What a Lions hang over looks like

Let's face facts. Wales have looked ordinary this six nations.

Against England their kick chase was non existent, the ruck was lacklustre, players we are accustomed to seeing barreling into the defensive line; punching holes were subdued. Even Faletau mustered only a few decent carries. Wales looked largely like they wanted to leave the hard work to someone else. When Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins are out scrummed by the same characters they destroyed a year earlier you know something is amiss.

The welsh performance was largely summed up as halfpenny flattering to deceive by some typically extraordinary long range accuracy.

The ball was carelessly knocked on, turned over, passes went behind players and careless, lazy options were taken.

Does this take away from England's performance? No. England were more than competent. The ruck work pushed Poite all the way to his very lenient boundary, the set piece was accurate and the veil of professionalism that is settling over England looked fitting (blockers were in place for each kick, Hartley again managed a fistful of indiscretions at vital moments whilst avoiding a sanction beyond penalties and Farrell's restarts were typically excellent). All of these things are the mark of a world class team. All of the World Cup winners were adept at these things and the England coaches have done a great job of finding the line here. England are certainly not naive, in their youthfulness.

But it had to be said, Wales were frankly well off the level we've seen them play.

I don't want to labour this point, but I predicted it. No act of analytic genius, just simple observation. I estimated Wales had one great effort left in them - pride demanded it. It came against France after the shocking performance turned in against Ireland a fortnight earlier. From then, with players having laid down their market I always felt Gatland would struggle to get the players up again. Nonsense! I hear you cry! England is the most important match of the year for a Welshman. Well yes, that's true. But there is a wide margin between feeling the motivation of the old foe approaching, and having the mental and physical reserves to deliver on that emotion. What happens in this scenario? In a word, frustration. Over playing. Over trying. Thrashing. When North and Roberts kicked recklessly rather than playing patiently this is what was delivered.

What does a lions hang over look like? Just watch the replay.

Well done to the increasingly impressive england. Will deserved victors, who now have a great chance of a six Nations title to match their triple crown.  Did we see anything new? Not really. Brown still looks the most likely back. Nowell still seems out of his depth to me. May is ordinary, seems in dire need of some coaching about DIRECTION. The team again lost impetus when Hartley departed, and I'd really like to see something different than the workman like Farrell at 10. Don't get me wrong - I'm not deriding England. They are indeed developing into a RWC threat. But I don't feel this performance added anything to that delivered in the loss to France.

yes GE, we get it. England are crap... or as you call it "competent"

Wow. That's not what I'm saying at all. Merely contrast Ireland's peformance giants a similarly lacklustre welsh display and England lacked some "zip". I was a little disappointed that they didn't capitalise and really lay down a marker, inflict some psychological scars.

GE. Why do you make such efforts to troll this forum? You clearly know your rugby but you continuously post things intended to cause strife and to annoy folk. You were warned yesterday. You caused threads to be removed with your trolling.

Why do you do it? Please just flounce off as you threatened to yesterday

There is no trolling in there. Just an honest reaction.

I'm not going to discuss the thread removal yesterday as that was dealt with line privately between myself and the moderation team.

Please feel free to engage on any point you think is unfair and we can discuss it! That's what a forum is all about.

Your constant denials of trolling don't wash. we all know what you are doing. Its not big and its not clever. Now please - you said you were flouncing off yesterday. Please do so.

TJ I'm not going to engage with this line of interrogation. Please
Comment on the content of the thread in the spirit of debate or simply ignore it.

This is the spirit of it. Sew dissent and strife. You know it, I know it and your denials are ridiculous. Just an unpleasant antagonistic troll

You were publicly warned over the trolling yesterday. You caused a thread to be removed by causing a row. Its not big and its not clever. How do you like your threads wrecked - you don't do you.

I agree with TJ, how much more of these "posts" by GE do we have to take.

England wernt that good but Wales were even worse. Its been a poor standard 6 nations all round when you look at the lack of quality. Wales definitely suffering from Lions hangover

A better side would have destroyed Wales today and better opponents wouldnt have lost to that England. The southern hemisphere sides have watched this with little to fear for the 2015 RWC

Nathan please tell me what exactly you are taking issue with? In my opinion I've said nothing inflammatory. Are we not allowed to critique and disect further than commenting on whether player A is better than B? And effusive congratulation to the victor?

Did you not think Wales looked off the pace today? Let's take the kick chase for instance? England's was far
More enthusiastic did you not think?

Troll. Don't deny it - it makes you look even more ridiculous. Its obvious what you are doing. troll

I also agree with you TJ though doing so tends to elicit allegations of a 'personal vendetta', be warned.

Thank you. Its very obvious what you do GE. Carefully crafted so there is little the mods can do as its possible to argue you are not breaking the rules but its obvious the intent to cause argument and strife is there. Trolling is not big and clever you know

Steffan wrote:England wernt that good but Wales were even worse. Its been a poor standard 6 nations all round when you look at the lack of quality. Wales definitely suffering from Lions hangover

A better side would have destroyed Wales today and better opponents wouldnt have lost to that England. The southern hemisphere sides have watched this with little to fear for the 2015 RWC

Wales have probably performed well once in a long long while now.

England's games against France & Ireland were very good. Today's game was good & England produced a solid if not spectacular performance & the game went to form.
Ireland & England have been consistently good this year. Last year no one was consistent & many games were dire.

Yes Trev. Ireland's consistency has certainly massively improved this year - contrast to their bizarre form in NZ where one week they were a late drop goal from victory and the next week caned 60-0.

What's your feeling on welsh inconsistency? Lions fatigue? Or Something else?

Wales were pretty poor. I also agree with a lot of what GE says. Better chasing and clinical teams would've had a lot more joy v England today. Brown afforded too much space. May being allowed to run sideways wouldn't happen v better teams. Better teams would probably have finished the half chances that North and Doc kicked away (though I don't actually think Lydiate would've scored from the North one, as I'm not sure he'd have had the pace). Doubt many other teams would turn their back on Care like that.

Guys - GE kindly informed me he has blocked me but my advice to you all is "don't feed the troll" Don't give him the attention he craves. You know what he is doing - trying to stir up arguments.

Yep rev, that's all I'm saying. There was an uncharacteristic sloppiness to Wales today. Doesn't take away from England's win. But if I were a welsh fan I wouldn't be overly depressed.

Playing at 100% and being put to the sword is a different thing to realising your team can do the same thing 20% better - the margin wasn't so insurmountable.

TJ wrote:Guys - GE kindly informed me he has blocked me but my advice to you all is "don't feed the troll"  Don't give him the attention he craves.  You know what he is doing - trying to stir up arguments.  

Says the guy constantly talking about him on this thread...

He doesn't like me calling him out on his trolling at all. :-)

TJ wrote:He doesn't like me calling him out on his trolling at all.  :-)  

I dont know the guys posting history much. Not sure whether I rate the guy or not

I agree with this article either way. 2 average sides on the park today and the least poorest one. Neither would threaten a SH side based on that. Wales look tragic at the moment

Steffan - he trolls continuously. cleverly designed to be just inside the rules but to cause as much strife as possible. He has told me in a PM he has blocked me, he was publicly warned yesterday. I will probably be in trouble for this from the mods but I am sick of him wrecking good threads with his trolling and causing dissent and strife.

TJ,

You seem to have had a good week and been ever so diplomatic. I was considering sending you to sort out Crimea. However you now seem wound up and perhaps it is time to leave the boards for the night.

I would suggest also it may be time to put GE on Block/Ignore/Foe. I miss some really good posts because of it, but wading through the rest to find the good is not worth the effort.

:-)  I'll leave it alone now  - my point made I think.  I ain't wound up and angry at all. merely tired of a tiresome troll so thought I would call him out.  I am disappointed he didn't actually carry out his "threat" to flounce off that he made yesterday after being publicly warned off for trolling on multiple threads. the troll didn't much like being called out on it and having his thread wrecked did he. Dishes it out but can't take it.

Ahem, back on topic.

What's the consensus? Are england really this improved to have turned around a massive deficit in one year? Or does this mythical hang over thing really account for the inconsistency in Wales this year?

Thing is, it was the basis of my correct predictions. Id like to get some thoughts on whether the reasoning is valid, or whether I just lucked out. Correlation is not always causation as they say.

I have to say I'm not as familiar with your posting history as others in this thread, and so while I'm unsure if this is trolling, I do think you inserted a few backhanded compliments to what was a deservedly winning England today there! But I'm happy to throw in my two cents, benefit of the doubt and all that!

While I do think part of Wales current malaise is down to not getting any summer break between seasons because of the Lions tour, I think there is a slightly deeper fall from grace at play, precipitated by another year of indecision and poor planning by the WRU, and a crashball gameplan that takes a massive toll on players (both physically and psychologically). I don't think the Lions tour can be blamed for the type of game Wales are currently trying to play, it may just be a system that had worked, but has now played out, and its time to go back to the drawing board. Personally, I'd like to see them play something that isn't such a colossal waste of what are some very good ball players

Would I say that that game was the best we have seen from this young England team? Definitely not, but it should not be taken in isolation. They have been consistently impressive and, alongside Ireland, have been head and shoulders above of the rest   They have come a long way since the hiding in Cardiff last year. They set out there stall today and worked to a plan which wales played right into, and in the end, the scoreline flattered Wales in defeat. You won't always look glorious in victory, being able to be professional and see games out is just as important. Something that Wales will have to discover.

Also not sure why you think Farrell doesn't deserve the England 10 jersey. Last year he capitulated in Wales under pressure, this year he was solid on his penalties, and tactically put Wales on the back foot all game. He has grown as a player. I agree there could be better wingers that Nowell (he may be place-holding for Yarde or Wade), but him and May are only about four caps in. And they have acquitted themselves fine to date.

Steffan wrote:

TJ wrote:He doesn't like me calling him out on his trolling at all.  :-)  

I dont know the guys posting history much. Not sure whether I rate the guy or not

I agree with this article either way. 2 average sides on the park today and the least poorest one. Neither would threaten a SH side based on that. Wales look tragic at the moment

Wales, tragic….it's a good way of putting it.

I dispute that England won't threaten the SH playing as fearlessly as that. They won't have it their way but right now i hope Quins and the other major clubs fail miserably in the latter half of the season and England can field a full strength 2nd string side…..lawes and launchbury will be a 2nd row combo for years to come, Care sniped like a well known troll (but i think Care is probably taller) Farrell and brown superb kicking, England have 2 centers, a fizzing back 3. Manu, Croft, Yarde, Cole, Corbisiero, Parling, Billy not even playing.

Good job i am half english

To be fair I think GE's opening post is fair enough. Wales were well below the level they can play at today. England I thought were generally very good but gave away too many stupid penalties at the wrong moments. As an England fan there were times I got worried when Wales started to play like Wales and look dangerous and it wasn't till the last 10 that I felt England were truly safe.

Obviously some of Wales looking so bad was because England put them under huge amounts of pressure but I think there was more than that and I think a lions hangover did play a part. Not only that but England had a lot to prove, Wales didn't. Ultimately I think the English side is only going to improve whilst the Welsh side will struggle to improve at the same rate.

Lets start with the kicking game, I thought there were some terrible kicks and aimless kicks by both teams, apart from a few lovely grubbers many of the kicks had no purpose.

I thoyght both Halfpenny and Brown competed well for the high balls, but when the kicks were deep, Brown was more incisive.

What I didn't understand was even when the Welsh pack changed gear early in the second half and managed to punch holes in the England defence, they still didn't find the space out wide.

The Welsh scrum was a reverse of last years match, the trickery well seen by Poite in this match and also well penalised.

At the breakdowns the Welsh often had the tackler somehow find himself in the way of the supporting player which gave time to their tackle assist to win the ball.

It worked well, but only when the pilferer stayed on his feet, at other times too many bodies on the ground and were then penalised.

The welsh running onto the ball is direct and has been for some time, in the past it worked and they managed to hit holes and break tackles, but 5 years on, it has become predictable.

Surely there is better use of North and Cutbert as battering rams?

At times there was some excellent offloading which really does create gaps and mismatches, but it doesn't yest look polished and "working" well enough to really benefit the offloading team.

I think Ireland has shown they are most adept at it currently.

For me Wales needs a new Flyhalf. Gatland seriously needs to stop the trickery and inspire his team to more positive ways.

I don't think England's backline is anywhere near the class of Wales, but at least they try to be less predictable. The only players in the English backline I thought played well was Care and Brown, the others have not impressed me much, although Burrell looks like a good player.

Anyhow, based on this, I think Ireland's attack is best in the Six nations this year, they seem to find space more readily available and look more enthusiastic in attack.

England's seems laboured and Wales' too direct.

nathan wrote:I agree with TJ, how much more of these "posts" by GE do we have to take.

Agreed it is beyond tedious seeing this constant trolling. Obviously he thinks he is being terribly clever by dressing up the remarks designed to trigger a response with a bit of window dressing, but please, please can we just be rid of it.

Think I agree with GE and Biltong's posts largely. Wales made us look good in some areas, notably through a non-existent kick chase. Also, I do not understand why Halfpenny doesn't counter more, it can't/shouldn't be fear of being turned over as Warburton is quicker to most rucks than our back row, and the Welsh backs are very decent at ruck time.

Yeh I agree with GE's opening post and Biltongs assesment. A bit premature to throw the towel in on Nowell and May. Only 7 caps between them? May looked quite threatening with ball in hand yesterday but lacked that all important composure. I do think Yarde and Wade are the future and that Ashton fella cannot be ruled out altogether. Engs backline has the potential but our attacking play IS laboured and lacks some serious dynamism.
When we go to NZ in the summer, I suggest SL take a hypnotist with him and try to lure Wayne Smith once more   

Wales are clearly capable of more than they displayed yesterday. The question is whether they are constrained by a coaching regime that has run out of ideas, or whether the ideas are right and the players are unable to implement them properly.

Kicking behind the line is the correct thing to do - England rush for 80 minutes if not turned around regularly. Both NZ and France proved this in their recent victories. However the welsh execution of the grubber and chip were lacking. We know these guys can do it, so why not yesterday?

My opinion is that it is big match fatigue. It's too much of a coincidence to ignore. But I'm happy to entertain other notions should someone post a better rationale.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Wales are clearly capable of more than they displayed yesterday. The question is whether they are constrained by a coaching regime that has run out of ideas, or whether the ideas are right and the players are unable to implement them properly.

Kicking behind the line is the correct thing to do - England rush for 80 minutes if not turned around regularly. Both NZ and France proved this in their recent victories.  However the welsh execution of the grubber and chip were lacking. We know these guys can do it, so why not yesterday?

My opinion is that it is big match fatigue. It's too much of a coincidence to ignore. But I'm happy to entertain other notions should someone post a better rationale.

Hard to disagree really. Some more subtlety and the odd 13 man lineout typoe surprise tactic wouldnt hurt gatlandball but the principle remains sound when executed well, as proven in Aus and against England last year and France this year. The problem all the 6 nations sides have is that the arent good enough to steamroll the others even when playing badly, unlike the All Blacks.

In summary England and Walers : Not the best teams in the world.

Anything new? Nope.

The actual reason for the sub par performance..well thats a bit conjectural really. Theres all sorts of things to look at...fatigue, lack of desire (especially with the title effectively gone anyway),"lions hangover", general form of certain players, reffing not suiting them, distraction from the domestic situation, the "new" twickenham crowd, and that they lost the pre match media mind games war this year. How much any of those factors really affected them is anyones guess.

'England were more than competent. The ruck work pushed Poite all the way to his very lenient boundary, the set piece was accurate and the veil of professionalism that is settling over England looked fitting (blockers were in place for each kick, Hartley again managed a fistful of indiscretions at vital moments whilst avoiding a sanction beyond penalties and Farrell's restarts were typically excellent). All of these things are the mark of a world class team. All of the World Cup winners were adept at these things and the England coaches have done a great job of finding the line here. England are certainly not naive, in their youthfulness.'

Saying we play like NZ is praise indeed!

No 7&1/2 wrote:'England were more than competent. The ruck work pushed Poite all the way to his very lenient boundary, the set piece was accurate and the veil of professionalism that is settling over England looked fitting (blockers were in place for each kick, Hartley again managed a fistful of indiscretions at vital moments whilst avoiding a sanction beyond penalties and Farrell's restarts were typically excellent). All of these things are the mark of a world class team. All of the World Cup winners were adept at these things and the England coaches have done a great job of finding the line here. England are certainly not naive, in their youthfulness.'

Saying we play like NZ is praise indeed!

Steady on! I said they were professional! Not godlike and pseudo-infallible!

You're starting to move back to supporting England. Don't resist.

Of course there has been a Lions Hangover - and of course Wales with the most have been hit hardest. not the only team though. The number of players they have in france is also causing problems.

Scotland - Hogg, Gray, Grant and Maitland all had injury or form issues this season.
Ireland - Bowe, Zebo, BoD, Sexton all had injury or form/tiredness issues.
England - Youngs (x2), Cole, Parling, Manu, Barritt, Wade, Croft all had injury or form issues.


The human body needs rest and the lack of an off-season coupled with inadequate pre-season has affected many players.

I guess the SH brethren will be calling for the quick tap penalty to be outlawed now.

Not quite sure I agree with the Lions hangover.

Wales' two halfbacks did not go on the Lions tour. Surely in the backs you look to your 9 and 10 to control proceedings? You had the inexperienced Webb and the flaky Priestland.

When you compare the halfbacks of England and Wales there was a notable class difference and this reflected on the pitch.

Care and Farrell bossed proceedings for England whereas Webb and Priestland seemed devoid of ideas.

Wales have struggled in the halfbacks for some time. It's one area that Gatland needs to seriously address.

When you look at arguably the two best sides this 6 nations - England and Ireland - they have the best starting halfbacks in the competition. No coincidence that 3 of the 4 went on the Lions tour.

Wales did not utilise their best players enough in my opinion. Faletau was rarely used in the first half as a ball carrier. Cuthbert barely got the ball etc.

Alun Wyn Jones and Jonathan Davies - were clearly rusty - just coming back from injury.

Tactically Gatland got it wrong. Far too predictable. England in contrast mixed things up nicely and poured the pressure on Wales, kept them guessing.


Wales are a good side but need to to make a few selection changes and Gatland and his coaches must make some tactical changes.

Very good point that London Tiger. The notable advantage that England have had is that they haven't had to play many of those players (only Cole has started a 6N game) whereas the others have. The "Lions' hangover" is clearly a factor as if you were picking a Lions team/squad now it would look very different than just 9 months ago.

Wales' performance has nothing to do with a Lions hangover. England and Ireland both had almost as many players on tour as Wales and Ireland in particular had probably the most Lions related injuries to key players.

Can we please quash this myth finally?

in my opinion Wales have a two in a row hangover more than anything else. Any team that has just won back to back championships will struggle to motivate themselves to compete for a third. Furthermore, to try to win a third without evolving the team tactics and being a little less predictable is virtually impossible.

Wales are struggling because:

Their gameplan has not evolved.
and because they won the last two championships.

It has nothing to do with the Lions tour!!!!!!!!

GunsGerms wrote:Wales' performance has nothing to do with a Lions hangover. England and Ireland both had almost as many players on tour as Wales and Ireland in particular had probably the most Lions related injuries to key players.

Which means as with England,m they had fresh hungry players.

Looks like the one match rest did BOD the world of good, you should write a letter of thanks to Gatland.

Alun Wyn Jones and Jonathan Davies - were clearly rusty - just coming back from injury.

Beshocked, im just not a fan of his at all. Think Wales have better locks...i cant understand why he was rushed back in the team.

Hang on, I'm confused.

We were told prior to kick off that the Welsh were going to drub the English because they had 10 Lions in the match day squad whilst England had one or two.

So now they saying they got beat BECAUSE they had 10 Lions?

Doesn't add up.

Gunsgerms agree.

Plus Wales lost away to Ireland and England - arguably the two form sides in the competition. Always going to be tough for Wales.

Also as already said these two sides have probably the best half backs too.

Don't buy the Lions effect. Wales won the 6N last year but up to the last game were fairly average (so far, a bit like this year). And according to the mantra France should have run away with it this year. And they're pants again. The biggest effect may be injuries to a few specific players, rather than a team effect.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Wales' performance has nothing to do with a Lions hangover. England and Ireland both had almost as many players on tour as Wales and Ireland in particular had probably the most Lions related injuries to key players.

Which means as with England,m they had fresh hungry players.

Looks like the one match rest did BOD the world of good, you should write a letter of thanks to Gatland.

How did England have fresh hungry players? Most of England's best players were on tour.

BOD has a habit of proving doubters wrong when he has been written off. He has done it his whole career.

He was always going to have a big tournament though because it is his last chance, nothing to do with Gatland.