The soccerisation of rugby

Ted Griffiths wrote:People say to me, ‘what would happen if an Arab businessman bought a club and wanted to buy Dan Carter and Richie McCaw?’ and I’d say ‘great, fantastic – that’s what the league needs’

Along with the normal guff that Griffiths spouts, he's confirmed that he wants to undo all the acceptable aspects of the English game.

He'd have franchises, £4m minimum wage spends - preferably with no upper limit, more fantastical 'super games (84000 40000 more like Wembley giveaways) etc. etc..

Already this madman has moved games to Belgium in advance of fulfilling his and his and his cohorts' desire to achieve Global domination. Does that ring any mental alarm bells to anyone else?

This man (along with Wray and their South African backers) is mad, bad and dangerous to know.

If RU is to remain akin to a sport, then he and his ilk must be halted in their tracks.

Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/club-rugby/premiership-clubs-must-take-urgent-steps-to-attract-best-players-and-bigger-crowds-9223856.html

God I hope we beat them...

Portnoy I do find it quite ironic that you of all people call Edward Griffiths a madman.

Saracens played one game in Belgium whilst their new stadium was being built.

Mad,bad and dangerous? Hasn't got there yet.

Edward Griffiths and the South African backers have transformed a mid table Aviva Premiership team with no stadium to call their own into a top Aviva Premiership side with their own stadium.

Saracens fans have been desiring our own stadium for years.

They are also contributing to the England cause. The South African dominance that was feared has not materialised.

I know you'll continue to sneer at Saracens with our artificial pitch, our Wembley games and our publicity stunts. Doesn't always work but most of the time it is.

Even the style of play has been adjusted with Saracens scoring more tries.

Notch equally I hope we beat you.

I don't think it's about style of play, results or ownership of their own stadium beshocked.

Some of what Griffiths talks about I agree with. AP clubs do need to look at ways of improving as sports clubs and brands in order to grow the game as a whole. If the top tier clubs are struggling then the game cannot move on and expand and grow.

What I disagree with is the undertone from him that the solution is simply throwing money at things and that those who spent below the cap are not thinking about the game as a whole. I would imagine those spending below the cap have done so because that is all they could reasonably afford. Where would spending beyond their means get them, or the game?

Notch wrote:God I hope we beat them...

I hope Sarries win. But for strictly national reasons.

Normally, I don't give a hoot about them.

If they are currently under the cap, then I'm a Bengali.

p.s. I quite the artificial pitch. I've never said anything else about it apart from queries about its maintainability/durability.

Ozzy3123 Edward likes to speak in very grand terms, looking to reach for the stars. He's ambitious. I don't agree with everything he says but like you I agree with some of it. I probably agree with more it than you but that's just my personal feeling.

I agree it is important to make the most of the up and coming 2015 RWC to build interest in rugby. I think it's important we try different things.

Ultimately he doesn't not want the AP to be left completely overshadowed by the top 14. I sympathise with that.

I don't believe in no cap. There has to be some regulation in terms of spending. I don't see anything wrong with Edward's desire to be more global.

Edward wants Saracens to be the best - it is natural he wants aspects put in place to advance their interests.

Oh and Portnoy I hope you beat Clermont too.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I hope Sarries win. But for strictly national reasons.

I don't know PC... Ulster have more in common with Leicester than Saracens. We're teams rooted in communities, we're part of something bigger than rugby. More important than that- ultimately our teams feed into the society we're part of in a positive way. Saracens? They are just a small club that wants to be a big brand, powered by money men who know the price of everything...

Notch wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I hope Sarries win. But for strictly national reasons.

I don't know PC... Ulster have more in common with Leicester than Saracens. We're teams rooted in communities, we're part of something bigger than rugby. More important than that- ultimately our teams feed into the society we're part of in a positive way. Saracens? They are just a small club that wants to be a big brand, powered by money men who know the price of everything...

Its more than that Notch. They are just utterly classless in nearly every respect. Despite apparently having a rugby loving consortium with deep pockets behind them, they don't get what club rugby actually means.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Notch wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:I hope Sarries win. But for strictly national reasons.

I don't know PC... Ulster have more in common with Leicester than Saracens. We're teams rooted in communities, we're part of something bigger than rugby. More important than that- ultimately our teams feed into the society we're part of in a positive way. Saracens? They are just a small club that wants to be a big brand, powered by money men who know the price of everything...

Its more than that Notch.  They are just utterly classless in nearly every respect.  Despite apparently having a rugby loving consortium with deep pockets behind them, they don't get what club rugby actually means.    

And what does club rugby actually mean?

Saracens are a traditional rugby club - founded 1876 - who could easily have gone under in the professional era. They were tenants in a pretty rubbish football stadium with an unsustainably small fanbase. Their new backers recognised that they were way behind the bigger English clubs and set out to catch up quickly. They found a new stadium and tried new things to build a fanbase and bring rugby to a wider audience.

I admire what they've done on the pitch - they've created a real team spirit and an exceptionally tough defensive system, they've found some rough diamonds and made the most of them, they've turned around their academy and are producing EQPs.

Off the pitch, they are only doing what it takes to build a sustainable club. Of course it all feels a bit artificial - they've been in their new home less than a year. Give it time to settle.

There's some stuff I don't like. The naff song, for starters. I am not sure how they build the squad they've got under the salary cap, but then the auditor hasn't raised any complaints so I suppose it's OK. I'm not overly fond of Wemberlee as a venue, but I don't mind the occasional big game and it's the logical place to go for a North London club. I do mind the fact that the media go on and on about how commercially innovative Sarries are and how they're setting the standard for other clubs when the first English club to hold a big game was Quins.

The point is, not every club started from where Leicester and Ulster did. Most English clubs didn't own grounds capable of supporting professional rugby when the game turned pro. They didn't own the land, or it wasn't big enough for a stadium or they didn't have planning permission. I've not been to Sarries' traditional home, but I have been to Wasps' and London Welsh's and Richmond's and I imagine it's the same - a lovely community rugby ground but totally unsuitable for a professional matchday. Their new place is only about 8 miles from the community club, by the way, so they've returned to their roots rather than abandoned them.

Whatever the reason, they had by definition to find a new home and put down roots again. It's pretty crass to berate a club for lacking tradition and roots when it's not had the time to develop them.

Allianz is probably only about 3 miles from the Bramley Sports Ground where the community club are based. The amateur side of Sarries is a great, traditional setup - running a shedload of teams. It is a shame the pro element had to be "divorced" from the amateur in so many ways, but as someone who was coaching Colts at club when Buck Shelford was in charge I can assure you that the changes that have been made were very much needed.

It is a shame that Sarries have a cowardly, big-mouthed tool as their mouth piece, but griffiths aside Saracens have become an outstanding club.

My problem is not with the Saracens club. Far from it.
I have a great mistrust of the ownership consortium
and their business model which threatens to overturn the whole ethos of the game not only domestically but worldwide.

Soccerfication.

Thank you poor four. In regards to Quins, you were commercially innovative with Mark Evans in charge but now he's gone......

Notch you're being so unbelievably arrogant! You and hook isms and hyperbole are completely ignorant on the topic of Saracens.

Nigel Wray our chairman is a very passionate sports fan. I think he goes to practically every game. He's not your typical club owner.

Saracens do an awful lot for the community with many schemes, there's loads of participation. They even won an award for it. I think a year or two ago.

In terms of the grassroots the academy is working just fine. Most of the coaches are English bar McCall. Gustard,Sanderson and Sorrell are all ex Saracens players.

There's things that aren't great like the stupid song that Poorfour pointed out and silly gimmicks but that's not the whole story.

As for Ulster. You're no Leicester. You're just puffing out your chests because of improvements in the last few years. Something more in common with Saracens.

Gents, I understand both sides of the argument, the attack from those who dislike Saracens, and the defence and counter attack from those who do, but please let's not turn this into an Ulster v Saracens slanging match.

The 'soccerisation' of rugby was in some ways inevitable from the point the game turned professional. That is not Saracens fault. The game has moved on on regards of professionalism and hand in hand with that commercialism. It has been a slow movement, and Saracens are trying to speed to process.

I don't agree with everything they do, nor how they do it, but the game has to evolve or die, and we as fans need to accept that.

Ironic that the same people that were pro prl are against the soccerism of rugby. What do expect to happen if the balance of power and wealth is allowed accumulate in two already quite wealthy leagues where the owners, stakeholders and organisers of such leagues are interested only in their own profit.

I've got a lot of time for the team spirit Sarries have built, they really play for one another. But everything else leaves me cold.

I agree clubs need to look at ways to advance the game. But I resent it when wealthy backers/owners portray themselves as brave new pioneers because they've had the luxury of throwing money around.

The rest - the songs, the fans twiddling their fingers before a kick, I just find horribly tacky. It's snobbery of course, but a reaction to the smugness of money-men hell-bent on building a game in their image i.e. one where money wins.

On the plus side they'll be about 50% more likeable when Borthwick leaves.

It's the messianic fervour of the message that Griffiths issues that worries me, Ozzy.

I think that rugby, rugby administrators and rugby fans should not sleepwalk into a real nightmare.

The vision is at least clear in a recent article : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10714959/Saracens-ready-to-take-rugby-world-by-storm.html

Before anyone jumps to a conclusion, might I recommend that they download and watch the Hollywood sci-fi-cum-capitalistic-sports-warning 'Rollerball' from Netflix (other download sources are available). http://www.heavy.com/movies/netflix/2012/01/new-on-netflix-rollerball/

As it says in that book, "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.".
And you don't have to be a believer to understand a significant truism.

Hood83 the tacky things as you call them is just one part of the club.

Ozzy in terms of soccerisation of rugby union I am torn - I want rugby union to become more global. I want it to become more popular but then again I want it to keep it's core values. Certainly don't want there to be hooliganism like football or the tribalism that breeds hatred. In regards to attendances, profile I want to see rugby union grow but I don't want rugby clubs to be plunged into debt.

Certainly a thorny topic.

I do understand that not everything about Saracens is desirable. I am not a lap dog who blindly agrees with everything my club does, contrary to popular belief - I just feel the necessity to defend them from criticism I feel is inaccurate and based upon ignorance.

I do not agree with everything that Edward Griffiths does and says.

I understand why people have their fear of change and see Saracens as the figurehead/champion for soccerisation.

Edward Griffiths is just one man who represents Saracens.

Unfortunately though, 'shocked, Ted is not "just one man who represents Saracens".

He's the anointed CEO of the Sarries.

And judging by this discussion, he's not garnering a lot of (any(?)) wholehearted support.

Which is pleasing to me at least.

His name is Edward, not Ted. Yes he's the CEO of Saracens and important to the club but just one man. Plus we don't know how long he'll stay at the club.

On some matters I agree with Edward, on some I don't. In balance I think he's been good for Saracens. He's made some silly decisions but some I wholeheartedly applaud.

The way I see it - at least he's put his cards on the table, he's made his opinion clear even if you disagree.

We don't really know the stance of many other clubs except for perhaps Bath.

My apologies to Ted.

Yes he's made his position clear (as I noted earlier).

In the OP I said "If RU is to remain akin to a sport, then he and his ilk must be halted in their tracks.".

So Brucey Craig and other fellow-travellers of the soccerisation camp are not exempt from collateral side-swiping insults.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/7590158/Bath-bought-by-millionaire-fan-Bruce-Craig.html

He'd be a headline act at a Wemblemberg rally.

Sarries get an awful lot of unnecessary criticism and it really just smacks of a fear of change. Had Sarries remained as they were they would likely not exist now. Without any supporter base they had to implement initiatives that would build fans; clearly not all of these have worked, but many have. I am not a fan of the style, but that is purely my personal choice, perhaps born out of following an old school club this is what I've become used to. Fans of Gloucester have a huge fear of change and it can definitely be argued this has held us back.

What is important is not to confuse this criticism of Sarries with Edwards statement. I completely agree with Ozzy that for me whilst his intention is well founded, his solution of spending more money to compete is not the answer. We are never going to be on a level playing field with T14 where stadium running costs are not with the clubs. Our current system promotes stability and I far rather have that than have a few years of glory at huge risk. Whilst I am very much a club first man, I also in total support that our set up helps promote English talent and benefits the national game first and foremost. This will in turn support grass roots and club level, so in the long run it will be hugely beneficial. The current system works and works well and I don't think we should bow to the small handful of clubs that can spend freely as this will not benefit the masses.

Shame that Notch and Hookisms and Hyperbole don't have the balls to respond. You two are an embarrassment to your club in my eyes.

beshocked wrote:Shame that Notch and Hookisms and Hyperbole don't have the balls to respond. You two are an embarrassment to your club in my eyes.

Do you mean province? What did they say?

Soccerisation. Hmmm... does that mean that teams can be soccified?

HongKongCherry wrote:Sarries get an awful lot of unnecessary criticism and it really just smacks of a fear of change.  Had Sarries remained as they were they would likely not exist now.  Without any supporter base they had to implement initiatives that would build fans; clearly not all of these have worked, but many have.  I am not a fan of the style, but that is purely my personal choice, perhaps born out of following an old school club this is what I've become used to.  Fans of Gloucester have a huge fear of change and it can definitely be argued this has held us back.

What is important is not to confuse this criticism of Sarries with Edwards statement.  I completely agree with Ozzy that for me whilst his intention is well founded, his solution of spending more money to compete is not the answer.  We are never going to be on a level playing field with T14 where stadium running costs are not with the clubs.  Our current system promotes stability and I far rather have that than have a few years of glory at huge risk.  Whilst I am very much a club first man, I also in total support that our set up helps promote English talent and benefits the national game first and foremost.  This will in turn support grass roots and club level, so in the long run it will be hugely beneficial.  The current system works and works well and I don't think we should bow to the small handful of clubs that can spend freely as this will not benefit the masses.

+1 to pretty much all that.

I still remember when Gloucester decided to play music after every try scored. The lovely Gloucester supporters decided they didn't like this so the decided to boo the music. Unfortunately that day Gloucester destroyed whatever team they were playing and the crowd ended up booing quite a lot whenever Gloucester scored one of their many tries. It was very assuming.

This is what Notch said:

I don't know PC... Ulster have more in common with Leicester than Saracens. We're teams rooted in communities, we're part of something bigger than rugby. More important than that- ultimately our teams feed into the society we're part of in a positive way. Saracens? They are just a small club that wants to be a big brand, powered by money men who know the price of everything...


Hookisms and hyperbole:

Its more than that Notch. They are just utterly classless in nearly every respect. Despite apparently having a rugby loving consortium with deep pockets behind them, they don't get what club rugby actually means.


I just find it ignorant. Notch in particular has been ranting and raving like a rabid dog out for blood - in his anger at Saracens.

beshocked wrote:
I just find it ignorant. Notch in particular has been ranting and raving like a rabid dog out for blood - in his anger at Saracens.

Actually I've been as restrained as it's reasonable to be without changing my opinion or not expressing it for fear of what people might say or think. I don't go looking for fights and I try to be impartial so I have avoided commentating on Saracens as much as possible. But if you're mature enough to not take this as a personal sleight;

I don't like Saracens. If we win, I'll still not like them and if we lose the same. I don't like what they represent in terms of a club thats more about the bottom line and branding than representing a community and a sense of local pride and identity, and thats why I couldn't be bothered with this kind of thread. The reasons I love rugby are the reasons I don't like Saracens and the reasons I'm not in love with the modern game as much as I could be, as it becomes more and more driven by commercial priorities over sporting ones. If I go around saying things like that it'll only descend into pointless name-calling nine times out of ten so I don't bother.

Am I angry? As a rugby fan, I'm pretty angry at people like Ed Griffiths and Mourad Boudjellal who are capable of doing untold damage to the sport. But I don't go around shouting about it at every opportunity. I don't really see the point in arguing about it- if you disagree, you disagree. I'm not angry at Saracens or you. I'm entitled to my opinions and if you're getting exercised about the fact I have a different opinion to you- well... best just step away from the keyboard and get some perspective!

Munster fans love preaching to the world how Leinster isnt a team rooted in community spirit and all the usual sh1t so I know where you are coming from.

I think the issue might not be so much be with the club, its histroy and triditions but with Griffith's brash personality and concerning vision for the game in England.

He unquestionably rubs people up the wrong way in pursuit of his ideals. He reminds me of Michael O'Leary in how he goes for the jugular and perhaps to a lesser extent Sarries no frills approach on the pitch.

Notch the problem is your view point is based upon ignorance.

I have been guilty of ignorance on occasions too. I believe that people can come to more rational conclusions if educated. I believe I have.

Some viewpoints should not be accepted as just agreeing to disagree.

How does hatred help anyone? There's no point you holding in your hatred. May as well vent it - get it out of your system.

I do not accept your hatred of Saracens as rational. Your grasp of the topic seems to be non existent.

Perhaps it would help if you list everything you hate about Saracens and I will answer you.

beshocked wrote:
Perhaps it would help if you list everything you hate about Saracens and I will answer you.

I could do that, but then as a mod I would have to delete the entire discussion for being sinfully boring to everyone including myself!   

Look. I don't 'hate' Saracens. I 'hate' what I feel the people running the club represent. I wish Mark McCall great success as a former Ulster player and I have no ill will towards the players or fans. There is no 'hatred' to hold in. So alleging that I 'hate' Saracens isn't fair and it seems to be a conclusion you've reached based on a post I made on another thread, in which I probably used that word unwisely but I never said I feel that way- when you say hate the individual not the club, you're actually much closer to how I do actually feel.

It's true if I had grown up as a Saracens fan I wouldn't be a Saracens fan now, because of the way things have developed there. But framing my feelings towards everyone associated with Saracens as being hateful isn't entirely fair or accurate.

Send it to me in a PM then.

Well actually my opinion is based on more than one post. You claiming that Saracens are the most hated club in rugby and that it is forbidden for you to lose. You also made a jibe about Saracens only having two fans.

Edward Griffiths is not Saracens, he's one individual. He's not the players,coaches or fans.

You also think Toulon and Saracens are one and the same. They are definitely not. So many differences. Mourad and Edward are not joined at the hip. Toulon opposed the PRL in the European discussion.

Just compare recruitment policy of Toulon and Saracens. The only thing similar actually is that they both have wealthy backers.

You know, I probably used the word hate too loosely when I said 'single most hated club/brand in rugby'- I was being flippant. I didn't have a single clue why you were up on your high horse about 'hate' this and that until I read that comment back.

I don't know many rugby fans who could be said to 'hate' another team which is a big part of the reason the game is so wonderful to support. I don't know many fans who could be said to like or feel neutral about Saracens either, but thats a different thing. Undoubtedly the way the club is run makes victory taste sweeter and defeat more bitter for some people. But I've already explained that that doesn't extend to the actual people who support, play and coach the club.

Hate is probably a word best used to describe motivations for unprovoked verbal, physical and psychological violence. It's not used for jibes and jokes. Dislike and hate are NOT the same thing. We use the word love casually (oh you love those curtains? Really?) we use the word hate overly casually too. Really what you say is hate from me is actually just disliking. I used it overly loosely, that was my mistake here, don't commit the same sin.

As for being forbidden to lose... we're playing at home at Ravenhill. Of course it is! Thats what playing at Ravenhill in a home quarter-final means to us. Your guys don't even come into it!

Look, you can either accept this is how I feel... or waste more of your time and mine based on a misinterpretation of an admittedly careless and poorly thought through comment. You don't seem to be reading my posts because I've addressed your points already. Thats it from me in terms of this discussion goes. It's going around in circles.

Notch wrote:It's true if I had grown up as a Saracens fan I wouldn't be a Saracens fan now, because of the way things have developed there. But framing my feelings towards everyone associated with Saracens as being hateful isn't entirely fair or accurate.

Your first sentence suggests to me that:

a) You understand nothing about what has been developed at Saracens
b) You have no interest in reading or understanding the posts of people who try to explain (I do not include Beshocked in this as unless people quote him I have no idea what he has written)

Please note that I hate very, very few people, but Edward Griffiths is one of those. This is because of the way he sacked people I knew and liked, but was too cowardly to do it face to face. However I admire Saracens as a Club and for what they have achieved on and off the field. There is a reason they have won a number of "Community Spirit" awards. I may disagree with some of their vision, but that does not tarnish all the good they have done.


PS very sorry but as to your second sentence, you have given me the impression that you hate Saracens as an entity with posts made in recent days.

LondonTiger wrote:
PS very sorry but as to your second sentence, you have given me the impression that you hate Saracens as an entity with posts made in recent days.

(Sigh) It's fortunate I am here to disabuse you of that impression then. I'm sure I'll meet some Saracens fans at the game tomorrow. If I hated them, if we as Ulster fans 'hated' them, then they probably wouldn't be able to mix in with us so well. I'll shake their hand if they win the game. Not a gesture of hate.

I'm not apologising for refusing to engage in a detailed debate about this, as I believe its a waste of time. Not just my time either!

Thank you Londontiger.  

As for your opinion on Edward Griffiths - I understand why you might feel that way. My view on Edward is different but it doesn't make mine any more significant than yours.

Notch I'll accept that you made poorly chosen comments. I just don't feel you know enough about the topic to come to some of the conclusions you have.

I am sure you do not - but you have written more than one statement to suggest you do. Just saying.

It is actually your unwillingness to try and understand the progress Saracens have made that depresses me.

beshocked wrote:
Notch I'll accept that you made poorly chosen comments. I just don't feel you know enough about the topic to come to some of the conclusions you have.

To be frank, you have no idea about what I do or do not know. How could you, unless you were inside my head?

Wait... you're not... inside my head... are you? I didn't mean to visit those websites, I just clicked on a pop-up thats all it was I swear!   

Well from what you've said it doesn't seem that you know much about Saracens. Anyway we are going round in circles agreed. I'll make this the last comment to you then.

As for Londontiger I get the distinct impression he has put me on his ignore list. Shame.

Why have we conflated the "soccerisation of rugby" and Sarries?

I have no problem with how Sarries have been turned around, but I disagree massively with Griffiths' quote in the initial post. They are two separate issues, though.

For what it's worth, I think that Saracens have pulled quite a few publicity stunts that I think are naff and embarrassing. But, as an Ulster fan, I also think that of my home team - I wish they'd stop with the "inspirational" videos. Not keen. Nor on the music played after tries.

I feel more than a little sorry for 'shocked in this thread. He's apparently the only v2 poster who has at least something good to say about old Teddy. But even then, it's with qualifications.

These are the good things I'll say about the Sarries:
Yes, they have built an exceptionally good side.
Yes, they have invested in a playing surface which will likely provide some climate/weather-proofing against bad winters - a lead which I hope others will follow.
Yes, they have striven to develop a fine academy and a supply of English players to the English cause.
Yes, they have built/developed a fine community network.
Yes, are trying to 'grow' the game in many of their ventures.

I can't believe Saracens are being singled out here. Surely its the Top14 that is going the soccer route.

There are now so many similarities between the Top 14 and premier league.

Yeah, I apologise, it wasn't so much about Saracens being singled out as being followed around from thread to thread by an angry Saracens fan! Hopefully it's sorted out now.

Unfortunately thats somewhat diverted a few different threads.

Can I say whilst I disagree with the Sarries chairman, it's a bit far to slag off their club as a small man's club. It has a rich history, apparently really looks after its players and is trying to build a team with some talent from the academy too.

I'm not, I'm not sure that anyone here is, slagging off the Saracens club per se, CJ.

It's the current owners, the executives and the business objectives which are open to criticism.

Equally some of the T14 sides should be subjected to bitter protest although over in France the fact is that the horse has already bolted.

But that does not mean we should open the stable doors over here.

Oh we absolutely shouldn't.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:It's the current owners, the executives and the business objectives which are open to criticism.

Some, not all.

Some. Many?

Lots of contentious rubbish (my word) has been espoused.

The soccerisation of European rugby is inevitable now. Only Ireland has successfully emulated the far superior southern hemisphere model. But they're one small country with little influence. And it's far to late for England and France to change their setup. France and England will take European rugby down the soccer route. In fact like Portnoy said the horse has long ago bolted in France. And both the domestic and international games will suffer.

Think the International scene is still the priority here, mate

ChequeredJersey wrote:Think the International scene is still the priority here, mate

Until the PRL get enough power to bring it down!

Someone mentioned Ielands ability to replicate the SH, I disagree slightly as I think they have replicated the GAA more and built on the back of that. Also from a slighlty more neutral view Ulster and Sarries are in a avery similar mould, as in they both reconstructed the clubs with new money, bought in top quality and built strong squads off the back of that.

Not a lot of people considering how Ed's words aren't just his own but an echo of a dozen or so powerfull figures in this small european community of rugby union!! How scared are Wales, Scotland and ITaly right now?!