Is Warrenball dead?

Well is it?

It looks like smart teams have worked it out, so is it time for wales to go back to the drawing board?

I imagine the real test of "WarrenBall" will come next week, England and Ireland arguably, now, have better players than Wales, Italy were never going to beat Wales in Cardiff and France were shambolic. Wales have better and more experienced players than Scotland but Scotland are good enough to beat Wales, if Scotland find a way to beat Wales then indeed WarrenBall is dead, if Wales win, and deserve to do so, then WarrenBall simply has to be tweaked because there is no doubt that it is dying and the best teams will find it out, in fact the very best teams always coped with it.

No just needs some go forward from the front 5 otherwise it doesn't work!

The problem with Wales is that they've been to reluctant to tinker when they were high-flying and have left it too late - they've been worked out by the SH and now the NH. I don't think the Scotland result will be too influential - the damage is already done. Wales seem to always lose to Australia and they're now being beaten by England. A year is a long time in rugby but England are on the up with Burgess and Tuilagi to come, whereas Wales look to be falling from their peak. If they don't change course they could look forward to being ousted in the group stages of the world cup.

But it should be remembered Davies, Roberts, Lydiate, Warbuton and plenty of others haven't had injury free seasons and maybe aren't quite as sharp. Also maybe if players get a good French experience they'll come back as better players?

Wales have better and more experienced players than Scotland

They said the same before kick off at Twickenham.

Man for man better and more experienced. X number of Lions etc etc.

Just goes to show.

Keeping things in perpective, we said during the summer that Wales would be effected by the Lions tour the most. They look a little stale.


However I also agree that Warrenball has been worked out now and they need some new ideas.

Yes I think the basic tactis are dead - if you can tackle Roberts, North et al it won't win anymore. But give Halfpenny the licence to run back the ball like Brown does, then I think Wales can move on. Bish bash bosh does not beat better teams - when was the last time Wales beat New Zealand, South Africa and Australia? But there is a lot of ability there - it is just that Gatland needs to move on from 2005. It worked for Wasps but the game has moved on and even a so so England team can counter it.

I think any gameplan would be let down by their indiscipline and poor execution of the basics at the moment. I still think we have very good individuals, but you could see today England were the better team.

Warrenball is not dead. It just needs an an alternative if it doesn't work. Bring Halfpenny into the game in attack - I really really rate that guy.

dead no, it's very much alive and well. it's just no good is all.

It died in 2003.

quinsforever wrote:dead no, it's very much alive and well. it's just no good is all.

I'm no Gatland fan,but two six nations grand slams and a Lions tour is a pretty bloody good record.
No point in throwing the baby out with the bath water. It needs adapting - a some tweaking, but with the quality of players Wales has - no way is it dead.

Unfortunately for England...

ultra wrote:It died in 2003.

That would explain the zombie-like quality of some of the attacking play today.

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Wales are still a force but you have to say England are probably missing more first team players and look like had they had a full strength side they would have cantered home.

Where does this bring them to the World Cup?

England and AUS look like they are on the up, Wales on the other hand looked to have peaked and on the slide. It doesn't bode well for the World Cup and without some changes I think they will go out in the pool stages.

The winners today should think of how they felt last year after the Welsh game.  And then project to how they feel this year.  Is the feeling the same?  

No.

Time passes quickly and form changes.  Next year is when form must be spot on.  I humourously put forward the idea earlier in the week that Wales might actually prefer to lose to England this weekend as it instantly takes the 'win habit' burden off them.

Had they won today, the loss that was inevitably coming - on the grounds of odds alone against a side as good as England - was only being stalled and suspended for a duration.  Next year would not have been the ideal year for the inevitable to hit them.

So in a way, the pressure is off them again.  Now they have something to chase rather than something to defend.  Next year would be an ideal time to go on the boil again...and Gatland will be plotting it.

SecretFly wrote:The winner today should think of how they felt last year after the Welsh game.  And then project to how they feel this year.  Is the feeling the same?  

No.

Time passes quickly and form changes.  Next year is when form must be spot on.  I humourously put forward the idea earlier in the week that Wales might actually prefer to lose to England this weekend as it instantly takes the 'win habit' burden off them.

Had they won today, the loss that was inevitably coming - on the grounds of odds alone against a side as good as England - was only being stalled and suspended for a duration.  Next year would not have been the ideal year for the inevitable to hit them.

So in a way, the pressure is off them again.  Now they have something to chase rather than something to defend.  Next year would be an ideal time to go on the boil again...and Gatland will be plotting it.

It works in 3's. We beat Wales 3 games on the trot, then they beat us 3 games. That's only our first, so we get to beat them in the 6 Nations next year and the World Cup. Unlucky for Wales, bu that's just the way it's fallen.   

fa0019 wrote:Wales are still a force but you have to say England are probably missing more first team players and look like had they had a full strength side they would have cantered home.

Where does this bring them to the World Cup?

England and AUS look like they are on the up, Wales on the other hand looked to have peaked and on the slide. It doesn't bode well for the World Cup and without some changes I think they will go out in the pool stages.

I am not sure I agree with the bit in bold. The scrum would have been better, however poite rightly or wrongly, (I don't know what goes in the front row of the scrums, I am too busy eyeing up how to smash the 10 off the back of it!) decided Jenkins was causing the scrums to collapse and punished him, so I don't see how corbs or cole would have made as much difference.

BV may well have been more effective than BM however BM was closed down pretty successfully by the welsh defence.

Tuilagi would have brought more power to the English backline, however I don't think power is the way to beat our backline, sniping runs and little deft touches like 36's grubber through seemed much more successful than that.

so despite missing a few 1st team players I don't believe they would have had a huge amount of bearing on the game. I think Charteris was a huge loss to Wales though, from a few of the poor lineouts I believe his extra few inches would have made a difference, that and the fact AWJ was quite poor again and did nothing to warrant his return to the starting line up.

welshy824 (new) wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Wales are still a force but you have to say England are probably missing more first team players and look like had they had a full strength side they would have cantered home.

Where does this bring them to the World Cup?

England and AUS look like they are on the up, Wales on the other hand looked to have peaked and on the slide. It doesn't bode well for the World Cup and without some changes I think they will go out in the pool stages.

I am not sure I agree with the bit in bold. The scrum would have been better, however poite rightly or wrongly, (I don't know what goes in the front row of the scrums, I am too busy eyeing up how to smash the 10 off the back of it!) decided Jenkins was causing the scrums to collapse and punished him, so I don't see how corbs or cole would have made as much difference.

BV may well have been more effective than BM however BM was closed down pretty successfully by the welsh defence.

Tuilagi would have brought more power to the English backline, however I don't think power is the way to beat our backline, sniping runs and little deft touches like 36's grubber through seemed much more successful than that.

so despite missing a few 1st team players I don't believe they would have had a huge amount of bearing on the game. I think Charteris was a huge loss to Wales though, from a few of the poor lineouts I believe his extra few inches would have made a difference, that and the fact AWJ was quite poor again and did nothing to warrant his return to the starting line up.

Nowell running it back at you is one thing. Wade is quite another.

nobbled wrote:

welshy824 (new) wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Wales are still a force but you have to say England are probably missing more first team players and look like had they had a full strength side they would have cantered home.

Where does this bring them to the World Cup?

England and AUS look like they are on the up, Wales on the other hand looked to have peaked and on the slide. It doesn't bode well for the World Cup and without some changes I think they will go out in the pool stages.

I am not sure I agree with the bit in bold. The scrum would have been better, however poite rightly or wrongly, (I don't know what goes in the front row of the scrums, I am too busy eyeing up how to smash the 10 off the back of it!) decided Jenkins was causing the scrums to collapse and punished him, so I don't see how corbs or cole would have made as much difference.

BV may well have been more effective than BM however BM was closed down pretty successfully by the welsh defence.

Tuilagi would have brought more power to the English backline, however I don't think power is the way to beat our backline, sniping runs and little deft touches like 36's grubber through seemed much more successful than that.

so despite missing a few 1st team players I don't believe they would have had a huge amount of bearing on the game. I think Charteris was a huge loss to Wales though, from a few of the poor lineouts I believe his extra few inches would have made a difference, that and the fact AWJ was quite poor again and did nothing to warrant his return to the starting line up.

Nowell running it back at you is one thing. Wade is quite another.

May running it side-ways is one thing - Yarde running it at you is also another.

Yup, would love to have seen Yarde and Wade out there today.

I agree, it would had been great to see England's 1st XV in action today! 

Isn't that already England's 1st XV? They certainly seem to be playing better and winning in ways that Lancaster feels more appealing.

When does a 1st XV become natural 2nd choices again?

We've heard this all before. In 2007, 2009 and 2011 before the world cup. and what happened the season following those years. Another grand Slam. One poor tournament doesn't mean anything.

Surely it is the players who deliver or don't deliver that Warrenball that is the problem.

If it is not working who's fault is it? the players of course, after all their the ones trying to deliver this game plan.

AND its the opposition who are responsible for stopping you delivering the game plan. AND how can they do that ? by watching , analysing, your game plan then putting in the appropriate tactics. how do they know your game plan ? ITS THE SAME ONE EVERY GME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe Howley should be given control of the game plan, as they won the 6 nations last year.

I think Wales looked overcoached and very predictable

Maybe its time for Edwards to walk away, I still think that guy is angry about missing out on the Lions tour.

Might be worth the RFU making an offer he can't refuse and gaining insider knowledge about Wales for 2015.

Poland.  

Maybe it did/does mean more to Wales than they've ever admitted to?

It's been dispensed with now, I hear...but really, everytime those Welsh guys went there and allied the 'treatment' there to their hard, hard subsequent repeat training sessions, it was like Universal Soldiers coming out the other end.  Even Adam Jones ran around the field like a young fella and scarcely ever looked out of breath even in a full-on 80 minute game.

I've often had fun with this area but I'm genuinely not joking now.  I think Welsh players have had absolutely none of those huge reserves of energy that usually made the difference between them and other sides in recent years.

Maybe Gatland believes it might have been a bit much to really try to juice them up again so soon after the Lions tour.  Maybe he's giving Unmerciful Punishing Boot Camp techniques a rest for a while to let the players off the hook a little in the lead in to 2015?

Beware Wales....and the cute hoor machinations of Gatland.  Afterall, it was the shock value of just how good Wales seemed to be at the last WC that took many of their challengers by surprise and made them the talk of the town.  Is he lowering expectations again?

Was Wales any good at the last RWC?

Which top teams did they beat?

Scrumpy wrote:Was Wales any good at the last RWC?

Which top teams did they beat?

You know what I'm saying Scrumpy. Only an Irish ref fluffed up their growing rhythm

But they didn't beat any team ranked higher than themselves if I remember, even if Warbuton hadn't seen Red there was no guarantee they would have won that game.

Scrumpy wrote:But they didn't beat any team ranked higher than themselves if I remember, even if Warbuton hadn't seen Red there was no guarantee they would have won that game.

There was better odds of it happening without the Red .

No...the Welsh were the talk of the town, as I say - we all know that.  Impressed all the lovely folk down in SH land.  And Gatland did spring a surprise there.  He might feel the need to come in under the radar again when it most suits him.  I repeat - Beware Gatland and Wales into next year.  Disregard them at your peril.  Lancaster won't.

We were somewhat unlucky against South Africa, particularly when it looked like Hook's kick (I think) was possibly over. We were good in the World Cup. It would be quite ignorant to suggest otherwise.

Scrumpy wrote:But they didn't beat any team ranked higher than themselves if I remember, even if Warbuton hadn't seen Red there was no guarantee they would have won that game.

All ifs and buts, but we did lose by a point when we had 14 men for about 60 minutes, that French team was abysmal till the final.

It would be good to see some sensible Welsh insight on here to the discussion at hand. But, following the loss on Sunday, and the demise of the Welsh WUMs, it seems there isn't a Taff available for comment...

Jimpy wrote:It would be good to see some sensible Welsh insight on here to the discussion at hand. But, following the loss on Sunday, and the demise of the Welsh WUMs, it seems there isn't a Taff available for comment...

Ok I'll bite, warrenball works if the opponents are not as fit as Wales and are prone to make more mistakes. Against defensively well organised and fit teams it never works because its so one dimensional. It worked against England last year because the intensity we brought to the break down blew them away, the tries scored were relatively simple (and largely thanks to weak defending from Brown), except for perhaps a moment of brilliance from Tipuric to take out 2 defenders.

IronMike wrote:

Jimpy wrote:It would be good to see some sensible Welsh insight on here to the discussion at hand. But, following the loss on Sunday, and the demise of the Welsh WUMs, it seems there isn't a Taff available for comment...

Ok I'll bite, warrenball works if the opponents are not as fit as Wales and are prone to make more mistakes. Against defensively well organised and fit teams it never works because its so one dimensional. It worked against England last year because the intensity we brought to the break down blew them away, the tries scored were relatively simple (and largely thanks to weak defending from Brown), except for perhaps a moment of brilliance from Tipuric to take out 2 defenders.

YEp totally agree its a very conservative strategy and goes against wales traditional way of playing. Ive felt with Gatland that lots of people would hold their nose and get behind it while they were winning. Scotland is no a very big match, unless their is a massively improvement in performance and style of play you could here rumblings it has been a welsh tradition to celebrate a slam with a period of infighting and coach sacking normally just before a world cup

Rugby is a game of momentum and at the moment Warrenball is not providing Wales with any momentum. Some of the senior players look jaded and whereas in recent memory they would be driving through the tackle or popping a cheeky offload, now they are simply taking the tackle and making basic errors which limit any momentum. Gatland ball isn't dead but needs some refreshing. This team yesterday were lacking direction at half back, were kicking (tactically) poorly, and were making lots of unforced errors. Further, the scrum can't be relied on to be a potent Welsh weapon under the new laws. Bring all that together and the momentum's gone and the game with it.

IronMike wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:But they didn't beat any team ranked higher than themselves if I remember, even if Warbuton hadn't seen Red there was no guarantee they would have won that game.

All ifs and buts, but we did lose by a point when we had 14 men for about 60 minutes, that French team was abysmal till the final.

But France did enough to win against 14 men, had there been 15 men they might have played better, all history now though!

Your only as good as your last game imo.   

I don't think Warrenball is dead, but Wales need to be more flexible in their tactical approach when it clearly isn't working.

It would also be much more successful as a tactic with better kicking from hand. Wales's kicking and chasing yesterday was terrible. Practically every single article I read in the press before the game highlighted that Wales would have to avoid kicking long to Mike Brown and giving him space and time, but in fact that seemed to be Wales's go-to option whenever they couldn't think of anything else to do. Mystifying.

If Wales could find a fly half with a good boot (Biggar?) and get their lineout working well, that would give them a decent alternative to the abovementioned Warrenpong.

Oddly I think that Wales could beat Scotland comfortably either with Gatlandball or Warrenpong, so I'm not sure it matters too much which of these game plans he uses in order to win the match - but if change to something completely else is needed in time for RWC 2015, then I honestly can't see a better opportunity for starting to move towards that than against weak opposition with a complete donkey for a coach

I'm confident it's not dead. Whether it ought to be may be a different matter. Gatland is nothing if not stubborn. I just don't know whether there is enough nous in the coaching set up to produce anything different, anyway.

When SL took over England, he cleared out the old hands and brought in young and inexperienced lads and now the team is looking a lot better side than it did before he took over.

Maybe Wales or rather (Warren Gatland) should think about doing the same, letting go of some older players and bring in younger players for the better of Wales.

My take is that when the pack are being beaten the half backs, particularly the 10, get the blame. They are constantly on the back foot with no go forward ball. Your problem is more to do with the pack being beaten than the half backs.

majesticimperialman wrote:When SL took over England, he cleared out the old hands and brought in young and inexperienced lads and now the team is looking a lot better side than it did before he took over.

Maybe Wales or rather (Warren Gatland) should think about doing the same, letting go of some older players and bring in younger players for the better of Wales.

He got rid of the all the old players that didn't have the right attitude. He wanted to build a new culture within the squad and raise what it meant to play for England. If you didn't want to come for the ride then there was no way you were getting on the bus. Lancaster has done a brilliant job in those respects. What I particularly like is how he and his coaches have learnt from their own mistakes and there have been a few along the way.

englandglory4ever wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:When SL took over England, he cleared out the old hands and brought in young and inexperienced lads and now the team is looking a lot better side than it did before he took over.

Maybe Wales or rather (Warren Gatland) should think about doing the same, letting go of some older players and bring in younger players for the better of Wales.

He got rid of the all the old players that didn't have the right attitude. He wanted to build a new culture within the squad and raise what it meant to play for England. If you didn't want to come for the ride then there was no way you were getting on the bus. Lancaster has done a brilliant job in those respects. What I particularly like is how he and his coaches have learnt from their own mistakes and there have been a few along the way.

He got rid of those with the wrong attitude. He also got rid of any player who would not make the RWC. The plan was to ensure young players had enough experience in 2015. This is starting to bear fruit.

Other countries should have done the same. The Welsh props and Irish centres spring to mind.

What's wrong with the welsh props?

They are both world class and will destroy the English scrum!!!!

 

Can they both make the RWC?

Exiledinborders wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:When SL took over England, he cleared out the old hands and brought in young and inexperienced lads and now the team is looking a lot better side than it did before he took over.

Maybe Wales or rather (Warren Gatland) should think about doing the same, letting go of some older players and bring in younger players for the better of Wales.

He got rid of the all the old players that didn't have the right attitude. He wanted to build a new culture within the squad and raise what it meant to play for England. If you didn't want to come for the ride then there was no way you were getting on the bus. Lancaster has done a brilliant job in those respects. What I particularly like is how he and his coaches have learnt from their own mistakes and there have been a few along the way.

He got rid of those with the wrong attitude. He also got rid of any player who would not make the RWC.  The plan was to ensure young players had enough experience in 2015. This is starting to bear fruit.

Other countries should have done the same. The Welsh props and Irish centres spring to mind.

That sounds like 20/20 hindsght talking in Wales's case. IIRC, Gatland brought through a lot of young players prior to RWC2011. He was lauded for having brought through young players and developed a squad that would be even better in 2015. Pundits and English fans (and even some Irish fans) lamented the fact that Wales were 18 months further ahead in their preparations than their rivals.

But Gatland has proven inflexible in his tactics, and teams have worked out how to counter them. The game plan also appears to be very dependent on having players who can perform their specific roles very precisely, and suffers when players are injured and their replacements aren't quite as well suited. Which is a problem, because I think Gatland overtrains them.

Wales's squad aren't - or shouldn't be - too old. I think the pack is younger on average than England's 2003 pack. But the props have struggled to adapt to the new engagement, and the injury rate in the squad as a whole would worry me if I were a Wales fan. Robshaw and Brown are older than Warburton and Halfpenny, for instance, but compare their respective injury rates.

Poorfour wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:When SL took over England, he cleared out the old hands and brought in young and inexperienced lads and now the team is looking a lot better side than it did before he took over.

Maybe Wales or rather (Warren Gatland) should think about doing the same, letting go of some older players and bring in younger players for the better of Wales.

He got rid of the all the old players that didn't have the right attitude. He wanted to build a new culture within the squad and raise what it meant to play for England. If you didn't want to come for the ride then there was no way you were getting on the bus. Lancaster has done a brilliant job in those respects. What I particularly like is how he and his coaches have learnt from their own mistakes and there have been a few along the way.

He got rid of those with the wrong attitude. He also got rid of any player who would not make the RWC.  The plan was to ensure young players had enough experience in 2015. This is starting to bear fruit.

Other countries should have done the same. The Welsh props and Irish centres spring to mind.

That sounds like 20/20 hindsght talking in Wales's case. IIRC, Gatland brought through a lot of young players prior to RWC2011. He was lauded for having brought through young players and developed a squad that would be even better in 2015. Pundits and English fans (and even some Irish fans) lamented the fact that Wales were 18 months further ahead in their preparations than their rivals.

But Gatland has proven inflexible in his tactics, and teams have worked out how to counter them. The game plan also appears to be very dependent on having players who can perform their specific roles very precisely, and suffers when players are injured and their replacements aren't quite as well suited. Which is a problem, because I think Gatland overtrains them.

Wales's squad aren't - or shouldn't be - too old. I think the pack is younger on average than England's 2003 pack. But the props have struggled to adapt to the new engagement, and the injury rate in the squad as a whole would worry me if I were a Wales fan. Robshaw and Brown are older than Warburton and Halfpenny, for instance, but compare their respective injury rates.

yes, he had to get them before their English eligibility saw them playing in white...