only because they can't. Parking at the MS is rubbish. And as for 'prawn sandwiches and champers', an old sterotype, long debunked.

I find ignornace to be inversely proportional to intelligence.

Been to Twickenham a fair few times. Never had a prawn sandwich or champagne, nor seen any. Just had a beer !

charliehesketh wrote:Been to Twickenham a fair few times.  Never had a prawn sandwich or champagne, nor seen any.  Just had a beer !

Thats because it only exists in the minds of a select few 'special' people.

Not sure about prawn sandwiches but used to see a fair few wicker hampers and bottles of champagne on the back pitches of Murrayfield when we parked there.

Brain Moore made a point of mentioning the bollinger canvas for the Ireland game. Do they produce beer?

Champagne = delicious. Prawn sambos = yum. Whats the problem? I once had a burger from a van outside the Millenium stadium 80% salt, some breadcrumbs, couple of hairs and the rest was mystery meat. To be fair to them it just said burgers no indication of what it might contain.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:
Yeah. Choke tackling is a bit dull to watch but not dangerous. "Judo-rolling" at rucks, however, should be a yellow if no red card offence

Its called the can opener. You are allowed clear out rucks provided you are bound properly.

Not by the neck you shouldn't be, more dangerous than tip-tackling

Strict reading of the laws you arent allowed to wrestle, only push.
Current IRB guidance to elite referees states that judo rolls arent to be penalised however. High contact though should be.

I hate what Scotland rugby has become in terms of pre match stuff.

Instead of the mass pipes and drums belting out "The green hills of Tyrol" or "Scotland the Brave"we have the red hot chillie pipers playing Journey , don't stop believing.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I hate what Scotland rugby has become in terms of pre match stuff.

Instead of the mass pipes and drums belting out "The green hills of Tyrol" or "Scotland the Brave"we have the red hot chillie pipers playing Journey , don't stop believing.

Is that a real thing?   

Red hot chilli pipers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Isxaq6yuKxE

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I hate what Scotland rugby has become in terms of pre match stuff.

Instead of the mass pipes and drums belting out "The green hills of Tyrol" or "Scotland the Brave"we have the red hot chillie pipers playing Journey , don't stop believing.

In fairness Radge, given the fragility of the pitch at the moment, could you imagine the state of it after the mass pies and drums had trooped off