Rugby and the Military

Its something that i've noticed over a period of time. We seam in the 6 Nations to be incapable of having a rugby Match without having a load of Military pomp and ceremony with England even firing artillery inside the stadium yesterday. Is it just me that finds these Displays just a little embarrassing. We rightly point and laugh when countries like North Korea do similar. Let me add this not an anti English thing there are similar shenanigans by the other nations. Can we not just have the anthems and on with the action.

I'm currently serving in the armed forces and have to admit I like it, it makes it a bit more of an occasion.

Personally I think it's a good thing to see.

It reminds us that there are other 'teams' out there that are putting their bodies on the line in much more hostile environments.

Having served on the the L118/L19 for a number of years I was interested to see those lads bringing that Light Gun out of action whilst wearing their blues (potential for burst seams very high) however the cameras moved off.

Probably just put it into the A-frame and moved it off in that configuration.

TrailApe wrote:Personally I think it's a good thing to see.

It reminds us that there are other 'teams' out there that are putting their bodies on the line in much more hostile environments.

Having served on the the L118/L19 for a number of years I was interested to see those lads bringing that Light Gun out of action whilst wearing their blues (potential for burst seams very high) however the cameras moved off.

Probably just put it into the A-frame and moved it off in that configuration.

Without getting in to the politics of it, just isn't my cup of tea. As an Ireland supporter i would also like to see the Red Carpet meet the president done away with also.

Sport and the military are closely interwoven. And have been throughout history. An international rugby match is a big occasion, and deserves a fanfare. The military provide the bands, the guards of honour and a lot of security at these events, it is only fitting that they take a part in proceedings. It's certainly not as irritating as the seemingly endless preamble before a match in Dublin.

History, tradition and pride in one's nation.

I'm all for it.

Like it or not this year marks the centenary year of the start of WW1. I don't think these displays are acts of military belligerence like North Korea's photoshopped hovercraft but signs of respect for the fallen soldiers of past wars. Given both teams probably had grandfathers who fought in the second world war and great grandfathers who fought in the First World War, I don't think it is out of place to acknowledge that in a rugby game just as NZ and France, for example, wear commemorative poppies on their sleeves for November internationals.

I can see why being from Ireland you might not appriaciate it.

Most of the UK are quite proud of the Military and the job we do, it's quite nice to showcase this.

It's of course not just England, Scotland & Wales roll out their local regiments for the big games.

All nations can be accused of a little pomp & ceremony but I don't see any great issue with it.

I rather see the brass band playing the anthems topped off with a bit of a bang at the end than see the 'East Walford Display Team' give a demonstration of 'donoughting' in a procession of stolen Fiat 500s followed by a bunch of tracksuited yoofs with badly spelled tattoos who then set fire to them and then dance around the burning embers in hoodies, then off to mug some kids for their I-Phones.

Or God forbid Morris Dancers.

 

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I can see why being from Ireland you might not appriaciate it.

Most of the UK are quite proud of the Military and the job we do, it's quite nice to showcase this.

It's of course not just England, Scotland & Wales roll out their local regiments for the big games.

The Irish have their military bands etc. at the prematch amble... as do the French & Italians. I see no problem with this.

I like the Irish pre-match ceremony... wherelse do you get to meet Bilbo every week.  

Jimpy wrote:Sport and the military are closely interwoven. And have been throughout history. An international rugby match is a big occasion, and deserves a fanfare. The military provide the bands, the guards of honour and a lot of security at these events, it is only fitting that they take a part in proceedings. It's certainly not as irritating as the seemingly endless preamble before a match in Dublin.

History, tradition and pride in one's nation.

I'm all for it.

Please note I said I wasn't keen on the Pre-match in Dublin. It all seams to be getting a little out of hand though. Tradition is no justification for anything there are many traditional activities which we no longer do. I mean its the same with poppy appeal you see them now in early September and it isn't safe to take them of to till its almost Christmas.

Without getting in to the politics of it, just isn't my cup of tea. As an Ireland supporter i would also like to see the Red Carpet meet the president done away with also.

That's fair enough, you are most certainly entitled to express your opinion.

Without getting into the politics of it, I would also add that your freedoms have been bought by previous generations of squaddies and I'm really pleased that the sacrifices of the miltary are being appreciated and acknowledged nowadays, something which wasn't done in the past as fully as it should have.

tecphobe wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Sport and the military are closely interwoven. And have been throughout history. An international rugby match is a big occasion, and deserves a fanfare. The military provide the bands, the guards of honour and a lot of security at these events, it is only fitting that they take a part in proceedings. It's certainly not as irritating as the seemingly endless preamble before a match in Dublin.

History, tradition and pride in one's nation.

I'm all for it.

Please note I said I wasn't keen on the Pre-match in Dublin. It all seams to be getting a little out of hand though. Tradition is no justification for anything there are many traditional activities which we no longer do. I mean its the same with poppy appeal you see them now in early September and it isn't safe to take them of to till its almost Christmas.

Thats utter rubbish.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

tecphobe wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Sport and the military are closely interwoven. And have been throughout history. An international rugby match is a big occasion, and deserves a fanfare. The military provide the bands, the guards of honour and a lot of security at these events, it is only fitting that they take a part in proceedings. It's certainly not as irritating as the seemingly endless preamble before a match in Dublin.

History, tradition and pride in one's nation.

I'm all for it.

Please note I said I wasn't keen on the Pre-match in Dublin. It all seams to be getting a little out of hand though. Tradition is no justification for anything there are many traditional activities which we no longer do. I mean its the same with poppy appeal you see them now in early September and it isn't safe to take them of to till its almost Christmas.

Thats utter rubbish.

Like the original posting to be honest....

And yeah, there's no justification for traditions, so let's scrap the Lions as well, anachronistic clap trap that   

Do the French and Italians roll out any military bands? I genuinely don't remember.

[quote="Jimpy"]

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

tecphobe wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Sport and the military are closely interwoven. And have been throughout history. An international rugby match is a big occasion, and deserves a fanfare. The military provide the bands, the guards of honour and a lot of security at these events, it is only fitting that they take a part in proceedings. It's certainly not as irritating as the seemingly endless preamble before a match in Dublin.

History, tradition and pride in one's nation.

I'm all for it.

Please note I said I wasn't keen on the Pre-match in Dublin. It all seams to be getting a little out of hand though. Tradition is no justification for anything there are many traditional activities which we no longer do. I mean its the same with poppy appeal you see them now in early September and it isn't safe to take them of to till its almost Christmas.

Thats utter rubbish.

YOu dismiss anything you disagree with as Rubbish! Ok if I'm talking rubbish their has never been any pressure brought to bear on anyone for refusing to wear a poppy ?

Yeh I agree with the majority. Every country has a bit a pomp or BS at the start of a game. Adds to the occasion imo. Plus there's the help for heros thing. The cannon at the end of GSTQ was timed brilliantly yesterday and a great bit of theatre. As an ex matelot, I'm sure we wouldve done something like....er....erm..hand out some stickers.  

Breadvan wrote:Yeh I agree with the majority. Every country has a bit a pomp or BS at the start of a game. Adds to the occasion imo. Plus there's the help for heros thing. The cannon at the end of GSTQ was timed brilliantly yesterday and a great bit of theatre. As an ex matelot, I'm sure we wouldve done something like....er....erm..hand out some stickers.  

Or hand over your iPods to Iranian gunboat captains...  

tecphobe wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

tecphobe wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Sport and the military are closely interwoven. And have been throughout history. An international rugby match is a big occasion, and deserves a fanfare. The military provide the bands, the guards of honour and a lot of security at these events, it is only fitting that they take a part in proceedings. It's certainly not as irritating as the seemingly endless preamble before a match in Dublin.

History, tradition and pride in one's nation.

I'm all for it.

Please note I said I wasn't keen on the Pre-match in Dublin. It all seams to be getting a little out of hand though. Tradition is no justification for anything there are many traditional activities which we no longer do. I mean its the same with poppy appeal you see them now in early September and it isn't safe to take them of to till its almost Christmas.

Thats utter rubbish.

YOu dismiss anything you disagree with as Rubbish! Ok if I'm talking rubbish their has never been any pressure brought to bear on anyone for refusing to wear a poppy ?

You're right, there hasn't.

As for scrapping the Lions I wouldn't mind one bit if it was scrapped, but that was not the point of the thread. The point is it was traditionally ok to bear and badger bait but we stopped doing those thing's. Appeal to tradition is a logical fallacy it doesn't justify anything. My point was not about Tradition my point was more that it was increasing to the point of being excessive, as i don't remember the pomp and ceremony being at the level which it is at now.

I love Rugby that's what i want to see, i dont want the faff what next a half time show?

tecphobe wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

tecphobe wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Sport and the military are closely interwoven. And have been throughout history. An international rugby match is a big occasion, and deserves a fanfare. The military provide the bands, the guards of honour and a lot of security at these events, it is only fitting that they take a part in proceedings. It's certainly not as irritating as the seemingly endless preamble before a match in Dublin.

History, tradition and pride in one's nation.

I'm all for it.

Please note I said I wasn't keen on the Pre-match in Dublin. It all seams to be getting a little out of hand though. Tradition is no justification for anything there are many traditional activities which we no longer do. I mean its the same with poppy appeal you see them now in early September and it isn't safe to take them of to till its almost Christmas.

Thats utter rubbish.

YOu dismiss anything you disagree with as Rubbish! Ok if I'm talking rubbish their there has never been any pressure brought to bear on anyone for refusing to wear a poppy ?

It seems to me you're looking for a rise, you're not going to get one.

If people want to wear a poppie they can wear a poppie. I'm in the military and I don't force my lads to wear one.

Jimpy wrote:

tecphobe wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

tecphobe wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Sport and the military are closely interwoven. And have been throughout history. An international rugby match is a big occasion, and deserves a fanfare. The military provide the bands, the guards of honour and a lot of security at these events, it is only fitting that they take a part in proceedings. It's certainly not as irritating as the seemingly endless preamble before a match in Dublin.

History, tradition and pride in one's nation.

I'm all for it.

Please note I said I wasn't keen on the Pre-match in Dublin. It all seams to be getting a little out of hand though. Tradition is no justification for anything there are many traditional activities which we no longer do. I mean its the same with poppy appeal you see them now in early September and it isn't safe to take them of to till its almost Christmas.

Thats utter rubbish.

YOu dismiss anything you disagree with as Rubbish! Ok if I'm talking rubbish their has never been any pressure brought to bear on anyone for refusing to wear a poppy ?

You're right, there hasn't.

I suggest you ask James McClean and John snow about that

The cannon at the end of GSTQ

A cannon?

A CANNON?

No sir, that was a GUN!

(Gun, 105mm, Field, L118)

However, brearing in mind you previous service I'll just give you a warning - yellow next offence mind you!

 

Jimpy wrote:

Breadvan wrote:Yeh I agree with the majority. Every country has a bit a pomp or BS at the start of a game. Adds to the occasion imo. Plus there's the help for heros thing. The cannon at the end of GSTQ was timed brilliantly yesterday and a great bit of theatre. As an ex matelot, I'm sure we wouldve done something like....er....erm..hand out some stickers.  

Or hand over your iPods to Iranian gunboat captains...  

   Why I outta...Can't blame them. Back then, ships boarding parties were made up of Stores accountants, stokers, comms guys. Not exactly Black ops.  

tecphobe wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

tecphobe wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

tecphobe wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Sport and the military are closely interwoven. And have been throughout history. An international rugby match is a big occasion, and deserves a fanfare. The military provide the bands, the guards of honour and a lot of security at these events, it is only fitting that they take a part in proceedings. It's certainly not as irritating as the seemingly endless preamble before a match in Dublin.

History, tradition and pride in one's nation.

I'm all for it.

Please note I said I wasn't keen on the Pre-match in Dublin. It all seams to be getting a little out of hand though. Tradition is no justification for anything there are many traditional activities which we no longer do. I mean its the same with poppy appeal you see them now in early September and it isn't safe to take them of to till its almost Christmas.

Thats utter rubbish.

YOu dismiss anything you disagree with as Rubbish! Ok if I'm talking rubbish their has never been any pressure brought to bear on anyone for refusing to wear a poppy ?

You're right, there hasn't.

I suggest you ask James McClean and John snow about that

Okay, have you got their numbers?

Breadvan wrote:Yeh I agree with the majority. Every country has a bit a pomp or BS at the start of a game. Adds to the occasion imo.

Pre-match pomp isn't always military, though. For instance, I've never seen Japan roll out a military band ahead of an international.

I just want to get the match started. Scotlands pre match stuff is especially funny because they invariably lose. Why do Ireland have to role out the President every single time? I'm sure he wants to just relax in his hobbit hole; he's 146 years old.

I've noticed people at England games wearing full military gear at the game. Do they not have other clothes? Or are they expecting to be attacked at any moment?

No one mention the Haka for Gawd's sake!

Rugby Fan wrote:

Breadvan wrote:Yeh I agree with the majority. Every country has a bit a pomp or BS at the start of a game. Adds to the occasion imo.

Pre-match pomp isn't always military, though. For instance, I've never seen Japan roll out a military band ahead of an international.

They could roll out some busty models in schoolgirl oufits. That'll be good....

I've noticed people at England games wearing full military gear at the game. Do they not have other clothes? Or are they expecting to be attacked by foreigners at any moment?

Yeah I've noticed that. I've also noticed an old codger in full uniform with a chestful of medals at the Dublin games, he tends to mooch about with the President - is he the Irish Army?

TrailApe wrote:

I've noticed people at England games wearing full military gear at the game. Do they not have other clothes? Or are they expecting to be attacked by foreigners at any moment?

Yeah I've noticed that. I've also noticed an old codger in full uniform with a chestful of medals at the Dublin games, he tends to mooch about with the President - is he the Irish Army?

Don't the military get free tickets to matches? Perhaps its a condition?

TrailApe wrote:

The cannon at the end of GSTQ

A cannon?

A CANNON?

No sir, that was a GUN!

(Gun, 105mm, Field, L118)

However, brearing in mind you previous service I'll just give you a warning - yellow next offence mind you!

  Been a civvy to long...

Been a civvy to long...

Or possibly your service was a while back and you are a lot older than you are letting on.

Tell me, was your last Captain blind in one eye and had an arm missing?

Do you use the term 'Broadside' to refer to a beer or a means to engaging the enemy?

Just checking.  

The military get free tickets to some Wales and Scotland games, but don't have to wear uniform. I've never seen England games on the website, but don't check it too often. The guys who have to wear uniform are the ones who do the flags etc.

TrailApe wrote:

Been a civvy to long...

Or possibly your service was a while back and you are a lot older than you are letting on.

Tell me, was your last Captain blind in one eye and had an arm missing?

Do you use the term 'Broadside' to refer to a beer or a means to engaging the enemy?

Just checking.  

Grog ration stopped in 1970...lol Worked on the 4.5 inch gun durung my time. Bugger to sponge out..

fa0019 wrote:

TrailApe wrote:

I've noticed people at England games wearing full military gear at the game. Do they not have other clothes? Or are they expecting to be attacked by foreigners at any moment?

Yeah I've noticed that. I've also noticed an old codger in full uniform with a chestful of medals at the Dublin games, he tends to mooch about with the President - is he the Irish Army?

Don't the military get free tickets to matches? Perhaps its a condition?

Trailape, the old codger in full uniform walking beside President Bilbo at the Dublin games is his aide-de-camps - essentially this is a a well-paid officer of Colonel rank who holds the umbrella over the Pres's head if it rains - a real handy number. BTW, it's not commonly known that the Irish army - about 10,000 strong has proportionately about five times the number of generals as the British army. Go figure!

A couple of people have touched on the President greeting the teams at games in Lansdowne Road. Can someone confirm where that comes from?

I've long been of the view that it came out of the GAA's ban on foreign sports, both for Irish people playing the sport and being seen in attendance. DeValera way back in the day was an avid rugby fan and the GAA threatened that if he was seen at rugby game then the Association would not support him or his political party. To qwell any issue, DeValera's going to games was formalised into official attendance by the President as the game was involving and rugby team representing 32 counties of the island of Ireland. And even a rugby great, the one and only Moss Keane, had to take the name Moss Fenton when he started playing rugby down south such was the problems that the Association could cause if someone was identified as attending games. I'm sure Michael D would have a poem about it if asked, maybe one of the captains could as at the next home game.

I for one can't stand all the faux militarism before a game. People dressed up in silly uniforms dancing around and firing pretend weapons. It's just ludicrous.

Just get on with the game. I also would be in favour of axing national anthems.

GloriousEmpire wrote:I for one can't stand all the faux militarism before a game. People dressed up in silly uniforms dancing around and firing pretend weapons. It's just ludicrous.

Just get on with the game.

Well the last time uniformed military from the UK entered an Irish stadium and fired non-pretend weapons it didn't go down too well.

GE, when you say get on with the game, do you really mean get on with the advertising? After all, if we remove the history, the pomp, the ceremony, references to the represented nations, rucking, scrummaging, adjust the values of tries and penalties to make get those non-avid rugby viewers interested, then really all rugby is doing is becoming a series of moving and stationery(?) advertising opportunities. (just listing out some of the various items that have been up on 606 the last month for the game to have changed).

Hmm, just advertising of a different kind I suspect.

If you think that stuff is bad you should see all the utter pish those SRU t its put on pre-match at The Library (this is the term that Glasgow Warrior supporters use when describing Murrayfield - for the uninitiated - most appropriate - apart from the visiting support).

I do believe that the Military should be involved in the National rugby union game. After all the National team are representing the whole country. Just like the Armed Forces, when they go into conflict, they do so for the good of the whole country.

And beside it is all ways a band from the Local army Barracks that play the Anthem/s

I've been watching quite a bit of NBA recently. They really know how how to squeeze as many advertisements in as possible.

How long until we hear Eddie Butler taking time out from the game to let us know that this TMO decision is brought to us by Cheesy Joe's Taco's, while it's logo obstructs my view as I try to gaze lovingly at Brian O'Driscoll?

I've also seen NFL matches with fighter jets flying over the stadium before kick off. I'd be against that being introduced because if we let the world know what passes for the Irish Air Force we'd probably be invaded again.

GloriousEmpire wrote:I for one can't stand all the faux militarism before a game. People dressed up in silly uniforms dancing around and firing pretend weapons. It's just ludicrous.

Just get on with the game. I also would be in favour of axing national anthems.

Says the man from the nation who's rugby team waste valuable minutes dancing around in front of their opponents with tongues hanging out and pulling really stupid faces.

I agree, just get on with the game.

I don't know if there was ever a deeper reason for the military being involved in the pre-match events. But I believe it is a nice show of respect and inclusion for the people in our military. I see this in many other countries and with other sports. Most of the time, I think there is no other reason besides this show of appreciation and respect. I think the reference to North Korea in the OP in this context is inappropriate and misplaced.

[quote="Jimpy"]

GloriousEmpire wrote:I for one can't stand all the faux militarism before a game. People dressed up in silly uniforms dancing around and firing pretend weapons. It's just ludicrous.

Just get on with the game. I also would be in favour of axing national anthems.

Says the man from the nation who's rugby team waste valuable minutes dancing around in front of their opponents with tongues hanging out and pulling really stupid faces.

I agree, just get on with the game.[/quote

I think GE advocates the players running out onto the pitch and the game starts right away. If NZ win, they earn the right to do the haka. People will invariably get to see it performed if they stick around for it.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:I for one can't stand all the faux militarism before a game. People dressed up in silly uniforms dancing around and firing pretend weapons. It's just ludicrous.

Just get on with the game. I also would be in favour of axing national anthems.

Says the man from the nation who's rugby team waste valuable minutes dancing around in front of their opponents with tongues hanging out and pulling really stupid faces.

I agree, just get on with the game.[/quote

I think GE advocates the players running out onto the pitch and the game starts right away. If NZ win, they earn the right to do the haka. People will invariably get to see it performed if they stick around for it.

Rubbish, he was going on in a condescending manner about 'faux mlitary' and 'silly uniforms' (deeply disrespectful to all serving and ex-serving forces - i'm one by the way) when the irony is that before every match the All Blacks play in, a bunch of blokes run onto the pitch (and they'd be wearing skirts if they could) and renact some traditional challenge or something, whilst sticking their tongues out and pulling silly faces. Most of them aren't even of Maouri (sp!) heritage.

Brennomac - Yeah I guessed that – I was just being a bit naughty, apologies. In the UK we generally have the Lord Lieutenant of the respective County doing something similar.

As for

and firing pretend weapons

Nothing pretend about the guns that fire at Murrayfield or just recently at Twickenham, they are still in use with dozens of armies including the British, US, The Aussies and the Kiwis – so no more or less pretend than a ceremonial war dance eh?