Is Warrenball dead?

First topic message reminder :

Well is it?

It looks like smart teams have worked it out, so is it time for wales to go back to the drawing board?

[quote="tecphobe"]I think Wales looked overcoached and very predictable [/quote]

I think stale is a better description.

The Welsh team have had Gats for to long add to that the Welsh Lions and the majority of players are just going through he motions

"the majority of players are just going through he motions".

Is that a kind of male emotion?

"he motions"

- when players on a rugby pitch keep throwing their arms up, and looking around seeking to deflect blame, or otherwise shift the spotlight away from their errors

D'arcy should make the RWC for Ireland. He's playing well. And Marshall has had gametime too. Probably less than I'd like though.

At 13 it looks like we're being sneaky and waiting for the more than capable New Zealander, Jared Payne to turn into an Irishman later this year. Can't say I'm delighted about that but the rules being what they are it does make complete sense. Play O'Driscoll now in the knowlege that a fully formed 28 year old pro will become available soon.

wrong thread there feckless?

No I scanned this entire Wales oriented thread, ignored 99.9% of it, and reacted to exiledinborders mention of the Irish centres actually. I'm a bit biased like that.

On warrenball, there was never any mystery to it. The Welsh never surprised anyone but their attitude was "try and stop us".

They're being stopped now because their pack is being beaten. Give those backs the ball and they'll still be dangerous. The pack needs to improve in all areas.

Feckless Rogue wrote:No I scanned this entire Wales oriented thread, ignored 99.9% of it, and reacted to exiledinborders mention of the Irish centres actually. I'm a bit biased like that.

  

The Welsh backs were having some very dubious ball kicked away from them though, by their very own players.  

It began to look like Ireland of recent years...kick, don't chase.  
I think Gatland might have been trying SchmidtBall B-4.6 (as used against Wales itself) but ended up using Kidney M-6.3 instead.  The kicks weren't in the right places or to the right people and not enough aggressive chase juice was used.

agree fly. of all the back 3's to overkick to (especially without effective chase), i would not do it to England or France.

i dont think i've ever been able to say that about england before. how novel!

I think Warrenball has been worked out now in some detail. England and Ireland knew how to counter it and had the organisation and players to do it. It seemed to me that what we saw was two sides hammering the nails into the coffin of a style - if not a side. Wales beat France who have NO organisation, and I think they'll beat a Scotland who don't seem at present to have the players, I'm sorry to say - and a complete muplet* of a coach.

IF they can vary it or develop a plan B then Warrenball might have a future as part of a variety of tactics that can be used. But at present it looks like Blitzkrieg in WW2: devastating until worked out, but not a long term method of crushing all opposition.

* muppet with a mullet

I don't think so. The real reason it has failed this year is poor execution. Players looked jaded and tired. It is effective when played with intensity, physicality and with a low error count as has been the case in recent years.

If the current first team are unable to execute then Gats will change them for ones who can. Come next year the players will be refreshed, fitter and hungry. That is the time to make a judgement

Feckless Rogue wrote:D'arcy should make the RWC for Ireland. He's playing well. And Marshall has had gametime too. Probably less than I'd like though.

At 13 it looks like we're being sneaky and waiting for the more than capable New Zealander, Jared Payne to turn into an Irishman later this year. Can't say I'm delighted about that but the rules being what they are it does make complete sense. Play O'Driscoll now in the knowlege that a fully formed 28 year old pro will become available soon.

D'arcy is already looking past it. He is not the player he was a few years ago. At the moment He can just about make it in a pretty good team. By the time of the RWC I doubt it.

As for assuming an uncapped player will definitely make the grade that is a risky strategy. Plenty of players look good in domestic and HC rugby but cannot step up to international level.

dragonbreath wrote:I don't think so. The real reason it has failed this year is poor execution. Players looked jaded and tired. It is effective when played with intensity, physicality and with a low error count as has been the case in recent years.

If the current first team are unable to execute then Gats will change them for ones who can. Come next year the players will be refreshed, fitter and hungry. That is the time to make a judgement

It has never been effective against the top sides.  When was the last time Wales beat a top SH team. The truth is that the other NH teams have been pretty poor for a few years. England and Ireland are now starting to improve. England are gaining experience and will improve more. Ireland now have a good coach and should improve if they can replace one or two ageing key players.  Gatlandball will continue to work against Scotland, Italy and also France as long as they have an idiot for a coach.  

As for replacing the current players with others who can execute is that realistic?  Wales do not have strength in depth. The players in the Welsh squad are pretty much all the quality players they have.  Judging by the thrashing the under twenties received on Friday there would not appear to be much prospect of that changing.

Feckless Rogue wrote:D'arcy should make the RWC for Ireland. He's playing well. And Marshall has had gametime too. Probably less than I'd like though.

At 13 it looks like we're being sneaky and waiting for the more than capable New Zealander, Jared Payne to turn into an Irishman later this year. Can't say I'm delighted about that but the rules being what they are it does make complete sense. Play O'Driscoll now in the knowlege that a fully formed 28 year old pro will become available soon.

I really hope he can put his head injuries behind him, and get some much deserved luck in the build-up to the world cup. If he has any more I think he should be considering his future in rugby for his own safety.

Cowshot wrote:I think Warrenball has been worked out now in some detail. England and Ireland knew how to counter it and had the organisation and players to do it. It seemed to me that what we saw was two sides hammering the nails into the coffin of a style - if not a side. Wales beat France who have NO organisation, and I think they'll beat a Scotland who don't seem at present to have the players, I'm sorry to say - and a complete muplet* of a coach.

IF they can vary it or develop a plan B then Warrenball might have a future as part of a variety of tactics that can be used. But at present it looks like Blitzkrieg in WW2: devastating until worked out, but not a long term method of crushing all opposition.

* muppet with a mullet

I like that, Cowshot, I think it could catch on - you should TM it!   

Exiledinborders wrote:As for replacing the current players with others who can execute is that realistic?  Wales do not have strength in depth. The players in the Welsh squad are pretty much all the quality players they have.  Judging by the thrashing the under twenties received on Friday there would not appear to be much prospect of that changing.

You can't really come to that conclusion from a single game. They were runners up in the U20 6N and at the Junior World Cup last year.

The Bachelor wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:As for replacing the current players with others who can execute is that realistic?  Wales do not have strength in depth. The players in the Welsh squad are pretty much all the quality players they have.  Judging by the thrashing the under twenties received on Friday there would not appear to be much prospect of that changing.

You can't really come to that conclusion from a single game. They were runners up in the U20 6N and at the Junior World Cup last year.

I would suggest that since they were on the end of a 60+ thrashing, you probably can actually.

Exiledinborders wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:I don't think so. The real reason it has failed this year is poor execution. Players looked jaded and tired. It is effective when played with intensity, physicality and with a low error count as has been the case in recent years.

If the current first team are unable to execute then Gats will change them for ones who can. Come next year the players will be refreshed, fitter and hungry. That is the time to make a judgement

It has never been effective against the top sides.  When was the last time Wales beat a top SH team. The truth is that the other NH teams have been pretty poor for a few years. England and Ireland are now starting to improve. England are gaining experience and will improve more. Ireland now have a good coach and should improve if they can replace one or two ageing key players.  Gatlandball will continue to work against Scotland, Italy and also France as long as they have an idiot for a coach.

Once again not really true. Wales have put themselves in a number of position to beat Aus and SA in the last 2-3 years but have been let down by individual errors sometimes within minutes of the finish line. You may well quite reasonably argue the limitations of the players to cope with the pressure etcetc but had they executed correctly then Warrenball may well have claimed a number of victories over the SH in recent years.

Remember we are discussing the system not Wales' ability to exceute it. It could also be argued that Warrenball did just win a Lions series for the first time since 97

Just!

  

[quote="englandglory4ever"]"the majority of players are just going through he motions".

Is that a kind of male emotion?[/quote]