Scotland and the summer tour!

First topic message reminder :

Games:

Saturday 7 June:
United States of America v Scotland
BBVA Compass Stadium, Houston, Texas

Saturday 14 June:
Canada v Scotland
BMO Field, Toronto, Ontario

Saturday 21 June:
Argentina v Scotland
Estadio Mario Alberto Kempes, Córdoba

Saturday 28 June:
South Africa v Scotland
Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, Port Elizabeth

***
Now the 6 nations are over there will be major changes for Scotland between now and the next international.
Vern Cotter will be the head coach for the next test with scott Johnson moving to director of rugby. Unclear yet if Cotter will bring in his own coaching team or whether he will inherit the current crop.

The 6 nations has been a disaster for Scotland but I still believe Scotland has some very good players and a lot of the problems in the 6 nations stem from poor coaching, tactics, very bad selection and man management. Glasgow regularly beat the top Rambo teams, Edinburgh can as well and a lot of the exile players are playing at the very top teams in England and France and winning week in week out but for some reason when they pull on the blue jersey something just isn't there.
This will all change when Cotter arrives. Speaking to Chris Paterson and al kellock a few weeks ago they can't wait for cotter to arrive as they say his coaching style and manner is that of a modern day Jim Telfer and they believe exactly what this squad need.

From a playing point of view there are a few players that should be dropped and not selected for the summer tour. For me they are Ryan Wilson, Tim Swinson, Greig Laidlaw.
Wilson is good at number 8 for Glasgow but is not a 6 at international level. We have 3 far better 6's available yet none were picked. Would Wilson get in the team at 8? For me, nope. Denton, Beattie are far better options and I would say Ali Hogg is also far better than wilson. Why was he picked? Because Johnson thought he was a good "kid". It's not wilson a fault he was picked out of position but there are far better options.
Tim Swinson was very poor compared to his form on last years summer tour. He didn't seem to have the same grunt or energy and was ver ineffective. Again there are other options at lock like Gilchrist who has improved a lot this season and has a harder edge about him now and also johnnycake gray.
Greig Laidlaw was put in the autumn tests and even worse in the 6 nations. His decision making was poor, his service was extremely slow. He offers no break or snipe at all and his main attribute his goal kicking has been poor. Custer looks far sharper, when he has played and deserves a shot. He also has very good leadership qualities. Grayson Hart is also in top form and deserves a chance on recent form. Quick pass, physical and knows the way to the line.

The Backrow was the biggest concern during the 6 nations, it was unbalanced and very off pace. The back row needs balance and a good back row will have 3 players with different qualities, a scavenger who makes a nuisance of himself and tackles his heart out. A hard worker who will do the unseen stuff at the breakdown and then a big athletic ball carrier who will run all day making the hard yards. Scotland have these options but went for three players who were all very similar. It didn't work and must be changed.

The summer tour we play Canada, USA, Argentina and South Africa. The first two teams we "should" beat comfortably the other two will be tough and physical. They will probably take a squad of between 32 and 35.
I'd go with 6 props
Ryan grant
Ali Dickinson
Jon welsh but has to move back to loose head where he is far more destructive.
Euan murray
Geoff cross
Moray low not great during 6 nations but would like to see what difference cotter can make.

Squad

North America

LH - Allan, Reid, Traynor
H - Bryce, Lawson, McArthur
TH - Cross, Low
SR - Gilchrist, Gray, Hamilton, Low
6/8 - Beattie, Brown, Strokosh
7 - Cowan

SH - Hart, Laidlaw
SO - Heathcoat, Russell
IC - Taylor
OC -Bennett
W - Evans, Lamont, Maitland, Visser
FB - Hogg

Argentina / SA

LH - Dickinson, Reid
H - Bryce, Ford, McArthur
TH - Cross, Low, Welsh
SR - Gilchrist, Gray, Swinson
6/8 - Denton, Harley,
7 - Fusaro

SH - Hart, Pyrgos
SO - Jackson, Weir
IC - Horne
OC - ?
W - Fife, Maitland, Seymour
FB - Hogg, Murchie

I was joking before, but now you've said that, you're gonna feel the wrath of FES!

Tattie - the one thing you can be sure of with these fans who just jump on the next bandwagon is that by Christmas we'll be talking about another fly half. Greg Tonks probably.

Jackson was the hero of the hour after a half decent game in the HC against Bath, then Weir was going to eclipse Dan Carter following Scotland A beating the Saxons, and now we have Finn Russell, who after one strong performance at 10 against an understrength Ulster is now apparently the chosen one for the World Cup and should play every game for Scotland between now and then.

They fall for it every time, and if, like a broken clock they are right twice in a day, you'll never hear the end of it.....

I sense Glasgow will get a SQ 10 in over the summer.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Tattie - the one thing you can be sure of with these fans who just jump on the next bandwagon is that by Christmas we'll be talking about another fly half. Greg Tonks probably.

Jackson was the hero of the hour after a half decent game in the HC against Bath, then Weir was going to eclipse Dan Carter following Scotland A beating the Saxons, and now we have Finn Russell, who after one strong performance at 10 against an understrength Ulster is now apparently the chosen one for the World Cup and should play every game for Scotland between now and then.

They fall for it every time, and if, like a broken clock they are right twice in a day, you'll never hear the end of it.....

I'm really disappointed by this response, FES. You don't know me, you don't know my posting history, so you don't know whether I was a champion for any of the players you mentioned. Apparently I'm just a 'they'. Well, cheers. I look forward to reading your thoughts on who should be our 10 on the summer tour so I can be rude and dismissive to you in return.

I like Russell, and think he's a very balanced player. I'd like to see more of him, because I genuinely think he could be our 10 long term. This summer is a good time to start him on that path.

C_S - my apologies for the "Yes Campaign" style of my response. It wasn't really aimed at you, more my good friends GC and ASBO with whom I've been "debating" these points for about a 1/3 of my life (or 1/100 of ASBOs).

As it happens, I do think Finn Russell will play a role in the summer and I suspect we'll see him play in North America. I hope it's at 10 and not at 12, I don't see his future being at inside centre. He has good pace without being lightening quick, his distribution skills already look better than Weir's, he doesn't "Dan Parks" his way out of tackles and he's brave with ball in hand - meaning he's happy to play flat and risk getting clattered to play at greater tempo.

Still, it's very early days in the young man's career, and if Toonie keeps rotating it'll be difficult to properly assess Russell this season. He needs a proper run of games at 10 for Glasgow, hopefully in the bigger end of season games as well.

funnyExiledScot wrote:C_S - my apologies for the "Yes Campaign" style of my response. It wasn't really aimed at you, more my good friends GC and ASBO with whom I've been "debating" these points for about a 1/3 of my life (or 1/100 of ASBOs).

As it happens, I do think Finn Russell will play a role in the summer and I suspect we'll see him play in North America. I hope it's at 10 and not at 12, I don't see his future being at inside centre. He has good pace without being lightening quick, his distribution skills already look better than Weir's, he doesn't "Dan Parks" his way out of tackles and he's brave with ball in hand - meaning he's happy to play flat and risk getting clattered to play at greater tempo.

Still, it's very early days in the young man's career, and if Toonie keeps rotating it'll be difficult to properly assess Russell this season. He needs a proper run of games at 10 for Glasgow, hopefully in the bigger end of season games as well.

No worries, FES, I probably over-reacted anyway.

funnyExiledScot wrote:C_S - my apologies for the "Yes Campaign" style of my response. It wasn't really aimed at you, more my good friends GC and ASBO with whom I've been "debating" these points for about a 1/3 of my life (or 1/100 of ASBOs).

As it happens, I do think Finn Russell will play a role in the summer and I suspect we'll see him play in North America. I hope it's at 10 and not at 12, I don't see his future being at inside centre. He has good pace without being lightening quick, his distribution skills already look better than Weir's, he doesn't "Dan Parks" his way out of tackles and he's brave with ball in hand - meaning he's happy to play flat and risk getting clattered to play at greater tempo.

Still, it's very early days in the young man's career, and if Toonie keeps rotating it'll be difficult to properly assess Russell this season. He needs a proper run of games at 10 for Glasgow, hopefully in the bigger end of season games as well.

Looks like it's my turn to take umbrage then.

I would be grateful (read: amazed) if you could point to any posts of mine where I say that:

Jackson was the hero of the hour after a half decent game in the HC against Bath,

Weir was going to eclipse Dan Carter following Scotland A beating the Saxons,

or

 Finn Russell... is now apparently the chosen one for the World Cup and should play every game for Scotland between now and then.

Inconvenient through it often is, I don't think that there are many posters here to whom hyperbole like that can accurately be attributed. Each of the above 10s had good patches and bad patches over the past 2 years and to profess a preference for one or the other given their form at the time is a fairly normal thing to do. I would also reiterate Capn Sensible's query to you about whom you believe should play 10 for the summer tour and the run-in to the World Cup. Let's have it. Surely you don't want Tonks? Or maybe you do?

On Nov 17th 2013 GC said "Finn Russell is the chosen one for the World Cup and should play every game for Scotland between now and then."

On June 3rd 2013 GC said "Weir is going to eclipse Dan Carter"

On Feb 10th 2012 GC said "Jackson will be the best 10 in rugby since thon wee welsh fella that everyone liked"

Took some research but I found the quotes!!!

tigertattie wrote:On Nov 17th 2013 GC said "Finn Russell is the chosen one for the World Cup and should play every game for Scotland between now and then."

On June 3rd 2013 GC said "Weir is going to eclipse Dan Carter"

On Feb 10th 2012 GC said "Jackson will be the best 10 in rugby since thon wee welsh fella that everyone liked"

Took some research but I found the quotes!!!

Tattie, you Judas.  

I'm unlikely to suggest Tonks: (a) he's injured, (b) he's played even less professional rugby than Finn Russell at 10 and (c), most importantly, he isn't from Ayr and as such doesn't have that unquantifiable "X Factor".

I would take Jackson, Weir and Russell in the summer and give them all a game. Jackson can't face South Africa so the better performer between Weir and Russell in the earlier fixture gets to play twice, with the other on the bench.

Unless Tonks really bursts onto the scene next season as a fly half (and the 6 Nations is really the earliest he'll be ready for international rugby even with a fair wind), Horne moves to 10 and keeps both Weir and Russell out, or Heathcote breaks into the Bath XV, then those three are our only realistic options for the World Cup. It makes sense to involve them all over the summer and the AIs with a view to making a decision before the 6 Nations as to which two will make the matchday 23. That eminently sensible approach allows for fluctuations of form between now and then, and also keeps the competition between those players lively until the last possible time to settle the XV. We need to be using the 6 Nations to allow for continuity and combinations to settle. We can't waste another 6 Nations like the last one.

There you go.....and you definitely said all those things I listed above....definitely....

Come, come FES. Surely you can't hate all people from Ayr:

Who is that??

Kirsty Hume. Your friendly local supermodel (born in Ayr).

I am very fond of Amy McDonald (lovely accent, lovely girl) but is she Paisley as opposed to Ayrshire form memory?

Amy is from Bishopbriggs, which clearly isn't Ayrshire, but she's still from the correct coast.

Whatever she is, she's lovely!

Glen Michael was/is (is he still alive) from Ayr. Not suggesting he is a patch on Amy McDonald

OMG

Cartoon Cavalcade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!              





Ok

I've calmed down now!

George Carlin wrote:Come, come FES. Surely you can't hate all people from Ayr:

She's gorgeous, but I've no doubt the lovely folk of Ayr would still find a way to overrate her.......

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Come, come FES. Surely you can't hate all people from Ayr:

She's gorgeous, but I've no doubt the lovely folk of Ayr would still find a way to overrate her.......

Apparently, according to GC, she has a howitzer of a boot on her and her distribution skills could mean she is our answer to the problem 10 position!

Nevermind, fES me old chum, offending folks left right and centre today!!

Bennett is still the

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Nevermind, fES me old chum, offending folks left right and centre today!!

Bennett is still the

Pot! Kettle!

I'm starting to see why so many of our threads get to 1000 posts....

rennies signed for Bristol.

must like robbo !

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Come, come FES. Surely you can't hate all people from Ayr:

She's gorgeous, but I've no doubt the lovely folk of Ayr would still find a way to overrate her.......

  

Been really impressed with Russell, looks confident and always willing to have a go himself. His composure is pretty good too considering his age, knows when to put it on the boot and looks like a decent kicker.

If he leads Glasgow through to the end of the season, surely he'll be first choice ahead of Weir?

I think Jnr Gray could really transform our pack, again, he plays with maturity and really throws his weight around.  Paired with his Brother, we could have a seriously impressive boiler-room

Personally, I'd like to see both Welsh and Harley get a chance this summer.  Both from the Glasgow school of grit and having strong seasons.

Wasn't sold on Welsh at TH originally but with Cusacks injuries, Murray's age and Low worrying regression, I've come round to it.  May not be the biggest but he's strong and seems to have good technique, doesn't always muller opposition scrums but rarely creaks under pressure.  Plus, age is on his side in terms of playing prime.

Always been a fan of Harley, not the greatest carrier but such a nuisance in defence and great engine for a big guy.  Probably won't create much with ball in hand but he'll always distrupt the opposition and that can create chances too.

Grant (c)
MacArthur
Welsh
Gray
Gray
Harley
Rennie
Beattie
Cusiter
Russell
Visser
Scott
Bennett
Maitland
Hogg

Ford, Dickinson, Murray, Swinson, Denton, Laidlaw, Dunbar, Seymour

Bring on the Boks!!

reallybored wrote:Been really impressed with Russell, looks confident and always willing to have a go himself. His composure is pretty good too considering his age, knows when to put it on the boot and looks like a decent kicker.

If he leads Glasgow through to the end of the season, surely he'll be first choice ahead of Weir?

I think Jnr Gray could really transform our pack, again, he plays with maturity and really throws his weight around.  Paired with his Brother, we could have a seriously impressive boiler-room

Personally, I'd like to see both Welsh and Harley get a chance this summer.  Both from the Glasgow school of grit and having strong seasons.

Wasn't sold on Welsh at TH originally but with Cusacks injuries, Murray's age and Low worrying regression, I've come round to it.  May not be the biggest but he's strong and seems to have good technique, doesn't always muller opposition scrums but rarely creaks under pressure.  Plus, age is on his side in terms of playing prime.

Always been a fan of Harley, not the greatest carrier but such a nuisance in defence and great engine for a big guy.  Probably won't create much with ball in hand but he'll always distrupt the opposition and that can create chances too.

Grant (c)
MacArthur
Welsh
Gray
Gray
Harley
Rennie
Beattie
Cusiter
Russell
Visser
Scott
Bennett
Maitland
Hogg

Ford, Dickinson, Murray, Swinson, Denton, Laidlaw, Dunbar, Seymour

Bring on the Boks!!

I'd mostly agree with that team. A couple tight calls. I'd go Seymour over visser just now. Seymour is on fire. Can see what you mean about Harley but very close between him and brown at six.

That's another thing about this tour - is SJ going to have to pick and name the squad? I am assuming it will be announced a week or two beforehand, and Cotter will (likely) be preparing for the Top 14 final so can't really get involved.

RDW_Scotland wrote:That's another thing about this tour - is SJ going to have to pick and name the squad? I am assuming it will be announced a week or two beforehand, and Cotter will (likely) be preparing for the Top 14 final so can't really get involved.

I suspect that'll be the case. More daft selection decisions and silly press conferences await us, along with dreadful performances and poor results.

I'm hearing rumblings that we may send two separate squads on the summer tour - one to the NH to play the USA and Canada, and one to the SH to play Argentina and South Africa

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I'm hearing rumblings that we may send two separate squads on the summer tour - one to the NH to play the USA and Canada, and one to the SH to play Argentina and South Africa

I did not know this! How insightful. Thank you for letting us know.

 

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I'm hearing rumblings that we may send two separate squads on the summer tour - one to the NH to play the USA and Canada, and one to the SH to play Argentina and South Africa

Its mentioned in the Scotsman during an interview with Visser. Seems that some players will be involved in both squads, with the Exiles and soon to be Exiles not available for South Africa, you would think a number of them will be available for the first three games.

If Glasgow reach the Rabo Final, its the week before the USA game, so hardly ideal preparation.

Could be a record amount of players to be capped on one Summer tour. Could be upwards of 35 getting on the pitch at some point over the 4 games.

Would the unavailability of English based players for part of the tour extend down the leagues below the Aviva or might Rennie, McCall and now Grove from championship clubs be selection options?

It's a fair point, but I suspect the rules will still apply.

Also worth noting it is technically in next season, so Rennie (if promoted) and McCall (moving to Gloucester I think) will definitely be unavailable anyway.

With Clermont relegated is Vern Cotter now officially Scotland coach? It would be good to see him get some preparation in before we leave for the USA.

Not quite relegated....just not in the playoffs!

But yes he'll be here after Clermont's last game, have they had that now?

Sorry don't know where relegated came from. obviously still too early for me. But yes yesterday was there last game.  Hopefully he will be at Scotstown on Friday to watch the warriors book their place in the final.

That would be good PR for him.

Welcome to the forum by the way!

Reports in the papers today say that Matt Scott dislocated his shoulder in the game v Leinster on Saturday night. Looks like a summer at home for him then and a late start to next season. Hopefully will be back up to speed for the autumn internationals.

Could be a chance for Horne to up his international credentials at 12 though, or for Dunbar to move back inside and bring Bennett into the team at 13. No great issue with either option, a similar dilemma to the one Toonie is going to have for this Friday night!

BigGee wrote:Reports in the papers today say that Matt Scott dislocated his shoulder in the game v Leinster on Saturday night. Looks like a summer at home for him then and a late start to next season. Hopefully will be back up to speed for the autumn internationals.

Could be a chance for Horne to up his international credentials at 12 though, or for Dunbar to move back inside and bring Bennett into the team at 13. No great issue with either option, a similar dilemma to the one Toonie is going to have for this Friday night!

Yeah i did see a picture on twitter with Scott and some of the team after the game and he does have his arm in a sling.
Shame he will be out the summer tour but gives a chance to see what horne and bennett can do.

Majestic83 wrote:

BigGee wrote:Reports in the papers today say that Matt Scott dislocated his shoulder in the game v Leinster on Saturday night. Looks like a summer at home for him then and a late start to next season. Hopefully will be back up to speed for the autumn internationals.

Could be a chance for Horne to up his international credentials at 12 though, or for Dunbar to move back inside and bring Bennett into the team at 13. No great issue with either option, a similar dilemma to the one Toonie is going to have for this Friday night!

Yeah i did see a picture on twitter with Scott and some of the team after the game and he does have his arm in a sling.
Shame he will be out the summer tour but gives a chance to see what horne and bennett can do.

Brain melting to me that we are now at a stage in the centre where we can casually shrug about losing Matt Scott for 3 months.

Not that Matt is going to be doing too much shrugging himself.

In isolation this isn't majorly worrying, especially given our emerging stock in the centre.

What is worrying is how little gametime Matt Scott has had this season due to injury - I do hope his promising career isn't going to be blighted by injury a la Simon Taylor.

I'd go for a Dunbar-Bennet partnership, but think Cotter should choose whoever Tonnie picks for the Semi final and (hopefully) final.

He does seem to have run up a fair few injuries this year. None of them seem related though and I suppose it is very much the nature of modern professional rugby.

Looking on the positive side I suppose the end of the season is about as good a time as any to have an injury like that. In the longer term a summer off may not do him any harm.

Just locking onto the backrow points made in the OP, and how it was unbalanced during the 6 Nations. What does Wilson bring? I was a little confused watching him after hearing so much about his club performances. I genuinely think Scotland have a lot of backrow talent but he seemed a little out of place to me. Between Denton, Rennie, Barclay, Brown, and Beattie, Scotland have some excellent combination possibilities!

Throw in Rob Harley, Chris Fusaro and Al Strokosh and you've got even more possibilities!

It does show our strength in depth in the back row when we can put out a first choice of 
6.Brown
7.Rennie
8.Beattie 
and a second choice of 
6.Strokosh
7.Barclay
8.Denton
Hopefully we see something balanced like this unlike the awfully unbalanced options Johnston gave us.

bluestonevedder wrote:Just locking onto the backrow points made in the OP, and how it was unbalanced during the 6 Nations. What does Wilson bring? I was a little confused watching him after hearing so much about his club performances. I genuinely think Scotland have a lot of backrow talent but he seemed a little out of place to me. Between Denton, Rennie, Barclay, Brown, and Beattie, Scotland have some excellent combination possibilities!

Wilson's strengths are his pace, reading of the game and abilities in the loose with ball in hand. He's a hard worker from number 8, meaning that if you have a good grafter at 6 and a breakdown specialist at 7, then you have a very competitive back row. He was also on good form for Glasgow (at 8) at the time of his call-up.

What we know is that Scott Johnson fell out with Kelly Brown, and made a silly statement about only picking him at 7 (rather than his favoured position at 6). Scott Johnson's brilliant solution was to drop Brown entirely after an average performance against Ireland. The whole team was poor that day, Ford and Hamilton in particularly, but they were retained and Brown was dropped.

I don't blame Ryan Wilson one iota for his listless performances at blindside in the 6 Nations. He was out of position and asked to fulfil a role not suited to his capabilities against better players in that position. His confidence dropped.

You are right to say Scotland is well stocked in the back row. Whilst other nations may have a stronger first choice combination, it's one area where we have good players at 3rd choice:

6.Brown, Harley and Strokosch
7.Rennie, Barclay and Fusaro
8.Denton, Beattie and Wilson

We'll also be adding Josh Strauss to the mix next season, and I suspect Cornell Du Preez will follow as another good option in due course. Quite how we ended up with Wilson, Brown and Denton as a combination is horrific incompetence. Scott Johnson is a really bad rugby coach.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Just locking onto the backrow points made in the OP, and how it was unbalanced during the 6 Nations. What does Wilson bring? I was a little confused watching him after hearing so much about his club performances. I genuinely think Scotland have a lot of backrow talent but he seemed a little out of place to me. Between Denton, Rennie, Barclay, Brown, and Beattie, Scotland have some excellent combination possibilities!

Wilson's strengths are his pace, reading of the game and abilities in the loose with ball in hand. He's a hard worker from number 8, meaning that if you have a good grafter at 6 and a breakdown specialist at 7, then you have a very competitive back row. He was also on good form for Glasgow (at 8) at the time of his call-up.

What we know is that Scott Johnson fell out with Kelly Brown, and made a silly statement about only picking him at 7 (rather than his favoured position at 6). Scott Johnson's brilliant solution was to drop Brown entirely after an average performance against Ireland. The whole team was poor that day, Ford and Hamilton in particularly, but they were retained and Brown was dropped.

I don't blame Ryan Wilson one iota for his listless performances at blindside in the 6 Nations. He was out of position and asked to fulfil a role not suited to his capabilities against better players in that position. His confidence dropped.

You are right to say Scotland is well stocked in the back row. Whilst other nations may have a stronger first choice combination, it's one area where we have good players at 3rd choice:

6.Brown, Harley and Strokosch
7.Rennie, Barclay and Fusaro
8.Denton, Beattie and Wilson

We'll also be adding Josh Strauss to the mix next season, and I suspect Cornell Du Preez will follow as another good option in due course. Quite how we ended up with Wilson, Brown and Denton as a combination is horrific incompetence. Scott Johnson is a really bad rugby coach.

Cheers FeS, that was a fulfilling answer!

Have to admit, I totaly forgot about Harley, Fusaro and Strokosch too. Ridiculous depth. Also Roddy Grant was a name I saw thrown around for a while? Wilson looks to be pretty lightweight compared to some of your other options, and Barclay isn't the heaviest, so do you think it would be a sacrifice for one or the other?

I reckon against SA, Scotland could compete well with a backrow of

6. Denton
7. Barclay
8. Beattie

Two potentially contentious issues:

1. Is Rennie up to this? He's done well for Brizzle ... in the RFU Championship. Have his efforts in the past been sufficient to warrant a call-up?
2. Where is Beattie? No sign of him in the Castres XXIII that took ASM's famous home record? Is he injured?

Do we really have any alternatives tho?

Particularly as I heard on the QT that we may take two separate squads, one for the NH part of the tour to play US & Canada, the other to face Arg and SA in the southern hemisphere leg