Ireland squad for tour of Argentina - who will play 13?

First off I'd like to point out, I'm a bit disappointed thats its Argentina we are touring.  I hope they give us some really good games but I sort of feel we will win the tour and it will have proved nothing.  Where as if we had gone to say South Africa or Australia on the back of being 6N champs we may still be underdogs but would have a chance of a great tour victory against one of the big 3.

On to the squad - I'm not going to write out 40 odd names, simply because I think we are basically looking at bringing our squad from the 6N we've just won, with the one change being an outside centre to replace BOD and the returning players like Bowe and O'Brien.

So who will that be??

Payne isn't qualified yet.  What are the other options?

From within the current squad we have Earls, Henshaw and Fitzgerald as the possibilities for playing 13.  From outside the squad I don't see anyone, Schmidt doesn't rate Cave and at 26 we are probably heading into the territory of Cave never really making international level rugby.

Really I think this is going to come down to the former 3 names, Earls, Henshaw and Fitzgerald for the 13 shirt against Argentina in the June tour.  Bowe may be an outside bet...

Who would you go with at this stage?

I think it is too late for Earls, McFadden and Cave while Fitz just cannot be relied upon to stay fit, and that's understating it.
I imagine Payne will slot in once he qualifies but I'd like to see Henshaw start in Argentina alongside Marshall, although the latter's series of concussions is increasingly worrying.

I think Bowe would work really well at 13, but again that ship has most likely sailed. There is also Olding to consider if he can recover in time.

Core of the team would be as follows:

1. McGrath
2. Cronin
3. Moore
4. Henderson/Ryan
5. Toner/Tuohy
6. Henderson/Ruddock/Ferris?
7. TOD/SOB?
8. Murphy/Copeland

9. Marmion
10. Tight call between Madigan, PJ and JJ
11. Zebo/Earls/Fitz (unlikely)
12. Marshall/Olding/Madigan??
13. BOD.... wait what? Henshaw it is then
14. Bowe/Gilroy
15. Zebo?????

Edit: Considering the depth at 10 is it worth considering Madigan as a 12? Great goalkicker and takes the pressure of Sexton

From the sounds of things BOD's been working with Henshaw and Cave behind the scenes at Schmidt's behest so you'd imagine they are front runners, until the Autumn when Payne qualifies at least.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Marshall at 13 outside D'arcy either.

Aw, I'd love to see this team

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Toner
5. Henderson
6. Ferris
7. O'Mahony
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Jackson
11. Trimble
12. D'Arcy
13. Henshaw
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Cronin 17. McGrath 18. Moore 19. O'Connell/Tuohy 20. Henry 21. Reddan 22. Sexton/Madigan 23. McFadden/Zebo

This is the perfect opportunity to look at rotating a wee bit- getting some young blood into the team and growing depth! Getting options blooded at lock, outhalf and centre. Plus getting some guys who have been injured for a while re-integrated into the group. We only used 18 players as starters so great opportunity to give some guys who have been on the periphery a chance.

Madigan is an option too and aint bad minus some much needed improvments in defence.

Of all the players Earls has always stood out for me with super footwork and a decent kicking game. I'd love it if he got some nurturing under Schmidt and Foley as he has the vision to break defences.

Bowe is another one who could figure but probably only if henshaw and cave dont make the grade, which could happen. At outside centre its the most exposed position in the team and the pressure at international level is a big cut above HC level....

Gonna be very strange without BOD.

Mentioned Bowe and O'Brien coming back, should we also expect Ferris to be going on this tour?

You've got Payne, Marshall, Cave and maybe trimble? So plenty of choice

Hope so, but O'Brien definitely won't be back.

You're lucky...

Murray, Sexton, Bowe, Marshall, Payne, Zebo, Kearney   

Really whats the time scale on O'Brien coming back?

Notch wrote:Aw, I'd love to see this team

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Toner
5. Henderson
6. Ferris
7. O'Mahony
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Jackson
11. Trimble
12. D'Arcy
13. Henshaw
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Cronin 17. McGrath 18. Moore 19. O'Connell/Tuohy 20. Henry 21. Reddan 22. Sexton/Madigan 23. McFadden/Zebo

This is the perfect opportunity to look at rotating a wee bit- getting some young blood into the team and growing depth! Getting options blooded at lock, outhalf and centre. Plus getting some guys who have been injured for a while re-integrated into the group. We only used 18 players as starters so great opportunity to give some guys who have been on the periphery a chance.

That's a very strong team Notch but I'd be a bit more adventurous than that, besides the 6N group will have had an absolutely gruelling season with the Heineken and the Rabo finals still to come.

At prop we're fairly secure, not sure if Moore will overtake Ross or not by RWC but we'll see. Cronin needs gametime to back-up Best, he'll probably be first choice after the WC.
Henderson needs to develop as a lock, unless Schmidt settles on him being a 6.
We have plenty of options in the back row, only issue is maybe developing Murphy to the point where he really pushes Heaslip. I don't think there would be too many complaints if Ferris could make it, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.. Shame about SOB, hopefully he'll get an injury-free run next season.

We definitely need to develop a foil to Murray, the alternatives can't hang on for much longer and a Murray-Marmion combination could work really well. It really is about time Marmion won a cap anyway.
At 12 I think D'arcy should be given a break, we didn't explore any other options this 6N and it's pretty imperative IMO we consider younger players there.
13 most likely Henshaw unless Schmidt fancies Bowe in the centre or thinks he can work with Earls (which would be exciting if possible).
Fairly well stocked up on wings, K2 and Trimble have done really well but I think one or two will have a point to prove...
We don't really have a back-up 15 at the moment, might be worth considering Zebo or Henshaw.

Argentina is the perfect tour for Ireland this summer. Schmidt needs to build depth in several key positions - not just centre. The Pumas will be a tough test judging by previous tours so cannot be taken lightly but are of a standard that will encourage Schmidt to experiment a bit.

No way should Ferris tour, he needs to show he can get through the rest of the season and then the start of the next with a normal pre-season in between. The AIs will be the showcase to show he's back.

From a non-Ireland fans perspective:   

1.Healy
2.Best
3.Ross
4.Toner
5.O'Connell
6.Ferris - Even as an England fan desperately want him back in international colours, fantastic player.
7.O'Mahony
8.Heaslip

9.Murray
10.Madigan - I'd give both him and Jackson game time

11.Trimble - Real unsung hero from Ireland's strong 6N showing IMO
12.Marshall
13.Henshaw - Really impressed whenever I see him play
14.Bowe
15.Kearney

16.Cronin - Impressed when brought on throughout the tournament
17.McGrath
18.Moore
19.Henderson, Touhy or Ryan - Real strength in depth developing at lock
20.Henry
21.Marmion
22.Jackson
23.Zebo

Impressive strength in depth being developed in a lot of positions it must be said. The back row especially if Ferris can get back to his best and O'Brien still to return alongside the impressive POM and Henry. Will the likely No 8 cover come from one of those moving across if Heaslip were injured?

As everyone knew already the centre is still an unknown for you moving forward but the strength in depth around them will help a whole lot for whoever is entrusted take that opportunity. I'd love to see Marshall and Henshaw given a go as whenever I've seen them play they've looked to have a touch of class to their game.

From a rugby fans perspective I just hope Ireland can shrug of their recent injury curse and the likes of O'Connell, Ferris, O'Brien, Bowe, etc can all get fit and stay that way. All guys who I really enjoy watching in action for province or country.

Couldn't we have organised a game against the USA/Canada again? We could have used a game like that to try new players and tactics and plus it would give the USA another game against a tier 1 nation to prepare for the world cup.

Most of the other nations are playing 3 tests...

Schmidt should leave his senior RWC certainties at home in the summer - Best, Ross, POC, Heaslip, Sexton and R.Kearney. He should take a full pack with a few names for the future to get the experience of touring. The forwards will be tested in the heat so Schmidt will need alternatives:

Healy, McGrath, Cronin
Cronin, Strauss, Herring
Moore, Archer, Furlong
Toner, Ryan, Tuohy
Henderson, SOB, POM, Henry, Copeland

The challenge in the backs is to find a new midfield pairing (first game shirt/second game shirt):
9/9 Murray, 21/21 Reddan, injury cover Marmion
10/10 Jackson,
12/22 Madigan, 13/23 Henshaw, 22/12 Marshall, 0/13 Cave
11/11 Bowe, 14/14 Trimble, 15/0 DKearney, 23/15 Zebo

So basically Henshaw gets the first game and Cave the second.
I'd like to see Madigan start at 12 alongside Henshaw and then bring Marshall on.
Also start Marshall with Cave in the second game and maybe bring Henshaw off the bench.

It looks likely that Hendshaw will play 13 with Cave as sub and then Payne will be introduced to the role in Nov. If you believe Thornley anyway.

Whats the deal with Cave and why is he so under rated, even by Ulster fans? Any time I've seen him he has been excellent in attack. Quick, great reader of the game with excellent hands and always seems to take the right option. Is his defence up to scratch as I haven't seen him miss too many tackles?
Also he is a specialist 13 and has probably started more club games at 13 than anyone including BOD in the last 3-4 years.

He doesnt have the right face for international rugby.

Jokes aside. I have no clue. schmidt has given him things to work on but I dont know what.

Submachine wrote:Whats the deal with Cave and why is he so under rated, even by Ulster fans? Any time I've seen him he has been excellent in attack. Quick, great reader of the game with excellent hands and always seems to take the right option. Is his defence up to scratch as I haven't seen him miss too many tackles?
Also he is a specialist 13 and has probably started more club games at 13 than anyone including BOD in the last 3-4 years.

He is not underrated by Ulster fans !
What we recognise is lacks is half a yard of pace but for the last 5/6 he has been the 2nd best Irish 13 by a country mile.

As things stand he will be the best 13 in Ireland came the end of May.
It is a straight fight between him, Henshaw, Payne, Fitzgerald.
The question marks against the other three are bigger than that against Cave.
He understands the position far better than the alternatives

Oh, he's a very good player for Ulster. We particularly appreciate him this year- he's playing to prove a point. It would be good to see him get a game in Argentina.

Schmidt talks about the tour here- I wouldn't rest too many players from the tour, but I'd consider starting some of our key players and leaders on the bench.

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/joe-schmidt-ireland-rugby-world-cup-1368442-Mar2014/?utm_source=twitter_self

Saw that. He does have a point that there are only 10 games to play but he certainly does need to get serious game time for squad players. At this point I would be tempted not to introduce too many caps until post world cup but instead asseble a strong squad of experienced but not necessarly old players.

This WC will probably be too soon for Marmion and Hanrahan etc.

GunsGerms wrote: .

This WC will probably be too soon for Marmion and Hanrahan etc.

I'd agree with that much as their supporters would like to see different.
Marmion at best will go as 3rd scrum half and JJ will not get a look in unless he starts for Munster as first choice 10 next September

If any new back gets into the 23 it will be Olding or Henshaw not Marmion or Hanrahan

Outside, and very outside shout at a centres spot, not for this tour but come the AIs and next 6Ns is Sheridan, currently at London Irish.

I reckon Henshaw gets the first Argentina game and depending how that goes Cave get's a shout afterwards. Trouble will be once Payne comes in as an option.

Marshall and Cave should have the largest advantage for a pairing. The alternative being a potential Darcy and Fitz/McFadden combination settling in at Munster.

Do you take Darcy on the Argentina trip? He is the elder statesman to train in the so-called young guns. Or do you let him rest and cut over to a new centre pairing? It will be interesting to see how it goes.

Interview by Schmidt on the 13 jersey http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26635990 saying that Cave and Henshaw have 'profited' playing and training with Ireland, and he also had mentions for Fitzgerald and McFadden. When prodded he also acknowledged Payne as another very strong player, but maybe him not mentioning it highlights Schmidt's focus is purely on the Summer tour not Autumn internationals, when he becomes eligible.

geoff998rugby wrote:

GunsGerms wrote: .

This WC will probably be too soon for Marmion and Hanrahan etc.

I'd agree with that much as their supporters would like to see different.
Marmion at best will go as 3rd scrum half and JJ will not get a look in unless he starts for Munster as first choice 10 next September

If any new back gets into the 23 it will be Olding or Henshaw not Marmion or Hanrahan

A lot can change in one season. Hardly anyone outside of Munster had heard of Conor Murray before the last World Cup. Marmion would be my second choice at the moment anyway, I would hope he can take his opportunity when it finally comes. Hanrahan will have to have a big season but I'd say he's still got a shout.

Jordi Murphy and Marty Moore have sneaked into the set-up with very little big game experience so there is hope yet. I fear we over-estimate experience sometimes - look at Wales, they overhauled their squad quite close to the last World Cup and had a very good tournament and set the foundation for two 6N championships.

However I don't expect the starting XV to waver greatly, Ross is marginal favourite to retain his jersey now but there should be a new centre partnership I would think.
Positions of strength ie. back row and wings will be dictated by form.

geoff998rugby wrote:

GunsGerms wrote: .

This WC will probably be too soon for Marmion and Hanrahan etc.

I'd agree with that much as their supporters would like to see different.
Marmion at best will go as 3rd scrum half and JJ will not get a look in unless he starts for Munster as first choice 10 next September

If any new back gets into the 23 it will be Olding or Henshaw not Marmion or Hanrahan

Marmion should go to the RWC as third scrumhalf. He will get invaluable experience of being around the squad, and maybe some gametime off the bench in an easy game. The opportunity to give him that experience should be taken as given the ages of Reddan and Boss, Ireland will be looking for viable backup to Murray sooner rather than later.
There is no point in taking Boss, as he can easily be brought into the squad as a replacement if there is a major injury.

If ARG put out a similar squad to the one they put out against England in the summer last year, which seems likely as they usually rest their big guns to prepare for the RC, then we should be winning these games by 20+.

They simply don't have any depth in their squad and actually had to send out some amateurs and semi pros that play for Pampas XV, last year against England. I remember their hooker being tiny and getting smashed in the scrums (ENG scored 2 penalty tries).

I really hope ARG get some professional franchises soon.