"Hating" England

First topic message reminder :

ok firstly, sorry for the title to any English fans, this is not intended to insult England at all (god knows there is too much of that on here anyway). Instead what I wanted to discuss is this whole obsession with other 6N teams hating England as shown in a recent leaked clip from the BBC (although meant in good humour).

This has again become headline news at the BBC with Nowell claiming that Wales hate England (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26443654 ) and I would really like to dispel this kind of thing. I have recently moved from north wales to Cardiff for university and I found it surprising and disappointing at how my English housemates and new rugby mates viewed the welsh in regards to them hating the English, some of them claiming that since moving to wales they now dislike the welsh rugby team, not because of the team itself (although like any team, there are a few man parts), but instead because of the fans. I have to say I find this opinion very upsetting especially as Wales fans were known for being immensely passionate fans, but not for hating other teams. What is more upsetting for me is the fact that it doesn't in large seem to be true welsh rugby fans but instead the bandwagon fans who think hating England is all part of it.

Yes there is a deep history between our two nations, which has stemmed a rivalry over hundreds of years, however rivalry in rugby terms is not about hate but respect, rugby is about how you give it your all for 80minutes on that pitch and you put your body on the line for your team, but hate should never come into it. I will admit as a youngster I used to dislike England, some of their players attitudes and their style of play, however I have always respected some of their players and their dedication to the sport such as moody, Wilkinson, Robinson etc, and now especially since Lancaster has taken over I have a huge amount of respect for him and his team, turning it round from a frankly disappointing and slightly humiliating world cup, to a core group of individuals who may not be the best in the world, but actually define what rugby is about, being a team! The players under Lancaster show a lot more humility than under Johnson and while some such as Ashton and Farell may appear cocky on the pitch, off the pitch they come across as very modest and respectful young men.

Anyway back to the topic of "hating" England, can I just say to all England fans, I remember hearing somewhere (it may a famous quote from a book, film etc whatever) that a person is judge not on the success of himself but on the success on his enemies, or something similar, and that for me sums up the feelings between us welsh, to you English. Ignoring the history between our countries (of which there is a huge amount and has a massive influence on our rivalry) but instead focussing on England's rugby history, first and so far only NH WC winners, biggest pool of players in the world and there many accolades, and for us, our small country of 3 million people plus all the sheep, to have a good record against our "big" brothers as it can be seen, is an immense achievement.

Anyway to English fans, pob lwc for sunday (although not enough to help you win!! ) and I hope the banter on here after can be less personal!

Jimpy wrote:

Steffan wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

Steffan wrote:To be fair most of my northern English mates are cheering on Wales anyway due to the fact they say they cannot relate with the southern English well to do public school boy mentality that goes with the England rugby team

Fair enough, but you might want to tell them to check out where some of the Welsh boys went to school! 

True. But Welsh fans still dont park outside the Millennium Stadium in landrovers with hampers of prawn sandwiches and 'champers' in the back
I think irrelevant of where the Welsh or English players were educated it will always be seen as a working class v middle class fixture

Only because they can't. Parking at the MS is rubbish. And as for 'prawn sandwiches and champers', an old sterotype, long debunked.

I find ignornace to be inversely proportional to intelligence.

Ignorance and intelligence….inversely proportional….how wonderfully deep you are. Did you think of that yourself?   

Pies on the pitch???? Novel idea but I'm sure tasty enough pre-game..... or at least until the nematodes get their teeth into them

SecretFly wrote:Pies on the pitch????  Novel idea but I'm sure tasty enough pre-game..... or at least until the nematodes get their teeth into them

Ahhh, I love my phones auto correct   

GLove39 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Pies on the pitch????  Novel idea but I'm sure tasty enough pre-game..... or at least until the nematodes get their teeth into them

Ahhh, I love my phones auto correct   

And I was thinking it was a cunning plan to slow down the likes of the Vunipolas and Ben Morgan...

Getting back to the main theme of the thread, I wonder if part of the issue is that the rivalries are a bit assymetric - all of Wales, Scotland and Ireland have justifiable reasons for considering England their main rival - historical enmity, putting one over the bigger neighbour etc. However, for England, none of them are particular 'stand-out' rivals. If anything, our historical and cultural antipathy is more against the Cheese-eating surrender-monkeys French than against the oppressed Celtic bretheren. Or perhaps the Aussies, because of their loud-mouthed arrogance (yes, Mr Campese, I am meaning you). New Zealand - not really rivals simply because they have historically been much too good for us.

course, if Germany played rugby to a comparable level, it would be a different story, although again the football rivalry is a bit assymetric - we 'hate' the Germans but they are a bit meh about us...

dummy_half wrote:

GLove39 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Pies on the pitch????  Novel idea but I'm sure tasty enough pre-game..... or at least until the nematodes get their teeth into them

Ahhh, I love my phones auto correct   

And I was thinking it was a cunning plan to slow down the likes of the Vunipolas and Ben Morgan...

That and a ploy to lure the great Allan Chuck Jacobsen out of retirement!

Kia ... Roa and TJ.  I stand corrected. The only reason there wasn't a NZ flag is because the RFU didn't have one. Don't play them that often. Scotland on the other hand have no excuse. I stand by my inference that it was a hostile act by the jocks.

GLove39 wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

GLove39 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Pies on the pitch????  Novel idea but I'm sure tasty enough pre-game..... or at least until the nematodes get their teeth into them

Ahhh, I love my phones auto correct   

And I was thinking it was a cunning plan to slow down the likes of the Vunipolas and Ben Morgan...

That and a ploy to lure the great Allan Chuck Jacobsen out of retirement!

Jacobsen has an unfair advantage - starts much closer to the pies...

englandglory4ever wrote:Kia ... Roa and TJ.  I stand corrected. The only reason there wasn't a NZ flag is because the RFU didn't have one. Don't play them that often. Scotland on the other hand have no excuse. I stand by my inference that it was a hostile act by the jocks.

As I say - I seem to remember comment at the time that it was done in response to some slight from the RFU but it could be faulty memory.

I don't buy that excuse. We play England every year almost in the autumn internationals. Just as often as the 6N teams. Don't do it if you don't have a NZ flag. Certainly don't put two English flags!

I remember that, thinking how hateful towards NZ it was   Is there really 'hate' in rugby? Heard some horrible things in the stand at EPL games, boy, that was an eye opener. Have only ever heard jokes, banter and nervous ramblings at rugby games.

ebop wrote:I remember that, thinking how hateful towards NZ it was   Is there really 'hate' in rugby? Heard some horrible things in the stand at EPL games, boy, that was an eye opener. Have only ever heard jokes, banter and nervous ramblings at rugby games.

YEah, football is a very different kettle of fish. Ever been to a Millwall home game? I don't advise it if not. On the other hand, I'm sorry to say that the humour at football matches is far, far better, and at its best a lot more sophisticated. I generally find rugby venues eerily quiet.

As a fan at test matches and at provincial games, I've heard opposition fans be condescending and arrogant, I've had fans gloat and rub salt in the wounds- but those fans have been massively in the minority; most fans of all nations are good craic and people you can generally chat to and have a laugh with. I've only once had an opposition fan say anything hateful or act aggressively towards me, ever, in going to many rugby games every season.

Just my anecdotal experience. I have seen one fight breakout between fans at Ravenhill, does it count if it's two Ulster fans fighting each other though? 

The only major incident I can remember is when I was at Edinburgh Uni... Edinburgh is the destination of choice for all the really posh English public schoolboys who are too stupid or too apathetic to get into Oxbridge. They are known collectively as the Yahs and widely disdained/mocked by other students (who of course they wouldn't associate with anyway). Anyway, at the Unions club night in Pleasance the night after England won the Calcutta Cup one year things got really out of hand between a group of beered up yahs and a group of equally beered up Scottish students. A massive brawl that was the main topic of gossip for a day or two afterwards    

But even that had as much to do with private school vs. state school, upper class vs middle class, Scottish vs English etc. as it did rugby.

Hood83 wrote:

ebop wrote:I remember that, thinking how hateful towards NZ it was   Is there really 'hate' in rugby? Heard some horrible things in the stand at EPL games, boy, that was an eye opener. Have only ever heard jokes, banter and nervous ramblings at rugby games.

YEah, football is a very different kettle of fish. Ever been to a Millwall home game? I don't advise it if not. On the other hand, I'm sorry to say that the humour at football matches is far, far better, and at its best a lot more sophisticated. I generally find rugby venues eerily quiet.

Yeah, I'd agree that the humour is way better at 'epl' football matches to. But that's a UK thing. Heard some hilarious things. But when things aren't panning out, ouch.

The rugby games I've been to, it's mainly just talking with mates or the guy next to you and laughing at the odd loud mouthed joker. Watch most of my rugby in NZ, so no doubt a cultural thing, we're reserved. At epl football games, it was like everyone knew each other. Maybe they did?

Anyways, I'm not Welsh or English, so don't understand the history, but it's just sport, but sport is 'everything'!! 

I have not had any experience of being at an International match, but I was in Twickenham for the England-Wales game in 2012. I was in a pub with home and away fans, and everyone was fantastic - it's one of the lovely things about going to a rugby game. There was no animosity between the Welsh & English fans, and after the final whistle went there was much shaking of hands (between total strangers) and some friendly banter.

We then wandered up to the ground to watch the Women's team (it was free!) and again lots of banter was had with the returning Welsh and English fans. However, there was one drunk Welsh fan who was intent on waving his massive flag right in the faces of any England fans who were near him and belting out a very poor rendition of "Land of My Fathers". He was obviously just trying to wind everyone up and get a reaction. Most people didn't really care; however it was the only unnecessary thing I encountered on an otherwise really enjoyable day out (even though we lost the big match).

My point is that the absolute majority are top-drawer and sadly there's usually an idiot who can spoil it for others. The press can take one remark and blow it out of proportion and context to ramp up the tension. Some react, most don't. Is it good? Is it bad? As long as the game is good I don't care.

ebop wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

ebop wrote:I remember that, thinking how hateful towards NZ it was   Is there really 'hate' in rugby? Heard some horrible things in the stand at EPL games, boy, that was an eye opener. Have only ever heard jokes, banter and nervous ramblings at rugby games.

YEah, football is a very different kettle of fish. Ever been to a Millwall home game? I don't advise it if not. On the other hand, I'm sorry to say that the humour at football matches is far, far better, and at its best a lot more sophisticated. I generally find rugby venues eerily quiet.

Yeah, I'd agree that the humour is way better at 'epl' football matches to. But that's a UK thing. Heard some hilarious things. But when things aren't panning out, ouch.

The rugby games I've been to, it's mainly just talking with mates or the guy next to you and laughing at the odd loud mouthed joker. Watch most of my rugby in NZ, so no doubt a cultural thing, we're reserved. At epl football games, it was like everyone knew each other. Maybe they did?

Anyways, I'm not Welsh or English, so don't understand the history, but it's just sport, but sport is 'everything'!! 

Partly i think it's because at good football matches it's actually difficult to just chat to your mate next to you. I've actually heard some of the funniest stuff from fans of a team that's losing. A lot of people do know each other, a decent number of new chants are pre-planned as well.

Hate is an ugly word and not something to be used lightly.

I think this thread should be closed.

slartibartfast wrote:Hate is an ugly word and not something to be used lightly.

I think this thread should be closed.

Ok Warby

As most have said hate is such a strong word and attratcs idiots like some of these threads.

Having done 27yrs serving Queen and Country I have come across people I don't like form all walks of life and all Countries including my own beloved Wales.

My best mate is English I was his best man and am godfather to his beautiful daughter, for 80 minutes on Sunday we will slag each other call each other things that we don't mean but then it is forgotten and we will drink many a beer late into the night.

In the past we have been at either Twickenham or Cardiff on many occasions and have had words with our own so called 'fans' because they were just being idiots not becuase they were Welsh or English just idiots.

ebop wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

ebop wrote:I remember that, thinking how hateful towards NZ it was   Is there really 'hate' in rugby? Heard some horrible things in the stand at EPL games, boy, that was an eye opener. Have only ever heard jokes, banter and nervous ramblings at rugby games.

YEah, football is a very different kettle of fish. Ever been to a Millwall home game? I don't advise it if not. On the other hand, I'm sorry to say that the humour at football matches is far, far better, and at its best a lot more sophisticated. I generally find rugby venues eerily quiet.

Yeah, I'd agree that the humour is way better at 'epl' football matches to. But that's a UK thing. Heard some hilarious things. But when things aren't panning out, ouch.

The rugby games I've been to, it's mainly just talking with mates or the guy next to you and laughing at the odd loud mouthed joker. Watch most of my rugby in NZ, so no doubt a cultural thing, we're reserved. At epl football games, it was like everyone knew each other. Maybe they did?

Anyways, I'm not Welsh or English, so don't understand the history, but it's just sport, but sport is 'everything'!! 

Maybe they were all related?

Why do foriegns insist on call the soccer premier league the "epl"? I bet the Welsh hate that since their biggest clubs are in it.

In life, there is context. Sport is inherently adversarial. It's a contest, not a joint venture. Within that context as two teams "go to war", it's expected and inevitable that the opposition will be seen as an "enemy" and it is natural to exhibit traits of "hatred" for an enemy.

Now this is all in the context of the competitive spirit.

It makes me laugh when fans say things like "everyone hates us". It's a misconception of perspective. Since a team always plays in opposition to other teams, then the perspective is that ALL other teams "hate" your own team. Similarly to the misconception that the earth was the centre of the universe to inhabitants of the earth, before they wiser up.

The issue arises when someone fails to identify (a) the context and (b) their perspective.

Rugby, like few other sports, surely demonstrates fairly effectively that it's possible to "hate" your opponents when they're your opponents, but enjoy their company afterwards?

GloriousEmpire wrote:In life, there is context. Sport is inherently adversarial. It's a contest, not a joint venture. Within that context as two teams "go to war", it's expected and inevitable that the opposition will be seen as an "enemy" and it is natural to exhibit traits of "hatred" for an enemy.

Now this is all in the context of the competitive spirit.

It makes me laugh when fans say things like "everyone hates us". It's a misconception of perspective. Since a team always plays in opposition to other teams, then the perspective is that ALL other teams "hate" your own team. Similarly to the misconception that the earth was the centre of the universe to inhabitants of the earth, before they wiser up.

The issue arises when someone fails to identify (a) the context and (b) their perspective.

Rugby, like few other sports, surely demonstrates fairly effectively that it's possible to "hate" your opponents when they're your opponents, but enjoy their company afterwards?

To be fair, I liked you when you were having a go at the Welsh a couple of years ago.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:In life, there is context. Sport is inherently adversarial. It's a contest, not a joint venture. Within that context as two teams "go to war", it's expected and inevitable that the opposition will be seen as an "enemy" and it is natural to exhibit traits of "hatred" for an enemy.

Now this is all in the context of the competitive spirit.

It makes me laugh when fans say things like "everyone hates us". It's a misconception of perspective. Since a team always plays in opposition to other teams, then the perspective is that ALL other teams "hate" your own team. Similarly to the misconception that the earth was the centre of the universe to inhabitants of the earth, before they wiser up.

The issue arises when someone fails to identify (a) the context and (b) their perspective.

Rugby, like few other sports, surely demonstrates fairly effectively that it's possible to "hate" your opponents when they're your opponents, but enjoy their company afterwards?

To be fair, I liked you when you were having a go at the Welsh a couple of years ago.

Surely you're mistaken - I've only been on the forum for a year.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:In life, there is context. Sport is inherently adversarial. It's a contest, not a joint venture. Within that context as two teams "go to war", it's expected and inevitable that the opposition will be seen as an "enemy" and it is natural to exhibit traits of "hatred" for an enemy.

Now this is all in the context of the competitive spirit.

It makes me laugh when fans say things like "everyone hates us". It's a misconception of perspective. Since a team always plays in opposition to other teams, then the perspective is that ALL other teams "hate" your own team. Similarly to the misconception that the earth was the centre of the universe to inhabitants of the earth, before they wiser up.

The issue arises when someone fails to identify (a) the context and (b) their perspective.

Rugby, like few other sports, surely demonstrates fairly effectively that it's possible to "hate" your opponents when they're your opponents, but enjoy their company afterwards?

To be fair, I liked you when you were having a go at the Welsh a couple of years ago.

Surely you're mistaken - I've only been on the forum for a year.

Not even all of that tsk tsk

Jimpy wrote:

charliehesketh wrote:Been to Twickenham a fair few times.  Never had a prawn sandwich or champagne, nor seen any.  Just had a beer !

Thats because it only exists in the minds of a select few 'special' people.

it does exist.
I had wine, cheese and "coq au vin" (cheeky english) last time I was invited for lunch out of a Ranger Rover boot at the Twickenham car park. there was champagne (and beer) but no such thing as prawn sandwich.

We thrive on rivalry. Without rivalry what is sport? I have followed rugby all over the world and found the fraternity to like minded, good natured, generous and welcoming.

I have found my fair share of idiots, but always the minority. Real rugby people, with a deep interest and knowledge of the game are respectful of all who play, from which ever nation.

I will always want to beat the English (the team I consider to be rivals number 1) with a passion, but hatred? No - an emotion that that does not belong in sport and always brings out the worst behaviours. Hate dulls performance and clouds judgement.

Hate should be reserved for far more serious examples of human behaviour.

From a springbok perspective their ultimate rivarly is with NZ... but they probably get most satisfaction from thumping England.

I imagine thats true for many nations.

Its just the way it is.

fa0019 wrote:From a springbok perspective their ultimate rivarly is with NZ... but they probably get most satisfaction from thumping England Australia .

I imagine thats true for many nations.

Its just the way it is.

Beating England is no different to beating France. The percentages are roughly the same though inexplicably we have played more tests against France particularly 3 test series at home.

The Bok are the greatest of rivals and the Aussies next. That's not so much due to geographical proximity - everything is far from NZ - but the numbers of games those rivals have beaten NZ compared to the others. Due to isolation and Bledisloe frequencies coupled with Aussie's dominance in the early and late 90s, a lot of young fullas might think Australia was our greatest rival and are only waking up to the idea that SA has always been our main rival.

Dislike is fine. Hate is aggressive. Hate allows manipulative people to use ignorant haters as tools for aggression.

That winger needs talking to.

But 'HATE' is the emotion that dismantled England last time.  I mean it was a strategic emotion purposefully evoked to gain a result.

The English are beginning to understand that emotional input can charge the batteries more and make the hits seem less painful.  The "winger" is only using similar language to what some of the Welsh players used last year.  It's tactical to get in that mood before a very important game.

North last year: “You try to keep a cool head and you try to maintain calm and focus, but everyone you see on the street is saying ‘make sure you smash their heads in’! The whole country loves it. Wales is a massive rugby nation, and whenever we play England there seems to be this long, long rivalry that everyone just wants a bloodbath, really.”

Did anyone suggest that winger needed talking to last year?

Id wouldve loved George North to have said "everyone in Wales hates me"

bedfordwelsh wrote:As most have said hate is such a strong word and attratcs idiots like some of these threads.

Having done 27yrs serving Queen and Country I have come across people I don't like form all walks of life and all Countries including my own beloved Wales.

My best mate is English I was his best man and am godfather to his beautiful daughter, for 80 minutes on Sunday we will slag each other call each other things that we don't mean but then it is forgotten and we will drink many a beer late into the night.

In the past we have been at either Twickenham or Cardiff on many occasions and have had words with our own so called 'fans' because they were just being idiots not becuase they were Welsh or English just idiots.

Absolute.  Hate is a four letter word.  Sadly it is overused and has become a verbal crutch for many.  

My own special relationship with Her Majesty's armed forces and Foreign Office has lasted off and on since before med school (we agreed to disagree about the necessity for following instructions, but someone likes the idea of an old basteraud in shaky situations so I get 'requested' instead of recalled every year or so for short term assignments).  My experiences are the same as yours BedfordWelsh, and have met many people, many I like, some I do not like, the majority are in the middle.  However, in every bad situation, there is some level of hate at the bottom of it all.  If anyone here truly hates, then it is bad.  

Why the special feelings towards the English?  Is it the 'pinkie in the air' brigade?  Is it that we are the largest nation in the country and is where most of the money and media are?   No way to know.  We are the United Kingdom.  We are also Rugby.  No hate, just let's kick each other in the teeth and let's have a beer afterwards.

doctor grey wrote:Why the special feelings towards the English? Is it the 'pinkie in the air' brigade? Is it that we are the largest nation in the country and is where most of the money and media are? No way to know. We are the United Kingdom. We are also Rugby. No hate, just let's kick each other in the teeth and let's have a beer afterwards.

Sadly, the sort of hatred expressed by the likes of rainbow warrior is very real. It leads to (real example, but I'm not saying which UK country it happened in) a local glassing a female English student because she is English leading to permanent scarring and when I read the report in the local paper, it was uncertain whether her sight in one eye could be saved. THAT is where this sort of stupid cowardly ignorant self pitying self indulgence leads. It says a great deal about the hater and nothing at all about the hated.

However, I do not consider it the same emotion as that created by players of an intensely physical sport working themselves up for a big game and having a beer together afterwards, whether it be an international or a local derby. I DO wish the players and coaches could keep it in private and not let it get into the media where it is of course oversimplified, but I realise that isn't going to happen.

I have spent time in all the countries of these islands and met many wonderful people and had great times in each of them. We have far more in common than we have different, and that includes a small but vociferous minority of pathetic twisted little maggots. Sadly, it's part of the human condition. The important thing is not to let the haters twist your view of the majority. This can be difficult, I know, but to let it affect your view of the majority is the greatest victory the haters can have. Deny it them.

Nationalism is the driving force behind the posts of the the like of Rainbow and Scratch - and of course, it continues to be the best way of making everything better.

Of all the options available to humans, experts say focusing on ethnicity and borders will always produce spectacularly successful results.

The big question is why it’s so successful. I think it’s because people who define themselves in terms of their nationality also tend to be the most intelligent and imaginative, not ignorant and stupid at all.

Nationalism is the best way to make everyone rich, safe and happy. It really is true – the best solutions are always the most simplistic. And the great thing is that if nationalism does ever fail to solve all our problems we’ve still got religion.

Because community and the expulsion of "foreign" and "other" cultures and values has provided the cornerstone of human survival for millennia. Those who weren't intrinsically communally minded died out because they lacked the diverse skills required to survive and reproduce successfully, or were out competed by those who were.

"Bloodbath" is a figure of speech and you know it.

Because I have a brain I know the " Winger" didn't mean it but with some of the bile and idiotic mindsets of people they take words out of context.

If you think I'm being Anti English because the article was from the English camp you couldn't be further from the truth.

I'm embarrsed by "as long as we best the English" mentality.

Do I hate people who spout such bile? No, I extremely dislike them

fa0019 wrote:From a springbok perspective their ultimate rivarly is with NZ... but they probably get most satisfaction from thumping England.

I imagine thats true for many nations.

Its just the way it is.

I get pleasure out of winning, I don't really care who the opponent is. Some opponents I savour those wins more as they are more rare, and other I expect the Boks to beat.

I get angry if we lose any match against any opponent, sometimes really angry, and when we lose against those we aren't supposed to I want to break something, or someone.

But I have no hate for any opponent.

some french people say they dislike the english but when you ask them why there is hardly any answer so its all down to folklore. In practice we get along nicely and it's all good banter when it comes to rugby (been several times to Twickenham and I can safely say that the hospitaly of the locals is great). On football it's quite different though (I remember watching some france world cup games in some north london pub when I was living on the other side of the channel and it was quite scary at times).

that said there is nothing that would please me more than France beating England in the RWC final in Twickenham preferably with Ashton missing a tackle on the last french try. but that's just a dream...for now

slartibartfast wrote:"Bloodbath" is a figure of speech and you know it.

So is 'Hate'.  

I 'hate' many things - TV shows, Music "producers"   , actors, friends - family!!!  (touch one of the ones I 'hate' and I'd defend them with my life)........................................;

Hate, it's instructive of an emotion.  I Hate my alarm going off on cold winter mornings.  I don't do a PC on it and choose to say "dislike it" instead.  No - I Hate it with a vengence!  

But neither do I 'kill' it by throwing it against the wall though.  I need it...it's a friend to me.... it makes sure I don't sleep it, which I HATE even more!!!!  But I do hate the alarm all the same.

We all know this Hate business is a sporting word, spoken in a sporting context.  We're all being far too prissy in debating it too.

Scrumpy wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:I found the "Wales are going to be taken to dark places" headline funnier.

England's trophy room?

I believe that's where the Beeb put John Inverdale when his not on the TV?

Then the sooner they lock the door and lose the key the better.


Although he's quite entertaining on Countdown.

whocares wrote:some french people say they dislike the english but when you ask them why there is hardly any answer so its all down to folklore. In practice we get along nicely and it's all good banter when it comes to rugby (been several times to Twickenham and I can safely say that the hospitaly of the locals is great). On football it's quite different though (I remember watching some france world cup games in some north london pub when I was living on the other side of the channel and it was quite scary at times).

that said there is nothing that would please me more than France beating England in the RWC final in Twickenham preferably with Ashton missing a tackle on the last french try. but that's just a dream...for now

Surely you'd prefer Ashton to drop the ball over the line while splashing down for a last minute would-be match winning try?   

Anyway, my experience with rugby crowds (also applies for Australian RL supporters) is that in the flesh they are very good natured win or lose - message board warriors are not a representative sample (and the anonymity and distance of message boards brings out the worst in some people). Football crowds, whether live at the game or in the pub, are much more 'tribal' and hostile.

That would be entertaining dummy, at least for whocares and many neutrals, but it'd mean England should've won. Far better whocare's scenario because they rightfully won, hypothetically speaking of course... I hope.

dummy_half wrote: in the flesh they are very good natured win or lose - message board warriors are not a representative sample (and the anonymity and distance of message boards brings out the worst in some people).

But who is lying?  The message board warrior who tells you you're a ****er!!!!  Or the message board warrior (out for a spot of daytime activity and being as publically civil as he can manage) saying directly to your face that your guys played really well?

I'm not really sure which is the better humanbeing.  The ranting gobshyte online or the patronising, devious, sly, butter-fluff, soft-soaping gobshyte in the flesh.

If only there was some middle ground for the vast majority of people to occupy . . .

'England' - the concept - is the big brother, the mother country, the mother tongue, inventor of rugby, and home of the town of Rugby. (ok, France Italian fans, you can stop reading this).
This for most rugby playing countries, including to a cultural extent Argentina, makes 'England' the big dominant concept, the 'arrogant' one, the big guy, they all want to teach a lesson to.

Bit daft really, as everyone in the rugby world knows that NZ and RSA are the true  standard bearers we all have to measure up to. And as to Wales, they can never beat England enough. Smash us to a pulp, stake through the heart, bury us, and dig us back up, resuscitae,and start all over again, and never be satisfied.
Just hope not this Sunday.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:In life, there is context. Sport is inherently adversarial. It's a contest, not a joint venture. Within that context as two teams "go to war", it's expected and inevitable that the opposition will be seen as an "enemy" and it is natural to exhibit traits of "hatred" for an enemy.

Now this is all in the context of the competitive spirit.

It makes me laugh when fans say things like "everyone hates us". It's a misconception of perspective. Since a team always plays in opposition to other teams, then the perspective is that ALL other teams "hate" your own team. Similarly to the misconception that the earth was the centre of the universe to inhabitants of the earth, before they wiser up.

The issue arises when someone fails to identify (a) the context and (b) their perspective.

Rugby, like few other sports, surely demonstrates fairly effectively that it's possible to "hate" your opponents when they're your opponents, but enjoy their company afterwards?

To be fair, I liked you when you were having a go at the Welsh a couple of years ago.

No more false flag 'I'm a Welshman' campaigns from you then?

I have a multitude of English mates and banter is good stuff, but then I read Poopie like an article from Austin Healey in the TG and all my feelings of bon homme go through the window.

COME ON WALES!!

Nicked this from another thread, but so good I thought I would share it with my rugby mates.
(another country, another era, another code, but still good)

"Who's going to win the match, Mr. Blanchflower*?"
"Well nobody knows, you see. That's why we're playing the match."

Kinda sums up how I feel.

I will confess that I have not read most of the posts on this thread but the OP is a good opportunity to say something that has been bugging me for a few years, but I didn't want to be negative and bring it up on these boards outright.

That is the fact that no matter team Scotland are playing, the Scotland v Wales fixture is always the one I consider not going to the pub for.

Why? *In my experience* I have found the Welsh the support the least gracious of the lot. I still remember 2011 where, half time, Scots were up and looked like they would win the match - the Welsh looked downcast and downbeat and shocked and the Scots were just as surprised but enjoying it. Good chats all around still.

Come full time (you know what happened) I just recall the entire bar erupting into a frenzy of, frankly, ungracious winners. Just far too many "world beaters" comments and "comeback kings" and "oh poor scotland - HA!". I feel that had Scotland have won, it would not have been so.

That's the worst example, but in general I find it hard to socialise with the Welsh during these matches unlike with other nationalities including England who will have a bit of banter and a bit of a laugh. It feels like when Wales are up, they like to rub it in our faces; when they are down, they hate the supporters of the winners that they come off as sore losers - not that I have ever watched Wales lost against Scotland for a long time, but against other nations.

Caveats:
1) I have only watched 6N matches and that brings out all manner of people - although like I said, doesn't happen with other nationalities
2) Maybe I had a couple of bad experiences and now my information filtering system has become biased. I am trying.
3) I wonder whether it's a national sport thing. Most football matches are like this with opposition fans, if the Welsh care about rugby more than anything else, it's "more important" to them as a nation than it is to us, hence the asymmetry of behaviour. Still shouldn't bring out that kind of thing but I'm not going to suggest the majority Scotland's football supporters are any more gracious!! Far from it.
4) I am watching these matches mostly in London, although sometimes elsewhere. Never in Wales so far.

In summary I try to like the Welsh team but I can't, because of it's supporters; the OP chimes with the behaviour of Welsh people I have met.

I would be willing to go into therapy i.e. drinking with some Welsh guys on this forum at one point to make me feel better!! I'm sure it's just unfortunate coincidences.

Maybe a good summary of my post is "taking it too seriously"