Time to be realistic and adult about things...

First topic message reminder :

After what seems to have been a difficult weekend for both Welsh fans and mods, I thought i'd start a thread to get everyone back on track to the reason we are all here, talking rugby!

I recognise Englands improved performance against Wales (it could hardly get worse after last year) is just what a lot of us needed, and the changing room needed it too, but lets be realistic about a few things...

The Welsh front row have not become bad players over night, it's clear we have reffing concistency issues, as we had last year. But with the new engagement laws added to a lot of analysis work they were never going to be as dominant as they had been forever, thats not to say the wheels have fallen off, just hit a bump and look shaky.

If we're being realistic Wales probably could've and should've scored at least 2 tries, pressure was the force behind some pretty glaring errors.

England were very hungry for this, and needed it way more than Wales did, going into 2015 RWC on the back of 4/5 losses on the bounce to Wales, and last 2 HQ losses too? We just had the hunger to win the game, whereas I think Wales were trying not to make mistakes first up!

If I'm being honest there were 3 key areas as to why England won;

1, the yellow card. I felt a bit for Jenkins originally, but he was warned and penalised, even after that he didn't recognise he was being watched and engaged the exact same way he had been, so he lost my sympathy.

2. Welsh half backs. Webb and Preistland just looked out of their depth, simple passes were executed poorly, timings between the backline and these 2 were way off, Webb was beating to a different drum to everyone else, and the forwards looked like they had no idea what he was doing, both kicked to a plan but did so sloppily!

3, absolutely no cahones whatsoever!!! At 72nd minute, we kicked long to half penny, outside of his 22, Wales were down by 11 points and needed something drastic, what was that something? A boot long downfield for territory with a splintered chase. How were Wales ever going to win this game if they didn't at least try? Why did no player grab the others and say 'Stuff this, we are on the verge of losing, lets try a trick play/counter attack/something different' Theres no way halfpenny gets dropped for running back a ball with both wings outside him, 11 points down with 8 minutes to go!! Even if Gatlands plan A is that rigid there has to be room for an attempt at getting something out of the game?!

I think momentum is key, but it always stops, England now have some, although we don't look like a team to worry NZ or SA yet, but at least we look like the makings of a team who potentially could next year. Wales have been stuttering, but with such a huge Lions contingent, who for a lot of guys have not played too much rugby since, their execution of the plan is the issue, players have been battered by the lions tour, then injured to return in time for international rugby, look at the players who are currently out for other nations...

Parling, Youngs, Youngs, Cole, Corbisiero, Vunipola all injured partially due to a tough lions summer, SOB, murray, Bowe, Hogg, Grant all had long spells on the sidelines too, it's not surprising that Wales forwards especially are struggling a touch, I think if someone recorded injury rates this season of the lions squad we'd all be more sympathetic to the players, even the 11 players above, who were considered 6N best are either not playing, or not playing that well at present.

In summation, France are the only team to take an actual backward step in recent years, Wales, Ireland England have little between them except circumstance, and Italy and Scotland are yet to take that next step to challenge for silverware of late.

Congrats to all winners this weekend, and to the losing teams, there is always next weekend...

Geordiefalcon, the issue here is not what happened yesterday or the day before. It is what happens next.

Then stop the WUMS.

Gents. I am here to discuss rugby tonight, I am not here to debate with you the inner workings of what happens to who.

Please respect that.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Then stop the WUMS.

You are aware of the fact that you are wumming yourself now, aren't you?

No, he's just getting wound up by the wums combined with the inaction of the mod team, with the third hit of the people that actually want to debate rugby being the ones getting pulled up by the boys in blue.

Has Scratch got compromising photos of the admin/mod team or something??

Chjw131 wrote:

quinsforever wrote:back to the OP, the reason i thought it was a wind-up, and still do in fact, is that it is wrong on a few levels IMO.

1) jenkins yellow card was awarded when the game had already gotten away from Wales. England were already playing tactically and territorially at that point given their 11-point cushion, and the "possession" that Wales were enjoying was in parts of the pitch that were not at all threatening to England

2) yes the welsh half backs were poor, but guess what, this has always always been a weakness for wales. Philips is a flanker, so when the forwards are going forward he is great, but Wales have not had a world class 10 in recent memory, and their 9s are all untried at international level. nothing new here.

3) cojones doesnt come into it. sticking to a rigid gamplan does. Wales could not get front foot ball against a far more dynamic england front 5. All of Wales problems stem from being outplayed in the front 5 at set piece and in open play, get exacerbated by a poor 9/10 and consigned to the dustbin by a kicking game that was too long with no chase. Wales clearly wanted to win, but they have forgotten how to create.

The scoreline was rather flattering to Wales. 4 of the penalties 1/2P kicked were self-inflicted by England when they were under zero pressure (1st scrum, faletau jump, hartley accidental offside after may fell over roberts, lawes not realising webb still had downward pressure).

england also eased up attacking-wise in the last 20 minutes and happily gave Wales the ball in their 22 knowing the limited threat this posed. As SCW (yes i know he's annoying) said at half time, it really was men against boys (responding to Gatland's midweek jibe), and england were only really operating at 75% effort.

i saw some comments regarding breaking the line somewhere on this thread. England broke the Welsh line frequently, Lawes, Launchbury, Burrell, Nowell, Wilson, 36 all made significant breaks. Whether they resulted in tries from the specific line break is completely irrelevant. The line breaks are what caused the pressure that caused Hibbard to knock the ball away from an offside position (1yd from welsh line) that conceded the pen that Care scored. For example.

Completely agree with this, bar England operating at 75%. Otherwise I would say spot on. I too read the OP as a bit of a tongue-in-cheek number, nicely summarised by the 'don't have a team to worry NZ or SA' line.

yes, that 75% was SCW's comment at half time, not mine.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Why has my post been reported and buy who??

I know I'm only new to these rugby boards but this is ridiculous.

You named people in your post and implied Wummery. It's a perfect way to let those people report you for breaking house rules as you are not allowed to have personal attacks, implied or otherwise.

For example: It is often alledged that previously banned posters have returned under new identities, you will often meet people who have a surprisingly recognisable style, turn of phrase etc. But if you highlight they are a banned poster you will likely pick up a ban yourself.

quinsforever wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

quinsforever wrote:back to the OP, the reason i thought it was a wind-up, and still do in fact, is that it is wrong on a few levels IMO.

1) jenkins yellow card was awarded when the game had already gotten away from Wales. England were already playing tactically and territorially at that point given their 11-point cushion, and the "possession" that Wales were enjoying was in parts of the pitch that were not at all threatening to England

2) yes the welsh half backs were poor, but guess what, this has always always been a weakness for wales. Philips is a flanker, so when the forwards are going forward he is great, but Wales have not had a world class 10 in recent memory, and their 9s are all untried at international level. nothing new here.

3) cojones doesnt come into it. sticking to a rigid gamplan does. Wales could not get front foot ball against a far more dynamic england front 5. All of Wales problems stem from being outplayed in the front 5 at set piece and in open play, get exacerbated by a poor 9/10 and consigned to the dustbin by a kicking game that was too long with no chase. Wales clearly wanted to win, but they have forgotten how to create.

The scoreline was rather flattering to Wales. 4 of the penalties 1/2P kicked were self-inflicted by England when they were under zero pressure (1st scrum, faletau jump, hartley accidental offside after may fell over roberts, lawes not realising webb still had downward pressure).

england also eased up attacking-wise in the last 20 minutes and happily gave Wales the ball in their 22 knowing the limited threat this posed. As SCW (yes i know he's annoying) said at half time, it really was men against boys (responding to Gatland's midweek jibe), and england were only really operating at 75% effort.

i saw some comments regarding breaking the line somewhere on this thread. England broke the Welsh line frequently, Lawes, Launchbury, Burrell, Nowell, Wilson, 36 all made significant breaks. Whether they resulted in tries from the specific line break is completely irrelevant. The line breaks are what caused the pressure that caused Hibbard to knock the ball away from an offside position (1yd from welsh line) that conceded the pen that Care scored. For example.

Completely agree with this, bar England operating at 75%. Otherwise I would say spot on. I too read the OP as a bit of a tongue-in-cheek number, nicely summarised by the 'don't have a team to worry NZ or SA' line.

yes, that 75% was SCW's comment at half time, not mine.

Apologies, my miss-read.

Thanks, Metal Tiger.

Though that does seem quite absurd.

This was always going to happen during this Six Nations with some really strong contenders. It's sad that it's only really after the Wales game that things have got so fractious!

I'm sorry, Wales didn't play well against Italy, Ireland or France, they didn't play well against England. I used my eyes and brain to see that. Isn't that what the OP is pointing out?

England won fairly handsomely and were better all round the park.

Priestland had a shocker because he dropped an easy catch - like Robshaw did at the MS last year. But he also had a shocker because England had him lined up and he could do nothing about it.

how about EVERYONE just ignore the poster or posters that are causing such irritation.

eventually they will either go away or grow up.

TopHat24/7 wrote:No, he's just getting wound up by the wums combined with the inaction of the mod team, with the third hit of the people that actually want to debate rugby being the ones getting pulled up by the boys in blue.

Has Scratch got compromising photos of the admin/mod team or something??

tophat, you are not a regular here on the fugby side from what I have seen, if you continue this train of thought you will suffer the same fate as the wums you are complaining about.

Hang on a minute isn't the OP English? I just had to read it again to make sure.

Same fate as the wums? That's nothing, by the looks of things.

Alas, I like reading these boards, so will shut my mouth on the matter from now on.

now that, is a very good question...

TopHat24/7 wrote:Same fate as the wums? That's nothing, by the looks of things.

Alas, I like reading these boards, so will shut my mouth on the matter from now on.

well if you really just want to read the boards, then cut loose, say what you think, have at them, etc, etc.

go out all guns blazing

Well according to Scratch England should be going for the GS on Saturday as Frances two lucky bounce tries do not count as they were not ball in hand.

Scratch

"Enlgand won , what ore do you want." GOLD GOLD GOLD and a bit of PLATINUM please.

"It doesn't matter about the manner of their victory. The yellow card changed the game and England didn't break our defensive line ball in hand. Wales had a shocker and England benefited, these things happen to Wales fans but we consistently get back the following season.

How did Burrell manage to get all the way to the line without kicking the ball then before 1/2P sacrificed his season to stop him. A could have sworn I saw a fat old prop (oldest gut in the team) out pacing the whole Welsh defence until the full back got on the 22. Must have been my old age, eyesight is going.

Didn't some guy called, Green of maybe Grey, no it was Brown, an innocuous little guy, nothing of him really, go sailing through the Welsh defence almost at will.

May got so fed up of running past defenders he started cutting inside towards the defence to give the poor blokes a chance

Who is Frances, I think I meant France's. Started on the wine a bit early.

I might want to ask a question now and again......  

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Well according to Scratch England should be going for the GS on Saturday as Frances two lucky bounce tries do not count as they were not ball in hand.

Scratch

"Enlgand won , what ore do you want."   GOLD GOLD GOLD and a bit of PLATINUM please.

"It doesn't matter about the manner of their victory. The yellow card changed the game and England didn't break our defensive line ball in hand. Wales had a shocker and England benefited, these things happen to Wales fans but we consistently get back the following season.

How did Burrell manage to get all the way to the line without kicking the ball then before 1/2P sacrificed his season to stop him. A could have sworn I saw a fat old prop (oldest gut in the team) out pacing the whole Welsh defence until the full back got on the 22. Must have been my old age, eyesight is going.

Didn't some guy called, Green of maybe Grey, no it was Brown, an innocuous little guy, nothing of him really, go sailing through the Welsh defence almost at will.

May got so fed up of running past defenders he started cutting inside towards the defence to give the poor blokes a chance

Did england score a try by breaking our line ball in hand? No, Care caught us napping and 36 kicked because Half was out of position following a lost line out, point is, Welsh mistakes lead to england tries

Burrell getting 'all the way to the line' kind of sums it up, Half did a number on him as he did on Strettle 2 years ago.

TopHat24/7 wrote:I might want to ask a question now and again......  

Don't bother TH, you will get an opinion not an answer. This board is very strong on opinion and often very short on fact. Mainly as everything we talk about is subjective. Mind you some people thing opinions have to be based in fact.

Scratch, read your statement "England didn't break our defensive line ball in hand", not England didn't score a try by breaking...........

I might add Wales didn't score a try ball in anything

Scratch wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Well according to Scratch England should be going for the GS on Saturday as Frances two lucky bounce tries do not count as they were not ball in hand.

Scratch

"Enlgand won , what ore do you want."   GOLD GOLD GOLD and a bit of PLATINUM please.

"It doesn't matter about the manner of their victory. The yellow card changed the game and England didn't break our defensive line ball in hand. Wales had a shocker and England benefited, these things happen to Wales fans but we consistently get back the following season.

How did Burrell manage to get all the way to the line without kicking the ball then before 1/2P sacrificed his season to stop him. A could have sworn I saw a fat old prop (oldest gut in the team) out pacing the whole Welsh defence until the full back got on the 22. Must have been my old age, eyesight is going.

Didn't some guy called, Green of maybe Grey, no it was Brown, an innocuous little guy, nothing of him really, go sailing through the Welsh defence almost at will.

May got so fed up of running past defenders he started cutting inside towards the defence to give the poor blokes a chance

Did england score a try by breaking our line ball in hand? No, Care caught us napping and 36 kicked because Half was out of position following  a lost line out, point is, Welsh mistakes lead to england tries

Burrell getting 'all the way to the line' kind of sums it up, Half did a number on him as he did on Strettle 2 years ago.

Which one's playing on Saturday?

maybe the IRB should change the scoring system to reflect extra credit for tries that come about as a result of line breaks?

maybe should england get half that extra credit for having made a length of the field series of line breaks (brown and then big slow prop wilson) that led to the penalty which Care strolled over the line from?

no?

then what are you on about?

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Scratch, read your statement "England didn't break our defensive line ball in hand", not England didn't score a try by breaking...........

I might add Wales didn't score a try ball in anything

Thanks, I know Wales didn't score which is very unusual for us v England. As for my statement, we were originally discussing England winning the game and how they did it, i pointed out it was as a result of mistakes by Wales - i have shown that to be true - not by line breaks ball in hand. No tries were scored by either team that way. As such my contention remains that Wales mistakes cost us the game. I stand by that.

Scratch wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Scratch, read your statement "England didn't break our defensive line ball in hand", not England didn't score a try by breaking...........

I might add Wales didn't score a try ball in anything

Thanks, I know Wales didn't score which is very unusual for us v England. As for my statement, we were originally discussing England winning the game and how they did it, i pointed out it was as a result of mistakes by Wales - i have shown that to be true - not by line breaks ball in hand. No tries were scored by either team that way. As such my contention remains that Wales mistakes cost us the game. I stand by that.

And England's mistakes kept you in it.

quinsforever wrote:maybe the IRB should change the scoring system to reflect extra credit for tries that come about as a result of line breaks?

maybe should england get half that extra credit for having made a length of the field series of line breaks (brown and then big slow prop wilson) that led to the penalty which Care strolled over the line from?

no?

then what are you on about?

come now mate, you know fully what he means, a linebreak with ball in hand means just that.

England exploited unorganised defence with the Care try and the other came from a grubber exploiting the fact that a sweeper could not cover the ball.

But either way, wether breaking the line with ball in hand or using a grubber or catching the defence off guard with a quick tap, someone wasn't in place to defend the try.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Scratch wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Scratch, read your statement "England didn't break our defensive line ball in hand", not England didn't score a try by breaking...........

I might add Wales didn't score a try ball in anything

Thanks, I know Wales didn't score which is very unusual for us v England. As for my statement, we were originally discussing England winning the game and how they did it, i pointed out it was as a result of mistakes by Wales - i have shown that to be true - not by line breaks ball in hand. No tries were scored by either team that way. As such my contention remains that Wales mistakes cost us the game. I stand by that.

And England's mistakes kept you in it.

Mistakes? You mean penalties right? Yes Half kept us in it without doubt thats his job, and had we not shipped the tries the score would have been much closer obviously.

Scratch wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Scratch wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Scratch, read your statement "England didn't break our defensive line ball in hand", not England didn't score a try by breaking...........

I might add Wales didn't score a try ball in anything

Thanks, I know Wales didn't score which is very unusual for us v England. As for my statement, we were originally discussing England winning the game and how they did it, i pointed out it was as a result of mistakes by Wales - i have shown that to be true - not by line breaks ball in hand. No tries were scored by either team that way. As such my contention remains that Wales mistakes cost us the game. I stand by that.

And England's mistakes kept you in it.

Mistakes? You mean penalties right? Yes Half kept us in it without doubt thats his job, and had we not shipped the tries the score would have been much closer obviously.

Our mistakes which led to you being awarded (note: not 'winning' as the majority were unforced errors) penalties, without which the score would have been miles wider and more reflective of England's dominance of every area of the game.

Disagree

lineouts: england lost 1 wales lost 2
scrums: england lost 1 wales lost 0

2 mistakes each from set pieces

and if care hadnt taken the quick penalty england would still have scored 3 points and wouldnt have taken their foot off the accelerator in the last 20 minutes.

you say wales were poor, i say england marred a great display with poor discipline within 1/2P's kicking range. Real margin should have been 20-30 points and would have made this weekends game against Italy more interesting.

FACT - england conceded more points from straightforward errors than Wales did

quinsforever wrote:Disagree

lineouts: england lost 1 wales lost 2
scrums: england lost 1 wales lost 0

2 mistakes each from set pieces

and if care hadnt taken the quick penalty england would still have scored 3 points and wouldnt have taken their foot off the accelerator in the last 20 minutes.

you say wales were poor, i say england marred a great display with poor discipline within 1/2P's kicking range. Real margin should have been 20-30 points and would have made this weekends game against Italy more interesting.

FACT - england conceded more points from straightforward errors than Wales did

You can't blame Wales for the ill discipline by England, can you?

Thus making the debate all about could have or should have.

A try is a try.

England dominated all facets of the game, it's not rocket science that if this happens you're more than likely to lose.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Scratch wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Scratch wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Scratch, read your statement "England didn't break our defensive line ball in hand", not England didn't score a try by breaking...........

I might add Wales didn't score a try ball in anything

Thanks, I know Wales didn't score which is very unusual for us v England. As for my statement, we were originally discussing England winning the game and how they did it, i pointed out it was as a result of mistakes by Wales - i have shown that to be true - not by line breaks ball in hand. No tries were scored by either team that way. As such my contention remains that Wales mistakes cost us the game. I stand by that.

And England's mistakes kept you in it.

Mistakes? You mean penalties right? Yes Half kept us in it without doubt thats his job, and had we not shipped the tries the score would have been much closer obviously.

Our mistakes which led to you being awarded (note: not 'winning' as the majority were unforced errors) penalties, without which the score would have been miles wider and more reflective of England's dominance of every area of the game.

Pointless debating this with you we have contrary OPINIONS, you think England dominated us and i disagree, we screwed up and made terrible mistake which England exploited, we played poorly ok. We still kept in touch thanks to penalties you gave away and Half's kicking kept us in the game until the yellow.

It seems you and other posters want your pound of flesh and to admit the manner of your victory was similar to the one inflicted on you last year and i disagree that was the case. Its my opinion and i am entitled to it, i find it odd that several of you are so concerned what old Scratch thinks anyway.

Biltong wrote:

quinsforever wrote:maybe the IRB should change the scoring system to reflect extra credit for tries that come about as a result of line breaks?

maybe should england get half that extra credit for having made a length of the field series of line breaks (brown and then big slow prop wilson) that led to the penalty which Care strolled over the line from?

no?

then what are you on about?

come now mate, you know fully what he means, a linebreak with ball in hand means just that.

England exploited unorganised defence with the Care try and the other came from a grubber exploiting the fact that a sweeper could not cover the ball.

But either way, wether breaking the line with ball in hand or using a grubber or catching the defence off guard with a quick tap, someone wasn't in place to defend the try.

who cares? a try is a try is a try. the laws are as they are, all teams suit their game around weaknesses in opposition. england ran around the welsh rush defense rather than through it. pretty sensible if you ask me. made just as many line breaks (for a backline which is rated far weaker than Wales's) as Wales [6].

Wales avoided kicking to touch because...they KNEW their lineout was weak, and England's strong. So it's no surprise that they lost one more of their own lineouts than England did. But that is not nothing to do with England.

quinsforever wrote:

Biltong wrote:

quinsforever wrote:maybe the IRB should change the scoring system to reflect extra credit for tries that come about as a result of line breaks?

maybe should england get half that extra credit for having made a length of the field series of line breaks (brown and then big slow prop wilson) that led to the penalty which Care strolled over the line from?

no?

then what are you on about?

come now mate, you know fully what he means, a linebreak with ball in hand means just that.

England exploited unorganised defence with the Care try and the other came from a grubber exploiting the fact that a sweeper could not cover the ball.

But either way, wether breaking the line with ball in hand or using a grubber or catching the defence off guard with a quick tap, someone wasn't in place to defend the try.

who cares? a try is a try is a try. the laws are as they are, all teams suit their game around weaknesses in opposition. england ran around the welsh rush defense rather than through it. pretty sensible if you ask me. made just as many line breaks (for a backline which is rated far weaker than Wales's) as Wales [6].

Wales avoided kicking to touch because...they KNEW their lineout was weak, and England's strong. So it's no surprise that they lost one more of their own lineouts than England did. But that is not nothing to do with England.

I am not disagreeing with you, I totally agree the manner in which a try is scored is neither here nor there, it exploits a weakness.

Just a qyuestion


Is Care's not a line break with ball in hand?

He had the ball in his hand. He ran at the defensive line. Broke it and then scored...

quinsforever wrote:

Biltong wrote:

quinsforever wrote:maybe the IRB should change the scoring system to reflect extra credit for tries that come about as a result of line breaks?

maybe should england get half that extra credit for having made a length of the field series of line breaks (brown and then big slow prop wilson) that led to the penalty which Care strolled over the line from?

no?

then what are you on about?

come now mate, you know fully what he means, a linebreak with ball in hand means just that.

England exploited unorganised defence with the Care try and the other came from a grubber exploiting the fact that a sweeper could not cover the ball.

But either way, wether breaking the line with ball in hand or using a grubber or catching the defence off guard with a quick tap, someone wasn't in place to defend the try.

who cares? a try is a try is a try. the laws are as they are, all teams suit their game around weaknesses in opposition. england ran around the welsh rush defense rather than through it. pretty sensible if you ask me. made just as many line breaks (for a backline which is rated far weaker than Wales's) as Wales [6].

Wales avoided kicking to touch because...they KNEW their lineout was weak, and England's strong. So it's no surprise that they lost one more of their own lineouts than England did. But that is not nothing to do with England.

apparently you do, all i have done is explained who you breached our defense and clearly that is causing disquiet.

Doesn't remove the fact that the tries were scored following welsh errors, they still count, you won this time. Well done.

Riskysports wrote:Just a qyuestion


Is Care's not a line break with ball in hand?

He had the ball in his hand. He ran at the defensive line. Broke it and then scored...

Care's try there was no defence, the Welsh had to fall back behind the line and his quick tap meant they weren't allowed to defend.

I can't recall Wales threatening our line at all, we were never under the cosh like we were against the Irish.

Most of our defensive work was at the 22 line and Wales just had nothing to break us down.

It was pretty simple rugby in defence, put the tackles in and Wales made the mistakes. The Welsh attack was extremely blunt, passing to North seemed the only tactic.

Biltong wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Disagree

lineouts: england lost 1 wales lost 2
scrums: england lost 1 wales lost 0

2 mistakes each from set pieces

and if care hadnt taken the quick penalty england would still have scored 3 points and wouldnt have taken their foot off the accelerator in the last 20 minutes.

you say wales were poor, i say england marred a great display with poor discipline within 1/2P's kicking range. Real margin should have been 20-30 points and would have made this weekends game against Italy more interesting.

FACT - england conceded more points from straightforward errors than Wales did

You can't blame Wales for the ill discipline by England, can you?

Thus making the debate all about could have or should have.

no i'm not blaming wales for anything. i'm saying "england marred a great display with poor discipline within 1/2P's kicking range. Real margin should have been 20-30 points and would have made this weekends game against Italy more interesting."

Look, why can't we just agree to disagree, i won't change my perspective on the game and nor will you.

Biltong wrote:

Riskysports wrote:Just a qyuestion


Is Care's not a line break with ball in hand?

He had the ball in his hand. He ran at the defensive line. Broke it and then scored...

Care's try there was no defence, the Welsh had to fall back behind the line and his quick tap meant they weren't allowed to defend.

Some of them were able to defend (One fell over) - but does not stop the point that it was a line break :-)

quinsforever wrote:

Biltong wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Disagree

lineouts: england lost 1 wales lost 2
scrums: england lost 1 wales lost 0

2 mistakes each from set pieces

and if care hadnt taken the quick penalty england would still have scored 3 points and wouldnt have taken their foot off the accelerator in the last 20 minutes.

you say wales were poor, i say england marred a great display with poor discipline within 1/2P's kicking range. Real margin should have been 20-30 points and would have made this weekends game against Italy more interesting.

FACT - england conceded more points from straightforward errors than Wales did

You can't blame Wales for the ill discipline by England, can you?

Thus making the debate all about could have or should have.

no i'm not blaming wales for anything. i'm saying "england marred a great display with poor discipline within 1/2P's kicking range. Real margin should have been 20-30 points and would have made this weekends game against Italy more interesting."

Yes. England marred their performance with ill discipline, but to suggest Wales should have lost by 20-30 points is disingenuous, Farrell kicked five penalties himself, so what if Wales had more discipline?

It isn't like their penalties were conceded in the red zone under pressure either, Gethin Jenkins gave away three penalties alone at scrumtime.

AS a neutral I would say that England did dominate Wales and really had them under the cosh. It stopped them having a chance to play. That linked to the strange tactic of kicking the ball away, they never really looked like making any in-dents

Compared to last year, I think is 2013 Wales were more dominate that England were in 2014 (subjective I know), but England look really strong just now - and if they could get 2 international class wingers, they would be really a contender next year

Scratch wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Scratch wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Scratch wrote:The yellow card broke our backs, England scored 2 opportunist tries and didn't look like scoring ball in hand because our defense was solid, wales didn't look like scoring at all and failed to maintain any possession and any pressure.
Wales 9/10 axis was a big mistake.

Halfpenny was awesome.

Care's try was opportunistic (unbelievably naïve from the Welsh),  Burrell's was very well worked and planned and the one that got away resembled something I would have expected from a rampant Welsh side allowed to pass the ball.

Both tries were off the back off pressure in the Welsh 22, that's not opportunist (another interesting comment from Scratch).

England should of scored more tries but we messed up overlaps on a number of occasions.  

The score line doesn't really tell the story of the game, England should have won by more.

neither of england's tries were as a result of breaking our defense ball in hand

Care's was opportunist and as a result of poor discipline at a pen

Burrell's a grubber

Point is England did not break our defensive line ball in hand to score

And the score line does tell the 'story of the game', perfectly in fact, because that is what the score was.

So a try doesn't really count unless it's "ball in hand"..........that's sinking to new lows even for you.

Unfortuantly if you manage to kick the ball past the defensive line and re-gather it, that is breaking the line. I know it's a little hard to understand how England could possibly get two tries but it happened, just move on.

I'm really unfussed by the win now, it's been and gone. What interests me is how you (and a few others) are trying to claim some sort of moral victory from a game England dominated.

Can we please just move on?

Oh dear, it seems it is you who is unable to move on as you keep laboring the same tired point.

Enlgand won , what ore do you want.

It doesn't matter about the manner of their victory. The yellow card changed the game and England didn't break our defensive line ball in hand. Wales had a shocker and England benefited, these things happen to Wales fans but we consistently get back the following season.

  which game were you watching!!

Nathan

Glad you got so much enjoyment from that, we were discussing try scoring england didn't score a try by breaking our defensive line ball in hand.

Scratch wrote:Nathan

Glad you got so much enjoyment from that, we were discussing try scoring england didn't score a try by breaking our defensive line ball in hand.

England did score 2 tries though and should have had more with their dominance.

Scratch wrote:Nathan

Glad you got so much enjoyment from that, we were discussing try scoring england didn't score a try by breaking our defensive line ball in hand.

Dont play that card, your very much aware of your own posts before the game....

perhaps i should of just replied with 29 - 18

nathan wrote:

Scratch wrote:Nathan

Glad you got so much enjoyment from that, we were discussing try scoring england didn't score a try by breaking our defensive line ball in hand.

Dont play that card, your very much aware of your own posts before the game....

perhaps i should of just replied with 29 - 18

? not playing a card at all, you've used what i wrote incorrectly in this debate which was about how wales lost the game by conceding tries due to mistakes and not having their defensive line breached ball in hand, not sure why i keep needing to clarify that point as it is clear and obvious

posts before the game are irrelevant to this issue however your reference to same suggests you are just looking for a rise, you won't get one here ok