PGA Tour: Aussie Rules???: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

1).It seems only a few weeks ago we were talking about this 20/30-year-old generation of Aussie Golf not pulling its weight on the PGA Tour and now look what's happened! Jason Day at the Match Play, Sendo (OK, he's 40-something) at Innisbrook, and now Bowditch in San Antonio. Three wins in six weeks and another thrown away by Adam Scott. Whatever next!
 
2).Steven Bowditch's win seemed a popular one among the Aussies in San Antone, with Senden, Baddeley and Scott Gardiner among those surrounding the 18th green to greet him. And good for him. I shared this link on last week's thread when Bowditch won but I'll offer it again as a rare insight into one of the sporting life's rarely discussed (Trescothick excepted) illnesses, depression:
 
http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-tours-news/2009-04/gw20090427_moriarty
 
Don't want to characterize it any more, make your own mind up. Some of the stuff makes Bowditch sound like a golfing savant, almost Moe Norman-like. Let's hope the demons stay away and he can enjoy the success his sheer talent may earn.
 
3).So, halfway through the FedEx Cup season, pre-play-offs, and we have three Aussie wins and the rest is American domination. But, having said that, it's a very regional domination. Of the 17 tournaments American golfers have won so far, the split by State/Region where the golfer grew up, is as follows:
 
Texas/Oklahoma: 5 (Walker (3), Reed (2)
Carolinas: 3
Georgia: 3
Florida: 2
Washington: 1
Mid-West: 1
North-East: 1
California: 1
 
4).The big surprise recently has been the dearth of top golfers from California. The State that just a few generations ago gave us Casper, Littler, Geiberger and Venturi, and followed up with Stockton, Miller, Stadler, O'Meara, Cook, Pavin, Simpson, Loren Roberts etc, now only offers Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson among the game's best, although Fowler, Mahan and Watney may yet get there.
 
5).Of America's best, only Stricker still lives in the Northern States, whilejust Furyk, Bradley and Dufner of the 2012 Ryder Cup Team hailed originally, like Stricker, from Northern States - and they all now live in the South.
This trend will surely continue, the days when three PGA Tour and Ryder Cup Team contemporaries from a tiny village settled by Polish emigres in Central New York could each gain Tour success simultaneously are seemingly gone for ever.
 
6).So! It's not just Europe who's having a dry spell on Tour!! Most of the Americas is too.
 
7).That Woods bloke won't be playing The Masters and the tournament may well be all the poorer for that. Many of our other favourites are also crocked going in to next week's Billy Payne Invitational. To name but a handful:
Phil: We still don't know whether he'll play this week, let alone next.
Day: Very quiet from Camp Jason, apparently rehabbing his injury by practicing at Augusta.
Justin Rose: Is his shoulder still hurting, or is that healed and it's just his putter to worry about?
Oosthuizen: Who knows with King Louis? Who ever knows with him??
Mahan: Withdrew during Bay Hill - is he fully fit?
Schwartzel, Watney: Returning from paternity leave - will they have their heads back in the game? Watney has also been injured and hasn't played since leaving a 6-figure pay cheque behind by w/d'ing from Doral.
Lots of caveats emptor going down Magnolia Lane.
 
8).With Mickelson and Woods both with their backs to the wall, how does the US Ryder Cup Team look now?
 
With the very real prospect that at least Tiger, and possibly Phil also, will be on the shelf for much of the summer, Tom Watson must be wondering about having to (or being press-ganged into) use two of his three picks on his two biggest stars. Right now, the top nine on the qualifying points list looks like this:
~Walker, Dustin, Reed, Bubba, Dufner, English, Zach, Phil, Simpson. With more potential rookies Moore, Kirk and Matt Every to follow.
 
So, Tom, that could be one Captain's Choice to share among Spieth, Bradley, Furyk, Kuchar, Mahan, Bill Haas, Snedeker and Stricker to name just candidates from the most recent two Presidents and Ryder Cup squads.
 
9).Don't panic! The season's only halfway through, and here we are at Houston. There'll be 144 golfers teeing off but this is one tournament where it's tough to tell whether all the talent will have thier competitive motors running at 100%. This is an event where Americans have had to yield a few wins in recent years, with Aussies Appleby, Allenby and Scott, Paul Casey and Vijay being among the winners. Henrik Stenson has played well and, if he's going to carry my money in to Augusta, he'd better have another decent week.
Westwood seems to like the place also with good finishes, but his traditionally excellent ball-striking stats are downright horrible for 2014 - is this the place to rediscover his competitive mojo?
 
10).One guy who won't be in Houston is my fave Will MacKenzie, but what a year he's having!
There was chat on here a few weeks ago about the number of young Americans going straight from school to university. Willie Mac is one guy whose college scholarship offer was as a kicker on the East Carolina football team, which he declined, and took a path less well travelled to the mini-tours and wherever that took him.
 
To get an insight into Tour life through the eyes of a real live character, I recommend this excellent interview on pgatour.com:
 
http://www.pgatour.com/video/2014/03/31/will-mackenzie-talks-with-john-swantek-on-march-31st--2014.html
 
Will is probably never going to win a Green Jacket, but one might feel that every Tour Pro could use a healthy dose of the lifestyle he chose as an early 20-something.

I'd think Kuchar was a pretty decent bet e.w. at 20/1 and paying (as Paddy Power is for instance) top 6. You're almost guaranteed a decent run for your money.

Hard to call next week, I would favour Mcilroy as much as I hate the prospect of him winning another major and then DJ.

Ryan Moore is someone I see going well.

Ryan Moore is something like 100/1; agree, very good value, unlikely winner but he's played well there before.

They'll be on their way in threesomes off both nines in a moment, but threat of bad weather seems to have receded - could be clobbered tomorrow though.

pedro wrote:

Davie wrote:Don't forget Kuch .. that where my money has gone this week

Kuchar is on my short list for Augusta. But at odds around 21 it would hardly be worth an e/w bet?

If you get 1/4 odds for a place, that's still worth a bet. Don't see too many players with a GOOD chance at more that 25s although there are always going to be outsidiers coming in - it's just a matter of picking which one with a pin. What odds do you consider worthwhile for an e/w bet?

I take it this site's down today? Edit: apparently not. Jones giving it a really good shot at making Kwini look like Nostradamus!

Even more so now...can you believe what just happened with Kuchar? Also imagine the bunker raker won't be on Garcias xmas card list!!

Some putt from Jones on the last and Kuchar's shot from the middle of the fairway was an inexcusable tbh!

What the hell was that penalty drop of Kuch's all about though? Surprised not been mentioned on TV. I know it was a lateral hazard but he was WAY more than 2 club lengths away from the pond .. and the TV camera angle from right behind him with his 4th shot to the green showed there was no water at all between him and the flag .. so much for keeping the point of crossing between you and the pin!

Even the commentators said (when he dumped it in the water) that it had crossed the hazard line way back. So how the hell did he get to drop it where he did?

What a way to get to Augusta.

Well done Matt Jones.

Brilliant finish from Jones, and well done Kwini! Who should we bet on for next week?

Davie, you can go as far back as you like keeping point of entry between you and the hole.

"Aussie rules", eh kwini? What's your headline for next week?

Clairvoyant article title Kwini... OWGR week 14 thread is up with updated rankings...

"From the Matts"?

Shocking finish from Kuchar... Had him on 25/1 ew, aye cheers.. Sergio on too at same odds, some performance from Matt Jones, firstly holing that birdie at 18 then the chip in..

SmithersJones wrote:Brilliant finish from Jones, and well done Kwini! Who should we bet on for next week?

Davie, you can go as far back as you like keeping point of entry between you and the hole.

Well I know that Smithers .. but which point of entry did he keep between him and the hole? From the camera angle I saw there was NO water between him and the hole

Davie wrote:

pedro wrote:

Davie wrote:Don't forget Kuch .. that where my money has gone this week

Kuchar is on my short list for Augusta. But at odds around 21 it would hardly be worth an e/w bet?

If you get 1/4 odds for a place, that's still worth a bet. Don't see too many players with a GOOD chance at more that 25s although there are always going to be outsidiers coming in - it's just a matter of picking which one with a pin. What odds do you consider worthwhile for an e/w bet?

You're right. 20/1 could be ok. But as most of you say, it's a very open race this year and I'd like to place 1 or 2 more e/w bets at higher odds - just can't seem to find any prospects. Playing (and winning) place bets only at around 20/1 is a bit like kissing your sister (espcially when you only play 5 quid a bet as I do) so I usually like to add a few at higher odds. Anyway, think I'll go with Kuchar and hope to add a few more at around 50.

I'm never wrong wrote:"From the Matts"?

"Back Payne"?

Take a look at this video on YouTube .. see if you can determine which part of the hazard the ball last crossed, then when it shows his drop and chip to the green tell me which part of the hazard he is actually keeping between him and the flag .. I can't see any

Spoiler:

Davie

I agree, not sure what type of drop he tried to take but he didn't meet any of the criteria set down for taking relief from a lateral water hazard.


It is clear from the video he posted that from where he took the drop no part of the water hazard could have been on that line, and therefore he is not on a line with point of crossing and the pin.

Pretty simple stuff if people are not convinced

http://www.randa.org/en/Playing-Golf/Quick-Guide-to-the-Rules/Relief-Situations-and-Procedures/Water-Hazards.aspx

Nope, looks fine to me. The pin is back left, and there's a little promontory where he ends up dropping. The ball last crosses the margin just ahead of that promontory, on a drawing trajectory. Pause at 42" and then again at 48".

Spoiler:

Don't know if this picture will work - having trouble posting from the office .. but may help explain what I mean

No, it doesn't seem to work Davie.

Hmmm .. works on my phone .. I'll try to post it tonight .. but i t's basically a capture of that video from 1:17 .. and I've drawn a line from the ball to the hole .. it doesn't seem to cross the hazard line anywhere

Mac

Please reread the rules. If this is a lateral water hazard, he doesn't necessarily have to keep the point of entry between the ball and the flag. Rule 21-6 c permits the dropping of a ball within 2 club lengths of the point where it last crossed the margin of the hazard.

If there is any controversy then this is it, as the picture looks a lot more than 2 club lengths. BUT I cannot see the line marking the margin of the hazard.

Eyetoldyouso wrote:Mac

Please reread the rules. If this is a lateral water hazard, he doesn't necessarily have to keep the point of entry between the ball and the flag. Rule 21-6 c permits the dropping of a ball within 2 club lengths of the point where it last crossed the margin of the hazard.

If there is any controversy then this is it, as the picture looks a lot more than 2 club lengths. BUT I cannot see the line marking the margin of the hazard.

I already mentioned this though when I first brought it up .. from that picture or still frame from 1:17 in the video, you are correct, you can't see the hazard line . but it is certainly more than two club lengths away

Sorry - its Rule 26-1 c

eye

Are you kidding me, does it bleeding look like he is 2 clubs away from the water.

Doesn't Kuch use a long putter? Perhaps he used it to measure the drop

What's up Navy? Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

Mac

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt"

Davie wrote:What's up Navy? Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

I'm just laughing at Mac's slightly dense comment when just before there had been discussion over where the actual hazard boundary was. Maybe he missed it. Still...  

Fair enough .. I just cant believe no one else noticed it. I'm not particularly an armchair referee but this sort of inaccurate drop is one of the biggest transgresssions I see at club level and I can't believe a Pro got away with it . unless there is some other explanation

He must have dropped correctly Davie, no way something like that would go unnoticed.

Not having seen the video and I'm assuming his drop isn't shown on it. Isn't the ball required to be dropped and strike the course within two club lengths and then it's allowed to bounce or roll up to another two club lengths? Could that explain the additional distance?

Yes well I would hope so inco .. which really is why I was asking here .. can anyone come up with an explanation to make the drop correct? Because I certainly can't. The 2 club lengths lateral would seem to be the only possible explanation but it really doesn't look possible

1GG has a point there but looking at the lay of the land there (and the length of the rough) it doesn't really look as if that is possible either

So with officials all over the place, 2 other players with caddies, thousands of spectators in the galleries, commentators and millions of viewers on TV...nobody else has said anything??

Don't you think there's a teensy chance you might have missed something obvious Davie??

One thing I never noticed was where the hazard stakes actually were...were they half way up the slope to the water? The other thing is the camera can play funny tricks in terms of distorting distance.

JAS wrote:

Don't you think there's a teensy chance you might have missed something obvious Davie??

Maybe that's why I posed the question JAS - ever think of that? Where else could I ask the question? Yes I suppose the is a teensy chance I've missed something and I'd like to know what it could be - and no one has come up with anything convincing yet so it can't be that obvious.   

It is possible the camera foreshortens distances but the freeze frame at around 1:15 makes it look AT LEAST 4 club lengths if not more .. that is quite some foreshortening.

Also at around 0:50 in the video the commentator says something about "that didn't cross any of the hazard except way short of the green" .. wonder what he meant by that .. could that be a clue to the mystery?

Davie wrote:can anyone come up with an explanation to make the drop correct?

As others have said, perhaps camera angle? Ever notice when someone takes a shot on tv it often appears to go way to the right?

If it were the divine and adulated golf god Eldrick who had made such a mistake there would be an outcry from the foaming mouthed, window lickers.

I can only assume that it was yellow staked around his point of entry, so he has went back on a line from where it was assumed to have crossed the hazard line. That would make a pretty straightforward explanation. The commentator is spouting utter gash about it not crossing the hazard....the clue was in the splash!!

Davie... But maybe it does work... Actually I had the same thought on the drop at the time I saw it as you did and was planning on checking it out anyway...

But your photo helps a lot.. and in fact with the red line drawn, the image actually does more to convince me it very well might have been a PROPER drop than the other way around. Your red line actually goes left of the bottom of the hazard stake (inside the hazard)... and from looking at other angles including those of other players on that hole and around the green... IMO the actual hazard line drawn on the grass continues to the right a little in front of that stake that is in your picture.

So I decided to take another step further and look at an overhead and try to place the pin placement and Kuchar's drop using the available information..... Here's what I came up with, and an explanation of the lines below...



Here is the link if the images does not display above... https://i.servimg.com/u/f56/18/25/95/53/18gree10.jpg

Using the measuring tools from Google earth I was able to come up with the following.

1. line 1 is the angle into the green from the middle of the fairway, which is important because this is the way the tour measures green depths for pin sheets

The pin sheet for the day indicates the pin was 27 on a 36 deep green, 7 from the left

2. Line 2 is placed off the center line but corresponds to  measurement of 36 yards green depth

3. Line 3 is placed off the center line but corresponds with a measurement of 27 yards

4. Line 4 represents the right angle on which the Left "off" edge the measurement would have been taken.

5. Line 5 is placed off the angle line but corresponds with a measurement of 7 yards.

6. The yellow line is drawn at a length of 64 yards (as indicated by shot tracker)  Thus the top of the yellow line is the approximate pin position, and the bottom of the line is the approx placement of Kuchar's drop.  I think both are pretty closely

Disclaimer... the above measurements assumes similar FW and green cuts/shapes which could be slightly off from the time the Google Earth image was taken and the actual on Sunday... and I have no ideal the accuracy of Google Earth measuring tools... but they seem pretty accurate.

Bottom line: it's CLOSE... too close IMO to make a definitive call either way.   I'm just glad now (in a way) that Kuchar didn't win or this could be a huge issue. I know players don't want to call in officials all the time... but IMO if we learned anything from dropgate #2 at the Players last year... its that players would serve themselves well to bring officials in EVERYTIME a player perceives the procedure they are about to follow might be brought into question or misunderstood.  IMO a very slight change in the determination on where Kuch's ball crossed the hazard might make this drop legal or not legal... it's that close IMO.  That's why the officials are there...

JAS wrote:I can only assume that it was yellow staked around his point of entry, so he has went back on a line from where it was assumed to have crossed the hazard line. That would make a pretty straightforward explanation.

I can only assume you haven't watched the video then JAS as we've already pretty much agree from the frame at 1:15 that there is NO hazard between his point of drop and the pin. So if there IS an honest explanation (rather than a gross error) then it MUST be something to do with the lateral rule. No evidence of yellow stakes anywhere either .. only red.

1GG's explanation is perhaps the closest I've heard so far (that he dropped withing 2 club lengths and it then rolled further .. but the lie of the land in the video still makes that hard to believe

Davie wrote:

JAS wrote:I can only assume that it was yellow staked around his point of entry, so he has went back on a line from where it was assumed to have crossed the hazard line. That would make a pretty straightforward explanation.

..from the frame at 1:15 that there is NO hazard between his point of drop and the pin...

Your line passes through the red stake, which isn't at the extreme of the hazard (you can see the red line to the right of it) so there absolutely is hazard between his ball and the pin.

I refer you again to rule 26-1

The option to take a drop keeping the point of entry between the ball and the flag is available irrespective of whether it's a water hazard (yellow stakes or line) or a lateral water hazard (red stakes or line).

Looking at robopz's photo, it seems clearer that the option Kuch used was 26-1 b

Eyetoldyouso - you don't need to refer me (again) to the rules. I know that rule .. what I don't understand is the interpretation in this case

Robopz - sorry I missed your post earlier .. is there a link somewhere i your post to your picture you are talking about? I can't see it

Davie wrote:Eyetoldyouso - you don't need to refer me (again) to the rules. I know that rule .. what I don't understand is the interpretation in this case

Robopz - sorry I missed your post earlier .. is there a link somewhere i your post to your picture you are talking about? I can't see it

Yeah the picture may or may not display here for all... here's a link to the picture... https://i.servimg.com/u/f56/18/25/95/53/18gree10.jpg

As far as I can tell... yes it was CLOSE... but it appears to me there's reasonable evidence the line from Kuch's drop point to the pin did in fact cross the hazard... 1) davie's photo has a red line drawn in which is LEFT of the bottom of the hazard stake (or inside the hazard) and the hazard line continues further to the right of the stake... then... 2) IF my illustration is correct to Kuch's ball placement and pin placement, it appears a portion of the straight line I drew goes right at the waters edge... and the hazard line would have been somewhat above that... (but it's hard to tell as the Google earth image I used shows the regular cutting pattern, not necessarily the tournament cutting pattern.)

Bottom line... nothing I've shown, Davie's shown or my many reviews of the video is conclusive IMO... especially as being a professional photographer myself I understand how the camera can often trick you into seeing something that's not real.... I'll illustrate that in my next post.

This is an EXTREME example of how a camera angle can Fool the eye....  This is another shot from the footage that clearly shows Kuchar's ball position after he dropped and the pin with a line drawn in between...  If one were to look glance at this their impression might be the line of the ball was WAY inside the hazard, which it most certainly wasn't (as most other video evidence suggests the line between the ball and pin was very close to the hazard line... just barely in, to on, to just outside)...  

Now the behind angles are not exactly straight on a vertical plane either... so there could be some "misconception" in those too.  Also there are many other issues such as barrel and pincushion lens distortion that could be coming into play in trying to draw exact paths of an image from a camera... To do so with 100% accuracy one would have to know the camera, lens and focal length (zoom) at the exact instant of the frame capture...  Zoom lenses generally create massive pincushion at minimum zoom... scaling up to massive barrel distortion at extreme closeup... and it's in differing amounts from top to bottom versus left to right...
then you need to apply the algorithmic corrections to bring the photo back into correct 2d perspective (and 2d vs 3d has it's own set of issues too complicated to get into here)..

All I'm saying is it's more complicated than it seems some times...  we already know that from Tiger's Masters and Players' drops...  At the Players, the blimp angle made the ball appear to be more over the water... the ground angle shots indicated far less so..



If the image doesn't show above here's the link.  https://servimg.com/u/f56/18/25/95/53/18gree11.jpg

Does anybody else think Kuchar actually has a case to answer here? I just don't see it. If there had been any doubt whatsoever it would have been highlighted at or before marking the card. He's gone back on a line from near the right extreme of the hazard cut in.
The camera angles and distortion have made it look like something else.
I assume the blimp (which may have shown the lines better) wasn't in the air due to the weather!

JAS .. you seem quite combative on this subject .. I'll repeat again I wasn't on a witch hunt here (I actually had money on Kuch to win so I had no vested interest in him getting penalized or DQ'd). I was simply asking for clarification.

Even now with the excellent pictures provided by Robopz, I'm not convinced. Take the last photo Robo posted



Robo himself says this is an extreme example of how cameras distort angles. Yes, in a 2D view of it, the red line goes over the hazard, but extrapolate into the 3D world and even that picture suggest the ball path could be to the right, or at least over the top of the red stake.

Now going back to the youtube video, the ball appears to land in the water somewhere close to that little white speck on the far bank in the picture above - somewhere between the head of Kuch and his caddy. Now that tells me that the last point of crossing was somewhere to the left and slightly behind Kuch in that photo - which makes me still believe if this was indeed a valid drop then it was under the red stakes rules and not yellow. Even that different angle photo would suggest to me it was more that 2 club lengths but it looks closer than the photo I posted.

Go back to the photo I posted though (which I can now see as I'm at home .. the servimg.com pictures seem to be blocked for me at work)



In my opinion, a lot let scope for perspective distortion in that one .. and there still appears to be no part of the hazard between the drop point and the pin .. even though earlier photos and videos seem to suggest the point of entry and eventual landing place of the ball seemed to be 10-15 yards at least to the left

Had the ball landed in the far right corner of that hazard .. say somewhere near the white cap of the caddy in Robo's photo) then I wouldn't have given it a second thought

So no .. it's not a witch hunt JAS .. it's not an attempt to be an armchair referee .. it was just am attempt at understanding something I didn't get from the live TV pictures .. and even with Robo's excellent pictures I'm still not convinced. I'm not looking for any retribution (I already have a bet on Kich for ANGC this week and may increase my investment in him) - and if I might point out, even if you, or anyone else disagrees with my (and no one really has disagreed apart perhaps from SJ) .. it has atleast generated a few posts on an unnaturally quiet forum just 4 days before the first major of the year)