Scotland's Peanas Count
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Scotland's Peanas Count
Of concern to me over the last 5-10 years has been what I attributed to my own perception bias that Scotland's international side seemed to get the 'wrong' side of the 50:50 ref calls more than half the time. At first this was only an annoyance as we would still get a fair chance to compete in the games but over time I have become more concerned that the knock-on effect of losing more games because of this helps cement a perception that we are always the weaker side and therefore always at fault. Under Robinson we were always apparently 'one pass' away from crossing the whitewash instead I remember being penalised while in possession in promising positions - which were of course immediately lost as the opposition are given a pressure free chance to clear the lines, and while defending also being penalised allowing opposition kicks at goal or to the corner. Opportunities were hard enough to convert without them being taken away at source by perceptions and interpretations.
I let this lie dormant for many years and a source of annoyance only to my partner as I repeatedly point this out to her during matches, however this week the penalty counts have come to the fore in the media and I feel compelled to put my ancient rant up here. How can it be then, that in a two team sport and when one side is not being completely dominated in all facets (therefore relentlessly committing illegal acts to prevent scores) the penalty count not be roughly equal (the rules of statistics would have it that way). I cannot fathom how at half time in the French match we could be 11-2 against in the penalty count unless the referees perception of strong and weak is playing a part. Look at the first scrum - the referee awarded penalty to France, when have you seen that happen before?!
I have not (am too lazy and ignorant) sought the penalty stats from the other games but I suspect a similar picture was present. I am actually glad that SJ has formally raised this with the IRB as if it continues unchecked it will be harder to compete at any level in the 6n as only Italy are perceived to be a weaker team at the moment. Next time you watch Scotland play - pay half an eye to what the referee takes away and when it happens. Imagine it were your team and how much of a difference that would make....
p.s The last time I saw a game that felt untainted by perceptions was Jaco Peyper in the Australia match in Newcastle - scrum penalty to win the match in the last few mins - would have bet a mortgage on the more established refs giving it the other direction. I was going to mention the SA match this summer but then remembered the video ref trying desperately to influence the match.
Rant over - your thoughts, am I mad or are we 'unluckier' than some?
I let this lie dormant for many years and a source of annoyance only to my partner as I repeatedly point this out to her during matches, however this week the penalty counts have come to the fore in the media and I feel compelled to put my ancient rant up here. How can it be then, that in a two team sport and when one side is not being completely dominated in all facets (therefore relentlessly committing illegal acts to prevent scores) the penalty count not be roughly equal (the rules of statistics would have it that way). I cannot fathom how at half time in the French match we could be 11-2 against in the penalty count unless the referees perception of strong and weak is playing a part. Look at the first scrum - the referee awarded penalty to France, when have you seen that happen before?!
I have not (am too lazy and ignorant) sought the penalty stats from the other games but I suspect a similar picture was present. I am actually glad that SJ has formally raised this with the IRB as if it continues unchecked it will be harder to compete at any level in the 6n as only Italy are perceived to be a weaker team at the moment. Next time you watch Scotland play - pay half an eye to what the referee takes away and when it happens. Imagine it were your team and how much of a difference that would make....
p.s The last time I saw a game that felt untainted by perceptions was Jaco Peyper in the Australia match in Newcastle - scrum penalty to win the match in the last few mins - would have bet a mortgage on the more established refs giving it the other direction. I was going to mention the SA match this summer but then remembered the video ref trying desperately to influence the match.
Rant over - your thoughts, am I mad or are we 'unluckier' than some?
takethelongroad- Posts : 99
Join date : 2011-07-20
Location : London, UK
Re: Scotland's Peanas Count
Its a bit of both.
I think we dont get the "rub of the green" as they say but our own bias means 50/50 calls will be viewed by us as unfair if they go against us.
The only way to stop this is to stop giving away penalties! If I were involved in the SRU set up, I'd be getting the meanest ref around to come and talk to the boys and go over some footage of games. Let us see where we are going wrong.
Is this allowed by the IRB? Coaching by refs?
We got a ref into our club once to go over things but this level is slightly different!
I think we dont get the "rub of the green" as they say but our own bias means 50/50 calls will be viewed by us as unfair if they go against us.
The only way to stop this is to stop giving away penalties! If I were involved in the SRU set up, I'd be getting the meanest ref around to come and talk to the boys and go over some footage of games. Let us see where we are going wrong.
Is this allowed by the IRB? Coaching by refs?
We got a ref into our club once to go over things but this level is slightly different!
tigertattie- Posts : 9581
Join date : 2011-07-11
Location : On the naughty step
Re: Scotland's Peanas Count
I would be amazed if the Scottish management did not have refs coming in, certainly England do. however it tends to be the head of Refereeing within that country. Often though problems arise through interpretations differing. We all talk about the difference in emphasis and interpretation between NH and SH, but there are marked differences in how RabovAPvT14 matches are reffed.
Also what a fan sees as 50/50, the neutral will see as 70/30.
Also what a fan sees as 50/50, the neutral will see as 70/30.
LondonTiger- Moderator
- Posts : 23485
Join date : 2011-02-10
Re: Scotland's Peanas Count
That may be our problem. We dont have a top level ref. We have Dave Chan who I've only ever seen running touch!
tigertattie- Posts : 9581
Join date : 2011-07-11
Location : On the naughty step
Re: Scotland's Peanas Count
How about Scotland just don't have the skill level to avoid penalties at this level against intense opposition?
I'm Scottish as you know but ... just saying.
11-2 penalty count against France was our fault, with possible exception of that stupid first scrum. And that scrum didn't lose us the game, how we played in the 2nd half lost us the game.
I'm Scottish as you know but ... just saying.
11-2 penalty count against France was our fault, with possible exception of that stupid first scrum. And that scrum didn't lose us the game, how we played in the 2nd half lost us the game.
Guest- Guest
Re: Scotland's Peanas Count
Ineffable, If it is down to skill level why is Italy's count closer to France and England's than Scotland's?
I'm not so sure we were under significant pressure against France (until the last ten) and had to give away relieving penalties. There was a similar penalty count in the Ireland vs Italy match but there the score line reflected the difference, not a one point match.
Very interested to see what is made of the scrums today, fingers crossed for a good spectacle.
I'm not so sure we were under significant pressure against France (until the last ten) and had to give away relieving penalties. There was a similar penalty count in the Ireland vs Italy match but there the score line reflected the difference, not a one point match.
Very interested to see what is made of the scrums today, fingers crossed for a good spectacle.
takethelongroad- Posts : 99
Join date : 2011-07-20
Location : London, UK
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