"Hating" England

First topic message reminder :

ok firstly, sorry for the title to any English fans, this is not intended to insult England at all (god knows there is too much of that on here anyway). Instead what I wanted to discuss is this whole obsession with other 6N teams hating England as shown in a recent leaked clip from the BBC (although meant in good humour).

This has again become headline news at the BBC with Nowell claiming that Wales hate England (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26443654 ) and I would really like to dispel this kind of thing. I have recently moved from north wales to Cardiff for university and I found it surprising and disappointing at how my English housemates and new rugby mates viewed the welsh in regards to them hating the English, some of them claiming that since moving to wales they now dislike the welsh rugby team, not because of the team itself (although like any team, there are a few man parts), but instead because of the fans. I have to say I find this opinion very upsetting especially as Wales fans were known for being immensely passionate fans, but not for hating other teams. What is more upsetting for me is the fact that it doesn't in large seem to be true welsh rugby fans but instead the bandwagon fans who think hating England is all part of it.

Yes there is a deep history between our two nations, which has stemmed a rivalry over hundreds of years, however rivalry in rugby terms is not about hate but respect, rugby is about how you give it your all for 80minutes on that pitch and you put your body on the line for your team, but hate should never come into it. I will admit as a youngster I used to dislike England, some of their players attitudes and their style of play, however I have always respected some of their players and their dedication to the sport such as moody, Wilkinson, Robinson etc, and now especially since Lancaster has taken over I have a huge amount of respect for him and his team, turning it round from a frankly disappointing and slightly humiliating world cup, to a core group of individuals who may not be the best in the world, but actually define what rugby is about, being a team! The players under Lancaster show a lot more humility than under Johnson and while some such as Ashton and Farell may appear cocky on the pitch, off the pitch they come across as very modest and respectful young men.

Anyway back to the topic of "hating" England, can I just say to all England fans, I remember hearing somewhere (it may a famous quote from a book, film etc whatever) that a person is judge not on the success of himself but on the success on his enemies, or something similar, and that for me sums up the feelings between us welsh, to you English. Ignoring the history between our countries (of which there is a huge amount and has a massive influence on our rivalry) but instead focussing on England's rugby history, first and so far only NH WC winners, biggest pool of players in the world and there many accolades, and for us, our small country of 3 million people plus all the sheep, to have a good record against our "big" brothers as it can be seen, is an immense achievement.

Anyway to English fans, pob lwc for sunday (although not enough to help you win!! ) and I hope the banter on here after can be less personal!

Ineffable wrote:Maybe a good summary of my post is "taking it too seriously"

You do appear to be, yes

all fans want their teams to win. true rugby fans, who have played rugby, feel emotionally drained after watching a match, as the real physical battle happens on the pitch. fans and players have nothing left for handbags after the match.

that's why i think there will never be crowd trouble at almost all rugby matches.

the one exception to that i would suggest is murrayfield where for historical and understandable reasons the Scots genuinely do "hate" the english in a historical/conceptual kind of way, that occasionally leaks into actual comments.

i hate crowds that remind me of soccer behaviour (the booing at MS recently by the pink hat brigade), teams that deliberately set out to infringe or injure, sh1te refs (incompetence is no excuse imo), and bad-loser type comments from anyone after the event.

but you can't hate a "team" as these are brave brave boys putting their bodies on the line, often against vastly superior opposition.

dummy_half wrote:

whocares wrote:some french people say they dislike the english but when you ask them why there is hardly any answer so its all down to folklore. In practice we get along nicely and it's all good banter when it comes to rugby (been several times to Twickenham and I can safely say that the hospitaly of the locals is great). On football it's quite different though (I remember watching some france world cup games in some north london pub when I was living on the other side of the channel and it was quite scary at times).

that said there is nothing that would please me more than France beating England in the RWC final in Twickenham preferably with Ashton missing a tackle on the last french try. but that's just a dream...for now

Surely you'd prefer Ashton to drop the ball over the line while splashing down for a last minute would-be match winning try?  

Anyway, my experience with rugby crowds (also applies for Australian RL supporters) is that in the flesh they are very good natured win or lose - message board warriors are not a representative sample (and the anonymity and distance of message boards brings out the worst in some people). Football crowds, whether live at the game or in the pub, are much more 'tribal' and hostile.

you surely work for Carlsberg Dummy   

also agree with the rest of your post .

Ineff... thanks and there is some truth here.
Some Wales fans seem have difficulty coping with victory.

I can cope with it. It is getting a bit tedious beating England now though

don't worry, the tedium will be over soon

I don't really 'hate' any teams but I must admit I do like Ireland beating England more than every other team, no idea why just do. That said, I have absolutely no issue if England beat Ireland.

I guess I just have respect for all teams and their abilities.

Risca Rev wrote:I can cope with it. It is getting a bit tedious beating England now though

Risca, 
Hope you can stay awake until Sunday tea time.
Then you can come back on here and say

"Well Done England, well deserved victory"

while we England fans can riposte :

" well played old chap, better luck next time !"

I think it will much more likely be:

See you in Cardiff again next year and lets hope you can get 1 win before we come back to Twickenham in the RWC with a 5/5 record

reply: Wales….cheats   …Walsh ….Lions…..Gatlandballs….Manu….we beat New Zealand….favourites   ….Grand Slam 2015

quinsforever wrote:don't worry, the tedium will be over soon

I completely agree. I fully expect England to win to be honest.

gregortree wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:I can cope with it. It is getting a bit tedious beating England now though

Risca, 
Hope you can stay awake until Sunday tea time.
Then you can come back on here and say

"Well Done England, well deserved victory"

while we England fans can riposte :

" well played old chap, better luck next time !"

Count me in   

Stop it Risca, you get me all complacent before k/o.

I bet everyone will be nervous as heck a minute before kick off as doubt creeps in.

I think most of us are already nervous ebop regardless of what some may say.

We can all provide examples of good and bad fans.

For example in 91-2 when ever it was , an English mate of mine wore his English shirt to Cardiff with pride. As we know Wales won 10 - 9. I've never seen anything like it since. Cardiff was bouncing.

My mate didn't cover up and we had no trouble.

We caught the last train "up the valleys" , he did his zip up in his jacket.

The train was traditional songs and the good ol chariot variations. It was like a scene from st. Trinians great train Roberry

Suddenly a welsh fan spotted my mates white top gleaming , he then proceed to entourage my mate to stand up and sing.

My mate stood up and the whole carriage fell silent with his 100 pairs of eyes staring at the sole English man.

He took a deep breath and proceed to sing two verses of swing low. I sat there frozen.

He fishied and sat down.

There was a brief pause before the carriage erupted into cheers and applause with people coming up and shaking his hand.

That was a moment I'll never forget.


The moral of the story is, no matter how hard we taught him he was a sh!t singer.



Only joking.


I think people need to make a difference between "fans" in a city pub who are just using the match as an excuse to get off their faces and true supporters who can appreciate the guy in the different coloured shirt also loves the sport.

ebop wrote:I bet everyone will be nervous as heck a minute before kick off as doubt creeps in.

If I'm this bad already, I'm not looking forward to Sunday afternoon

I have played, coached and supported rugby since i was 6.

It still makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck when i hear the hymn
s and arias, i still cry a tear or two when we win a Slam.

But rugby is THE great leveller.

My first club coach used to say to us, aged about 16/17. Go onto the pitch and eye your opposite number. Spend the entire game trying to defeat him in every way. Smash him. Before you leave the pitch shake his hand and mean it, then buy him a jug in the bar. In our club it was the rule you bought your oppo a jug first thing before anything else.

Point is there is no 'hate' amongst rugby players and for Nowell or anyone else to come out and say it - since he has never even played Wales - is pre match pre amble psyching out at best and at worse, pathetic rubbish. Like the arm wrestling on here it means nothing to a real fan, welsh or english.

slarti, totally agree with that.

we will know the sport is in trouble if away fans ever get herded into separate parts of stadiums.

Scratch wrote:I have played, coached and supported rugby since i was 6.

It still makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck when i hear the yens and arias, i still cry a tear or two when we win a Slam.

But rugby is THE great leveller.

My first club coach used to say to us, aged about 16/17. Go onto the pitch and eye your opposite number. Spend the entire game trying to defeat him in every way. Smash him. Before you leave the pitch shake his hand and mean it, then buy him a jug in the bar. In our club it was the rule you bought your oppo a jug first thing before anything else.

Point is there is no 'hate' amongst rugby players and for Nowell or anyone else to come out and say it - since he has never even played Wales - is pre match pre amble psyching out. Like the arm wrestling it means nothing to a real fan, welsh or english.

nowell has played plenty of age group matches vs Wales Scratch. and given those are players who are not yet professional, i can see how he may have experienced more raw passion as opposed to the controlled version i expect to see from both sides on sunday.

Scratch. Slarti,   great anecdotes and in the true spirit of rugby. Back in the real world of rugby I have never witnessed anything but goodwill among opposing fans and your stories chime with mine. 606 brings out something else occasionally, but you relate the true spirit in your yarns.

gregortree wrote:Scratch. Slarti,   great anecdotes and in the true spirit of rugby. Back in the real world of rugby I have never witnessed anything but goodwill among opposing fans and your stories chime with mine. 606 brings out something else occasionally, but you relate the true spirit in your yarns.

Thanks gregortree, let's not confuse hate with passion. And let's not deny passion can be hotheaded.

Wales by 30.

Scratch wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:In life, there is context. Sport is inherently adversarial. It's a contest, not a joint venture. Within that context as two teams "go to war", it's expected and inevitable that the opposition will be seen as an "enemy" and it is natural to exhibit traits of "hatred" for an enemy.

Now this is all in the context of the competitive spirit.

It makes me laugh when fans say things like "everyone hates us". It's a misconception of perspective. Since a team always plays in opposition to other teams, then the perspective is that ALL other teams "hate" your own team. Similarly to the misconception that the earth was the centre of the universe to inhabitants of the earth, before they wiser up.

The issue arises when someone fails to identify (a) the context and (b) their perspective.

Rugby, like few other sports, surely demonstrates fairly effectively that it's possible to "hate" your opponents when they're your opponents, but enjoy their company afterwards?

To be fair, I liked you when you were having a go at the Welsh a couple of years ago.

No more false flag 'I'm a Welshman' campaigns from you then?

I'm still 1/8th welsh and spend a lot more time there now some of my family has moved there.
In the same way shingler " knows all about Scotland" I feel well placed to sup at your glory soup and comment on your race, culture, and ladyfolk.

I used to travel up to HQ for this game with Eastbourne  RFC  boys when we were putting out players like Mark Titley.Wales were regularly trounced.Much ribbing on the trip back down to the coast!
We had had our glory days and then it was England's turn.Fair play.
All good humoured stuff.
I am going to be magnanimous on Sunday.Gloating is for wendyball.

Taffineastbourne wrote:I used to travel up to HQ for this game with Eastbourne  RFC  boys when we were putting out players like Mark Titley.Wales were regularly trounced.Much ribbing on the trip back down to the coast!
We had had our glory days and then it was England's turn.Fair play.
All good humoured stuff.
I am going to be magnanimous on Sunday.Gloating is for wendyball.

ie not blame the ref?

I just feel loved now   not hated

quinsforever wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:I used to travel up to HQ for this game with Eastbourne  RFC  boys when we were putting out players like Mark Titley.Wales were regularly trounced.Much ribbing on the trip back down to the coast!
We had had our glory days and then it was England's turn.Fair play.
All good humoured stuff.
I am going to be magnanimous on Sunday.Gloating is for wendyball.

ie not blame the ref?

I will probably say that the ref favoured us though England's Kiwi hooker standing up at every scrum probably counted against them  

Gatland taught him all he knows about NZ hooker tricks.

gregortree wrote:Gatland taught him all he knows about NZ hooker tricks.

He would appear to be a very slow learner  

Pretty disappointed in brown care and the lad with the crap hair over this press interview,
They should look at warburton and north on how to speak to the press.

Walsh did not really understand it last year. Gatland told Dylan it would be ok.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Pretty disappointed in brown care and the lad with the crap hair over this press interview,
They should look at warburton and north on how to speak to the press.

that is the funniest thing i have read so far in 2014.

i rejoice at every spiky england player who says something with belief.

 At the good ol press. Nowell says your playing against players that hate you. 'Nowell in Wales hates us shocker'
Poor Sam Warbs says he's British Welsh and gets slated on social media by a MP. Albeit a plaid one but...

quinsforever wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Pretty disappointed in brown care and the lad with the crap hair over this press interview,
They should look at warburton and north on how to speak to the press.

that is the funniest thing i have read so far in 2014.

i rejoice at every spiky england player who says something with belief.

  

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Pretty disappointed in brown care and the lad with the crap hair over this press interview,
They should look at warburton and north on how to speak to the press.

How does North speak to the press?

Hywll !

SecretFly wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Pretty disappointed in brown care and the lad with the crap hair over this press interview,
They should look at warburton and north on how to speak to the press.

How does North speak to the press?

I seem to remember something about wanting a bloodbath against England.

I wasn't going to repeat the quote - of which there was more and the word 'hate' was used - but just refer to it

SecretFly wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Pretty disappointed in brown care and the lad with the crap hair over this press interview,
They should look at warburton and north on how to speak to the press.

How does North speak to the press?

today he talked about how fantastic England are and named a lot of players he has so much respect for.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/six-nations-george-north--in-rugby-terms-everyone-hates-the-english-8535422.html

George North wrote:Wales is a massive rugby nation. Every time we play England with the long, long rivalry it seems everyone wants to see a bloodbath. In rugby terms everyone likes to hate the English. They are a great team with a winning past

Epic fail on behalf of the thread really

slartibartfast wrote:We can all provide examples of good and bad fans.

For example in 91-2 when ever it was , an English mate of mine wore his English shirt  to Cardiff with pride. As we know Wales won 10 - 9. I've never seen anything like it since. Cardiff was bouncing.

My mate didn't cover up and we had no trouble.

We caught the last train "up the valleys" , he did his zip up in his jacket.

The train was traditional songs and the good ol chariot variations. It was like a scene from st. Trinians great train Roberry

Suddenly a welsh fan spotted my mates white top gleaming , he then proceed to entourage my mate to stand up and sing.

My mate stood up and the whole carriage fell silent with his 100 pairs of eyes staring at the sole English man.

He took a deep breath and proceed to sing two verses of swing low. I sat there frozen.

He fishied and sat down.

There was a brief pause before the carriage erupted into cheers and applause with people coming up and shaking his hand.

That was a moment I'll never forget.


The moral of the story is, no matter how hard we taught him he was a sh!t singer.



Only joking.


I think people need to make a difference between "fans" in a city pub who are just using the match as an excuse to get off their faces and true supporters who can appreciate the guy in the different coloured shirt also loves the sport.

  +1

Wore my shirt many times in Cardiff and always felt 100% safe and had a great night.

Edinburgh on the other hand is the only place where i have been verbally & almost physically attacked for being English.

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:Pretty disappointed in brown care and the lad with the crap hair over this press interview,
They should look at warburton and north on how to speak to the press.

How does North speak to the press?

today he talked about how fantastic England are and named a lot of players he has so much respect for.

Yeah its not North saying he hates the English, just pointing out it seems like his adopted countrymen do. Whereas he, as one, seems to have great respect for them.

Cuthbert and Jonny May are college mates who played at Hartpury together before Cuthbert was captured by aliens who fiddled with his head. Still mates though.

Metal Tiger wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:We can all provide examples of good and bad fans.

For example in 91-2 when ever it was , an English mate of mine wore his English shirt  to Cardiff with pride. As we know Wales won 10 - 9. I've never seen anything like it since. Cardiff was bouncing.

My mate didn't cover up and we had no trouble.

We caught the last train "up the valleys" , he did his zip up in his jacket.

The train was traditional songs and the good ol chariot variations. It was like a scene from st. Trinians great train Roberry

Suddenly a welsh fan spotted my mates white top gleaming , he then proceed to entourage my mate to stand up and sing.

My mate stood up and the whole carriage fell silent with his 100 pairs of eyes staring at the sole English man.

He took a deep breath and proceed to sing two verses of swing low. I sat there frozen.

He fishied and sat down.

There was a brief pause before the carriage erupted into cheers and applause with people coming up and shaking his hand.

That was a moment I'll never forget.


The moral of the story is, no matter how hard we taught him he was a sh!t singer.



Only joking.


I think people need to make a difference between "fans" in a city pub who are just using the match as an excuse to get off their faces and true supporters who can appreciate the guy in the different coloured shirt also loves the sport.

  +1

Wore my shirt many times in Cardiff and always felt 100% safe and had a great night.

Edinburgh on the other hand is the only place where i have been verbally & almost physically attacked for being English.

Was once refused entry to a pub in Richmond after a game coz I was wearing a Welsh jersey and might cause trouble.
Got banned on here for doing nothing so nothing changes  

I took 4 of my English mates to Wales NZ at the Millie, post game chatting with some Welsh fans in a bar some young lads got wind of them being English and kicked off. Serioulsy pathetic, but, in Hong Kong at the 7s it was 2 English fans who kicked off a fight with some Aussies.

Point is, like any walk of life there are people who discredit their national allegiance with personal behavior that, in my experience, most rugby fans regard as totally unacceptable.

Doing Nothing on 606v2 is offensive.  This site is strictly for wumming and 'stat'ing.

If you want to be a heavy breathing keyholer please go elsewhere.  I see the Recipies Section is in need of some more silent posters.

SecretFly wrote:Doing Nothing on 606v2 is offensive.  This site is strictly for wumming and 'stat'ing.

If you want to be a heavy breathing keyholer please go elsewhere.  I see the Recipies Section is in need of some more silent posters.

I reported a tiresome offensive oaf and got banned for it by someone who does not understand our culture.I would certainly not want to moderate an overseas website as I could not grasp the nuances of their culture.  

Wales is abroad you oaf   

Taffineastbourne wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Doing Nothing on 606v2 is offensive.  This site is strictly for wumming and 'stat'ing.

If you want to be a heavy breathing keyholer please go elsewhere.  I see the Recipies Section is in need of some more silent posters.

I reported a tiresome offensive oaf and got banned for it by someone who does not understand our culture.I would certainly not want to moderate an overseas website as I could not grasp the nuances of their culture.  

Did you get 72 hours? Oh I think I remember that one a few days ago.

SecretFly wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Doing Nothing on 606v2 is offensive.  This site is strictly for wumming and 'stat'ing.

If you want to be a heavy breathing keyholer please go elsewhere.  I see the Recipies Section is in need of some more silent posters.

I reported a tiresome offensive oaf and got banned for it by someone who does not understand our culture.I would certainly not want to moderate an overseas website as I could not grasp the nuances of their culture.  

Did you get 72 hours?  Oh I think I remember that one a few days ago.  

Yep.Not sure what I did as the bright spark didn't explain what exactly I had done.Quite disappointed really as I had respect for the bloke previously.There you go!

Well I am glad you got the ban. Because I got it as well.. just remember mate i didnt report your nasty posts- you reported mine- which then flagged yours up .So basically you got yourself banned!!

And if you wouldn't mind leaving the insults out - just get over it.

First its saddo and to get of the wales v england thread without any provocation.. then its offensive oaf .,.

It doesn't take a rocket science to work out who is being offensive mate..

So shall we just agree that we either think each other is an offensive oaf or not but whatever- lets draw a line under it!

Enjoy the game , I take it you are going!

The board and the sport is bigger than us..