Scotland and the summer tour!

First topic message reminder :

Games:

Saturday 7 June:
United States of America v Scotland
BBVA Compass Stadium, Houston, Texas

Saturday 14 June:
Canada v Scotland
BMO Field, Toronto, Ontario

Saturday 21 June:
Argentina v Scotland
Estadio Mario Alberto Kempes, Córdoba

Saturday 28 June:
South Africa v Scotland
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth

***
Now the 6 nations are over there will be major changes for Scotland between now and the next international.
Vern Cotter will be the head coach for the next test with scott Johnson moving to director of rugby. Unclear yet if Cotter will bring in his own coaching team or whether he will inherit the current crop.

The 6 nations has been a disaster for Scotland but I still believe Scotland has some very good players and a lot of the problems in the 6 nations stem from poor coaching, tactics, very bad selection and man management. Glasgow regularly beat the top Rambo teams, Edinburgh can as well and a lot of the exile players are playing at the very top teams in England and France and winning week in week out but for some reason when they pull on the blue jersey something just isn't there.
This will all change when Cotter arrives. Speaking to Chris Paterson and al kellock a few weeks ago they can't wait for cotter to arrive as they say his coaching style and manner is that of a modern day Jim Telfer and they believe exactly what this squad need.

From a playing point of view there are a few players that should be dropped and not selected for the summer tour. For me they are Ryan Wilson, Tim Swinson, Greig Laidlaw.
Wilson is good at number 8 for Glasgow but is not a 6 at international level. We have 3 far better 6's available yet none were picked. Would Wilson get in the team at 8? For me, nope. Denton, Beattie are far better options and I would say Ali Hogg is also far better than wilson. Why was he picked? Because Johnson thought he was a good "kid". It's not wilson a fault he was picked out of position but there are far better options.
Tim Swinson was very poor compared to his form on last years summer tour. He didn't seem to have the same grunt or energy and was ver ineffective. Again there are other options at lock like Gilchrist who has improved a lot this season and has a harder edge about him now and also johnnycake gray.
Greig Laidlaw was put in the autumn tests and even worse in the 6 nations. His decision making was poor, his service was extremely slow. He offers no break or snipe at all and his main attribute his goal kicking has been poor. Custer looks far sharper, when he has played and deserves a shot. He also has very good leadership qualities. Grayson Hart is also in top form and deserves a chance on recent form. Quick pass, physical and knows the way to the line.

The Backrow was the biggest concern during the 6 nations, it was unbalanced and very off pace. The back row needs balance and a good back row will have 3 players with different qualities, a scavenger who makes a nuisance of himself and tackles his heart out. A hard worker who will do the unseen stuff at the breakdown and then a big athletic ball carrier who will run all day making the hard yards. Scotland have these options but went for three players who were all very similar. It didn't work and must be changed.

The summer tour we play Canada, USA, Argentina and South Africa. The first two teams we "should" beat comfortably the other two will be tough and physical. They will probably take a squad of between 32 and 35.
I'd go with 6 props
Ryan grant
Ali Dickinson
Jon welsh but has to move back to loose head where he is far more destructive.
Euan murray
Geoff cross
Moray low not great during 6 nations but would like to see what difference cotter can make.

Squad

North America

LH - Allan, Reid, Traynor
H - Bryce, Lawson, McArthur
TH - Cross, Low
SR - Gilchrist, Gray, Hamilton, Low
6/8 - Beattie, Brown, Strokosh
7 - Cowan

SH - Hart, Laidlaw
SO - Heathcoat, Russell
IC - Taylor
OC -Bennett
W - Evans, Lamont, Maitland, Visser
FB - Hogg

Argentina / SA

LH - Dickinson, Reid
H - Bryce, Ford, McArthur
TH - Cross, Low, Welsh
SR - Gilchrist, Gray, Swinson
6/8 - Denton, Harley,
7 - Fusaro

SH - Hart, Pyrgos
SO - Jackson, Weir
IC - Horne
OC - ?
W - Fife, Maitland, Seymour
FB - Hogg, Murchie

Great post effie. I really don't understand those rankings. Never heard of this TGATONGA nation either - they must be really good to be that high up!   

What they do show though is that there is a clear top 7, and everyone from 8 - 14 (what a fall from grace for Italy) could reasonably expect to beat each other.

I agree with you that an ultimate high level goal should be top 8, as that would mean we have beaten everyone ranked 8 or below, and might have pulled off the odd big result against he top 7. That is a far more sensible goal than winning the world cup.

I'm with you on judging Cotter - if we are top 8 by the time the WC starts we will be in a good position.

It would really be a remarkable achievement if he can manage that.

Wait, where did your post go?   

I'm so confused. I clicked on the email saying a new post was on this thread, replied, then the post disappeared. Found it on an entirely new thread!

https://www.606v2.com/t53227-scotland-what-comprises-success-leading-up-to-wc-2015#2612670

I blame GC for this!

tigertattie wrote:I blame GC for this!

Wassa charge? What did I do now? I'm already single handedly moderating the England-Wales sledging bloodbath in the spring.

George Carlin wrote:

tigertattie wrote:I blame GC for this!

Wassa charge? What did I do now? I'm already single handedly moderating the England-Wales sledging bloodbath in the spring.

well now yer doing the modding for the England vs Wales world cup game too!

I think I need to hear from Ineffable to see if it was anything to do with him

- I got an email saying there was a new post on this thread
- Opened it to find effie's really good post on Scotland leading up to the world cup
- I posted my comment
- It said there was a new comment
- I clicked save
- When I looked on the thread his comment was gone, and I eventually found out that it had become a brand new thread!

lets just blame the nearest soap dodger and move on

tigertattie wrote:lets just blame the nearest soap dodger and move on

Agreed.

Naw I posted it here originally then decided it was better for a new topic entirely so copy/pasted and deleted the one from here.

I thought mods were the only people able to delete posts?

I see that Kelly Brown is starting for Saracans this weekend for the HK semi final - at 6.

Please, please, please take note Scotland coaches - if his club are happy to pick him at 6 for one of their biggest games of the season, we should also play him there!

current backrow should be

Brown (6) played at six, aka blindside, aka not the openside
Denton played at 8 (beattie considered once his injury heals)
Rennie played at 7 coz everyone knows opensides are kinda needed these days

John Barclay would also be in the mix!

tigertattie wrote:current backrow should be

Brown (6) played at six, aka blindside, aka not the openside
Denton played at 8 (beattie considered once his injury heals)
Rennie played at 7 coz everyone knows opensides are kinda needed these days

John Barclay would also be in the mix!

Is Rennie playing better at Bristol than Barclay at Scarlets?

Hard to tell due to the differing levels.  Rennie had been scoring tries for fun at Bristol though (as well as tackling, turning over ball, being a genral nuisence)

I've been thinking about this summer tour recently, and the more I think about it the more I think SJ is going to play a big part in it.

Chances are Clermont are going to be in the Top 14 final so Cotter will literally arrive in Scotland the day we fly out to USA. There's no way in the build up to the first game is he going to try to radically change the way Scotland have been playing under SJ, or the philosophy behind selection being radically different.

Likewise I really can't see much changing throughout the tour - due to all the travelling there's not going to be a massive amount of training done, so there will be a limit on what Cotter can implement.

I really can see Cotter having to rely on SJ's tactics and team selection ideas this summer tour.

Which is terrifying.

I'm not so worried about it to be honest!

Think about it! It is almost like Cotter can rock up, sit back and look at what the team are doing. He can then look at what the boys are doing right or wrong, look at strengths or weaknesses and then come up up with a way forward!

Was more meaning for our performances during the tour!

yar. I'm expecting a loss to Arg and SA but we should still beat the North Americans.  If nothing else, the players should be out to play at their best to impress Cotter!

It's a good point RDW and you've just made me not want to switch on the telly in June. Cheers   

Imagining that at some point tonight Vern will wish he'd left Clermont last season...

Brown has a storming game at 6

Feel sorry for Vern but his side were well and truly duffed up the bum this evening.

So after the 1872 cap where are we on a squad? One thing for sure Glasgow have been nuturing young talented players adn in many ways things are looking good. Tough luck on clermont but that means cotter can get to Scotland a bit earlier. so long as he plays the best player in a position in their best positions then he will do better than SJ. If he can also pick a gmeplan and tactics to suit the players we have then we will look a lot better.

Cusitor, Scott, Ickle jonnny hve all really put their hands up to claim a starting spot.

Jonny Gray was outstanding today and has been extremely consistent. He should be starting for Scotland this summer with his brother. If Cotter doesn't pick Brown at 6 he's a moron, but if he does make that mistake then Harley is ready to deputise. He was a royal pain in the nuts today and with Jonny Gray gets through a power of work.

The French top 14 final is the weekend Scotland depart so there's still a chance he'll be involved up to then.

Surely he can still ring SJ and insist that his stupid selections stop. Ryan Wilson at 6 and Kelly Brown at 7, that just isn't funny. Completely incompetent.

The 1872 showed some real talent in Scottish rugby. It's time for Jon Welsh to get a crack at tighthead, Gray and Gray should start in the second row and Bob Harley should play a game in North America at least. Cusiter is very much back, and Scott, Dunbar and Bennett are as good options at centre as we've had for years. Visser should be back and fully fit, and if Hogg still has issues, both Murchie and Cuthbert are playing well. There was some great positive rugby on Saturday.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Surely he can still ring SJ and insist that his stupid selections stop. Ryan Wilson at 6 and Kelly Brown at 7, that just isn't funny. Completely incompetent.

The 1872 showed some real talent in Scottish rugby. It's time for Jon Welsh to get a crack at tighthead, Gray and Gray should start in the second row and Bob Harley should play a game in North America at least. Cusiter is very much back, and Scott, Dunbar and Bennett are as good options at centre as we've had for years. Visser should be back and fully fit, and if Hogg still has issues, both Murchie and Cuthbert are playing well. There was some great positive rugby on Saturday.

  

Have I read that right Mr FES?

Hearing tales that two separate squads might be picked - one for the North American component, one for the south hemisphere part

It is going to be a logistical nightmare this tour, the travel and the unavailability of some players are going to make it a real challenge.

If they send an A team to Argentina, for want of a better expression, then a good proportion of them need to come home directly from there as the international window ends, then surely that team will need to be re-enforced from the original party anyway.

However they do it, it won't be easy. Have they got any special dispensation from the IRB to hang onto the players for an extra week. They did sanction the tour at the end of the day?

Keep up Asbo - that has already been discussed earlier in the thread!   

Ah, victim of the old memory failing me... never mind.

Hearing tales that two separate squads might be picked - one for the North American component, one for the south hemisphere part

That's would make the most sense, but I'd hope they would combine for the Argentina game so we could put out the strongest team possible.

Aye, that would be good

Hearing tales that two separate squads might be picked - one for the North American component, one for the south hemisphere part

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Hearing tales that two separate squads might be picked - one for the North American component, one for the south hemisphere part

you've said that already. 

I think a few folk have heard the same rumour over the last month or so!

tigertattie wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Surely he can still ring SJ and insist that his stupid selections stop. Ryan Wilson at 6 and Kelly Brown at 7, that just isn't funny. Completely incompetent.

The 1872 showed some real talent in Scottish rugby. It's time for Jon Welsh to get a crack at tighthead, Gray and Gray should start in the second row and Bob Harley should play a game in North America at least. Cusiter is very much back, and Scott, Dunbar and Bennett are as good options at centre as we've had for years. Visser should be back and fully fit, and if Hogg still has issues, both Murchie and Cuthbert are playing well. There was some great positive rugby on Saturday.

  

Have I read that right Mr FES?

I can only go so far with my provocation of Mr Carlin and ASBO. Even I can admit that Bennett is better than McLaren, Henderson, Di Rollo and Morrison, to name but a few of the great Scottish centres of the last decade or so. That said, it's mainly Matt Scott making the current options so exciting......

That fES, he's a one you know, cheeky scamp

BTW Hearing tales that two separate squads might be picked - one for the North American component, one for the south hemisphere part

Guys I think asbo has finally lost it...

It's been coming......

You can only expect so much from a 101 year old.

It's hard enough to remember who the prime minister is, to unzip before you let go at the can and to remember when Alan Titchmarsh is on.

Is it still that Douglas Home twerp?

I see that Charlie Dimmock is back on TV you'll be please to hear Asbo, although the trait that made her famous in the first place is gone as she now appears to have learnt what a bra is!

BTW,

ASBO has been hearing tales that two separate squads might be picked - one for the North American component, one for the south hemisphere part

So out of interest, does anyone think Cotter is likely to split the tour into two parties, one for North American and one for the Southern Hemisphere?

Does anyone have any rumours on the subject?

tigertattie wrote:BTW,

ASBO has been hearing tales that two separate squads might be picked - one for the North American component, one for the south hemisphere part

Did you hear that as well, tattie?

Posted this on another forum, but thought it might be useful here too. If we're looking at a split squad, these two teams are workable

US & CAN

Reid, Ford, Cross
Swinson, Gilchrist
Harley, Wilson (c), Rennie
Pyrgos, Russell
Fife, Horne, Bennett, Seymour
Murchie

Subs – Dickinson, Hall, Welsh, Gray Jnr, Hart, Vernon, Cuthbert

ARG & SA

Grant, Hall, Welsh
Gray, Gray
Brown (c), Denton, Barclay
Cusiter, Russell,
Maitland, Scott, Dunbar, Visser,
Hogg

Bench – Dickinson, MacArthur, Murray, Hamilton, Laidlaw, Weir, Bennett

A fair bit of crossover, with guys like Jackson, Heathcote etc still to come in.

You Have Russell at 10 for all games!

That wont work as aparently, ASBO has heard a rumour that two separate squads might be picked - one for the North American component, one for the south hemisphere part

tigertattie wrote:You Have Russell at 10 for all games!

That wont work as aparently, ASBO has heard a rumour that two separate squads might be picked - one for the North American component, one for the south hemisphere part

I'm unashamedly a Russell devotee. I think he'll be our RWC flyhalf, and he should get as many caps as possible before then.