Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[super_realist]

First topic message reminder :

Rugby players are too fat to catch us Davie.

[MontysMerkin]

No, but given the proportion of income that goes on salary it's a pretty stupid way to run a business.

Why would that be? The market dictates the rates they get paid and the club decides whether to pay it. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

[super_realist]

Yes, whilst it may be sustainable for the very biggest clubs (at least on the face of it, or for clubs who have owners to which the notion of running a club as a business is unimportant), how many clubs have gone insolvent or are massively in debt as a result of the practice?

Outside the top teams in the Premier League, most clubs are running a pretty shabby business model.

[Diggers]

Yes, whilst it may be sustainable for the very biggest clubs (at least on the face of it, or for clubs who have owners to which the notion of running a club as  a business is unimportant), how many clubs have gone insolvent or are massively in debt as a result of the practice?

Outside the top teams in the Premier League, most clubs are running a pretty shabby business model.

And this sets them apart from the majority of businesses how?

[super_realist]

As they are running an unsustainable income/salary ratio and are in many cases heavily in debt, whilst simultaneously reliant on tv money.

[MontysMerkin]

As they are running an unsustainable income/salary ratio and are in many cases heavily in debt, whilst simultaneously reliant on tv money.

Is this the economy you're talking about?

[beninho]

Arsenal have clauses written into contracts that a players salary will reduce based on not reaching the champions league, I think Manchester United have aswell. Clubs also have clauses written in to decrease salary in case of relegation, not all do but some. Some football clubs are badly run, but since professional football came about football clubs have been badly run, its just with larger amounts of money.

And clubs very rarely actually go out of business.

[Diggers]

A huge amount of companies don't make any profit. The income from TV is just that...income. You can't just ignore that it exists, it does and its only going up and football isn't getting any less popular.
You haven't given any kind of practical alternative, so far you've said Moyes should be penalised...he was...you've said players should have some performance, appearance related pay structure...they do.

[super_realist]

What I'm saying Diggers is that if you pay your players on the basis that you'll have a tv income, when relegation could take that away, doesn't seem very sensible to bank on it.

Leeds, Portsmouth, Middlesbrough, Leicester, Derby, Southampton, Forest, all suffered due to this.

Solution? Difficult, and while not having the perfect answer  isn't a good reason to put a club into a financial hole, lower basic salaries with achievement related bonuses would be a good way to help smaller clubs survive better as well as incentivising the players to perform, rather than settle for a high weekly wage they get whether they play well or not.

Or, could a governing body insist a certain amount of revenue is put into development?

A Deloitte Survey recently said English Clubs on average spent 70-80% of their income on salaries. That doesn't leave much for contingency in the event of a bad couple of years.

Was Moyes punished? 4.5m for 10 months work? Not really.

[kwinigolfer]

So long as ownership of Football Clubs is just a trophy for gazillionaires, normal business models get thrown out the window

This should be partially rectified by having the Premier League and FA percolate a greater share of their revenues to lower-league clubs and grass roots football, but pigs'll fly first - things seem to be deteriorating on that front rather than improving.

Hopefully PFC's "Community" ownership can force a more sustainable model - after all, "we"'ve certainly paid the price, at least twice, for the alternative.

[MontysMerkin]

Socialist football. Who'da thought it!

[super_realist]

Part of the problem is, too many football clubs.

[McLaren]

I thought pro choice was a fairly simple concept.

Apparently if you don't fit a certain image you loose the right to choose whether or not to have a child.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2014/apr/23/1

[GunsGerms]

Rooney earns Man Utd a fortune in image rights and shirt sales.

It is a strange world we live in. I would pay not to have to look at his image.

[super_realist]

She seems a fairly shallow and idiotic person, but she should certainly have the choice what she wants to do without such horrible backlash.

[GunsGerms]

She seems a fairly shallow and idiotic person, but she should certainly have the choice what she wants to do without such horrible backlash.

If this woman doesnt want to have a baby then how did she become pregnant? Was it an immaculate conception?

[beninho]

Pro choice for everyone, but if you Publicize your choice to the world, then you are opening yourself up to people with different views. Why does she need to tell the world her decisions? I back up her decision, for whatever reason, but she is clearly a bit stupid.

[McLaren]

Guns

Do you plan to have a child every time you have sex?

[beninho]

My assumption is she did not have sex with the plan to become pregnant. Sometimes these things happen, even if you are being careful.

[GunsGerms]

My assumption is she did not have sex with the plan to become pregnant. Sometimes these things happen, even if you are being careful.

Fairly rarely though. If you are responsible it wont happen.

Did she use a crisp bag as contraception?

Hate to judge but given her reason for not having a baby is that she thinks she will get a pink Range Rover is it not fairly safe to assume she is dumb enough.

[beninho]

You can be responsible and it can still happen, nothing offers a 100% cast iron guarantee. SHe may not have been completely careful, but it really is not a black and white issue.

[McLaren]

Why do you think it matters how she got pregnant? However it happened she still has a choice.

[GunsGerms]

You can be responsible and it can still happen, nothing offers a 100% cast iron guarantee. SHe may not have been completely careful, but it really is not a black and white issue.

Nor is the issue of abortion for me. Not willing to say whether I agree or disagree with it because I honestly dont know.

One thing is for sure is that publically saying you want to terminate your baby because you want to be famous is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

[McLaren]

You do know an abortion doesn't terminate a baby? It terminates a basic embryo.

[super_realist]

The reality is that it's absolutely no business of anyone else whether or why this person wants to have an abortion. This isn't backward Ireland.

As for accidents, I'd imagine at least 50% of us were not planned, but that doesn't make 50% of parents idiots.

[GunsGerms]

Why do you think it matters how she got pregnant?  However it happened she still has a choice.

Abortion is a complicated matter but when it was made legal in the Uk I doubt law makers passed the legislation to facilitate z list celebraties ambitions to drive a pink car and star on big brother. Surely there are much more legitimate reasons for making such a difficult decision.

I would find it much more paletable if she just said that she wanted to have a child with someone she loved and would rather have one when she was in a financial position to give it a good life or something like that.

[barragan]

Anyway thinking of a little trip to the Scottish highlands. Not something to walky as the wife is getting fat, but thinking nairn or Elgin. Any Scots on here been their or gave advise or recommendations??

Nairn's nice enough - good beach. Being a Black Isle boy I'd opt for somewhere like Rosemarkie though.

[beninho]

Yes it is, but the vitriol she received is very over the top. She may be stupid, but she has made a legitimate decision in her eyes. She should have gone ahead, and quietly carried out the procedure, no need to tell anyone.

[GunsGerms]

You do know an abortion doesn't terminate a baby?  It terminates a basic embryo.

Granted baby may have been the wrong word to use.

[GunsGerms]

The reality is that it's absolutely no business of anyone else whether or why this person wants to have an abortion. This isn't backward Ireland.

As for accidents, I'd imagine at least 50% of us were not planned, but that doesn't make 50% of parents idiots.

Well thankfully we werent aborted Super. Thankfully I wasnt anyway.

[super_realist]

Why do you think it matters how she got pregnant?  However it happened she still has a choice.

Abortion is a complicated matter but when it was made legal in the Uk I doubt law makers passed the legislation to facilitate z list celebraties ambitions to drive a pink car and star on big brother. Surely there are much more legitimate reasons for making such a difficult decision.

I would find it much more paletable if she just said that she wanted to have a child with someone she loved and would rather have one when she was in a financial position to give it a good life or something like that.

It doesn't matter Guns. The reason is irrelevant, however. If a person who is pregnant gives the reason she gave for wanting to abort, then it seems pretty plain she isn't mature enough to have a child anyway.

[GunsGerms]

It doesn't matter Guns. The reason is irrelevant, however. If a person who is pregnant gives the reason she gave for wanting to abort, then it seems pretty plain she isn't mature enough to have a child anyway.

Its irrelevant to you and in the eyes of the law but that doesnt mean everyone else has to like.

I agree with your last point in principle.

[super_realist]

They can dislike if they want. It's none of their business.

[beninho]

Cheers Barragan, A friend from glasgow has advised flying into Glasgow and driving up via Fort William. Im not sure whether its best to fly into Inverness and get something up that way for a couple of days, then head back to Edinburgh - or however its spelt - for a night before flying home.

[Diggers]

My assumption is she did not have sex with the plan to become pregnant. Sometimes these things happen, even if you are being careful.

Fairly rarely though. If you are responsible it wont happen.

Did she use a crisp bag as contraception?

Hate to judge but given her reason for not having a baby is that she thinks she will get a pink Range Rover is it not fairly safe to assume she is dumb enough.

Irresponsible isn't one person being careless, irresponsible is legislation that would bring thousands of unwanted kids into the world.

[GunsGerms]

They can dislike if they want. It's none of their business.

That would be true if the woman in question didnt make her reasons so public. Once you put yourself out there is it reasonable to expect people cant have an opinion on it?

Is she using this a a way of drawing attention to herself?

[pedro]

Who are we to judge what other people want to do with their own body?
We can think it's stupid and we can have an opinion about who should pay for it, but we can not objectively judge whether it's right or wrong. Only she can.

[super_realist]

They can dislike if they want. It's none of their business.

That would be true if the woman in question didnt make her reasons so public. Once you put yourself out there is it reasonable to expect people cant have an opinion on it?

Is she using this a a way of drawing attention to herself?

No, they can say she has stupid reasons for an abortion. They cannot say she shouldn't have one.

[GunsGerms]

Irresponsible isn't one person being careless, irresponsible is legislation that would bring thousands of unwanted kids into the world.

Its the reasons why she doesnt want the child that I dont understand. Seems selfish to me.

I would be in favour of abortions for junkies for example because facilitating them have kids is just perpetuating a big societal problem. There is also some evidence that crime rates drop in countries where abortion has been introduced for similar reasons.

Women who have been raped or whose lives are in danger because of their pregnancy, there are lots of reasons to legislate for it but I just dont think if should be allowed for any reason whatsoever. Thats my opinion I dont think it is as black and white as everyone else seems to think on this thread.

[GunsGerms]

No, they can say she has stupid reasons for an abortion. They cannot say she shouldn't have one.

Well clearly not because it isnt against the law in the UK.

[super_realist]

Guns, you can't legislate on what type of person should be permitted an abortion.
You can only legislate the terms of an abortion as applied by law. Everyone must fit in with the terms in order to be have one.

An embryo has no right to occupy another persons body against their will, so not wanting the baby, no matter how you express it, is the only reason you need.

[super_realist]

No, they can say she has stupid reasons for an abortion. They cannot say she shouldn't have one.

Well clearly not because it isnt against the law in the UK.

What I mean is that people cannot force the woman to have the baby on the basis that they dislike her reason. I'd have thought that was obvious.

[GunsGerms]

Guns, you can't legislate on what type of person should be permitted an abortion.
You can only legislate the terms of an abortion as applied by law. Everyone must fit in with the terms in order to be have one.

An embryo has no right to occupy another persons body against their will, so not wanting the baby, no matter how you express it, is the only reason you need.

Actually you can. Abortion in Ireland is illegal unless it occurs as the result of a medical intervention performed to save the life of the mother.

[GunsGerms]

No, they can say she has stupid reasons for an abortion. They cannot say she shouldn't have one.

Well clearly not because it isnt against the law in the UK.

What I mean is that people cannot force the woman to have the baby on the basis that they dislike her reason. I'd have thought that was obvious.

Yes I understand that I'm not claiming otherwise.

[super_realist]

Guns, you can't legislate on what type of person should be permitted an abortion.
You can only legislate the terms of an abortion as applied by law. Everyone must fit in with the terms in order to be have one.

An embryo has no right to occupy another persons body against their will, so not wanting the baby, no matter how you express it, is the only reason you need.

Actually you can. Abortion in Ireland is illegal unless it occurs as the result of a medical intervention performed to save the life of the mother.

Who cares what Ireland thinks? I've no time for such backward legislation or religiously inspired laws. THis isn't Ireland, the case in question isn't Irish and so it is completely irrelevant.

[McLaren]

Super

I think I agree with most of what you say other than

they can say she has stupid reasons for an abortion

I don't think there is a stupid reason for wanting an abortion. Any reason results in not wishing to go through with the pregnancy and that is all that is needed. No questions need to be asked.

[beninho]

Didn't someone die in Ireland recently due to the abortion laws? They asked for an abortion, but was not provided. I may be wrong, but i recall hearing it.

[super_realist]

Super

I think I agree with most of what you say other than

they can say she has stupid reasons for an abortion

I don't think there is a stupid reason for wanting an abortion.  Any reason results in not wishing to go through with the pregnancy and that is all that is needed.  No questions need to be asked.

What I mean Mac is that they are free to say they don't agree with her reasons, but can't force her to go through with the pregnancy because they consider her reasons aren't good enough.

Ben, yes, a woman died in Ireland when they refused her an abortion, despite the fact the child wouldn't have survived childbirth anyway. Tragic.

[McLaren]

The may be free to say it, but it doesn't mean they are talking any sense. How can a choice be free if people face persecution for opting one way or another? People are removing womens free choice by making such idiotic comments.

[pedro]

GG, It's legislation based on religious beliefs. It's medieval and bigoted. Who are we to judge what other people can do with their own body?

If you really are religious then I guess you can wait to have your judgement till you face your creator? No need to have terrestrial legislation or impose your religious beleifs on others. When you die you can face God. When you're alive you can repent. Leave the rest of us alone please.

[GunsGerms]

Guns, you can't legislate on what type of person should be permitted an abortion.
You can only legislate the terms of an abortion as applied by law. Everyone must fit in with the terms in order to be have one.

An embryo has no right to occupy another persons body against their will, so not wanting the baby, no matter how you express it, is the only reason you need.

Actually you can. Abortion in Ireland is illegal unless it occurs as the result of a medical intervention performed to save the life of the mother.

Who cares what Ireland thinks? I've no time for such backward legislation or religiously inspired laws. THis isn't Ireland, the case in question isn't Irish and so it is completely irrelevant.

I do because I'm Irish. Also the Irish legal system is quite similar to that of the UK in that we both have a common law system and some of the precedents that form part of the decisions in the Irish courts come from UK courts.

We also have a similar parlimentary system and of course both subject to the same EU legislation.

The constitution was amended in Ireland a long time ago over 40 years ago to remove reference to religion. We are a secular state.

The issue of abortion isnt necessarly a religious issue. Do you find that hard to accept?

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