What a Lions hang over looks like

First topic message reminder :

Let's face facts. Wales have looked ordinary this six nations.

Against England their kick chase was non existent, the ruck was lacklustre, players we are accustomed to seeing barreling into the defensive line; punching holes were subdued. Even Faletau mustered only a few decent carries. Wales looked largely like they wanted to leave the hard work to someone else. When Adam Jones and Gethin Jenkins are out scrummed by the same characters they destroyed a year earlier you know something is amiss.

The welsh performance was largely summed up as halfpenny flattering to deceive by some typically extraordinary long range accuracy.

The ball was carelessly knocked on, turned over, passes went behind players and careless, lazy options were taken.

Does this take away from England's performance? No. England were more than competent. The ruck work pushed Poite all the way to his very lenient boundary, the set piece was accurate and the veil of professionalism that is settling over England looked fitting (blockers were in place for each kick, Hartley again managed a fistful of indiscretions at vital moments whilst avoiding a sanction beyond penalties and Farrell's restarts were typically excellent). All of these things are the mark of a world class team. All of the World Cup winners were adept at these things and the England coaches have done a great job of finding the line here. England are certainly not naive, in their youthfulness.

But it had to be said, Wales were frankly well off the level we've seen them play.

I don't want to labour this point, but I predicted it. No act of analytic genius, just simple observation. I estimated Wales had one great effort left in them - pride demanded it. It came against France after the shocking performance turned in against Ireland a fortnight earlier. From then, with players having laid down their market I always felt Gatland would struggle to get the players up again. Nonsense! I hear you cry! England is the most important match of the year for a Welshman. Well yes, that's true. But there is a wide margin between feeling the motivation of the old foe approaching, and having the mental and physical reserves to deliver on that emotion. What happens in this scenario? In a word, frustration. Over playing. Over trying. Thrashing. When North and Roberts kicked recklessly rather than playing patiently this is what was delivered.

What does a lions hang over look like? Just watch the replay.

Well done to the increasingly impressive england. Will deserved victors, who now have a great chance of a six Nations title to match their triple crown.  Did we see anything new? Not really. Brown still looks the most likely back. Nowell still seems out of his depth to me. May is ordinary, seems in dire need of some coaching about DIRECTION. The team again lost impetus when Hartley departed, and I'd really like to see something different than the workman like Farrell at 10. Don't get me wrong - I'm not deriding England. They are indeed developing into a RWC threat. But I don't feel this performance added anything to that delivered in the loss to France.

I thought the English start to the game was frenetic and very similar to the style the ABs like to play. Quick ball and Cares quick tap for the try summed up perfectly the energy and decisiveness of the English mindset. SL had prepared them for the start perfectly.

From there the energy dropped off a little but momentum always seemed to be with England, but to a lesser extent. The Burrell try from a chip through is becoming a very lethal method of beating defences, again a tactic used heavily by NZ sides at AB and sxv level. Where Cooper has his wide pass, others have the chip through to beat oncoming defences.

Other than that Wales looked flat in comparison, toiling away like they used to.

I will say though that Halfpennys goalkicking tecnique is superb, he hit every kick beautifully, mostly from challenging distances and angles. Farrell wasnt far behind him, but I don't think theres a kicker hitting the ball so well as Halfpenny in todays game.

GunsGerms wrote:
How did England have fresh hungry players? Most of England's best players were on tour.

The Lions tour has had an effect on many players, not just welsh ones. Playing in T14 has also had an effect on players.

Englands best players during the 6Ns were not in Australia: Brown, Care, Robshaw, Lawes, Hartley.


Wales did not lose (nor England win) because of the Lions tour - but it has had an effect on players from all countries.

GunsGerms wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Wales' performance has nothing to do with a Lions hangover. England and Ireland both had almost as many players on tour as Wales and Ireland in particular had probably the most Lions related injuries to key players.

Which means as with England,m they had fresh hungry players.

Looks like the one match rest did BOD the world of good, you should write a letter of thanks to Gatland.

How did England have fresh hungry players? Most of England's best players were on tour.

BOD has a habit of proving doubters wrong when he has been written off. He has done it his whole career.

He was always going to have a big tournament though because it is his last chance, nothing to do with Gatland.

Not sure I agree with that.

England had some unlucky to miss out on the Lions tour like Robshaw and Wood. Hartley would have toured if not for his foolish red card in the AP final vs Tigers.

Some players like Brown and Care have really enhanced their reputation in the last year. FB is a strong position for the Lions too.

One thing we can say is that Farrell Jr going on the Lions tour looks to have helped him mature as a player. Continually making a mockery of the belief that he shouldn't have toured with the Lions.

Future looks bright for England 10s if Ford Jr can rise to the challenge and push Farrell Jr for that 10 shirt.

GunsGerms wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Wales' performance has nothing to do with a Lions hangover. England and Ireland both had almost as many players on tour as Wales and Ireland in particular had probably the most Lions related injuries to key players.

Which means as with England,m they had fresh hungry players.

Looks like the one match rest did BOD the world of good, you should write a letter of thanks to Gatland.

How did England have fresh hungry players? Most of England's best players were on tour.

BOD has a habit of proving doubters wrong when he has been written off. He has done it his whole career.

He was always going to have a big tournament though because it is his last chance, nothing to do with Gatland.

As pointed out above the ones who toured and played got injured, how many Lions test starters were in the England 23?
Englands first choice line up has suffered from the Lions, but the players who have been put out in this 6 nations almost exclusively had a quiet tour or didnt go at all.

The comment about BOD was clearly light hearted...loosen up chap

TrailApe wrote:Hang on, I'm confused.

We were told prior to kick off that the Welsh were going to drub the English because they had 10 Lions in the match day squad whilst England had one or two.

So now they saying they got beat BECAUSE they had 10 Lions?

Doesn't add up.

Yeah i thought that was quite curious...suit the "lions effect" to how the results go. Anyway i dont buy it either way...all teams had players on tour.

Those Welsh lions were going to be too much for a weak callow England. The English boys would be overwhelmed by the sheer power and experience of the band of Welsh men. Where would the English youth hide? Even playing the game on their own school pitch would not save them. 

... And then the sleeping Welsh woke up.

Beshocked, right now Farrell is the only English player who has not succumbed to the "hangover". I wrote at the end of the tour when a certain grey and aged tigers fan was moaning about the tour that I felt Farrell and Manu would have learnt huge amounts on the tour. Farrell is a much better player than 12 months ago, Manu has been permanentyly injured.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
As pointed out above the ones who toured and played got injured, how many Lions test starters were in the England 23?
Englands first choice line up has suffered from the Lions, but the players who have been put out in this 6 nations almost exclusively had a quiet tour or didnt go at all.

The comment about BOD was clearly light hearted...loosen up chap

Lighthearted or not you comment re BOD reflects popular oppinion from certain quarters. Accordingly, I think its only right to point out how good he has been in the 6 nations and how unsurprising that is from the point of view of an Irish fan.

Londontiger true. It's fortunate for England that Farrell hasn't suffered too so far but Ford will need some blooding at some point to give us another option at 10.

I just think England have handled the Lions hangover if you can call it that pretty well. Can't say the same of Tigers but that's understandable - if you get some of your most important players injured for a quite significant length...

The guys who have come in for the injured Tigers players have done well. Makes greater competition for positions when the likes of Manu and Youngs are fully firing on all cylinders again.

England can handle it easier because of the bigger pool of players and we are churning out some quality players at the moment.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

TrailApe wrote:Hang on, I'm confused.

We were told prior to kick off that the Welsh were going to drub the English because they had 10 Lions in the match day squad whilst England had one or two.

So now they saying they got beat BECAUSE they had 10 Lions?

Doesn't add up.

Yeah i thought that was quite curious...suit the "lions effect" to how the results go. Anyway i dont buy it either way...all teams had players on tour.

It was only Gatland and his fellow internet trolls saying that.
Most other people recognised that the likes of Phillips, North, Jones, Jenkins, Davies and Warburton have been struggling for form or through injury for much of this season and may not be able to bring their A game to the party.
Whereas Gatland chose to pick Davies Lancaster stuck by Burrell over Tuilagi.

Obviously these injury and form considerations apply to any season, but more so to players who have had tough summers and no break. Theres medical evidence, historical evidence and common sense to back up the Lions effect. Obviously its not a direct and soul causal link and Im sure we can all point to examples of plays in or out form that dont fit the general pattern ...but I find it hard to believe that playing lots of high intensity test rugby over a season without break doenst take its toll on players.

Funnily enough the ones being most vociferous against this view are fans of the team who give their senior players a break at the start of the club season and who now sit top of the 6 nations table. Hmmm.



As I said way back I dont think its the only possible cause for Wales faltering this season and only bringing their A game once in 4, but it has to be considered as a factor when looking at individuals.

Its also worth giving credit for England only giving away one kickable penalty in the 2nd half following the first half mess. That may well be influenced by the fact they had the ball less and a lot of the penalties were from players getting isolated, but may also be down to the right words being said and listened to at half time.

Why have Ireland not been effected by the "Lions effect" then Peter?

Ireland had 12 players on tour, Wales had 14. Not a big difference. Ireland players got 55 caps on tour, Wales 81, England 69 across all games. Again not significant differences.

Ireland's numbers are shorter due to early injuries to key players like Healy, Bowe and Kearney.

Ireland had lots of injuries to high profile players and Zebo has not been selected this year directly because of the Lions tour.

Also the Lions tour was almost a year ago. Cant understand how it can have any bearing on this years 6 nations. The only reason France have done well after Lions tours is because they have had a summer tour with all their players to progress their team whereas the Lions nations havent.

But how many of those "caps" have played in the 6Ns? Virtually none of the England players who gained the 69 have played in th 6Ns. More of Ireland's have though, again, quite a few haven't been involved. Nearly all of the Welsh Lions have been fully involved in this year's tournament and maybe that was a mistake by Gatland.

Firstly I believe Ireland have been affected by the lack of a proper summer rest. There were players who started the season injured, or who have picked up injuries they may not have done otherwise. At times Sexton, also due to T14 workload, has looked jaded.

Ireland have managed this by trying to delay the start of the season for as many players as possible.
England have managed it by bringing in different players (Cole, Youngs, Parling, Croft, Youngs and Manu were all capped - none started yesterday)
Scotland have managed it by cleverly not participating in the Lions tour.

Wales however have asked too much of players, and played their Lions when they were not fit. That was their choice not to trust the back-ups, but it is one of many factors why certain players have not performed as well as they might.

Jelly the problem is that Wales have a lack of strength in depth.

I think Wales have actually been fortunate that they haven't lost Faletau for example or some of their more key players.

jelly wrote:But how many of those "caps" have played in the 6Ns? Virtually none of the England players who gained the 69 have played in th 6Ns. More of Ireland's have though, again, quite a few haven't been involved. Nearly all of the Welsh Lions have been fully involved in this year's tournament and maybe that was a mistake by Gatland.

So its more of a management error? In any case the Lions tour was a year ago. How can that effect a player now?

In the Ireland v Wales game Ireland had 8 Lions tourists and Wales 11. Ireland hammered Wales and we are lead to believe that it was because Wales had a Lions hangover. I dont buy it at all.

I don't think Wales' problems have much to do with the Lions tour other than perhaps giving Gats a misplaced confidence that his methods and strategy don't need to evolve (a bit like the win vs England last season). Our main issues are:

- a tired game plan which has in fact moved beyond the "Warrenball" power game towards a horrendously aimless kicking game where the sole purpose seems to be to hope that the opposition run it back and give away a kickable penalty - which kind of worked to a point yesterday but it was horribly negative and just made the scoreline more respectable

- front row past its peak (possibly some Lions burn out there to be fair)

- sub-standard half-backs, nothing to do with the Lions tour

- JD2 just back from injury - nothing to do with the Lions tour

- some disappointing individual performances on the day against Ireland/England - e.g. Lydiate/Warbs vs Ireland, Roberts/North yesterday.

Was very surprised that Gatland didnt substitute Priestland earlier. It wasnt his best game yesterday. I like him as a player but he really seems to be lacking confidence at the moment.

GunsGerms wrote:

In any case the Lions tour was a year ago. How can that effect a player now?

Because the human body needs rest. Top class athletes, which is what Rugby players aspire to be, ned quality training but als quality rest. Too many players have not had the rest needed and their bodies are breaking down as a consequence. It is not so much the Lions tour as that too many players have been at it, non-stop since September 2012.


Interestingly what you are saying is exactly what the OP was saying earlier in the season

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

In any case the Lions tour was a year ago. How can that effect a player now?

Because the human body needs rest. Top class athletes, which is what Rugby players aspire to be, ned quality training but als quality rest. Too many players have not had the rest needed and their bodies are breaking down as a consequence. It is not so much the Lions tour as that too many players have been at it, non-stop since September 2012.


Interestingly what you are saying is exactly what the OP was saying earlier in the season

Only Welsh players need a rest? A year isnt enough?

GunsGerms wrote:Was very surprised that Gatland didnt substitute Priestland earlier. It wasnt his best game yesterday. I like him as a player but he really seems to be lacking confidence at the moment.

Maybe with Priestland, they kind of feel they have to protect his confidence a bit and didn't want to hook him too early. For me, Jenkins and the halfbacks should've gone at halftime. Jenkins had been warned and a yellow was pretty inevitable. Interesting to see Gatland saying Jenkins suggested he didn't go back on, whereas really it should've been Gatland who decided before that, a change had to be made.

GunsGerms wrote:Only Welsh players need a rest? A year isnt enough?

No all players need a rest. And players from all countries have been affected. Ireland as I said before tried to manage it by delaying the start of the players season - even then how many of Ireland's Lions are actually really on top form?

Healy: yes - he of course left the tour early (admittedly so did Gethin)
Best : Perhaps
O'Connell: Has had fitness issues
SOB: Injured
Heaslip: Decent but not sparkling
Murray: Injured
Sexton: Looked jaded for much of this season
BOD: well all sorts going on here
Bowe: Injured
Zebo: Injury issues
Kearney: not at his best.

Touring Party:

How many have had good seasons form wise, free from significant injuries:



Rory Best
Richard Hibbard Hooker
Tom Youngs
Dan Cole
Alex Corbisiero
Tom Court
Ryan Grant
Cian Healy
Gethin Jenkins
Adam Jones
Matt Stevens
Mako Vunipola
Ian Evans
Richie Gray
Alun Wyn Jones
Paul O'Connell
Geoff Parling
Tom Croft
Dan Lydiate
Sean O'Brien
Justin Tipuric
Sam Warburton
Taulupe Faletau
Jamie Heaslip
Conor Murray
Mike Phillips
Ben Youngs
Owen Farrell
Jonathan Sexton
Brad Barritt
Jonathan Davies
Brian O'Driscoll
Jamie Roberts
Manu Tuilagi
Billy Twelvetrees
Tommy Bowe
Alex Cuthbert
Christian Wade
Sean Maitland
George North
Shane Williams
Simon Zebo
Leigh Halfpenny
Stuart Hogg
Rob Kearney

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Only Welsh players need a rest? A year isnt enough?

No all players need a rest. And players from all countries have been affected. Ireland as I said before tried to manage it by delaying the start of the players season - even then how many of Ireland's Lions are actually really on top form?

Healy: yes - he of course left the tour early (admittedly so did Gethin)
Best : Perhaps  - outstanding as always. key player.
O'Connell: Has had fitness issues - He has had a good tournament. He had a stomach bug rather than an injury.SOB: Injured
Heaslip: Decent but not sparkling - consistent
Murray: Injured - only injured in the Italy game. Has been very good otherwise.
Sexton: Looked jaded for much of this season - Nothing to do with the Lions tour
BOD: well all sorts going on here - he has been outstanding
Bowe: Injured
Zebo: Injury issues - attitude injury
Kearney: not at his best.- not far off his best

The Ireland Lions have been playing well enough to put us in the position we are in. Also the injured players have non Lions related injuries. Cant see how the Lions tour has had any impact on Ireland really except Bowe maybe who missed too much rugby as a result of his Lions injury.

Ps not saying that is why Wales did not win. Just trying to say that player fatigue/worn bodies has an effect, and that Lions players from all countries will be most affected.

Again repeating what I said earlier the attritional nature of the T14 also creates players with fatigued bodies.

guns, all I can say is go and research latest fitness theory. all top rugby players are being treated really badly and they break down more often because of this.

We are not going to agree, so I guess we may as well stop debating.

LondonTiger wrote:guns, all I can say is go and research latest fitness theory. all top rugby players are being treated really badly and they break down more often because of this.

We are not going to agree, so I guess we may as well stop debating.

Why do Wales have a Lions hangover but Ireland dont? Blaming form on the Lions tour is such nonsense when its the same for 4 out of 6 of the teams in the tournament.

GunsGerms wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:guns, all I can say is go and research latest fitness theory. all top rugby players are being treated really badly and they break down more often because of this.

We are not going to agree, so I guess we may as well stop debating.

Why do Wales have a Lions hangover but Ireland dont? Blaming form on the Lions tour is such nonsense when its the same for 4 out of 6 of the teams in the tournament.

Because Ireland rest their players more, and had less representation in the test teams than Wales.

Thats the difference, the same as the last umpteen million times it was stated.

That all said think the main problems for Wales revolve around differnet issues. The front row have been struggling due to the rule changes more than fatigue the backrow is still doing what they do, tackling machine of Lydiate and jackling of the other 2 but the ball carriers have all been well scouted and stopped at source. Hibbard isn't making yards, neither is Roberts. That's down to other teams not a hangover.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

TrailApe wrote:Hang on, I'm confused.

We were told prior to kick off that the Welsh were going to drub the English because they had 10 Lions in the match day squad whilst England had one or two.

So now they saying they got beat BECAUSE they had 10 Lions?

Doesn't add up.

Yeah i thought that was quite curious...suit the "lions effect" to how the results go. Anyway i dont buy it either way...all teams had players on tour.

It was only Gatland and his fellow internet trolls saying that.
Most other people recognised that the likes of Phillips, North, Jones, Jenkins, Davies and Warburton have been struggling for form or through injury for much of this season and may not be able to bring their A game to the party.
Whereas Gatland chose to pick Davies Lancaster stuck by Burrell over Tuilagi.

Obviously these injury and form considerations apply to any season, but more so to players who have had tough summers and no break. Theres medical evidence, historical evidence and common sense to back up the Lions effect. Obviously its not a direct and soul causal link and Im sure we can all point to examples of plays in or out form that dont fit the general pattern ...but I find it hard to believe that playing lots of high intensity test rugby over a season without break doenst take its toll on players.

Funnily enough the ones being most vociferous against this view are fans of the team who give their senior players a break at the start of the club season and who now sit top of the 6 nations table. Hmmm.



As I said way back I dont think its the only possible cause for Wales faltering this season and only bringing their A game once in 4, but it has to be considered as a factor when looking at individuals.

Exactly - in fact I predicted the welsh loss directly using the "lions hangover" as my rationale. It was quite predictable. That's why I started this thread. I believe Wales looked flat and tired from the outset.

I agree with Guns - the Lions hangover explanation doesn't stack up when you look at the Welsh lions individually and it worries me that Gatland yesterday mentioned it as an excuse, because he's just papering over the cracks.

Jenkins - injured at start of Lions tour, so irrelevant
Hibbard - possible case for Lions fatigue, no more than Best though who had a poor tour but is playing really well now.
Jones - possible Lions fatigue but other problems anyway
AWJ - playing pretty well, Lions not really an issue IMO
Faletau - ditto
Warbs - had had time out injured as usual in any case so Lions irrelevant
Tipuric - no fatigue there, needs more game time if anything
Phillips - had a nice break after being sacked by Bayonne, fatigue not an issue but form is
Roberts - as with Warburton - had a good few months off injured
JD2 - long injury period, just back, Lions irrelevant
Cuthbert - can't see how Lions has adversely affected him, he just needs more opportunities in games
North - some form issues at the moment, but has had a great season overall with Northampton.
Halfpenny - well he's injured now sadly, and could probably do with a break mentally so maybe some Lions fatigue but you'd hardly have thought that as he was slotting those 6 tricky penalties yesterday.

No 7&1/2 wrote:That all said think the main problems for Wales revolve around differnet issues. The front row have been struggling due to the rule changes more than fatigue the backrow is still doing what they do, tackling machine of Lydiate and jackling of the other 2 but the ball carriers have all been well scouted and stopped at source. Hibbard isn't making yards, neither is Roberts. That's down to other teams not a hangover.

Well said. England defended very well in general. The England 10,12 and 13 are not small guys. It's not easy to run over them. The pack did very well in this area too.

In my opinion Wales didn't target Nowell and May enough, they should have done it more because they had some success vs Nowell.

Forgot Lydiate - he's come back into some form, has been in and out of the Racing Metro team. Concerns over how he's being used by Racing, but he spent almost the whole of last season injured so the Lions tour is not the issue with him.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:guns, all I can say is go and research latest fitness theory. all top rugby players are being treated really badly and they break down more often because of this.

We are not going to agree, so I guess we may as well stop debating.

Why do Wales have a Lions hangover but Ireland dont? Blaming form on the Lions tour is such nonsense when its the same for 4 out of 6 of the teams in the tournament.

Because Ireland rest their players more, and had less representation in the test teams than Wales.

Thats the difference, the same as the last umpteen million times it was stated.

Resting players doesnt have much to do with the Lions tour then. The representation was fairly similar. Would have made very little difference. Basically the Lions tour makes very little difference. There are other factor that make much more difference like failing to evolve tactically, motivating yourself for a third straight championship win or introducing new players.

This has also been said umpteen times. Calm down Peter.

Certainly Adam Jones had the hair of the dog look about him...

Just want to add, the "Lions hangover" is a misnomer.

Wales has just about their best team playing, it is the manner in which they play not the personnel that is the problem

Biltong wrote:Just want to add, the "Lions hangover" is a misnomer.

Wales has just about their best team playing, it is the manner in which they play not the personnel that is the problem

Precisely. And the manner of playing is getting worse, not better.

GunsGerms wrote: There are other factor that make much more difference like failing to evolve tactically, motivating yourself for a third straight championship win or introducing new players.

Indeed there are other factors that make a difference. However player fatigue does make a significant difference. the Lions tour was a major factor in this as the players never got a chance to recharge, and look jaded and keep getting injured.

Why you deny it can have an effect is beyond me, but hey ho each to their own.

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote: There are other factor that make much more difference like failing to evolve tactically, motivating yourself for a third straight championship win or introducing new players.

Indeed there are other factors that make a difference. However player fatigue does make a significant difference. the Lions tour was a major factor in this as the players never got a chance to recharge, and look jaded and keep getting injured.

Why you deny it can have an effect is beyond me, but hey ho each to their own.

Once again the are four teams in the championship that can claim player fatigue just as much. Its a misnomer, the Lions tour isnt relevant. Just an excuse.

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote: There are other factor that make much more difference like failing to evolve tactically, motivating yourself for a third straight championship win or introducing new players.

Indeed there are other factors that make a difference. However player fatigue does make a significant difference. the Lions tour was a major factor in this as the players never got a chance to recharge, and look jaded and keep getting injured.

Why you deny it can have an effect is beyond me, but hey ho each to their own.

Not all players have suffered from player fatigue. Some are playing very well indeed. E.g. BOD the GOD. Perhaps people will say he is playing well because Gatland dropped him.  

Halfpenny is now injured is it the Lions tour to blame for his poor positioning during the try saving tackle on Burrell?

Biltong wrote:Just want to add, the "Lions hangover" is a misnomer.

Wales has just about their best team playing, it is the manner in which they play not the personnel that is the problem

What does that say about Aus then? Walews were weakened by having to pick token English and Irish players yet won there.

This is the point. Wales as we all know are stacked with world class talent and Gatlandball is the system thats served them to a series of stunning victories over anyone on their day. Now suddenly they are losing 50% of games, despite playing against boys who hardly have any lions caps.
Is it not possible that the weight of those caps is hard to carry and affects the players?

Or are we just saying the Welsh are overated?

GunsGerms wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote: There are other factor that make much more difference like failing to evolve tactically, motivating yourself for a third straight championship win or introducing new players.

Indeed there are other factors that make a difference. However player fatigue does make a significant difference. the Lions tour was a major factor in this as the players never got a chance to recharge, and look jaded and keep getting injured.

Why you deny it can have an effect is beyond me, but hey ho each to their own.

Once again the are four teams in the championship that can claim player fatigue just as much. Its a misnomer, the Lions tour isnt relevant. Just an excuse.

This isnt an argument youre just contradicting everything we say ...

(or ignoring it and fixating on one point)

I gave given lots of points, you just havent read them, dont understand them, or choose to ignore them. There are lots of factors why Wales arent performing well. the Lions tour isnt particularly one of them.

Lets not forget a so called Lions tired Wales hammered France. Why? because France's manager is absolutely tactically clueless and cant put a game plan to beat a massively predictable Welsh team that havent evolved their tactics in three years.

Ireland and England by contrast tactically out smarted Wales. Thats why they beat them, nothing to do with any tour. Priestland has been Wales' worst player for god sake. He wasnt even on the tour.

What a Lion's hangover looks like:

GunsGerms wrote:I gave given lots of points, you just havent read them, dont understand them, or choose to ignore them. There are lots of factors why Wales arent performing well. the Lions tour isnt particularly one of them.

Au contraire - we are accepting that there are lots of reasons for Welsh underperformance, and that player fatigue is one of them. Not the most important, but one of them. you are denying it is a factor. That is fine you are entitled to that opiniuon - but not to slag us off for things we are not doing.

I keep going back to the idea that the Welsh Lions obviously played in many Lions games. Correct - no argument.

...it seems they also trained the hardest, trained longer, trained more intensely, played the part of other Nationality players who pretended to play in the lesser games (some of which turned out tougher ones than two of the Test ones!!! - and it seems they played in high-end club games right up to the end of the preceding season and came late to Lions camp because of those Club/Provincial commitments.

The other players from all Nations, had the year off, didn't play hard in their club season, didn't have duty into the closing stages of domestic and European rugby that delayed their arrival at Lions camp, didn't train as hard as Welsh players in camp, didn't play in many of the lesser games, didn't play in any of the Tests, and only went on tour for the barbeques and pool lounging.

We're all tired.  Tired of schit talk

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Biltong wrote:Just want to add, the "Lions hangover" is a misnomer.

Wales has just about their best team playing, it is the manner in which they play not the personnel that is the problem

What does that say about Aus then? Walews were weakened by having to pick token English and Irish players yet won there.

This is the point. Wales as we all know are stacked with world class talent and Gatlandball is the system thats served them to a series of stunning victories over anyone on their day. Now suddenly they are losing 50% of games, despite playing against boys who hardly have any lions caps.
Is it not possible that the weight of those caps is hard to carry and affects the players?

Or are we just saying the Welsh are overated?

Australia is not relevant here.

Gatland has been hanging onto the same game plan for 5 years now, it is predictable. simple as that.

Where exactly is the supposed fatigue showing? The back row did what they always do against England and they won a fair few pens at the breakdown. North has been in good form. JD got an injury fair enough but may well have picked up the same thing without the Lions. Roberts has been well marshalled by ireland and England but was good against France. Halfpenny is doing exactly like always great in defence and kicknig and not allowed to run. Jones struggling under new rules.

I suspect there are other reasons than the Lions tour for the relative decline in Welsh rugby.

Both Welsh props are 33. I know that traditionally this is not too old for a prop but the game has changed. Props are now expected to do more than push in the scrum and lift in the line out. It is difficult to compete in these aspects of the game against younger men. Of England's top level props Davy Wlson is the oldest at 28. If they are struggling now what will they be like in the world cup? If they are not going to make the world cup why are they playing now?

The opposition, certainly England and Ireland have improved. When Stuart Lancaster took over he took radical action. This meant playing inexperienced players for a year or so. The players now have the experience and will be even better come 2015. Ireland now have better coaching and tactics. If only France had the same! In contrast Gatland does not seem to want to try nwe players. Why play Jonathan Davies when he had so little game time? Surely it is an opportunity to give others a sustained run in the team.

It is obvious that the other teams have worked out Gatlandball. It never worked against SH teams and now England and Ireland have improved it does not work against them. Yes it still worked against France but France are pretty clueless at the moment.

Wales lack strength in depth. This is to me their key weakness. If their Lions are out of form there should be replacements of similar quality. The future does not look good either with the under twenties losing 67-7.

Look at how poorly and hungover Brian O'Driscoll played on Saturday.
Wouldn't everyone want to be hungover like that?