Ali - Are we too harsh on him for his treatment of Frazier ??

Kentucky is a State situated in the upper South of the USA........Synonymous with racial violence and hostility as other states in the South were pre and post -Johnson's Civil rights bill...(Thankfully things have moved on).......Cassius clay was brought up in that hostility and no doubt as most of us are... was moulded to a large extent by his upbringing.....

The South of the USA was the home of segregation..........Police using dogs on non-violent protesters..........Blacks being forced violently away from polling stations when trying to register to vote........lynchings in some parts.....different schools....Ugly just plain ugly !!

Many people born into that prejudice would no doubt regard people of the same color who didn't speak out against that discrimination (or for it perhaps If you were white).. as part of the problem !!!......A kind of you are either with us or against us philosophy.....

Now I'm not saying Ali wasn't a hypocrite (we all are) but the vitriol he gets now for Frazier is generally in cold blood years later............America back in the 60s/70s was an entirely different place and animal............One tends to forget this...........Where racial tension was high !!.......

Ali chucked his medal away when he couldn't get served in a restaurant one remembers...

Now I don't think Frazier or Patterson were Uncle toms............In fact I have the utmost respect for both men who had great dignity and were honorable Men....

But I do think the vitriol Ali gets for his treatment of both is a tad unfair because people don't take into consideration his upbringing and factors that moulded his life and views........and the times in question !!

Easy to be wise after the event.....But context is always necessary in these things..

Interesting piece, Truss.

I definitely agree that Ali’s bigger detractors need to look at some of his early statements (meaning from when he first became a public figure up until his stance against the war in Vietnam and subsequent ban) in context. He made some shocking statements, but as you say, it was a volatile time in the States and Ali had legitimate reasons to feel pretty peed off with a country which hadn’t done much for him or his fellow black Americans. The sporting press painted him almost as a joke figure before he beat Liston, when he did beat Sonny those who didn’t like his confidence and attitude usually looked for reasons to say the fights weren’t on the level, and then of course he was in a long-running battle with the government over Vietnam.

The masses weren’t that kind to Ali during those years, and I can understand why he had no intentions of quietly appeasing them. Also have to remember how young Ali was at the time of all this; 18 when he won Olympic gold, 22 when he beat Liston and still only 25 when he was exiled. Fair enough, not a baby but still a young man with plenty of life experience ahead of him and maybe lacking a bit of wisdom which age brings. I know for a fact that I’d hate to be judged for the rest of my life on stupid things I said, daft opinions I held and naïve views I took about all kinds of things when I was a teenager or in my very early twenties. No doubt I’ll be saying a few more stupid things in the coming years!

But when it comes to his treatment of Frazier, I don’t think it can be as easily ignored. Said it many times, but the big irony of it all was that Frazier was exactly the kind of man who Ali claimed to be representing and giving hope to; southern origins, born and raised in poverty, basically no schooling and in general one of life’s underdogs (told he was too short to be a Heavyweight, originally didn’t make the ’64 Olympic team etc).

And if we’re talking context, then it’s understandable that any black man called an uncle tom during those years would naturally be fuming. Ali had a nasty habit of chucking that phrase around whenever he clashed with anyone black (Patterson, Joe Louis, Terrell, Frazier etc) and should really have known better than to keep reeling it out so often. Those guys were individuals on his side of life, so to speak, and definitely not part of the collective groups which had made his life so difficult. Fair enough, he may have been confused about why they never publicly tackled race issues the way he did, but not everyone can have Ali’s confidence and personality. I guess Ali forgot that most contemporary black writers of the time said that Louis’ quiet dignity had done a lot more to help their cause than Jack Johnson’s loud-mouthed, antagonistic approach had done.

Ali had experienced all sorts of troubles in his exile, and I think those experiences should really have left him a little more grateful and wise when he did return – particularly as Frazier had helped him out now and then financially during those years. I’m not one of those who thinks that fighters need to be angels all the time, and I like a bit of back and forth rivalry between a couple of guys, but singling Frazier out the way he did when his anger should really have been directed at much higher powers doesn’t reflect well on Ali, for me. Frazier shouldn’t escape scrutiny either, as eventually he gave almost as good as he got, but it was Ali who cast the first stones and who just never seemed to twig on that, while it may have been just pre-fight hype for the papers for him, Frazier took it all to heart.

More than interesting reply...........  

Maybe Ali misjudged silence for appeasement in the black struggle.......Maybe he mistook Nixon's glad handling of Frazier as surrender to the enemy........Who knows what went on in Ali's mind.........

But my point is... It was Ali's mind and like ours it had been moulded from experience.....and we aren't always rational...

Not defending his behaviour just saying the vitriol aimed at him for labelling Frazier maybe a bit harsh accounting for his early experiences and the times..

Interesting angle truss.

I genuinely don't know enough about Ali's younger days to know exactly what impact it had on him. However, one would imagine you don't change your 'slave name' and take up with the Nation of Islam (arguably as a bit of a puppet for them) if you don't have some strong views, based on life experience.

That said, it doesn't give him the right to say what he did. To assume that others have to act like him. If he had such strong principles he should have declined the help that Frazier gave him... And certainly not taken it and then taken pops at him afterwards. Like Chris says I think you can separate the pre exile rants, from the Frazier stuff.

The Frazier stuff had the usual tongue in cheek element to it, but some was nasty. The gorilla jibes, were just that, but you can understand frazier's resentment when his kids got grief at school. Personally, though I think Frazier should have got over it as the years passed. Ali was embarrassed by his rants as he matured, he's flawed like all of us, but realises he over-stepped the mark. I feel it was a shame that Frazier wouldn't bury the hatchet... Obviously a proud man and that's his prerogative, I wasn't in his shoes, but I'd suggest the hatred he carried was counter-productive and perhaps says more about him than the man who inspired it.

In this instance, the subject may be black and white, but the answer as usual is probably shades of grey.

Ali didn't throw his medal away -- it was a good story and little more (there was a lot of that in Ali's career).

Good stuff Milky.........

Haz isn't an Ali fan it seems...  

Love Ali as a fighter, but anyone who fired those kind of nasty below the belt comments at a man that went out of his way to help him when he down on his luck is bang out of order in my book. Being great does not excuse disloyalty or total disrespect towards a decent man just to make some headlines.

milkyboy wrote:Interesting angle truss.

I genuinely don't know enough about Ali's younger days to know exactly what impact it had on him. However, one would imagine you don't change your 'slave name' and take up with the Nation of Islam (arguably as a bit of a puppet for them) if you don't have some strong views, based on life experience.

That said, it doesn't give him the right to say what he did. To assume that others have to act like him. If he had such strong principles he should have declined the help that Frazier gave him... And certainly not taken it and then taken pops at him afterwards. Like Chris says I think you can separate the pre exile rants, from the Frazier stuff.

The Frazier stuff had the usual tongue in cheek element to it, but some was nasty. The  gorilla jibes, were just that, but you can understand frazier's resentment when his kids got grief at school. Personally, though I think Frazier should have got over it as the years passed. Ali was embarrassed by his rants as he matured, he's flawed like all of us, but realises he over-stepped the mark. I feel it was a shame that Frazier wouldn't bury the hatchet... Obviously a proud man and that's his prerogative, I wasn't in his shoes, but I'd suggest the hatred he carried was counter-productive and perhaps says more about him than the man who inspired it.

In this instance, the subject may be black and white, but the answer as usual is probably shades of grey.

 
Ali was accused of being a puppet for Elijah Muhammad and his cronies (who had some pretty radical -- nay cockeyed -- ideas). He was a great poster boy for them and they courted him before exploiting him accordingly.
 
Sports Illustrated boxing writer Mark Kram  painted Ali as such in his book: "Ghosts of Manila: The Fateful Blood Feud Between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier''
 
Here's a snippet on it:
 
"Kram's Ali is cruel (to his former patron Archie Moore, washed-up former champ Joe Louis and most famously Frazier); fearful (even after he twice whipped the ``unbeatable'' Sonny Liston); and untrustworthy (in numerous personal relationships and professional agreements). Worst of all to those who celebrated him for refusing to go to Vietnam in 1967, Ali, says Kram, was used by Elijah Muhammad and other Muslim leaders, with whom he had publicly aligned himself after winning the title in 1964.
 
"Current hagiographers have tied themselves in knots trying to elevate Ali into a heroic, defiant catalyst of the antiwar movement, a beacon of black independence,'' Kram writes. "It's a legacy that evolves from the intellectually loose sixties, from those who were in school then and now write romance history. The sad truth was that Ali was played like a harp by the Muslims, a daft cult with a long record of draft dodging from Elijah (who went to prison) on down.''
 
Though Kram, 68, appreciates the ring skills that helped transform the former Cassius Clay into the transcendent athlete of his era, he has long been skeptical of the Ali legend. Kram covered boxing for Sports Illustrated in Ali's heyday and later wrote about him for Playboy and Esquire. But only two years ago did he begin considering the idea of a book -- and only then at the urging of his son, Mark Jr., a sportswriter at the Philadelphia Daily News.
 
"He got me going on it and seemed to think it was a great, great story,'' the elder Kram said from his home in Washington recently. "That's what it is, a story, not a polemic.''
 
 
Kram, though, has resigned himself to the notion that some will never see his book as anything more than an attack on Ali, a man whose failing health prevents him from defending himself. And it must be said, Kram is awfully hard on Ali, and the Dennis Rodman comparison ("While he did not have the tattoos or the dyed hair that Rodman adopted, Ali was easily in his league when it came to brainless exhibitionism'') feels like a cheap shot.
 
Said David Remnick, editor of The New Yorker and author of "King of the World: Muhammad Ali and the Rise of an American Hero'': "When I wrote about Ali's fierce and nasty rejection of Malcolm X or his near-torture of Ernie Terrell and Floyd Patterson in the ring, I didn't pay Ali any compliments either. Kram is right when he says that Ali was ruthless and cruel in his rhetoric about Joe Frazier. On the other hand, as much as I respect Mark Kram, I don't think he is the only writer to have written with balance about Ali, nor do I think he's right when he dismisses too easily Ali's importance beyond the ring. Not everyone who has political importance is an original thinker. That said, I think Kram's book is extremely honest and valuable. I've always liked reading him.''
 
Ali, whose in-your-face style and leftist politics made him a one-time villain in many American households, is now a nearly unassailable public figure, thanks in large measure to documentary filmmakers, writers and heads of state. Kram says Ali has been wrongly deified.
 
"Increasingly over the years, I saw him being raised to a sainthood that wasn't there,'' he said. "So I decided to look at Ali through the prism of his three fights -- this trilogy with Joe Frazier -- and in particular to give Frazier his due place and raise Ali above a human cliche and put flesh and blood on him. Obviously I've been pounded for the effort.'' Added Kram, who is white: "I'm constantly being called a racist and [getting] threats at home on the phone.''
 
But should Kram be surprised by this reaction? "The point is I'm not trying to drag him down. I'm just trying to make him alive and give him some substance. According to my definition, a hero is never manipulated. He acts on his own, breaks from the normal ranks and goes to see what's beyond the hill,'' Kram said. ``The fact is that Ali was attached by puppet-like strings to the black Muslims. He did what they told him to do.''

Disloyalty ???.........Don't recall Ali asking Frazier to help him and I don't think for one minute Frazier got his licence back not thinking he had something to gain from it..

Like I said I have huge respect for Frazier........But you are speaking from a cold blooded point of view which is my point..

Had you encountered Ali's early struggles with segregation you may feel different..

But all opinions are welcome and you make valid points hogey...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Good stuff Milky.........

Haz isn't an Ali fan it seems...  

I am actually -- why would you suggest otherwise?

hazharrison wrote:

milkyboy wrote:Interesting angle truss.

I genuinely don't know enough about Ali's younger days to know exactly what impact it had on him. However, one would imagine you don't change your 'slave name' and take up with the Nation of Islam (arguably as a bit of a puppet for them) if you don't have some strong views, based on life experience.

That said, it doesn't give him the right to say what he did. To assume that others have to act like him. If he had such strong principles he should have declined the help that Frazier gave him... And certainly not taken it and then taken pops at him afterwards. Like Chris says I think you can separate the pre exile rants, from the Frazier stuff.

The Frazier stuff had the usual tongue in cheek element to it, but some was nasty. The  gorilla jibes, were just that, but you can understand frazier's resentment when his kids got grief at school. Personally, though I think Frazier should have got over it as the years passed. Ali was embarrassed by his rants as he matured, he's flawed like all of us, but realises he over-stepped the mark. I feel it was a shame that Frazier wouldn't bury the hatchet... Obviously a proud man and that's his prerogative, I wasn't in his shoes, but I'd suggest the hatred he carried was counter-productive and perhaps says more about him than the man who inspired it.

In this instance, the subject may be black and white, but the answer as usual is probably shades of grey.

 
Ali was accused of being a puppet for Elijah Muhammad and his cronies (who had some pretty radical -- nay cockeyed -- ideas). He was a great poster boy for them and they courted him before exploiting him accordingly.
 
Sports Illustrated boxing writer Mark Kram  painted Ali as such in his book: "Ghosts of Manila: The Fateful Blood Feud Between Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier''
 
Here's a snippet on it:
 
"Kram's Ali is cruel (to his former patron Archie Moore, washed-up former champ Joe Louis and most famously Frazier); fearful (even after he twice whipped the ``unbeatable'' Sonny Liston); and untrustworthy (in numerous personal relationships and professional agreements). Worst of all to those who celebrated him for refusing to go to Vietnam in 1967, Ali, says Kram, was used by Elijah Muhammad and other Muslim leaders, with whom he had publicly aligned himself after winning the title in 1964.
 
"Current hagiographers have tied themselves in knots trying to elevate Ali into a heroic, defiant catalyst of the antiwar movement, a beacon of black independence,'' Kram writes. "It's a legacy that evolves from the intellectually loose sixties, from those who were in school then and now write romance history. The sad truth was that Ali was played like a harp by the Muslims, a daft cult with a long record of draft dodging from Elijah (who went to prison) on down.''
 
Though Kram, 68, appreciates the ring skills that helped transform the former Cassius Clay into the transcendent athlete of his era, he has long been skeptical of the Ali legend. Kram covered boxing for Sports Illustrated in Ali's heyday and later wrote about him for Playboy and Esquire. But only two years ago did he begin considering the idea of a book -- and only then at the urging of his son, Mark Jr., a sportswriter at the Philadelphia Daily News.
 
"He got me going on it and seemed to think it was a great, great story,'' the elder Kram said from his home in Washington recently. "That's what it is, a story, not a polemic.''
 
 
Kram, though, has resigned himself to the notion that some will never see his book as anything more than an attack on Ali, a man whose failing health prevents him from defending himself. And it must be said, Kram is awfully hard on Ali, and the Dennis Rodman comparison ("While he did not have the tattoos or the dyed hair that Rodman adopted, Ali was easily in his league when it came to brainless exhibitionism'') feels like a cheap shot.
 
Said David Remnick, editor of The New Yorker and author of "King of the World: Muhammad Ali and the Rise of an American Hero'': "When I wrote about Ali's fierce and nasty rejection of Malcolm X or his near-torture of Ernie Terrell and Floyd Patterson in the ring, I didn't pay Ali any compliments either. Kram is right when he says that Ali was ruthless and cruel in his rhetoric about Joe Frazier. On the other hand, as much as I respect Mark Kram, I don't think he is the only writer to have written with balance about Ali, nor do I think he's right when he dismisses too easily Ali's importance beyond the ring. Not everyone who has political importance is an original thinker. That said, I think Kram's book is extremely honest and valuable. I've always liked reading him.''
 
Ali, whose in-your-face style and leftist politics made him a one-time villain in many American households, is now a nearly unassailable public figure, thanks in large measure to documentary filmmakers, writers and heads of state. Kram says Ali has been wrongly deified.
 
"Increasingly over the years, I saw him being raised to a sainthood that wasn't there,'' he said. "So I decided to look at Ali through the prism of his three fights -- this trilogy with Joe Frazier -- and in particular to give Frazier his due place and raise Ali above a human cliche and put flesh and blood on him. Obviously I've been pounded for the effort.'' Added Kram, who is white: "I'm constantly being called a racist and [getting] threats at home on the phone.''
 
But should Kram be surprised by this reaction? "The point is I'm not trying to drag him down. I'm just trying to make him alive and give him some substance. According to my definition, a hero is never manipulated. He acts on his own, breaks from the normal ranks and goes to see what's beyond the hill,'' Kram said. ``The fact is that Ali was attached by puppet-like strings to the black Muslims. He did what they told him to do.''

It's an interesting opinion and Ali is a marmite type....

Must say I'd rather have your opinion than some one from Sports Illustrated and the like.............I don't put as much value in journalists as you do Mate....

Because most of them share the same biased outlook we do..

'Ghosts of Manila' is a very, very good book indeed and anyone interested in Truss' topic here should give it a read. Although I guess if you're one of these really extreme Ali fanatics you should approach it with a bit of caution!

Have to admit that, in the early going, I thought Kram maybe was trying to be a bit too clever and extreme in highlighting Ali's darker side, as if he was the only one astute enough to pick up on it and therefore driving his point home a bit too much (I think milkyboy would call this McIllvanney syndrome). In fairness, a lot of what he said does have some basis, but the way he goes about explaining it did come across as a bit over the top now and then.

But as the book goes on it levels out nicely, and if those threats of violence against Kram over the book's content are true then whoever made the threats obviously didn't get to the second half or so of it, where Kram does fully acknowledge that the older, wiser Ali did row back from a lot of his statements on Frazier in later life, as well as praising his generosity to all sorts of causes toward people from all walks of life. Frazier's bitterness and subsequent comments about how he felt that Ali's condition was a punishment and karma for his previous actions also come under the microscope, so it's not all one-way traffic.

My opinion is along similar lines -- Ali has been incorrectly deified as some civil rights martyr when in fact he was duped by a cult leader who believed white people were created on an island. Anyone who buys into that shouldn't have their political views taken too seriously (in my opinion). They used him and he was naive enough to go along with it. I can empathise to a degree -- he was searching for a reason to rebel.

As a fighter he was magic but he was often wicked in his treatment of other fighters -- especially Frazier. That level of poison shouldn't be aimed at one sportsman by another -- certainly not in public (in my opinion).

The gold medal story sums Ali up for me.

My point is they lived in different times to us..........You don't know what it was like to live in those oppressive circumstances and neither do I......

Harsh words for harsh times.......

All this duping and searching for a reason to rebel is up to debate.......

He wasn't stupid.........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Disloyalty ???.........Don't recall Ali asking Frazier to help him and I don't think for one minute Frazier got his licence back not thinking he had something to gain from it..

Like I said I have huge respect for Frazier........But you are speaking from a cold blooded point of view which is my point..

Had you encountered Ali's early struggles with segregation you may feel different..

But all opinions are welcome and you make valid points hogey...

If someone was helping me pay my bills while i was out of work i would never stab them in the back mate, maybe its because i spent most of my life in the forces but i never forget who is on my side in life and even making money would not change my sense of loyalty to them. Ali is one of my all time heroes as a fighter, but just like Ray Robinson he was deeply flawed as a man.

Did Frazier pay Ali's bills.......

If I was banned and someone wanted to help me out of that ban...Because ...

1. He would never get respect as the top fighter without me..

2. He would earn probably ten times more for me than anyone else...

Should I be loyal to that guy ??.........Who's doing it maybe out of friendship but also out of self interest..

I don't know.........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:My point is they lived in different times to us..........You don't know what it was like to live in those oppressive circumstances and neither do I......

Harsh words for harsh times.......

All this duping and searching for a reason to rebel is up to debate.......

He wasn't stupid.........

So, you're saying I can't have an opinion because I didn't live in those times and my views are open to debate? What's the point of the thread then?

Ali supported racial segregation (I believe he once addressed the KKK on the subject) and believed that a black scientist named Yakub was responsible for creating the white race to be a "race of devils" through a form of selective breeding referred to as "grafting", while living on the island of Patmos.

Not saying that at all........

Not suggesting Ali's views or criticisms of Frazier were valid.........My point is he was a child of his times and you are speaking like me as someone who never lived through the day..

My view is we shouldn't be as harsh........

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Not saying that at all........

Not suggesting Ali's views or criticisms of Frazier were valid.........My point is he was a child of his times and you are speaking like me as someone who never lived through the day..

My view is we shouldn't be as harsh........

Why? Does Tyson get a pass for raping and pillaging because he was brought up in a tough ghetto in the '80s?

Ali had it easier than the black fighters that came before him -- largely due to the impact of Joe Louis (who he ragged on anyway).

Hardly the same Mate..

What's your point, though? Why should his treatment of Frazier be excused (or Frazier's subsequent treatment of Ali)?

I never said it should be excused...........

I said he shouldn't get as much vitriol for it without gaining an understanding of the times.

The funny thing is Frazier had a much poorer upbringing than Ali and had a far greater idea of the struggles of being black than Ali ever had. This passage from an article on the subject sums it up nicely for me.

In 1967, Ali, who at the time was Boxing’s Heavyweight Champion , was drafted to serve in Vietnam. Citing religious reasons, and as many remember, the undeniable truth that "No Vietcong ever called me person of African descent", refused to serve, or as he- to be fair, would put it, he refused to "travel 10,000 miles..to murder people"

In short order, Ali was stripped of his title, of his boxing license, and maybe most damning, of the widespread public support he had long enjoyed. The once beloved Champ was called un-American, labeled a traitor; meanwhile he was being used as a puppet of propaganda by the Nation of Islam.

Basically he was "running low", both in the finance and friendship departments.

Running low…but not on empty.

Because Joe Frazier was there.

Joe Frazier was a friend to Muhammad Ali, giving him much needed money privately, and possibly more importantly, a much needed voice of support publicly. Frazier, who had won the Heavyweight title in 1970, outspokenly lobbied for Ali’s reinstatement, be it to the media, or to the "powers that be" (up to and including President Nixon). This was of course not a completely selfless act on Frazier’s part; many considered Ali the "true champion", and Joe wanted the opportunity to cement the legitimacy of his crown. That fact withstanding, Frazier truly liked and respected Ali, and felt compelled to lend a hand when he was down.

Meanwhile, public sentiment shifted with respect to the Vietnam War, and this, most certainly coupled with the work of Frazier, resulted in Ali having his license reinstated in late 1970.

For many, the true Heavyweight Champion was back in Boxing.

For Ali and Frazier, the scene was set, not only for the "Fight of the Century" but for a well-earned thank you, for a warranted display of appreciation by Ali, for at the very least, an acknowledgement of all that Frazier had done.

The Fight happened. The thank you, the appreciation, the acknowledgement, it never came.

Instead of playing the foreign role of humble, appreciative friend, Ali wore the all too familiar hat of manipulative, mean-spirited, shamelessly self-promoting foe. Leading up to their now historic March 8, 1971 match, Ali questioned Frazier’s "blackness", he labeled him an "Uncle Tom", he portrayed him as out of touch with the black community…as a "puppet of the White Man".

Joe Frazier, who along with nearly a dozen siblings, was born, raised, and worked on, a subsistence farm in Beaufort, South Carolina, was having his "black credentials" questioned by Muhammad Ali.

That was the "thank you" Joe Frazier got.

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:My point is they lived in different times to us..........You don't know what it was like to live in those oppressive circumstances and neither do I......

Harsh words for harsh times.......

All this duping and searching for a reason to rebel is up to debate.......

He wasn't stupid.........

So, you're saying I can't have an opinion because I didn't live in those times and my views are open to debate? What's the point of the thread then?

Ali supported racial segregation (I believe he once addressed the KKK on the subject) and believed that a black scientist named Yakub was responsible for creating the white race to be a "race of devils" through a form of selective breeding referred to as "grafting", while living on the island of Patmos.

... And you have a problem with that view haz? Seems perfectly reasonable to me

I'm pretty sure I've seen you argue this point a few times now Trussy... Trying to sneak it through in the hope of less resistance?


At least this time we aren't arguing whether being called an "Uncle Tom" is that bad

Are you quoting from a book..........Hogey ?......Sounds like a piece from the Thomas Hauser biography......If it is it's from a pro Frazier source.....Not that it isn't true..

Frazier used Ali too......as you refer to in your post......

Frazier had a hard upbringing for sure but it was a different kind from Ali.......

I can see reasons for Ali's behaviour while not condoning it..

kingraf wrote:I'm pretty sure I've seen you argue this point a few times now Trussy... Trying to sneak it through in the hope of less resistance?


At least this time we aren't arguing whether being called an "Uncle Tom" is that bad

Hope you're aren't suggesting I've ever thought Uncle Tom was acceptable my friend..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Are you quoting from a book..........Hogey ?......Sounds like a piece from the Thomas Hauser biography......If it is it's from a pro Frazier source.....Not that it isn't true..

Frazier used Ali too......as you refer to in your post......

Frazier had a hard upbringing for sure but it was a different kind from Ali.......

I can see reasons for Ali's behaviour while not condoning it..

The article was published in a Chicago magazine a few years back mate, nothing to do with Hauser.
Ali's upbringing in a relatively well off family in Louisville was like Disneyland compared to life in rural South Carolina for a young black man, the truth is Ali was probably saying what he was told to say by the Nation of Islam mob, ironically the very people who despite having the financial means did nothing to help him while he was not earning from the sport, whilst Frazier was putting his hand in his pocket for his friend.
There's no good reason to betray a friend in my eyes no matter how much money and publicity are involved.

"The truth is Ali was probably" ..

Yes mate, but as an adult responsibility lies with those who say things not those that are whispering in their ear. Ali was not forced to take unnecessary cheap shots at a proud and decent man who called him a friend, for me that's wrong.

Joining the NOI was, for Ali, as it was for Malcolm X, not about 'rebelling'. Malcolm X has written about this fairly extensively, commenting that what inspired him about the NOI was the sense of pride and self-worth it imbued him with.

Ali and Malcolm X both grew up in the segregated South. From the day they were both born, like every other black American, they were constantly informed that they were inherently inferior. This idea was a constant and was not confined to violent, racist abuse. Even the whites whom they both encountered in their youth who treated them kindly still let them know, in no uncertain terms, that they were inferior. Malcolm X talks of his kindly white school teachers who gently explained to him that, he was black and, as such, was unfit for any job requiring intellectual exertion. It was this, rather than the intimidation and overt threats of racist violence, which more deeply affected Malcolm's sense of self. Malcolm's experiences were typical of the times and it is no stretch to suggest Ali suffered in the same way, especially considering that Ali has also made passing references to this.

Imagine being told, from the day you were born that you are genetically inferior. The NOI's doctrine not only allowed that it was fine to be black, but that being a black man was actually something to actively be proud of. I think it is difficult to understand just how powerful an influence Elijah Muhammad had over Ali without understanding the decades of self-hate black people had been conditioned to adopt by white society.

I agree with Truss, Ali was flawed but I think many people are far too harsh on him for his association with the NOI. His treatment of Frazier was awful, but Ali later acknowledged this. I don't think his abuse of Frazier makes him an immoral man, it was a mistake and one which Ali has apologised and shown contrition for.

Context is everything, Ali was a young and emotional man. Chris is right when he says that it is not fair to judge someone's character based on statements or views expressed when in their youth. I think it is especially unfair to do so given the circumstances of Ali's upbringing.

I've always suspected that Ali and Frazier's animosity was the result of a number of factors, rather than just race alone. Certainly a conflation of race and class, in any event. The gorilla jibes were bad enough for Joe, since it was often on that account that his children were apparently catching hell at school. The mockery of him as a stooge of the establishment, as some kind of Stepin Fetchit character, was the crowning indignity, not least because it came from a man whose background was positively middle class by comparison with that of the son of a sharecropper.

The worst thing for Joe was that he didn't possess the weapons with which to fight back - at least out of the ring. He wasn't articulate, couldn't do his own case justice and had to sit and suffer the barbs of the far more eloquent man. Ali was perfectly civil when he chose to be (mostly when he perceived no great threat to his boxing supremacy), even during those times of strife and nascent revolution in America and elsewhere. He made a different choice with Joe, partly to drum up business, partly because he did burn with understandable indignation, but partly, I regret to say, since Ali is a hero of mine as much as Frazier is, because there was a bullying, sadistic streak within The Greatest. A fairly basic definition of a bully is someone who picks as a victim one who can't fight back, and that's what Ali's taunting amounted to. Joe had to do his talking on the other side of the ropes; he earned his respect from Ali the hard way.

No doubt we all have feet of clay (no pun intended). Most of us are a bit wiser at 50 than we were at 20 or 30. There are a few lines, though, that we try not to cross at any age. Ali ignored these lines - the fact that maturity has enabled him to acknowledge his errors and the fact that he lived through extraordinary times do not excuse or provide a good reason for his behaviour, although they do at least explain what he did and show that he knows now that he was wrong.

It isn't for us to forgive or not to forgive; that was Frazier's prerogative alone and all we can do is to speak as we find. To me, it is inescapable that Ali's behaviour to Frazier was an abomination. It is widely and rightly condemned these days, although we also choose to balance that disapproval with an equally proper appraisal of the immense force for good that Ali represented. Ali was also a man who generated enormous extremes of opinion; the truth, as is usually the case, lies somewhere between them. He was given a lot of stick for his treatment of Frazier, just as he was praised to the skies for his accomplishments and his courage. The man himself invited such hyperbole and it is now probably too late to suggest that we were "too" anything on him.

Two fine posts from gentleman and captain.

No doubt that Ali was something of an incongruous paradox of conflicting beliefs and traits. A mix of nature and nurture like the rest of us.

He was my sporting hero so maybe I struggle with objectivity. For me I prefer to see the mark of the man in the fact he recognised his mistakes.

It may not be our place to say whether joe should have buried the hatchet.  We don't have ownership of his opinions and emotions, and this topic crops up often enough for opinion to be divided. My life experience tells me that those who hang on to the bitterness do so to their own detriment, but that's just my personal take... And I guess it boils down to an individual's personal threshold of 'unforgiveable'.

Re. bitterness..

Wonder how much of it is also the fact Frazier doesn't get as much acclaim for the "Fight of the century" as he should........

One could say that Ali beat Foreman's sloppy seconds in the post-century skirmishes.......They certainly would today If Ali was called Broner !!.......

When It mattered most when they were both undefeated Frazier beat Ali and yet he's consigned to being a guy Ali beat 2-1......

That must rankle...........How much we don't know either......

But great responses...........Meaty stuff..

Like many Ali was my first hero in boxing and over the years I've read a handful or two of books on him. My overriding feeling is that Ali had great energy, tremendous life force, he could really talk, was a comedian and was abundantly infectious. I think these factors cover up the fact he didn't really have much between his ears. A lot of what was coming out of his mouth was put there by other people even including his rhymes which Bundini helped write.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Re. bitterness..

Wonder how much of it is also the fact Frazier doesn't get as much acclaim for the "Fight of the century" as he should........

One could say that Ali beat Foreman's sloppy seconds in the post-century skirmishes.......They certainly would today If Ali was called Broner !!.......

When It mattered most when they were both undefeated Frazier beat Ali and yet he's consigned to being a guy Ali beat 2-1......

That must rankle...........How much we don't know either......

But great responses...........Meaty stuff..

 
There'll be an element of that I'm sure (Frazier felt kidded out of the second fight) but its been fairly well documented that the seething animosity Frazier -- a fiercely proud man -- held towards Ali stemmed from the often cruel mistreatment mentioned above.

I fully agree with your post hoagey even if it was an article published in a Chicago magazine.As a boxer Ali was brilliant but as a man he left a lot to be desired.He was manipulated by the Islam clerics even to the extent of having to ditch wives who wouldn't conform with the Islam faith.If you ever saw him as a guest on the Parkinson show you would realise how bitter and racist he was.He said "No white man was his friend" this despite having Angelo Dundee in his corner for most of his career.