BOD

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What can I say.


      


Best NH player ever.

Thank you for the memories.

One of the great

Scrumpy wrote:Are you honestly telling me that you think Gareth Edwards is a better player than BOD?

Yes Edwards was good and he would have been useful even by today’s standards, but the quality of the players around him was poor; BOD on the other hand has stood out as a top performer for so long he has to be regarded as a better player.

Two things.

One, I was wondering how long this thread would take to deviate even slightly. It's always the same, when a certain player gets praise egos bristle, prompting people to turn to whatever example they can to subdue the praise and turn attention back to something they feel comfortable about. I.e. "Oh no! I don't want BOD's rep to overshadow someone I liked better. Better steer the conversation so people start praising my guy again!" etc. That's not the point of the f**king thread. If you want to compare start a new one and call it Greatest Rugby Player Ever or something. T*ssers. Absolute t*ssers.

Secondly Scrump, there are other ways of responding rather than spouting made-up shoite in your own right. Poor quality indeed! You mean JPR, JJ Williams, Ray Gravell, Gerald Davies, Phil Bennett, Barry John, Graham Price and the countless stars Edwards played alongside with the Lions. Are they the poor quality of player you're on about?

Absolutely top class player, and the best NH back of my lifetime. Two things I really like:

1. He left at the right time, still worthy of his place in the side. All too often you see players hanging on, relying on their reputation, or making ill-advised comebacks (I suppose there's still time.....), but BOD left the side still deserving his place in it, and contributing to a Championship win.

2. Despite coming through as a superb attacking outside centre, he worked tirelessly in defence and on his contact skills. Whilst his pace and swerve left him slightly in the last season or so, his handling skills, vision and perhaps most keenly his defensive attributes still marked him out as a very good centre indeed. The next best NH 13 in my lifetime was Jeremy Guscott, as good a player as he is bad as a pundit, but when comparing the two you may well allow Guscott to shade it as an attacking force and as an athlete (I would say he had the edge in terms of pace), but BOD was a more complete player being such a great defender, as well as a leader within the side.

Sad to see him retire, but if he can replace Wood or Guscott with the BBC then every cloud....

Knowsit17 wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Are you honestly telling me that you think Gareth Edwards is a better player than BOD?

Yes Edwards was good and he would have been useful even by today’s standards, but the quality of the players around him was poor; BOD on the other hand has stood out as a top performer for so long he has to be regarded as a better player.

Two things.

One, I was wondering how long this thread would take to deviate even slightly. It's always the same, when a certain player gets praise egos bristle, prompting people to turn to whatever example they can to subdue the praise and turn attention back to something they feel comfortable about. I.e. "Oh no! I don't want BOD's rep to overshadow someone I liked better. Better steer the conversation so people start praising my guy again!" etc. That's not the point of the f**king thread. If you want to compare start a new one and call it Greatest Rugby Player Ever or something. T*ssers. Absolute t*ssers.

Secondly Scrump, there are other ways of responding rather than spouting made-up shoite in your own right. Poor quality indeed! You mean JPR, JJ Williams, Ray Gravell, Gerald Davies, Phil Bennett, Barry John, Graham Price and the countless stars Edwards played alongside with the Lions. Are they the poor quality of player you're on about?

I'm sorry but greatness encompasses both skill and achievement.

Gareth Edwards is world renowned as the worlds greatest player. Here in SA, he's known as the world's greatest player.

One of the only men to have a series win in both SA and NZ... where he started all 8 tests matches in 71 & 74. He had all the tools to stand out now as he did then.

BOD achievements, for all the 6N glory (albeit only 2 out of 15 championships played) its not quite on the same level as a RWC or a Lions series.

His record in the RWC isn't great. 4 tournaments, 2 pool stage KOs and 2 QFs (where both times were beaten up badly)... not great when you consider the quality he played amongst too.

Lions tour.... was a great find in 01, unlucky in 05, defensively a rock in 09 but showed nothing in attack and was past his peak in 13. Performances where consistently top draw but perhaps not what you would expect of a "great" player who you would expect to lead the line. 05 was his peak time so for him to be robbed is a great shame I'm sure on a professional point of view.

Given that can we really argue for him to be the greatest in the NH. Too obtuse in my mind.

If people say he played in a poor team.... how about this into the works then

Hugo Porta - played for Argentina for 20 years and achieved wins against England, France and Australia. Took the 82 Jaguars to SA and got a series draw winning the final and second test.

He took an Argentina team to SA.. and drew a series.

Considering that the era saw the boks at their very finest, the achievement he made with the Jaguars is probably one of the finest in the sport's history. The jaguars were the South American jaguars yes... but in the test series every single player was from Argentina. It was Argentina vs. SA.

He had some good players around him too.... but he was the star man and his achievements relative to his squads talent expectations supercedes that of someone like BOD in my opinion. I saw him play in his near 40s and he was still good back then.

I have great admiration for BOD please don't get me wrong. But when people say he's the greatest ever its just too much to swallow.
If thats the case then Charlie Hodgson is the greatest flyhalf England have played in 30 years probably ever..... in my mind the most talented (actual true opinion).
Talent does not equal greatness. Greatness is not taking apart the 4th, 5th, 6th , 10th and 14th sides in the world... Its taking on the 1st, 2nd & 3rd and winning.

'Greatest Northern Hemisphere back to have played entire career in the pro era (along with Wilkinson)' may be reasonably accurate but isn't going to drive autobiography sales.

funnyExiledScot wrote:The next best NH 13 in my lifetime was Jeremy Guscott, as good a player as he is bad as a pundit, but when comparing the two you may well allow Guscott to shade it as an attacking force and as an athlete (I would say he had the edge in terms of pace)

Interesting comparison - Guscott was a classy attacking player for sure but I honestly don't believe he could have scored some of the tries O'Driscoll did in his peak - particularly circa 2000-2006. Furthermore Guscott didn't have anything like the work ethic and commitment that O'Driscoll did - its a lot harder to be popping up scoring tries and making breaks when you are also contesting rucks and piling into tackles the way Drico did. I'd say that if BOD had of approached the game the way Jerry did, he wouldn't have suffered the injuries and could be still scoring tries and making breaks into his 40's. Phil de Glanville, Carling and Gibbs went a long way to making Jerry look his best.

Allan Bateman and Jauzion were the closest NH centres to BOD for me - and internationally Tim Horan, Frank Bunce and Conrad Smith. For me Drico was another level up to all of them.

If you go on you tube you will literally find an example of O'Driscoll performing every imaginable skill on a rugby field, often more than once - 60m tries, great passes, drop goals, big hits, turn overs, tap tackles, intercepts, searing breaks, passes to himself, reverse offloads, chip and volleys, pick ups on the run... I can't think of any other outside back who's demonstrated even close to such a skillset in the modern era, not even close.

Rodders - on work ethic and commitment I completely agree with you. In those aspects BOD was head and shoulders above Guscott. Guscott was blessed with superb athletic ability and scorching pace. In attacking aspects of the game I think they are pretty well matched, but the reason Guscott comes in second place for me is, as you suggest, work ethic, commitment, defence and leadership qualities. BOD is comfortably ahead on those aspects of the game, albeit (in my opinion) being very closely matches in attack.

Jauzion was a better inside centre for my money, so I don't really compare to BOD and Guscott. Bateman was a fine player, but again certainly behind BOD and Guscott in my opinion (and Sella as well, who I'd probably place 3rd in my list of NH outside centres).

Outside of the NH the principal challengers to BOD in my lifetime would be Jason Little and Conrad Smith. Again, I'm discounting inside centres like SBW, Bunce and (in particular) Horan.

 Well, the highest praise I can think of is that used by the Barmy Army in singing Shane Warne out of Ashes cricket:

'We wish you were English'

Great player, and one of the two best NH centres I have seen (Sella being the other). Best 13 of the pro era? Very possibly, and certainly a player who defined what it meant to be a professional, in how he adapted his game over the years and worked to improve his skills across all facets of the game.

Scrumpy wrote:Are you honestly telling me that you think Gareth Edwards is a better player than BOD?

Yes Edwards was good and he would have been useful even by today’s standards, but the quality of the players around him was poor; BOD on the other hand has stood out as a top performer for so long he has to be regarded as a better player.

Yes

Scrumpy wrote:Scratch has left the building!

No he hasn't

Why don't you make yourself useful and change your 'Are Wales fans happy with a 50% win rate" to 'Are England fans happy with coming 2nd in the 6 Nations'

Back to the subject of the thread

BOD
Modern great, unsurpassed, an all time great.

IMO not as good as Gareth Edwards.   

rodders wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:The next best NH 13 in my lifetime was Jeremy Guscott, as good a player as he is bad as a pundit, but when comparing the two you may well allow Guscott to shade it as an attacking force and as an athlete (I would say he had the edge in terms of pace)

Interesting comparison - Guscott was a classy attacking player for sure but I honestly don't believe he could have scored some of the tries O'Driscoll did in his peak - particularly circa 2000-2006. Furthermore Guscott didn't have anything like the work ethic and commitment that O'Driscoll did - its a lot harder to be popping up scoring tries and making breaks when you are also contesting rucks and piling into tackles the way Drico did. I'd say that if BOD had of approached the game the way Jerry did, he wouldn't have suffered the injuries and could be still scoring tries and making breaks into his 40's. Phil de Glanville, Carling and Gibbs went a long way to making Jerry look his best.

Allan Bateman and Jauzion were the closest NH centres to BOD for me - and internationally Tim Horan, Frank Bunce and Conrad Smith. For me Drico was another level up to all of them.

If you go on you tube you will literally find an example of O'Driscoll performing every imaginable skill on a rugby field, often more than once - 60m tries, great passes, drop goals, big hits, turn overs, tap tackles, intercepts, searing breaks, passes to himself, reverse offloads, chip and volleys, pick ups on the run... I can't think of any other outside back who's demonstrated even close to such a skillset in the modern era, not even close.

Guscott didn't have the defence of BOD but I think he was a better attacker... He got 30 tries for England remember, not impressive??? We'll that is impressive for a side that played 10 man rugby. Had he played in the Ireland team of BODs era he would of slammed home opportunity after opportunity.

If there is a player like him today it's probably fofana... Smooth running style, great balance.

Also he was a proven winner. He was instrumental in 1989 lions and 1997. He's a lions legend....I can't say anyone from the last 10 years is a lions legend to be honest... Getting caps is not quite good enough. Maybe North.
He wasn't a leader but he was the ace in pack.... I don't think the 89 lions would have won without him. Big diff between the 89 AUS team and the 2013 one... One was the best side in the world coming up, the other was barely treading water at 3rd.... I think had Wales, Ireland or England gone down to AUS that summer they would have won the series.

I am one Irish supporter who said that BOD should have retired before this year.  He has played well in the 6Ns - better than in either of the past two or three seasons imo.

Having said that, I have always said he was a truly great rugby player (although I personally think Mike Gibson was better and I always had a soft spot for Brendan Mullin).  Be that as it may, these are personal opinions and we could argue them till the cows came home and went out again and we would come no nearer agreeing with each other.

I think it will be a few years before we can really assess BOD's lasting influence.  Some people say he redefined centre play.  If so, then we should be seeing other centres doing the things that BOD had in his arsenal which were not considered part of the usual weaponry of an OC.

In the meantime I will leave you with some statistics from Monday's Times under the heading Mr Consistency.  Whether you believe the stats tell you everything or nothing is, in some respects, irrelevant, but they can give you some information and food for thought.

It is a measure of the extraordinary career of Brian O’Driscoll that, taken from when the Six Nations began in 2000, he can claim to have finished in the top three of almost every significant statistical category.

Tries O’Driscoll 26; Shane Williams (Wales) 22; Ben Cohen (England) 16.

Try assists Jonny Wilkinson (England) 17; Ronan O’Gara (Ireland); 17; O’Driscoll, 16.

Carries Sergio Parisse (Italy), 524; O’Driscoll 498; Chris Paterson (Scotland), 377.

Tackles Martyn Williams (Wales) 467; O’Driscoll 457; David Wallace (Ireland) 389.

Metres O’Driscoll 2,546; Paterson 2,393; Parisse 2,393.

Turnovers won O’Driscoll, 53; Malcolm O’Kelly (Ireland) 32; Paul O’Connell (Ireland) 32.

Clean breaks O’Driscoll 67; Shane Williams 50; Paterson 34.

Impressive really however you look at them (and whatever your opinion of BOD).  And just think, those you who are still in your early youth of watching rugby.  When the next truly "Great" centre comes along, in about forty or fifty years time, you will be saying to callow youths "Well I saw BOD play, and this guy isn't a patch on BOD" 

kiarose...what is the equivalent rate per test for each?. I mean hes played more tests than anyone. Surely numbers alone arent a clear guide?

The fact that Chris Paterson is up there in clean breaks says something about those stats. The guy couldn't make a clean break to save his life and had the pace of a 2 legged disabled donkey.

BOD got 140+ caps.... of course he will have better stats then anyone else... he's played double the amount of games of most chaps with 10 year careers.

Ben Cohen scored 16 tries in only 29 6N appearances. Although he was a gas man, the minute injuries took its toll he slowed right up and was replaced by the next 22 year old speedster for his 5 years career.

Chris Paterson got 800+ points and over 100 caps for Scotland... a record in both. He even lies 3rd in tries scored with 22 (24 being the record).

Now that would suggest Paterson is the greatest Scotland player of all time.

Sorry but if anyone even suggested he was the boot boy to the greatest scottish player of all time I would imagine they are resident in a loony bin.

If Paterson played rugby in the 70s & 80s he wouldn't have even been capped.

Stats such as those have to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Disagree on Patterson - he was a fantastic player for Scotland in a very medicocre era for them.

Stats don't tell the full story but they don't lie either.

I'd say the stats for O'Driscoll don't come close to doing him justice as a player.

For example Ireland for much of his tenure struggled to have a platform from the scrum, which meant Ireland tended to play a lot of rugby from the back foot.

They don't show the periods of serious injury which he came back from - post Lions in 2005, the prolonged shoulder nerve problem which dogged him until after the RWC. The numerous hamstring problems that affected his pace early in his career.

The most impressive stat about O'Driscoll was that he even reached 100 caps, let alone 140 given the amount of injuries he had and workrate he got through in such a physical position.

rodders wrote:Disagree on Patterson - he was a fantastic player for Scotland in a very medicocre era for them.

Stats don't tell the full story but they don't lie either.

I'd say the stats for O'Driscoll don't come close to doing him justice as a player.

For example Ireland for much of his tenure struggled to have a platform from the scrum, which meant Ireland tended to play a lot of rugby from the back foot.

They don't show the periods of serious injury which he came back from - post Lions in 2005, the prolonged shoulder nerve problem which dogged him until after the RWC. The numerous hamstring problems that affected his pace early in his career.

The most impressive stat about O'Driscoll was that he even reached 100 caps, let alone 140 given the amount of injuries he had and workrate he got through in such a physical position.

Ireland played a lot of its rugby from the lineout. Most the tries in the GS in 09 came off the Lineout.

Notch wrote:This has been made about one player but really the thread should pay tribute to;

Cian Healy
Jack McGrath
Rory Best
Sean Cronin
Mike Ross
Martin Moore
Paul O'Connell
Devin Toner
Dan Tuohy
Iain Henderson
Peter O'Mahony
Rhys Ruddock
Chris Henry
Tommy O'Donnell
Jordi Murphy
Jamie Heaslip
Conor Murray
Isaac Boss
Eoin Reddan
Jonathon Sexton
Paddy Jackson
Ian Madigan
Dave Kearney
Luke Marshall
Gordon D'Arcy
Brian O'Driscoll
Fergus McFadden
Andrew Trimble
Rob Kearney

Because this year it was down to the ultimate squad effort! Great teamwork from all the guys.

We didn't use enough players.

OK let’s clear up a few things.

BOD is the greatest NH player of the modern era*, end of, not just my opinion but the opinion of many great past and present players who opinions I regard higher than a few angry keyboard warriors with their own biased strong opinions. (Which most of the time has little to do with rugby)

*(by 'greatest NH player of the modern era' I mean best ever NH player, as the amateur era in comparison was well, amateur! more about drinking beer singing a few sing songs and having a good time at the weekend instead of full on bish bash bosh and then get up and do it all again the following week)

  

rodders wrote:Disagree on Patterson - he was a fantastic player for Scotland in a very medicocre era for them.

Stats don't tell the full story but they don't lie either.

I'd say the stats for O'Driscoll don't come close to doing him justice as a player.

For example Ireland for much of his tenure struggled to have a platform from the scrum, which meant Ireland tended to play a lot of rugby from the back foot.

They don't show the periods of serious injury which he came back from - post Lions in 2005, the prolonged shoulder nerve problem which dogged him until after the RWC. The numerous hamstring problems that affected his pace early in his career.

The most impressive stat about O'Driscoll was that he even reached 100 caps, let alone 140 given the amount of injuries he had and workrate he got through in such a physical position.

that certainly says more about BOD than the stats do and I think thats the heart of why he's generally seen as one of the greats...his utter loyalty to the game, Ireland and Irish rugby, overcoming the odds, injuries et all. Those are the sorts of things that will be remembered.

Great to see BOD going out in style. You can talk about stats etc but the real thing was his effect on the team. That's something that's harder to measure.


Ireland won't miss him though - on the field. He was past his best by many years now and in defends he was struggling to contain the big centres coming down his way.

Attack wise some creativity is lost but there are others who will make up for that.

Scrumpy wrote:OK let’s clear up a few things.

BOD is the greatest NH player of the modern era*, end of, not just my opinion but the opinion of many great past and present players who opinions I regard higher than a few angry keyboard warriors with their own biased strong opinions. (Which most of the time has little to do with rugby)

*(by 'greatest NH player of the modern era' I mean best ever NH player, as the amateur era in comparison was well, amateur!  more about drinking beer singing a few sing songs and having a good time at the weekend instead of full on bish bash bosh and then get up and do it all again the following week)

  

Well those amateur players in the NH esp. in the 70s took the game to the kiwis' and the bokke and they beat them... at their own game and in their own backyard.
The professionals for all their icebaths, weightroom regimes and foreign coaches now are as far away from those 2 sides as they have ever been.

lets not pretend a lions victory against AUS means much today... it doesn't. Its mount Kilamanjaro compared to the Himalayas.

yes but imagine the pressure on the incumbant that has little time to become Irelands 13 at the main event...can hear the bring back BOD chants already...

rodders wrote:Disagree on Patterson - he was a fantastic player for Scotland in a very medicocre era for them.

Stats don't tell the full story but they don't lie either.

I'd say the stats for O'Driscoll don't come close to doing him justice as a player.

For example Ireland for much of his tenure struggled to have a platform from the scrum, which meant Ireland tended to play a lot of rugby from the back foot.

They don't show the periods of serious injury which he came back from - post Lions in 2005, the prolonged shoulder nerve problem which dogged him until after the RWC. The numerous hamstring problems that affected his pace early in his career.

The most impressive stat about O'Driscoll was that he even reached 100 caps, let alone 140 given the amount of injuries he had and workrate he got through in such a physical position.

Paterson never made it onto a lions tour. I don't think any of us had any complaints either. He was a jobber, the best at the time and skilled at the inside the 10m line kick but he wasn't a top player.

Ask any Gloucester fan what they think of Paterson!

Looking at the 100 Cap Club is interesting:

[th][/th][th][/th][th][/th][th][/th][th][/th][th][/th][th][/th]

1	141	Brian O'Driscoll	Ireland (133) British and Irish Lions (8)	1999–2014	Centre
2	139	George Gregan	Australia	1994–2007	Scrum-half
3	130	Ronan O'Gara	Ireland (128) British and Irish Lions (2)	2000–2013	Fly-half
4	124	Richie McCaw	New Zealand	2001–	Flanker
5	119	Jason Leonard	England (114) British and Irish Lions (5)	1990–2004	Prop
6	118	Fabien Pelous	France	1995–2007	Lock
7	116	Nathan Sharpe	Australia	2002–2012	Lock
8	111	Philippe Sella	France	1982–1995	Centre
=	111	John Smit	South Africa	2000–2011	Hooker[11]
=	111	George Smith	Australia	2000–2013	Flanker
11	110	Gethin Jenkins	Wales (105) British and Irish Lions (5)	2002–	Prop
=	110	Stephen Jones	Wales (104) British and Irish Lions (6)	1998–2011	Fly-half
=	110	Victor Matfield	South Africa	2001–2011	Lock
=	110	Keven Mealamu	New Zealand	2002–	Hooker
=	109	Chris Paterson	Scotland	1999–2011	Utility back
16	107	John Hayes	Ireland (105) British and Irish Lions (2)	2000–2011	Prop
=	107	Tony Woodcock	New Zealand	2002–	Prop
18	105	Martin Castrogiovanni	Italy	2002–	Prop
=	105	Sergio Parisse	Italy	2002–	Number 8
20	104	Marco Bortolami	Italy	2001–	Lock
=	104	Martyn Williams	Wales (100) British and Irish Lions (4)	1996–2012	Flanker
22	103	Andrea Lo Cicero Vaina	Italy	2000–2013	Prop
=	103	Gareth Thomas	Wales (100) British and Irish Lions (3)	1995–2007	Utility back
24	102	Stephen Larkham	Australia	1996–2007	Fly-half
=	102	Percy Montgomery	South Africa	1997–2008	Fullback
26	101	David Campese	Australia	1982–1996	Wing
=	101	Alessandro Troncon	Italy	1994–2007	Scrum-half
28	100	Dan Carter	New Zealand	2003–	Fly-half
=	100	Mils Muliaina	New Zealand	2003–2011	Fullback

Stand outs for me:

1. Ronan O'Gara, like him or hate him, must have an incredible engine to have that sort of longevity.
2. McCaw and O'Driscoll are very difficult to separate as inspirational players in the modern era.
3. Stephen Jones has never, ever received the credit that he deserves from a lot of Wales fans and I don't understand that.
4. How many more tests we play in the modern era has to be taken into account. Mike Gibson also played for Ireland for 15 years (1964-1979) but only had 69 Irish caps. And they sure as sh!t weren't capping anyone else in his place.

I agree about Stephen Jones, very good player who I believe still hasn't been replaced in the Welsh team.

Looking at the caps, McCaw will take the record soon enough.

George North at 21 is closing in on 50 caps already!

profitius wrote:Looking at the caps, McCaw will take the record soon enough.

George North at 21 is closing in on 50 caps already!

Very true, but a player of Norths size I fear injuries will catch up with him at some point, it always does!
Maybe if he had stayed in Wales and was managed carefully he could get more caps but Saints will run him into the ground.

Taylorman wrote:yes but imagine the pressure on the incumbant that has little time to become Irelands 13 at the main event...can hear the bring back BOD chants already...

No I think he's already gone beyond physically what his body can take. Mentally he's as hungry as ever but in every game he had to scrape himself off the deck at some stage - enough is enough now. Maybe he can pick up another Rabo medal with Leinster... (Ulster for the heino )

People can talk about stats and caps but Drico and McCaw stand apart in the pro era as iron men, guys who went way beyond health and reason again and again with no regard for their wellbeing - one leg, one arm didn't matter to these guys . They are on a different plateau in my opinion.

fa0019 wrote:Paterson never made it onto a lions tour. I don't think any of us had any complaints either. He was a jobber, the best at the time and skilled at the inside the 10m line kick but he wasn't a top player.

Re: Lions tours I think he was slightly unlucky not to make the 2005 tour to NZ. Josh Lewsey was always going to be first choice at fullback but I do think, and did feel at the time, that Paterson should have toured ahead of Balshaw. At that point Balshaw was not in good form.

I don't think Paterson is an all time great. He was messed about by various Scotland coaches and played too much rugby on the wing, where he was pretty average. He should have been left at fly half throughout his career, but he was a very good fullback.

On his kicking, he was a superb goal kicker. His appreciation of his kicking range was a strength and not a flaw. Better to know your limits and be close to 100% accurate, than take and miss speculative pot shots. His accuracy from the touchline on the edge of the 22 was superb.

He was a very good player, but I'd concede that he wasn't "world class" - largely down to his being shifted from 10, to 15 to 11. As a result he wouldn't make my Scotland XV from my lifetime. Not as good at 15 as Gavin Hastings, not as good on the wing as Thom Evans, Sean Lamont, Tim Visser, Sean Maitland or Tony Stanger and not as good at 10 as Gregor Townsend or Craig Chalmers.

Think that in the modern era, Will Greenwood might be an interesting point of comparison with BOD. O'Driscoll's longevity should always give him an edge - you can't wish away a cap differential of 141 and 56, or whatever it was - but for a period of about five years, I think it's fair to say that the Englishman stands easy comparison with BOD in the NH centres stakes. Both were excellent defenders; like O'Driscoll, Greenwood was also both a superb finisher (31 tries in 55 England games is one hell of a strike-rate) and created countless opportunities for his back three. He didn't quite have the whole box of tricks that was BOD's enviable gift, but I'm one of many who perhaps underrates just how important Greenwood was to the best NH team of the professional era.

Greenwood was a fantastic player - mentally he's a great comparison because he could see things other players couldn't. Physically he wasn't the greatest athlete though - not the quickest or most powerful but just a brilliant footballer.

I'd love to have seen him and drico together in the centre.

Greenwood had such a great rugby brain. Jack Rowell couldn't see spot talent if it hit him in the head.

In 2001 had he not got injured pre tests I think the partnership he would have formed with BOD would have been talked about in the same light as Gibbs-Guscott.

Greenwood, despite wearing 13, played inside centre. I don't think it's an easy comparison as they played in different positions. I can think of plenty better players at inside centre to BOD - BOD nearly always played outside centre.

Agree though re: 2001. Although Rob Henderson did a very good job at 12, a Greenwood/BOD combination would have been something pretty special, particularly with players like Jason Robinson and Josh Lewsey in the outside backs.

There's no player in the pro era with the range of skills BOD mastered. In his pomp in the mid 00's he had it all. In terms of inspirational leadership he could be mentioned with the best like Smit and McCaw. Like McCaw, Wilkinson he was among the toughest barstewards to ever play.

Running, try scoring, passing, playmaking, tackling, reading of the game, winning turnovers at the breakdown, winning intercepts; he compares well to the pro era's masters of all those skills. But he had them all. He even scored drop goals when needed and prop-like drives at the try line from a meter out. And just for fun he could come out with things you've never seen like the pass to himself and the audacious kick-chase-volley-chase-try against Wasps. He could literally score tries all on his own, set up others, or finish from the tightest of spots. That Aussie defence in '01 was one of the meanest of the pro era. He made them look foolish.

Then there was the evolution of his game as the pace left him. That's something other former pro's seem to admire hugely. He changed how he played and led Ireland to a Grand Slam with match turning tries against England, France and Wales and a match saving tackle against Scotland. Take him out and we could have lost four games. But we won a Slam. The difference between Ireland's win ration with BOD and our win ration without him is quite big. And was gapingly huge when he was at his peak.

When you talk about players as good as McCaw, Johnson and Carter how can you say one is better than the other? You can't really. Personally I'd say McCaw. But O'Driscoll definitely should be mentioned alongside them as one of the true greats. In fact he already is. And anyone who doesn't think so is fully entitled to their opinion, but are quite frankly mad in the head.

Based on this feckless, do you think ireland will progress now - under schmidt - or get worse - losing bod.

O'Driscoll showed his skills against a poor Italy team and was the catalyst for our large points haul. But against the top teams, at 35 years old, he wasn't a match winner anymore. He didn't try to be actually. He just did a solid job. '09 was his last really great season in green. We've only seen flashes since then. Other players, like Sexton for example, are far more important cogs now.

Did Ireland get worse when Keith Wood retired? No, they actually got better as standards across the board raised. So fingers crossed we deal with the loss of a talisman the same way again. I'd have no problem with Henshaw, Bowe, Payne or Fitzgerald at 13. Replacing D'arcy might actually be more problematic. A lot of work to be done in the centre for sure.

Progress, for sure.

rodders wrote:

Taylorman wrote:yes but imagine the pressure on the incumbant that has little time to become Irelands 13 at the main event...can hear the bring back BOD chants already...

No I think he's already gone beyond physically what his body can take. Mentally he's as hungry as ever but in every game he had to scrape himself off the deck at some stage - enough is enough now. Maybe he can pick up another Rabo medal with Leinster... (Ulster for the heino )

People can talk about stats and caps but Drico and McCaw stand apart in the pro era as iron men, guys who went way beyond health and reason again and again with no regard for their wellbeing - one leg, one arm didn't matter to these guys . They are on a different plateau in my opinion.

True Rodders and talk about pressure on the incumbant could he even be...<gulp>...a kiwi...?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/9843650/Kiwi-Payne-being-tipped-to-fill-O-Driscolls-boots


  .....  ....  .....  ......the pressure....!

It doesn't sit too well with me but even if it is Payne at 29 (when eligible) he will surely only ever be a caretaker for the position until someone like Hendshaw makes the grade.

Payne is an Ulsterman is he not.....   

Yeah its a no brainer for me - Payne is pure quality in attack and will add something extra to this Irish backline - if Henshaw or Cave who have also been tipped to play want to start then they need to be better than Jared. BOD has been working with the these guys in private for the past 9 months according to Schmidt.

Although I don't support deliberately poaching other countries talent, I don't have a problem with naturalized players representing Ireland if they are passionate and committed. Payne fits the bill for me in that regard.