What a Lions hang over looks like

First topic message reminder :

Let's face facts. Wales have looked ordinary this six nations.

Against England their kick chase was non existent, the ruck was lacklustre, players we are accustomed to seeing barreling into the defensive line; punching holes were subdued. Even Faletau mustered only a few decent carries. Wales looked largely like they wanted to leave the hard work to someone else. When Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins are out scrummed by the same characters they destroyed a year earlier you know something is amiss.

The welsh performance was largely summed up as halfpenny flattering to deceive by some typically extraordinary long range accuracy.

The ball was carelessly knocked on, turned over, passes went behind players and careless, lazy options were taken.

Does this take away from England's performance? No. England were more than competent. The ruck work pushed Poite all the way to his very lenient boundary, the set piece was accurate and the veil of professionalism that is settling over England looked fitting (blockers were in place for each kick, Hartley again managed a fistful of indiscretions at vital moments whilst avoiding a sanction beyond penalties and Farrell's restarts were typically excellent). All of these things are the mark of a world class team. All of the World Cup winners were adept at these things and the England coaches have done a great job of finding the line here. England are certainly not naive, in their youthfulness.

But it had to be said, Wales were frankly well off the level we've seen them play.

I don't want to labour this point, but I predicted it. No act of analytic genius, just simple observation. I estimated Wales had one great effort left in them - pride demanded it. It came against France after the shocking performance turned in against Ireland a fortnight earlier. From then, with players having laid down their market I always felt Gatland would struggle to get the players up again. Nonsense! I hear you cry! England is the most important match of the year for a Welshman. Well yes, that's true. But there is a wide margin between feeling the motivation of the old foe approaching, and having the mental and physical reserves to deliver on that emotion. What happens in this scenario? In a word, frustration. Over playing. Over trying. Thrashing. When North and Roberts kicked recklessly rather than playing patiently this is what was delivered.

What does a lions hang over look like? Just watch the replay.

Well done to the increasingly impressive england. Will deserved victors, who now have a great chance of a six Nations title to match their triple crown.  Did we see anything new? Not really. Brown still looks the most likely back. Nowell still seems out of his depth to me. May is ordinary, seems in dire need of some coaching about DIRECTION. The team again lost impetus when Hartley departed, and I'd really like to see something different than the workman like Farrell at 10. Don't get me wrong - I'm not deriding England. They are indeed developing into a RWC threat. But I don't feel this performance added anything to that delivered in the loss to France.

You know there is another very good reason why Wales didnt play great...or win....the 15 people in White opposite them!!!!

Biltong wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Biltong wrote:Just want to add, the "Lions hangover" is a misnomer.

Wales has just about their best team playing, it is the manner in which they play not the personnel that is the problem

What does that say about Aus then? Walews were weakened by having to pick token English and Irish players yet won there.

This is the point. Wales as we all know are stacked with world class talent and Gatlandball is the system thats served them to a series of stunning victories over anyone on their day. Now suddenly they are losing 50% of games, despite playing against boys who hardly have any lions caps.
Is it not possible that the weight of those caps is hard to carry and affects the players?

Or are we just saying the Welsh are overated?

Australia is not relevant here.

Gatland has been hanging onto the same game plan for 5 years now, it is predictable. simple as that.

Reminds me of blackadder goes forth series.

Melchett:       Good man. Now, Field Marshal Haig has formulated a brilliant new tactical plan to ensure final victory in the field.

Blackadder:     Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?

Darling:       How can you possibly know that Blackadder? It's classified information.

Blackadder:     It's the same plan that we used last time, and the seventeen times before that.

Melchett:       E-E-Exactly! And that is what so brilliant about it! We will catch the watchful Hun totally off guard! Doing precisely what we have done eighteen times before is exactly the last thing they'll expect us to do this time! There is however one small problem.

Blackadder:     That everyone always gets slaughtered the first ten seconds.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Where exactly is the supposed fatigue showing? The back row did what they always do against England and they won a fair few pens at the breakdown. North has been in good form.

Different perspectives, for me the Welsh back row looked jaded, and North has had some good moments this season, but is not firing as he did in australia.

As I said lots of other factors at play, but for me the majority of Lions players from all nationalities are not playing as well this season as they did last. the fact this is all countries means it should not be used as an excuse for any team losing, but is a valid explanation for some of the drop off in performance. Especially when you combine it with the sports science.

Of course the beauty of sport is that what is true today can be complete bunkum tomorrow.

It worked fine last year for Wales, and didnt Melchett win that war?

I agree with the comments on Nowell and May. Full of energy and enthusiasm, but neither are particularly effective. May's ability to beat defenders is excellent, but running sideways away from your support is schoolboy stuff, he needs to better channel his talents. Nowell is likewise full of running and enthusiasm, but a top quality winger would have scored that opportunity, and he just didn't back himself. I don't think Wade and Yarde have much to fear.

For all his "running sideways" May managed to move the ball forwards 98 metres this week, 80 against Ireland, and 92 against Scotland.

Pretty much the only player in the 6 nations to match that sort of yardage is Brown. Hes beaten 17 defenders over the 3 games.

Like the "Wales kick everything" the ineffectiveness of Mays running is exaggerated.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:It worked fine last year for Wales, and didnt Melchett win that war?

The tactic worked really well against England, where Wales managed to gain clear dominance at scrum time and in the last 20 minutes the physical power of the welsh backs dominated.

It also worked really well against Australia in the 3rd test, where th eLions managed to gain clear dominance at scrum time and in the last 20 minutes the physical power of the Welsh backs dominated.

A running theme.



As to General Melchett, to understand why the tactic won we would need to see the team meetings chaired by General Von Prussianponz:

"Vot are zey doink. Zey keep valking slowly tovards our guns. they know somethink clever - ve vill do the same"


(Please note the arrival of the Yanks and Tanks, winning the aeria, naval and of course economic battles had no part to play. It was all down the the German generals being more incompetent.)

Fair enough Tiger. I thought North looked dangerous against Aus when they put loose kicks to him. He still looked dangerous with ball in hand yesterday, playing for the Lions didn't come into it when he kicked that seemed a plan by Gatland, he just didn't realise Lydiate was available next to him. Not playing to the situation playing to the tactics.

The back row are like they always are to me. Can't see the jaded players.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:It worked fine last year for Wales, and didnt Melchett win that war?

Last year England were very inexperienced, Ireland and France both had rubbish coaches (France still have). It has never worked against New Zealand or South Africa. In short it is a tactic that works against average opposition but not against good teams.

May has infruiated me a couple of times by not backing himself...however i dont think him or Nowell should be dropped. Its there shirts to lose. Yarde and Wade have to be playing well.

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:I gave given lots of points, you just havent read them, dont understand them, or choose to ignore them. There are lots of factors why Wales arent performing well. the Lions tour isnt particularly one of them.

Au contraire - we are accepting that there are lots of reasons for Welsh underperformance, and that player fatigue is one of them. Not the most important, but one of them. you are denying it is a factor. That is fine you are entitled to that opiniuon - but not to slag us off for things we are not doing.

Im saying its a factor for 2/3 of the teams in the tournament and therefore not particularly relevant especially because the tour was a year ago.

Way too much is made of it.

The reason France have benefitted from it on occasion IMO is because they have had more time together because of their summer tour and possibly ahead in their development. Nothing to do with tiredness. Every team has a summer tour every year anyway.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:It worked fine last year for Wales, and didnt Melchett win that war?

Last year England were very inexperienced, Ireland and France both had rubbish coaches (France still have). It has never worked against New Zealand or South Africa.  In short it is a tactic that works against average opposition but not against good teams.  

Whereas the Burrell May Nowell outside line is positively brimming with experience right?

Letter from the WRU:

Very nice letter from the classy WRU to Brian O'Driscoll. Maybe the Welsh team and management dont hate the Irish players afterall.

It sounds sarcastic.

GunsGerms wrote:

Letter from the WRU:

Very nice letter from the classy WRU to Brian O'Driscoll. Maybe the Welsh team and management dont hate the Irish players afterall.

Apparently the one from the springboks is in the post!

And the one from the All Blacks was 'tipped' into a bin before posting

doctor_grey wrote:Look at how poorly and hungover Brian O'Driscoll played on Saturday.  
Wouldn't everyone want to be hungover like that?

Agree Doc, not very forward thinking of Gats- If he'd played BOD out in OZ he would be as hungover as the Welsh players- swings and roundabouts you reckon? Karma?

Karma indeed, mate!
And a touch or irony.

In my advanced age and my increasingly vain attempts to keep playing, I need to find what got O'Driscoll hungover and drink it by the gallon.

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Letter from the WRU:

Very nice letter from the classy WRU to Brian O'Driscoll. Maybe the Welsh team and management dont hate the Irish players afterall.

Apparently the one from the springboks is in the post!

With our postal service?

More like a pigeon was sent and it got lost.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:It sounds sarcastic.

Imagine if they sent two letters; that one and one that just says "NOT!!". Possibly written in crayon   

The secret ink version needs lights off and an infrared lamp. Try it Brian in the comfort of your own home.

Listened to Brian Moore's drivetime podcast last night. He had Sean Holley on as a guest and Moore asked him if the Wales players suffered this year due to some sort of Lions hangover. Holley responded that based on his almost 10 years coaching in Wales he see absolutely no way how the Lions tour could have effected the Wales players in this years six nations. In his opinion they have all had ample rest and there are other factors that are much more significant like the regions v WRU debates and playing in France etc.

That settles it then. Never could understand how this was mentioned as a reason for Wales stuttering for this season. Can we finally put this nonsensical myth to bed?

I would trust the opinions of a man who has been on a tour as a top player more than one who hadn't.

Old players such as Dillaglio says its true in his case. In 97 they played 14 matches though rather than 10, were less physically fit then they are now and SA is a far more physically draining place than AUS.

But its opinions I guess.

One thing is sure...Wales have never taken and utilised so many players in a generation on a lions tour though. Best people to ask are the English players from 93,97,01 & 05 tours (the last team to dominate squads and test teams).

Wales had the most tourists on the SA tour too. Have you any link to Dallaglio's article where he says Wales had a Lions hangover?

Claiming it had any effect defies all logic really if you actually think about it.

GG

No, its was an interview online I read or watched pre 6N. Can't remember where or what but its out there somewhere.

Its wasn't about the welsh... it was his views on who would win the 6N and he went with France.... because of the Lions hangover.

He said the French won in 98 and 02 because he and the rest of his teammates with England were simply knackered from the season before.

could be an excuse... but he doesn't really have much to prove.

fa0019 wrote:GG

No, its was an interview online I read or watched pre 6N. Can't remember where or what but its out there somewhere.

Its wasn't about the welsh... it was his views on who would win the 6N and he went with France.... because of the Lions hangover.

He said the French won in 98 and 02 because he and the rest of his teammates with England were simply knackered from the season before.

could be an excuse... but he doesn't really have much to prove.

Thats completely different Fa. France traditionally do well because they have had a tour together (in NZ) and therefore are often more cohesive than the other nations who have not played much together. So fair comments for Dayglo.

However to say Wales were poor becuase of a Lions hangover is inaccurate because the welsh players have all had as much rest as the English, Irish and Scottish players yet the Irish and English played the best rugby of the tournament.

The England players who went on tour hardly featured this year.

Cole, Vunipola, Farrell, Tiulagi & 36. (so 5 players)

compare that to

Jenkins, Hibbard, Jones, Jones, Lydiate, Warburton, Tipuric, Faletau, Phillips, North, Cuthbert, Davies, Roberts, Halfpenny (14 players)

who have featured for Wales in the 6N.

Ireland had what

Healy, Best, POC, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, BOD, Kearney (8).

not saying Wales did suffer but I think its a decent enough case. Its also how they are managed thereafter as the lions tour did end 6 months before the 6N begun.

More like 7 months. Ample time to recover.

fa0019 wrote:

not saying Wales did suffer but I think its a decent enough case. Its also how they are managed thereafter as the lions tour did end 6 months before the 6N begun.

Everyone keeps forgetting that these Welsh players that may or may not be suffering from Lions fatigue - these Welsh players were in Lions camp well before many of the Irish and English crew.  

Why?  Because for many of them their domestic club season was over early.
It's quite a few of the Irish and English players who had intense high level rugby games right up to the end of the season.  Who was doing most real work before the Lions tour and had to feed then into the Lions set-up without any breaks and back to playing through the lesser Lions games and Gatland's tough training environment?

Who gets to shout about fatigue being an issue at the end of a season like that?

Welsh players had an easy enough season before the Lions.  All that was required of them was to run through the 6N and then prepare for the Lions.

Fatigue is not an issue.  What perhaps IS an issue is that Gatland is probably taking the whip out of training levels for while to better allow the players to respond to the demands he'll again place on them in the lead in to the WC.  

In my opinion, Welsh players are off the boil because their training emphasises it...plus, because they met sides that have themselves upped their own fitness and conditioning levels to meet the standards set by Wales in recent years.

I remember John Hayes saying he put down his longevity in the game to in part not going as crazy in training as many of the young guns. How he suffered far less stress related injuries.

Perhaps that is an issue with the Welsh team... pushing themselves too far in training?

Yeah maybe. However, their recovery methods are meant to be fairly advanced arent they? Warburton does look like he over trains in fairness. Plus he is always injured. He is going to miss the SA tour.

the best are NZ... they way they manage their players are second to none.

Look at McCaw vs. Burger for instance..

120 caps vs. 70 in a very similar period.

McCaw has been available for something near 80% of games which is remarkable especially given the position.

I think McCaw is a bit of a freak though. How many injuries does he play through and how messed up is he going to be in his 50s?

They've led the way in sabbaticals (4 players have been on them), agreements between clubs and unions on player management and squad rotation. Even allowed chaps like Kaino to go away and play 3rd rate rugby at 1st rate salaries to keep players happy and fresh.

It should be a blueprint.

We do something similar in Ireland and either get laughed at for our cottonwool theories or get sly and envious put downs for having the temerity to use such methods

It should be the blueprint?

No - it'll never catch on, especially no in the new big buck sponsorship world of club rugby in Europe.  Best players will be used more and will earn their big salaries - this is club controlled rugby form here on in. Union control is dead in the water.

fly its not like your clubs nor your test side have done too badly mind... if anything since professionalism in terms of teams who have improved the most... it would probably be Ireland.

That from what they were in the amateur era to what they are in the professional era.

But it's over now...and in truth, many of the players actually publically said they found the cottonwoolisation of them counterproductive.

But it's over I'd reckon because all highly paid players will now have to earn their crust in the new dog eat dog maximum profit club controlled Europe.

I don't see sabbaticals been given out to many players to keep them fresh through International careers in any NH nation from here on in

Its interesting to see that none of the posts mention the fact that a Lions Tour and no real break do have a psychological effect on many players.

because many of us don't believe it?

SecretFly wrote:because many of us don't believe it?

except for when citing French superiority post Lions tours, then it is just a mercurial anomaly, coincidental synchronicity in the purest Jungian sense.   

Actually Fly's been pretty consistent before the 6N scoffing at the claims of a link between the Lions and French 6N. If I remember correctly he pointed out that the WC cycle is also 4 yearly and the French success is mid way through that cycle. Correlation does not equal causation and all that.

[quote="SecretFly"]because many of us don't believe it?[/quote]


But being "Stale" is a fact

Halfpenny : Player of the series, full Lions tour, next six nations gets injured and the welsh decide that "Sanjay" is better.

Brown: Pretty much the exact opposite.


Welsh: High lions participation, dip in form and results
French: No Lions participation, improvement in form and results (they were brilliant against England)
Ireland: Medium Lions participation, small improvement in form an results
Scotland: A joke.


Dress it up anyway you like people will make their own minds up as to whether to exaggerate the effect of a heavy summer tour schedule or not regardless of facts.

Meanwhile players unions continue to push for longer rests.

Its worth googling "Burn out"

There is interesting medical evidence about the psychological issues caused by too much game time. Much of it related to rugby players

Allty wrote:Its worth googling "Burn out"

There is interesting medical evidence about the psychological issues caused by too much game time.  Much of it related to rugby players

When you say 'burn out' everyone automatically thinks crash, working in rugby can get you as burnt out as playing trust me.

With regards to the whole 'Lions hangover' debate I think there are a lot of factors to consider;

For a start you need to consider performances of ALL players that toured, not just Welsh ones.

Then you have to look at injury rates, and compare them to players who didn't tour but rested.

Also the age and experience of the players involved, a 32 yr old tighthead is going to feel it far worse than a 21yr old wing!!!

When you consider how ALL players who toured as key players, it's pretty easy to see how there has been a deterioration in performance by a huge % of the squad, especially in the forwards, Corbisiero, Gray, Heaslip, and the Welsh boys have all looked shadows of themselves, and all have incurred injuries too, SOB, Warburton, Corbiriero etc...

I think it's been really difficult to get up for occasions such as Italy early in the tournament, I have no doubt had England had Corbs, Tuilagi, Parling fit for Paris we would've had plenty to turn France over, sadly we never.

One other issue a lot of people have forgotten is the Welsh over seas players, Davies, Roberts, Lydiate, Phillips, Charteris, North etc, that can't be easy slotting straight back into a Wales training session renowned for it's discomfort!

Lets be honest, noone can claim a lions hangover as fact, but you'd be silly to totally dispute it had even a tiny effect on performance, wether by fatigue, psychological or physical, or injuries. Wales have had a difficult season after one of their best in lord knows how long, I personally hope it isn't fatigue and that certain key players have just started sliding, I don't think they'll get any joy from SA, but if they rest and are clever about player welfare / control next season I won't be confident about them sculking away at the group stage next year!

Tom Youngs has admitted in the press that Leicester have suffered due to the Lions hangover and it is clear post Lions 6 Nations are somewhat devalued by the attrition rate; Parling, Manu, Ben Youngs, Croft and Cole all injured….puts Welsh coming 3rd this year in it's true perspective after having provided more than the backbone of the winning tour side, rest assured normal service will resume in next years tournament.

Gatlands tenure has already seen these ups and downs with the 6 nations though so it's likely to have happened anyway. Much more important issues than tired or fatigued players. Gatland must agree or he wouldn't be considering adding a further try out game.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gatlands tenure has already seen these ups and downs with the 6 nations though so it's likely to have happened anyway. Much more important issues than tired or fatigued players. Gatland must agree or he wouldn't be considering adding a further try out game.

Agreed, he fired shots across the bow of several players post ireland; following the england game and injuries at 2, 7 and 15 it is now both opportune and mandatory to look closely at bringing players on with 11 games to go, for that reason and because welsh club involvement will finish in a month or so i fully expect the probable possibles game to go ahead. I think Dacey, Williams, Davies and Robinson should be looked at closely.

I imagine there will be at least 2 names starting in RWC who aren't even capped now.

Not sure it is burn out or not (whatever that means)  There was no need for Wales to perform this year.

I reckon they were not there mentally (pehaps?) because this year the 6N didn't mean much to them as it was not a WC or Lions year (not to down the 6n though) I reckon next year will see them back at their best because it will be 2015

Gats record is pretty consistent (perform in 2011 WC, perform in Lions year etc) Even going by his Wasps record they seem to time their runs perfectly.

They will be there or therabouts at the next WC which will make the group very interesting.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/07/07/article-0-1AB2A0B0000005DC-296_634x329.jpg

Lions hangover.