Three thousand six hundred days and counting......

On the 19th of June this year, it will have a exactly a decade since Ireland has visited the shores of South Africa. Since then the Springboks have visited Ireland 5 times, on Saturday the 8th of November 2014 the Springboks will face the Irish for the sixth time away from home since the last visit to the Republic.

With next year being a RWC year it means we won't see them then either.

What is the reason for this, does anyone have a clue as to why Ireland does not visit South Africa?

I realise the distances involved between the Southern Hemisphere nations are greater, hence we don't host a June series whereby we will host a rotating schedule between say England, Ireland and Wales between OZ, NZ and SA. So we get the odd two test series.

Last year we had the Quad tournament between ourselves, Scotland, Samoa and Italy, which I thought was a great idea. It would allow teams to play double fixtures at venues and all four teams got to play 3 tests during the June test window.

Would this not be the solution to use the June test windows for SA, OZ and NZ to hold quad tournaments whereby we can each invite two six nation teams and one of the Pacific Island teams and rotate it from one year to the next?

This will give context to the three series (You could call them the Craven Shield, Campese Shield and Lomu Shield)

It will also provide the Pacific Islands the opportunity to play 3 tier one nations every June which in turn would provide them more revenue (some will surely be shared) and give them more competitive matches outside their usual opponents.

Just a thought.

When I saw the title I wondered "Which South African has been banned this time?"

I really like the Quad competitions idea. The big one will be will they make enough money for the host nation compared with 2 or 3 tests against a 'top' nation. If they do they hopefully everyone will be on board.

Perhaps a 4N team (South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and Argentina) could host another SH side (Samoa, Tonga, Fiji and ....?), a top tier NH side (this bit is tricky but Ireland, England, Wales and France) and a 'second' tier NH side (Scotland, Italy, Georgia and Romania?). It would be nice if the 2nd tier SH team got a share of the money as well for 'giving up' their home games.

It would be awesome for the November tours as well, but a bit fiddly as there are 6 unions used to the money from home games.

I wish Ireland went there more often. The last tour was pretty good. Ireland have a three test tour to South Africa in 2016. If Schmidt is still manager I predict Ireland will win at least one test, unless they are all played on top of a mountain or something.

They have played 6 matches vs NZ in that time and 3 vs. AUS in the period between.

I wouldn't say they are necessarily dodging SA but its a little bizarre why they don't seem to want to tour.

Scotland have played 3 test matches in SA since Ireland last appeared, and will have another this year. England 5 times.

Its up to both unions to arrange fixtures but I don't think it does them any favours in the long run by avoiding them (whether intentional or not).

If teams want to develop they have to go to places like SA and perform. No point saying, on our home ground, with our fans, with the right bounce of the ball and our full XV out, we can match the boks.

How do you know it isnt SA who has not facilitated the tour? Maybe they have only invited other teams.

GunsGerms wrote:I wish Ireland went there more often. The last tour was pretty good. Ireland have a three test tour to South Africa in 2016. If Schmidt is still manager I predict Ireland will win at least one test, unless they are all played on top of a mountain or something.

At least 1 test... sounds like fighting talk to me.

Remember this is the country that has never experienced a home defeat to Ireland, Scotland or Wales in 21 matches. They have only experience defeat in 9 out of 55 matches (ex. Lions tours) 3 to England, 6 to France.

SA will probably be peaking as a team around that period. Personally I see them as the team to beat with England from 2015-17.

If they do get a victory it would probably be Ireland's greatest achievement in rugby (a victory in SA is not to be sniffed at).

GunsGerms wrote:How do you know it isnt SA who has not facilitated the tour? Maybe they have only invited other teams.

I can't see SA avoiding Ireland.

They have hosted France 4 times, England 5 times, Scotland 3 times (soon to be 4), Italy 4 times and Wales 3 times (soon to be 5) since 2005.

Why would they be willing to travel to Ireland 5 times in the period where Ireland haven't gone to SA (undoubtedly a tougher assignment than facing them at home) if it was SA who didn't want Ireland to tour their shores.

As I said I don't think Ireland are avoiding SA, maybe they prefer to tour AUS/NZ because they have a bigger support base there?

Its probably financial whatever the case... although TV revenue in Ireland will be minimal for a NZ or AUS game. SA it would pubs packed to the rafters at peak time.

Ireland's greatest achievement will be to beat the All Blacks once.

Next will be an away victory against the All Blacks.... (which might actually come sooner than a home win )

Anyway, then perhaps the away victory to South Africa would be next.

But small steps.... Rome wasn't built in a day.

It's weird. I wish we would go there, but not this summer- this summer is about re-building and rotating.

Wales have been there many more times than us.

HammerofThunor wrote:When I saw the title I wondered "Which South African has been banned this time?"

I really like the Quad competitions idea.  The big one will be will they make enough money for the host nation compared with 2 or 3 tests against a 'top' nation.  If they do they hopefully everyone will be on board.

Perhaps a 4N team (South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and Argentina) could host another SH side (Samoa, Tonga, Fiji and ....?), a top tier NH side (this bit is tricky but Ireland, England, Wales and France) and a 'second' tier NH side (Scotland, Italy, Georgia and Romania?).  It would be nice if the 2nd tier SH team got a share of the money as well for 'giving up' their home games.

It would be awesome for the November tours as well, but a bit fiddly as there are 6 unions used to the money from home games.

Quite like your idea as well mate. I know we have had an English series of 3 tests in 2012, but with the Lions last year, it wasn't plausible.

Quad competitions seem like such a great idea.

Churchill cup at the level down was a great competition, no reason why some of the big boys cant have the same kind of fun.

Good call, don't know why we don't tour there. But glad to hear we plan to travel there in 2016 at least.

Mods shouldn't be allowed to post threads with such titles. You could give a WUM a coronary.   

It's a good idea to have Argentina NZ SA and Oz hosting a NH side and a Pacific island team and perhaps some fringe team to expose them to top rugby. I like these 3 test series but it makes sense to add a bit more variety.

The Lions gets in the way....

The Lions only affects one nation really. Scotland would certainly not have a problem...

Biltong wrote:On the 19th of June this year, it will have a exactly a decade since Ireland has visited the shores of South Africa. Since then the Springboks have visited Ireland 5 times, on Saturday the 8th of November 2014 the Springboks will face the Irish for the sixth time away from home since the last visit to the Republic.

With next year being a RWC year it means we won't see them then either.

What is the reason for this, does anyone have a clue as to why Ireland does not visit South Africa?

I realise the distances involved between the Southern Hemisphere nations are greater, hence we don't host a June series whereby we will host a rotating schedule between say England, Ireland and Wales between OZ, NZ and SA. So we get the odd two test series.

Last year we had the Quad tournament between ourselves, Scotland, Samoa and Italy, which I thought was a great idea. It would allow teams to play double fixtures at venues and all four teams got to play 3 tests during the June test window.

Would this not be the solution to use the June test windows for SA, OZ and NZ to hold quad tournaments whereby we can each invite two six nation teams and one of the Pacific Island teams and rotate it from one year to the next?

This will give context to the three series (You could call them the Craven Shield, Campese Shield and Lomu Shield)

It will also provide the Pacific Islands the opportunity to play 3 tier one nations every June which in turn would provide them more revenue (some will surely be shared) and give them more competitive matches outside their usual opponents.

Just a thought.

Would the Craven Shield be for the player that pulls out and avoids the most tackles in the tour?

  

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:The Lions only affects one nation really. Scotland would certainly not have a problem...

Scotland would prefer have the problem. The general rule is that if you have a Lions problem, you have players good enough to at least test the SH in the first place. Although that rule gets broken too............... em...........forget I brought it up, actually.
Carry on

The reason is dispute between the two nations about change strips. As the green on green clash has failed to be resolved by Ireland away.

That game was in Dublin- tradition dictates that in test rugby if there is a clash of strips the home side changes!

Exactly. It all began in 2006 - shortly after the at the time recent Irish visit, where the springboks wore their traditional green/white combo sans sponsoring during the 100 year celebration.

You won't read much about it, but an administrative feud it is. You will likely hear it dredged up in public for the first time in 2016...

Delighted to hear that the SRU aren't the only organisation with a commitment to pettyness! That is ridiculous.

It is a nuance of the fixtures lists alright.
Would Ireland be a decent draw of a fixture in SA? Do SA feel they could generate more appeal and revenue out of Wales, England or France visiting?

The one obsession Ireland does have is travelling to NZ, 2012, 2010, 2008, 2006 all involved visits to New Zealand to be cannon fodder. That's four of the last 9 years right there, coupled with another 3 years being Lions years which had the 'National' side going to USA/Japan. In 2007 then we went to Argentina for a the summer tests, an interesting move considering we were in the same group for the RWC that year. Not sure if we visited anywhere for the summer of 2011, open for correction.

So in reality it is down to (a) Ireland being obsessed with getting beaten by NZ or (b) SA having a preference to make more money from the England/France/Wales option.

Part of the problem is when SH teams come North they tend to play multiple countries as they are so close together( less traveling than in some SH countries). When NH go south they tend to only play one country due to the distances involved.

Exactly, hence the only way I believe we can get more teams in June is to host a quad tournament where you invite three teams and have double fixtures three weekends in succession.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Exactly. It all began in 2006 - shortly after the at the time recent Irish visit, where the springboks wore their traditional green/white combo sans sponsoring during the 100 year celebration.

You won't read much about it, but an administrative feud it is. You will likely hear it dredged up in public for the first time in 2016...

So you are saying it is SA's fault Ireland haven't toured to SA because they don't want to wear their away kit?

So should the IRB state that June/November IW be for 4 team tournements with only 2 Tier1 teams in each?

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Exactly. It all began in 2006 - shortly after the at the time recent Irish visit, where the springboks wore their traditional green/white combo sans sponsoring during the 100 year celebration.

You won't read much about it, but an administrative feud it is. You will likely hear it dredged up in public for the first time in 2016...

So you are saying it is SA's fault Ireland haven't toured to SA because they don't want to wear their away kit?

Now you're putting words in my mouth. But if you look at the teams that tour it speaks volumes.

broadlandboy wrote:So should the IRB state that June/November IW be for 4 team tournements with only 2 Tier1 teams in each?

I wouldn't mind that, but I doubt it will happen due to unions wanting as much revenue as possible.

Unfortunately I agree with you Biltong

I think this quad tournament idea for June is a fantastic one. The two games could be played back to back at the same venue so as to maximise gate sales. You'd have enough interested home fans turn up early to watch the first game before staying on for their own team to play. There's also probably enough expats in each of the SH countries to fill the gaps. It'd be a rugby extravaganza.

biltong wrote:Would this not be the solution to use the June test windows for SA, OZ and NZ to hold quad tournaments whereby we can each invite two six nation teams and one of the Pacific Island teams and rotate it from one year to the next?

That is a brilliant idea.

If it is a shirt problem, we could try these ones again, they seemed fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shNpicZJKKU

Ah, nostalgia, not really a colour though, eh?

I don't like green hoops..... too much like a 'Celtic' Barbarian team.    It's a no from me, I'm afraid.

Looking at that move though, we were quite sweet and nimble when we wanted to be (even without Lord of the Sith Schmidt ) and Hickie - now there was a man who retired much too soon.

Ireland could always use orange as the base colour for change strips.

Shoulder to shoulder and all that...

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Exactly. It all began in 2006 - shortly after the at the time recent Irish visit, where the springboks wore their traditional green/white combo sans sponsoring during the 100 year celebration.

You won't read much about it, but an administrative feud it is. You will likely hear it dredged up in public for the first time in 2016...

So you are saying it is SA's fault Ireland haven't toured to SA because they don't want to wear their away kit?

Now you're putting words in my mouth. But if you look at the teams that tour it speaks volumes.

What exactly are you saying then? Ireland wont tour because SA wont let them wear their green jersey? Surely as the away team its their right to wear the green jersey?

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Ireland could always use orange as the base colour for change strips.

Shoulder to shoulder and all that...

I suppose England did bring out a black one to accomodate all their Kiwis in the world cup.

Any stripes....... would be a no from me. I just don't like stripes/hoops on shirts.

As for the Orange? I don't see a problem with it, given its a pretty substantial colour on Ireland's (Republic) flag. Shoulder to shoulder and all that

But I'm puzzled by this apparent long running 'controversy'. Ireland changed their kit when South Africa played in Ireland? Yes? - Yes - Proof above in a pic.
Yet Ireland are now the party being considered difficult about the clash of colours thing in the event of them turning up in South Africa? Is that the gist of this one?

Simple solution - South Africa should reciprocate and assist any 'difficulties' by finding a different colour for themselves.

We have a white jersey and have worn it when required, if you believe the jersey colour to be the issue then ....well.....   

GunsGerms wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Ireland could always use orange as the base colour for change strips.

Shoulder to shoulder and all that...

I suppose England did bring out a black one to accomodate all their Kiwis in the world cup.

That was a peace and reconciliation thing I suppose.

No better place for Ireland than South Africa to publicly demonstrate any residual political rift healing.

A game in Belfast to celebrate the new Ravenhill might be good too.

Biltong wrote:We have a white jersey and have worn it when required, if you believe the jersey colour to be the issue then ....well.....   

I doubt it is an issue.

Biltong wrote:We have a white jersey and have worn it when required, if you believe the jersey colour to be the issue then ....well.....   

I personally don't believe it's the issue...but it seems to be getting some traction in this thread for some reason.

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:We have a white jersey and have worn it when required, if you believe the jersey colour to be the issue then ....well.....   

I personally don't believe it's the issue...but it seems to be getting some traction in this thread for some reason.

Question the source.......

I do question the source...usually a controversialist certainly - but usually one that wouldn't have the personality to belittle his substantial knowledge of the game to do a joke about jerseys being an issue between Ireland and South Africa.  

Just a weird one to mention and if there is even a tiny bit of truth to it then that truth would be even more baffling, because, as has been said by you and some of us, it would be an easily solved issue as both sides have worn alternative kits when required.

I have never heard or seen anyone or anything that suggested it is an issue until this thread, so best just ignore it and move along.

It is odd that no match in South Africa has been arranged between them and the Irish in the past ten years.

Whether by accident or design, it is odd.

How many parallel AI's have been played in that time period?

The most plausable theory I have heard is that Ireland have much more fans in Oz and NZ and therefore those games are more likely to sell tickets.

SA fans dont rate Ireland at all anyway so it probably wouldnt attract much interest and financially possibly it doesnt make much sense for each team.

That is a bit of a disparaging thing to say about SA fans isn't it, GG?

Ireland over that period have played their best rugby - consistently - since the day dot.

GunsGerms wrote:The most plausable theory I have heard is that Ireland have much more fans in Oz and NZ and therefore those games are more likely to sell tickets.

SA fans dont rate Ireland at all anyway so it probably wouldnt attract much interest and financially possibly it doesnt make much sense for each team.

I think that is a misnomer, we all (the colonies) come from Europe, the fact that we speak more languages doesn't mean we won't support Irish tours.

We love it when people tour here.