Fernando Vargas vs Saul "Canelo" Alvarez

Inspired by Haz's thread, how do you see a Mexican sizzler between the two upstarts going ? You could say both young fighters were fast tracked into super matches with Trinidad and Mayweather respectively. Vargas had the tougher graduation and more grounded wins mind you.

Let's say it's the Vargas eve of the Trinidad and Canelo eve of Mayweather to gain clarity how does this one pan out ?

Cheers Rodders

Nice match up, Rodney. Vargas by UD for me, just the better all-round boxer of the pair and not as prone to taking breathers for certain periods of a fight the way Alvarez is.

I don't think Canelo has any chance of outboxing Vargas, and if they get in to a slug fest Vargas has the heavier hands and arguably the better chin, too. Vargas eventually got worn down by Trinidad (and later De la Hoya) but they had to throw the kitchen sink at him to eventually get him out of there, and Alvarez just doesn't have the arsenal they did.

Come to think of it, I don't totally rule out a stoppage for Vargas. But more often than not I think Fernando just saps Alvarez's confidence and forces him to mentally check out of the fight, going through the motions late on as he loses the verdict, similar to what happened against Mayweather.

Yeah agree with that assessment Chris , I'd probably say Vargas would possibly stop him. Although Fernando wasn't particular fast or explosive, he had very heavy hands and was a tough night for anyone. Vargas a little more talented and possibly tougher , late TKO Vargas for me.

Cheers Rodders

You guys over rate Vargas boxing skill............Quartey was coming off the loss to Oscar and Winky-Stinky was his only other stand out win for me......

There to be hit...........Slapped off Trinidad and Oscar.......and Mosley played with him.....

Hardly a ringing endorsement for him to cream a once beaten Alvarez.......

Alvarez can be outboxed but not by this guy..

I think it would be a war rather than a chess match...and Alvarez wears him down in 11..

Vargas would box his head off (the version pre-Trinidad). Alvarez still has a lot to prove.

Like he boxed Oscar's head off..........Complete mismatch..

You don't rate Oscar ...

The first Mosley fight was too and fro until his eye exploded, the second fight he looked a shell and was torn to shreds. Vargas was the perfect example of a fighter doing too much too soon but having to lose so much weight for every fight he didn't have much choice.

Too early to say regarding Alvarez, we still don't know how good he is.

But what we do know is//

"We should all get behind GGG because he is a real fighter!!" (GGG vs Andy Lee thread)

"Alvarez still has much to prove!!" .....From the same guy...

Interesting logic..

He was worn down by trinidad and de la Hoya and the first Mosley fight was wafer thin at the time of the stoppage.

I don't think we know canelo's true level yet, so it's not a straight forward call. On the eye test, I prefer Vargas as a fighter and would err to him. Ultimately he did get stopped late on by the best fighters he fought, so you can't rule out Alvarez wearing him down too.

It's true we don't know Canelos level , however if the match was made at a similar parallel to one another's career, I'd say Vargas was the more equipped and more talented. Vargas received a gift decision against Winky from what I can remember, however you'd favour Wright & Quartey heavily over Canelo at this point.

Cheers Rodders

Styles make fights don't they Rod..

Last time I looked Vargas and Canelo didn't have the same style.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Styles make fights don't they Rod..

Last time I looked Vargas and Canelo didn't have the same style.

I guess that's a killer attempting to debate fantasy matchups then.

Cheers Rodders

Vargas to win with something to spare.

Rodney wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Styles make fights don't they Rod..

Last time I looked Vargas and Canelo didn't have the same style.

I guess that's a killer attempting to debate fantasy matchups then.

Cheers Rodders

No that's you being silly..and sensitive.

Believe it or not Mate ..Most people thought Tucker had a better chance of beating Tyson than Douglas did.....Hence the odds..

Your point was meaningless...Styles make fights..Who is to say If winky struggles more with canelo's style....Winky was favorite for Vargas..

The winky fight was close I thought rodders. Wright was unlucky but not a robbery. Even allowing for that, along with quartey, its vargas' best performance.

Styles aside, you don't have a razor thin fight with winky without being useful. Wouldn't fancy Canelo against wright personally. But for durability reasons I wouldn't write off Alvarez against Vargas.

You don't hate anybody that fights these days.....That's the difference !!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Like he boxed Oscar's head off..........Complete mismatch..

You don't rate Oscar ...

Vargas, even the shopworn version that Oscar faced, still had enough in the tank to push Oscar hard (especially early) and De la Hoya was a far more proven performer than Alvarez, who's mainly feasted on undersized and over the hill opposition (Trout notwithstanding).

From what I've seen of Canelo, the version of Vargas that edged Wright and Quartey would have been too much for Alvarez.

Is about as meaningless as you blathering on about a 170lb Conn rocking Louis, when discussing fantasy matchups Truss. The point is Vargas had handled tougher foes than Alvarez that isn't up for debate, styles make fights and id favour Vargas on form and style.
Cheers Rodders

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:But what we do know is//

"We should all get behind GGG because he is a real fighter!!" (GGG vs Andy Lee thread)

"Alvarez still has much to prove!!" .....From the same guy...

Interesting logic..

In my opinion GGG is the absolute goods (an opinion I don't hold with regard to Alvarez). Golovkin also has much to prove (which I'm sure I stated in the thread).

I think I've only seen the fight once Milky , many moons ago, at the time I thought Winky won it , but memory is to hazed to plump by what margin. I'm happy to go along with that mate , might add that to the list to watch again.

Cheers Rodders

Vargas fought all the best light middleweights of his time and other than at the very end of his career he gave a pretty good account of himself whether he won or lost. Alvarez has basically had two proper championship quality fights. A narrow win against Trout where many felt he lost and he was then hopeless against Mayweather. Theres no shame in losing to Mayweather but that doesnt disguise that Alvaez was just plain poor in the fight. A past it de la Hoya and Cotto put in much better efforts. From what I have seen of Alvarez I think he would be out of his depth amongst the light middleweight scene Vargas fought in.

The Angulo fight is a step in the right direction, he gives everybody trouble but almost always falls short, the manner he's dealt with will tell us a lot.

Vargas was hyped to the hills when he first came on the scene but his career did dive bomb fairly quickly. No shame in losing to three greats but does show that he wasn't quite of the highest quality. Alvarez could follow the same path but he looks a tad better defensively so could surprise a few.

Will agree that Vargas looked better earlier in his career but we do know his level, getting outclassed by Mayweather tells us nothing.

Gun to my head Vargas by unanimous decision but wouldn't be plain sailing.

Trinidad absolutely wrecked Vargas, hence the dive bombing.

Whilst losing to Mayweather is no shame the manner of defeat may tell us something , as brilliant as Mayweather is Canelo was deplorable that night and looked as though he was carrying two anchors in his boots. Vargas would've gave Mayweather a much more uncomfortable evening pushing him all the way , Canelo seemed content not getting stopped, his lack of passion was disturbing.

Cheers Rodders

Rodney wrote:Whilst losing to Mayweather is no shame the manner of defeat may tell us something , as brilliant as Mayweather is Canelo was deplorable that night and looked as though he was carrying two anchors in his boots. Vargas would've gave Mayweather a much more uncomfortable evening pushing him all the way , Canelo seemed content not getting stopped, his lack of passion was disturbing.

Cheers Rodders

He was woeful. I turned it off after seven rounds -- awful to watch.

Yep. If a past it de la Hoya and Cotto could give Mayweather much tougher light middleweight fights it doesnt bode well for Alvarez if he had to deal with the kind of competition Vargas had. He just doesnt look in that league.

Didn't bode well for Starling against Honey...Losing twice to Curry when Honeyghan punched Curry out !!

Good point !!  

You are right TRUSSMAN, I was sleeping in class again. Alvarez KOs Every light middleweight in history apart from Mayweather. What page are we on again??

catchweight wrote:You are right TRUSSMAN, I was sleeping in class again. Alvarez KOs Every light middleweight in history apart from Mayweather. What page are we on again??

hazharrison wrote:

catchweight wrote:You are right TRUSSMAN, I was sleeping in class again. Alvarez KOs Every light middleweight in history apart from Mayweather. What page are we on again??

  

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

catchweight wrote:You are right TRUSSMAN, I was sleeping in class again. Alvarez KOs Every light middleweight in history apart from Mayweather. What page are we on again??

  

This is what happens when you win a debate......

I expect better from Catchy and Haz.........If not from this pathetic waste..

I'm not feeling loved......

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

catchweight wrote:You are right TRUSSMAN, I was sleeping in class again. Alvarez KOs Every light middleweight in history apart from Mayweather. What page are we on again??

  

This is what happens when you win a debate......

I expect better from Catchy and Haz.........If not from this pathetic waste..

And what debate would that be?? The one where you just randomly chose something wouldn't/didn't count? Or the one where you lied about polling statistics and had to run away with your tail between your legs after getting PROVEN wrong again and again and again......

We all know you're getting your knickers in a twist on this thread because there is a remote suggestion that a Floyd victim you bigged up wasn't anything special (like almost every other opponent you've bigged up).

This foe button really does get rid of cheap little stalkers.....  

Great invention..

hazharrison wrote:Trinidad absolutely wrecked Vargas, hence the dive bombing.

How differently it might have been if he hadn't slammed him in the gooseberries (again) and bought a bit of recovery time after the knock down in the fourth eh  

Seriously take away the first 30 seconds and the Tito fight wasn't that removed from the Oscar fight. Even coming back from his back injury he was tooth and nail with Mosley for 10 rounds, several years later.

Not sure Tito wrecked him, think he just didn't have the stamina to go 12 rounds with top quality opposition. Had the skills though... Boxed Trinidad's ears off in a couple of those mid rounds.

milkyboy wrote:

hazharrison wrote:Trinidad absolutely wrecked Vargas, hence the dive bombing.

How differently it might have been if he hadn't slammed him in the gooseberries (again) and bought a bit of recovery time after the knock down in the fourth eh  

Seriously take away the first 30 seconds and the Tito fight wasn't that removed from the Oscar fight. Even coming back from his back injury he was tooth and nail with Mosley for 10 rounds, several years later.

Not sure Tito wrecked him, think he just didn't have the stamina to go 12 rounds with top quality opposition. Had the skills though... Boxed Trinidad's ears off in a couple of those mid rounds.

Vargas had a little assistance in the Oscar fight (tested positive for steroids). Despite that he was never the same post-Trinidad. Ditto David Reid, both of whom jumped straight into world class and probably paid the price.

You're right about the knacker shots, though. Vargas was well on top at that point.

... Not like tino didn't have a bit of pop in that left hook. Makes your eyes water thinking about it.

I don't think we've seen enough of Canelo yet to make a proper judgement. He has one good win against Trout and one overmatched loss to Floyd. No shame in losing to Floyd, and, seemingly unlike many others, I saw a number of good points (amongst the parts he was made too look bad) in Canelo that night e.g. he's actually a decent defensive boxer. His offense was taken away from him that night, but we know he can punch and with decent variety.

This question will be easier to answer after he fights Angulo.

Wait for this weekend to judge canelos staminas issues etc will be a good fight on Saturday, and one that will tell us a lot about him