Rating Mike Tyson

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Most casual fans would have you believe that Mike Tyson could defeat every boxer that ever lived in one punch.

In the other hand loads of hardcore fans and historians think that anyone with a decent jab and not afraid of him would beat him.

Honestly both statements are complete rubbish. Tyson wasn't invincible but he was a damn good heavyweight and I would certainly pick him to win more than he would lose against other greats at his best. Lighter slower fighters like Louis, Marciano and Louis would all be knocked out. Ali imo is the greatest heavyweight ever but I believe a prime tyson would give even the younger Ali a tougth fight which he would probably lose in points.

Gentleman01 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:People forget too that Douglas probably doesn't beat him at any other time....

Douglas was a quitter by nature...........But in Tokyo he'd just lost his Mother and his wife was ill..He'd also fallen out with his Dad.........I imagine the terror of fighting the invincible Mike was offset by ...

1. A couldn't give a toss what happens to me attitude..

2. The need to release his frustrations..

Truly believe that Douglas went in there not believing he could win but to see how it goes for a couple of rounds and when he surprised himself with his success then he believed...

You don't always have to believe from the outset..............

Shame Tyson didn't rematch him...........Douglas couldn't have done it again..

But still a marvellous performance...........Douglas was an alltime great for one night..

Sad thing is had he trained for Holy he might have beat him too.

Douglas-Holy was a great matchup ruined by a slob.

I've read The Last Great Fight, a book dedicated to covering the build-up to, and aftermath of the Tyson-Douglas fight, and the impression I got from it was that Douglas really was in once-in-a-lifetime form where circumstances conspired to drag out of him the resolve, dedication, self-belief, and determination which he had always lacked. I think Douglas genuinely believed he could beat Tyson, and he gave absolutely everything he had in order to achieve it.

Obviously, the moment he won the crown, Douglas reverted to type and surrendered his title to Holyfield in the tamest way imaginable. Certainly, the Douglas who beat Tyson, gives Holy a helluva fight.  

good to see a mention for that book, it was fondly reviewed on the old 606, and it's a real pageturner!

milkyboy wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The younger Lewis had a lot of flaws like being open when he punched..

Chances are If steward sees how easy it is to exploit..Rooney would too.....

I'd pick Bowe/Holy and maybe Wlad to beat the younger Lewis.......

Pick the older Lewis to beat all three apart from maybe the Bowe in Holy 1....and that would be pickem..

The older Lewis did have some bad nights and I'm not talking about the kayos......Talking more about being mugged off Mercer..

You're right: Lewis leaned to his left when throwing his right hand. Steward had McCall time him -- roll with a left hook so that his head would be in the perfect position for a big right hand.

Futch had spotted it, too. I remember an interview where he highlighted how open Lewis was -- said Bowe would take his head off.

Though he did have his eyes closed. An impressive piece of timing, and highly fortuitous. The warning shots were there though and there was always a chance one of them was going to land on the button. It was a weakness, spotting it and executing it before getting sparked yourself are two different things.

He just missed with it in round one (right at the start of this clip):

https://youtu.be/nx5SRYqNEL4

I know mate. Like I said the warning shots were there. It was a plan. They saw a weakness and exploited it.

However, If you've ever tried to do any sporting activity with your eyes closed, you'll know it was still a fluke that the actual punch that knocked him out, landed. It's all very well anticipating/timing/judging distance etc but generally you use your eyes to do it. It's called hand eye coordination for a reason 

milkyboy wrote:I know mate. Like I said the warning shots were there. It was a plan. They saw a weakness and exploited it.

However, If you've ever tried to do any sporting activity with your eyes closed, you'll know it was still a fluke that the actual punch that knocked him out, landed. It's all very well anticipating/timing/judging distance etc but generally you use your eyes to do it. It's called hand eye coordination for a reason 

He closed his eyes because Lewis jabbed at his face. It wasn't a fluke that he hit him - he knew where Lennox's head was going to be. That was just sour grapes from Lewis as he sought to justify the loss.

I get that fighters throw blind shots in the general direction of their opponents heads. I've read that ingle trained guys to do it while looking at opponents feet etc.

Depends on your definition of a fluke. McCall closes his eyes and rolls away from a jab, throwing a counter hook that lewis rolls away from before swinging the right in the general direction of where he thought lewis head would be. Given the amount of movement of both fighters heads since he had his eyes opened, in my view it was lucky it landed. Many will say if you hit what you're aiming at, it isn't lucky. There's no such thing as a lucky punch etc. Fair enough if that's your outlook.

My belief is that Manny being this wonder trainer everyone wants to credit him with a genius master plan. I suspect Manny would rather his guys looked at their target. But hey I'm not a boxer I could be wide of the mark here.

I'm not defending lewis, he left himself wide open, the stoppage was fair. I don't consider him unlucky.

Tyson was a great heavy but there were some better.

He would be between 9-15 of all time heavies for me and the placing is dependent upon my mood. Very fine margins between most of these guys as they are the best of all time.

Personally feel that had Cus looked after him mentally as well as physically he would have been top three (could have taken any one of those spots) but it was his mental fragility that cost him.

He seems to be one of these guys that dream of getting to the top and will do anything to get there but once they are there they get a little lost. Like they have reached their goal and don't know how to plot another one, or maybe when they get there it isn't as they expected and they lose interest.

huw wrote:Tyson was a great heavy but there were some better.

He would be between 9-15 of all time heavies for me and the placing is dependent upon my mood. Very fine margins between most of these guys as they are the best of all time.

Personally feel that had Cus looked after him mentally as well as physically he would have been top three (could have taken any one of those spots) but it was his mental fragility that cost him.

He seems to be one of these guys that dream of getting to the top and will do anything to get there but once they are there they get a little lost. Like they have reached their goal and don't know how to plot another one, or maybe when they get there it isn't as they expected and they lose interest.

Tough achieving that level of fame at the age of 18. There aren't many teenage global icons that manage to stay sane. The entire globe was fawning all over him and so I'm not surprised he struggled for motivation (which doesn't excuse it, of course).

Johnson, Louis, Liston and Ali struggled for acceptance (and even when America finally took to Ali a formidable set of opponents presented themselves to oppose his place in history) in a manner Tyson didn't have to (I'm not saying racism had been eradicated but the 80's were a diffierent ball game to what had come before). Holyfield and Lewis were constantly overlooked and maligned by the media (working in Tyson's shadow to a degree). Holmes fought in Ali's shadow -- how far did that chip on his shoulder drive him on? Foreman lost his way only to return as a laughing stock (giving him somethign to prove). Frazier hated Ali, resulting in an almost fevered desire to crush his nemesis.

Tyson lost his desire along the way. It all became too easy for him (which cost him -- just -- against Douglas) and prison finished him as a fighter. He also lacked character, to a degree, although his toughness is underrated.

Mcall is vastly underated as a fighter. Great chin, great jab, very good speed and power, and his counter punching ability and movement are often overlooked. His only chink was his mind set, and what a chink it was.

There's a video on youtube of him giving tyson the fight of his life during a sparring session (it's easy to say 'it's only sparring' but Tyson was renowned for 'sparring hard'). Youtube search for: Mike Tyson vs Oliver Mcall.

The right hand he decked lewis with was not due to Lewis leaning to the left when throwing the right (most people do that because it transfers weight ready for the left-hook/uppercut), Lewis was decked after throwing a lead left-hook, Mcall rolled, threw a left hook of his own, caught Lewis, knocked his head left and onto his own right hand. The right lewis threw was irrelevant,  Mcall was reacting to a left hook.

Fingers, I'd always presumed the argument put forward was about anticipating the right from Lewis... He was in the process of throwing it . But how would McCall know that if he wasn't looking 

3fingers wrote:Mcall is vastly underated as a fighter. Great chin, great jab, very good speed and power, and his counter punching ability and movement are often overlooked. His only chink was his mind set, and what a chink it was.

There's a video on youtube of him giving tyson the fight of his life during a sparring session (it's easy to say 'it's only sparring' but Tyson was renowned for 'sparring hard'). Youtube search for: Mike Tyson vs Oliver Mcall.

The right hand he decked lewis with was not due to Lewis leaning to the left when throwing the right (most people do that because it transfers weight ready for the left-hook/uppercut), Lewis was decked after throwing a lead left-hook, Mcall rolled, threw a left hook of his own, caught Lewis, knocked his head left and onto his own right hand. The right lewis threw was irrelevant,  Mcall was reacting to a left hook.

Steward drilled McCall to throw that specific combination throughout training camp whenever Lewis looked to jab and throw his right (pretty much all he threw back then). The right Lewis threw wasn't irrelevant: it was trigger for McCall's own right hand.

milkyboy wrote:Fingers, I'd always presumed the argument put forward was about anticipating the right from Lewis... He was in the process of throwing it . But how would McCall know that if he wasn't looking 

He knew that when Lewis threw a left, he'd follow up with a right hand (and would lean left while doing so after dropping his left hand). Left comes out, McCall rolls with a left hook and right hand. He tries it umpteen times before it pays off.

While it's the correct thing to do, I've never heard manny say he drilled MCall to roll-left hook-right hand. Have you got a link? I'd like to read about a greatcoach teaching tactics. Cheers.

Hear him say Lewis brought his right hand back too far before throwing it and he told Oliver to throw his at the sametime

Yeah i heard the same. Some real simple but effective advice, along thd lines of "Lewis throws lots of right hands, some times leaves them hanging, beat him to the punch". Never heard him say he drilled McCall to slip the right hand, throw a left-hook, roll, then throw a right.

Looked to me in the less than two rounds the fight lasted that McCall just threw left hook right hand combinations regardless of what lewis was doing, sometimes on the counter sometimes on the front foot. Regardless to me he's throwing a blind punch in the general direction he thinks lewis head will be. It's hard enough to connect with a moving target when you're looking, so plan or no plan there's an element of luck in my eyes.

Maybe Lewis was lucky..Lucky that such a glaring weakness hadn't been exploited before.

3fingers wrote:Yeah i heard the same. Some real simple but effective advice, along thd lines of "Lewis throws lots of right hands, some times leaves them hanging, beat him to the punch". Never heard him say he drilled McCall to slip the right hand,  throw a left-hook, roll, then throw a right.

There was a great piece in BM in the aftermath titled "The Inquest". I'll fish it out tonight.

Thanks haz, sounds like a good read.