New South African Race Quota

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article Link : http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2014/04/07/hard-line-taken-on-white-sport

Looks like the current 50/50 quota of black and white players has been increased to 60% black, 40% white for the 'Boks, effective immediately.

As somebody who doesn't follow southern rugby to the same extent as northern, I have no idea if this will make a genuine difference? Will it effect the team?

Is it a positive move, or reverse discrimination?

Out of curiosity there are >600k adult rugby players in SA. What % are non-white does anyone know? What are the breakdown of the squads in the S15.

On the quota stuff even Mbeki said a few years ago that the govt had failed in resourcing the schools etc to increase the level of participation so clearly this is a knee jerk quick fix reaction from the more bullish within the government.

I would have sympathy with both views. I think there exists inertia within SARFU to change so it is also incorrect to say this is completely wrong. The SARFU have needed to be pushed a lot and probably need a little bit more persuasion.

Quotas are condecending, no sir, I don't like it.

Positive discrimination is just that, discrimination. And it’s proclaimed medium/long term benefits (at the price of short-term considerations) are just not logical. How can changing the system from the top down be more long-term (and permanent) than changing from the grass-roots – just muddled thinking. Encourage grass-roots participation throughout the nation and you’ll eventually reach a more integrated (and impressive) national side AND have a system that will always last.

One of the unintended consequences will be drive promising young white players to the NH to qualify via 3 years residency.

Brilliant - not

Think of how strong the NH squads will become, a win win for them

I have a mate (in fact I have many mates who this anecdote would ring true of)... let's call him Sipho - his Grandmother was a domestic at a white farm, no education. His mother was educated under a system which effectively prepared black people for a life of manual labour - and he now goes to school 40km away, catching the train, which is as consistent as the Irish national team, goes home to a home powered by paraffin, and doesn't have the financial means to afford help in subjects where hes lacking... If someone doesn't step in, and attempt to redress the issue, where does the cycle end?

It's all good and well saying the cream rises, but rugby is an expensive sport... in a country where the average white family makes SIX times more than they're black counterparts. They won't implement this, but the "reverse discrimination" argument doesn't hold water, and at the risk of generalizing, shows an embarrasing lack of knowledge.

Also, those comments are embarrassing but fall in line with my experiences of the the average S.A. rugby fan

Agree..its merely about taking shortcuts to address the anomoly because all other efforts are not working fast enough. Starting at grass roots is all very well but also has the look of hiding the issue- keeping it away from the problem, and obviously, takes much more time and effort to have any impact, none of which is guaranteed.

Having 60% right now has such an immediate and dramatic effect that huge forces are in play- the sink or swim attitude, the risk of losing the sport altogether. This is what they want.

Its still brought on by the old regime- I mean they were excluded from caring about Bok rugby for a century...why should they care about it now- not in line with Mandelas thinking but now its about taking practical rather than visionary, conciliatory steps to effect change.

For them its more about the impression SA has on the international stage, not the winning.

I very much doubt it is about a public perception to the international world, it is election time and a way to deflect focus on their inadequacies at national level.

Biltong wrote:Think of how strong the NH squads will become, a win win for them

Mate, I grew up watching great Springbok sides- always a massive challenge to beat them, a massive thrill when we did. I don't want to see an Ireland team stocked with South Africans beat a team that is weaker than it should be for political reasons. It would be a very hollow victory compared to some of the ones we've had in the past.

It makes me sad that for us to watch quality SH players, people miss out on watching the same in their home country.

I want test rugby to have strong teams, and the two traditional superpowers I hope stay strong in the face of Europeans waving fat wallets at their players. If European club rugby continues sucking up more SH talent to the point when those sides become weaker it will be a terrible thing for the global game.

Taylorman wrote:
For them its more about the impression SA has on the international stage, not the winning.

I wish I was that optimistic- it smacks of 'We don't know how to address this problem, at all, but this might win a few votes and keep the gravy trains rolling on!"

if you really think the average voter will change their vote because of a ruling on a sport they dont care about which is on a channel they can't afford... Right.

It seems you have an issue with the way I see this, why don't you spell it out for me.

I was actually responding to the post above - but I have no issue taking this up with you.


- We both know this won't be implemented. Its electioneering, and as far as cheap vote acquisitions go, is much more palatable than the DA's frankly embarrassing pretense of caring about cities they saw no issues with giving open toilets.
- 60/40, as I'm sure you're well aware, is still miles away from from a general population spread.

- Either way, I don't care.

Shouldn't players get picked on ability and not race, colour, gender, religion, etc? Happens all the time in organisations, but that doesn't mean that it is okay.

What about the SA football team, do they have a fair representation of white/boer people?

When it comes to sport I do care.

I care about the development of sport the right way, it irks me that government is not building facilities at schools, the fact that not only rugby, but all sport is being neglected by the government but yet they have a lot to say about something they do nothing about.

South Africa is a sporting mad nation, you can walk into any shopping centre anywhere and you will see Indian kids in Protea kit, you'll see the guy at the robot selling his wares whilst wearing a Springbok jersey, when we have a "wear your national team's jersey day" everyone wears them, when the Soccer World cup was on every, Everyone, no matter their background had South African flags on their mirrors, roofs, patio's, balcony's you name it.

When the Junior Boks won the trophy in 2012 the whole country was proud, same with the African Cup of Nations, the RWC, you can go on and on about how sport has been the one aspect of our daily lives that has been a unifier.

It has everything to do with pride, you don't build pride by marginalizing the achievements of those who have attained their national colours by merit by having enforced quotas on national squads.

Speak to Breyten Paulse, Brian Habana, Siya Kolisi or any other player of colour who has worn the Green and Gold, they want to make the team because they earn it.

No player wants to be in a team when he knows his teammates think someone else deserves the spot.

It undermines every value you learn as a sportsman.

I don't care about politics, who is on the gravy train, who is corrupt, how underhanded deals are creating millionaires overnight in SA.

But I do care about our sport.

Believe it or not - yes... the vice captain of the football team is white. Through the 2000s, white South Africans made up a larger portion of national players than is their percentage of the general population.

Also, looking at the starting XI in the last few matches - the football squad generally represents a fair spreadsheet, with black players actually under represented in the last match.

Biltong wrote:I very much doubt it is about a public perception to the international world, it is election time and a way to deflect focus on their inadequacies at national level.

Hole in one - spot on

Biltong wrote:When it comes to sport I do care.

I care about the development of sport the right way, it irks me that government is not building facilities at schools, the fact that not only rugby, but all sport is being neglected by the government but yet they have a lot to say about something they do nothing about.

South Africa is a sporting mad nation, you can walk into any shopping centre anywhere and you will see Indian kids in Protea kit, you'll see the guy at the robot selling his wares whilst wearing a Springbok jersey, when we have a "wear your national team's jersey day" everyone wears them, when the Soccer World cup was on every, Everyone, no matter their background had South African flags on their mirrors, roofs, patio's, balcony's you name it.

When the Junior Boks won the trophy in 2012 the whole country was proud, same with the African Cup of Nations, the RWC, you can go on and on about how sport has been the one aspect of our daily lives that has been a unifier.

It has everything to do with pride, you don't build pride by marginalizing the achievements of those who have attained their national colours by merit by having enforced quotas on national squads.

Speak to Breyten Paulse, Brian Habana, Siya Kolisi or any other player of colour who has worn the Green and Gold, they want to make the team because they earn it.

No player wants to be in a team when he knows his teammates think someone else deserves the spot.

It undermines every value you learn as a sportsman.

I don't care about politics, who is on the gravy train, who is corrupt, how underhanded deals are creating millionaires overnight in SA.

But I do care about our sport.

I agree with both points.

The point here is you have a disconnect. Those presumably in power politically don't see rugby as important from either their personal nor political point of view.

Those who want rugby to stay the way it is just want politics to stay out of it.

But the countries administrators of the past has made that impossible. This situation has been created primarily due to that past.

Biltong you might not like the politics and intrusions of the current government but that pales into insignificance in comparison with how generations of non whites must have felt about the policies and particularly intrusions of generations of their families.

By focussing on sport in the concept of the argument you make a stand, have a good point, but are naive to think something like this wouldn't be an someones agenda, and that somehow it would just go away- or even be handled fairly. Thats the whole point of this- to rock the foundation from the top, show its people no stones will be unturned. Andwhile being critical of badly formed policy and legislation is a good thing, past governments havnt set a good standard and have possibly had amongst the poorest creators of legislation and policy of all time, so its not as if they're making history there either.

I could understand this at national level as would give greater numbers a chance of competing but at international level you want to win for national pride. This would only affect 14 players but could do great damage to SA rugby.

Sports and politics are unfortunately interlinked - the past government saw to that. Poor Basil d'Oliviera, possibly one of the greatest cricketers of colour in the apartheid era (possibly added for obvious reasons) has had his posthumous honouring at Newlands stonewalled by the coloured cricketing community. Confusing? Yes... but such is life navigating through the maze that is S.A. life.

RFU and other sports bodies should ban any country that picks its players based on race or religion. This sort of thing is unacceptable in the modern world.

I understand the past, I am ashamed of our past, but just I I can do nothing about the past, I can do nothing about the present, except say my piece.

We can justify correcting the past by saying it is OK to reverse the racism that took place in the past, but I can tell you now, we can't fix the past, we can only f... Up the future.

Taylorman wrote:

Biltong wrote:When it comes to sport I do care.

I care about the development of sport the right way, it irks me that government is not building facilities at schools, the fact that not only rugby, but all sport is being neglected by the government but yet they have a lot to say about something they do nothing about.

South Africa is a sporting mad nation, you can walk into any shopping centre anywhere and you will see Indian kids in Protea kit, you'll see the guy at the robot selling his wares whilst wearing a Springbok jersey, when we have a "wear your national team's jersey day" everyone wears them, when the Soccer World cup was on every, Everyone, no matter their background had South African flags on their mirrors, roofs, patio's, balcony's you name it.

When the Junior Boks won the trophy in 2012 the whole country was proud, same with the African Cup of Nations, the RWC, you can go on and on about how sport has been the one aspect of our daily lives that has been a unifier.

It has everything to do with pride, you don't build pride by marginalizing the achievements of those who have attained their national colours by merit by having enforced quotas on national squads.

Speak to Breyten Paulse, Brian Habana, Siya Kolisi or any other player of colour who has worn the Green and Gold, they want to make the team because they earn it.

No player wants to be in a team when he knows his teammates think someone else deserves the spot.

It undermines every value you learn as a sportsman.

I don't care about politics, who is on the gravy train, who is corrupt, how underhanded deals are creating millionaires overnight in SA.

But I do care about our sport.

I agree with both points.

The point here is you have a disconnect. Those presumably in power politically don't see rugby as important from either their personal nor political point of view.

Those who want rugby to stay the way it is just want politics to stay out of it.

But the countries administrators of the past has made that impossible. This situation has been created primarily due to that past.

Biltong you might not like the politics and intrusions of the current government but that pales into insignificance in comparison with how generations of non whites must have felt about the policies and particularly intrusions of generations of their families.

By focussing on sport in the concept of the argument you make a stand, have a good point, but are naive to think something like this wouldn't be an someones agenda, and that somehow it would just go away- or even be handled fairly. Thats the whole point of this- to rock the foundation from the top, show its people no stones will be unturned. Andwhile being critical of badly formed policy and legislation is a good thing, past governments havnt set a good standard and have possibly had amongst the poorest creators of legislation and policy of all time, so its not as if they're making history there either.

The sports policies of the former regime led to SA being banned from sport. If the new regime insist on race based selection then again SA should be banned. Selection should be on sporting grounds.

Let me put it in another way, if they F... Up sport in this country, then there is nothing left for me to care about in SA.

It is too late for me to leave, but I will make sure my son leaves when he is old enough.

Right and wrong is a matter of perspective.

Funny how the RFU didn't find it strange that they kept facing an all white team in the foot of Africa for nearly 90 years.

Kingraf, that is the past. Do you want SA to make the same mistakes as in the past?(limited due to accident of birth) Or do you want SA to be the best it can with no limits due to accident of birth?
One question raised but not answered is what is the % split of active players?What % of active players are Black/White/Mixed?

Exiledinborders wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Biltong wrote:When it comes to sport I do care.

I care about the development of sport the right way, it irks me that government is not building facilities at schools, the fact that not only rugby, but all sport is being neglected by the government but yet they have a lot to say about something they do nothing about.

South Africa is a sporting mad nation, you can walk into any shopping centre anywhere and you will see Indian kids in Protea kit, you'll see the guy at the robot selling his wares whilst wearing a Springbok jersey, when we have a "wear your national team's jersey day" everyone wears them, when the Soccer World cup was on every, Everyone, no matter their background had South African flags on their mirrors, roofs, patio's, balcony's you name it.

When the Junior Boks won the trophy in 2012 the whole country was proud, same with the African Cup of Nations, the RWC, you can go on and on about how sport has been the one aspect of our daily lives that has been a unifier.

It has everything to do with pride, you don't build pride by marginalizing the achievements of those who have attained their national colours by merit by having enforced quotas on national squads.

Speak to Breyten Paulse, Brian Habana, Siya Kolisi or any other player of colour who has worn the Green and Gold, they want to make the team because they earn it.

No player wants to be in a team when he knows his teammates think someone else deserves the spot.

It undermines every value you learn as a sportsman.

I don't care about politics, who is on the gravy train, who is corrupt, how underhanded deals are creating millionaires overnight in SA.

But I do care about our sport.

I agree with both points.

The point here is you have a disconnect. Those presumably in power politically don't see rugby as important from either their personal nor political point of view.

Those who want rugby to stay the way it is just want politics to stay out of it.

But the countries administrators of the past has made that impossible. This situation has been created primarily due to that past.

Biltong you might not like the politics and intrusions of the current government but that pales into insignificance in comparison with how generations of non whites must have felt about the policies and particularly intrusions of generations of their families.

By focussing on sport in the concept of the argument you make a stand, have a good point, but are naive to think something like this wouldn't be an someones agenda, and that somehow it would just go away- or even be handled fairly. Thats the whole point of this- to rock the foundation from the top, show its people no stones will be unturned. Andwhile being critical of badly formed policy and legislation is a good thing, past governments havnt set a good standard and have possibly had amongst the poorest creators of legislation and policy of all time, so its not as if they're making history there either.

The sports policies of the former regime led to SA being banned from sport. If the new regime insist on race based selection then again SA should be banned.  Selection should be on sporting grounds.

Exactly, it should be a consideration, though its possible some countries may cut SA some slack with this one as there is a perceived inherent difference between legislating on colour to keep an entire race in the 3rd world in all walks of life- sport being one the world can have a say on, and trying to include people as a fast track to fairness and equal contribution.

You don't quite get it... black families make almost half as much as the next race group, and SIX times less than white families. Also have the poorest quality of education, not to mention being forced, by virtue of the market, to learn, and do business in their fourth, fifth, sixth language. This is before we discuss the fact they are products of parents who were educated by an oppressive system in which even the education system was designed to oppress... Black children are born with limited opportunities as a result of the past.

Kingraf, your issue is economic development and empowerment, not how many Africans play for the Springboks, it is an entirely different issue.

Putting 9 Africans in the Springbok team is not going to solve the issue you are talking about.

kingraf wrote:You don't quite get it... black families make almost half as much as the next race group, and SIX times less than white families. Also have the poorest quality of education, not to mention being forced,  by virtue of the market, to learn, and do business in their fourth, fifth, sixth language. This is before we discuss the fact they are products of parents who were educated by an oppressive system in which even the education system was designed to oppress... Black children are born with limited opportunities as a result of the past.

yes thats right. That past is still well and truly embedded into the present. There are so many obstacles to hurdle other than just setting the legislation right.

Think of all those families today and all the stories they have to tell, to pass down to their young. Each will have parents or ancestors with largely terrible memories, of suffering, poverty, lost family members- stories that the outer world never even knew about. etc. Future generations can't be built on that sort of foundation easily, hence the need to fast track anything that might bring hope in a real, day to day sense, Thats the driver here, not necessarily whether its actually good legislation. Its about being seen to be doing something... anything.

Race or colour shouldn't come into it. Biltong is right. its about Government - or SARFU ? responsibility to encourage young people to play rugby amongst all the diverse communities of South Africa, so that the best young sports people from all communities have the opportunity to play sport for their country at the highest level. Its got to be about elite youth player identification and development, not quotas. Maybe to redress the current imbalance prioritise more in identifying and developing emerging young black players ?

Biltong wrote:Let me put it in another way, if they F... Up sport in this country, then there is nothing left for me to care about in SA.

It is too late for me to leave, but I will make sure my son leaves when he is old enough.

Its been a pet interest of mine for some time so that's why I go on about it. Its not your place to defend SA in the past but I do agree with the leaving thing in a way. I'd fully expected SA to get much worse before it gets better- mainly because of the managed way that De Klerk ? and Mandela eased out apartheid. Their actions saved many, many lives, but it feels like from afar the pot never really boiled over as you see in other 'takeovers' which is what this really was.

Besides, you're more in the company of us Kiwi's, the Ozzies and the NH folk so there's three that would love to have you and who knows- you're son could be doing the haka for real one day!  

Taylorman wrote:

Biltong wrote:Let me put it in another way, if they F... Up sport in this country, then there is nothing left for me to care about in SA.

It is too late for me to leave, but I will make sure my son leaves when he is old enough.

Its been a pet interest of mine for some time so that's why I go on about it. Its not your place to defend SA in the past but I do agree with the leaving thing in a way. I'd fully expected SA to get much worse before it gets better- mainly because of the managed way that De Klerk ? and Mandela eased out apartheid. Their actions saved many, many lives, but it feels like from afar the pot never really boiled over as you see in other 'takeovers' which is what this really was.

Besides, you're more in the company of us Kiwi's, the Ozzies and the NH folk so there's three that would love to have you and who knows- you're son could be doing the haka for real one day!  

Too late for me mate, I have never considered leaving SA, I am almost 50, no time to start over elsewhere.

Biltong - like I said. In S.A. sports and socioeconomic matters are interlinked. Its unfortunate, but if we accept that sports played a role in nation building (and of course separating) during both the apartheid years, and the infancy of democracy, then it stands to reason that there is reasoning to this.

I've never really seen colour supporting a sport. My favorite tennis player is Nadal. Favorite boxers are Sergio Martinez and Manny Pac. Played rugby at high school, made some fantastic memories.

I wouldn't want this implemented, but that doesn't mean it's without merit.

Biltong wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Biltong wrote:Let me put it in another way, if they F... Up sport in this country, then there is nothing left for me to care about in SA.

It is too late for me to leave, but I will make sure my son leaves when he is old enough.

Its been a pet interest of mine for some time so that's why I go on about it. Its not your place to defend SA in the past but I do agree with the leaving thing in a way. I'd fully expected SA to get much worse before it gets better- mainly because of the managed way that De Klerk ? and Mandela eased out apartheid. Their actions saved many, many lives, but it feels like from afar the pot never really boiled over as you see in other 'takeovers' which is what this really was.

Besides, you're more in the company of us Kiwi's, the Ozzies and the NH folk so there's three that would love to have you and who knows- you're son could be doing the haka for real one day!  

Too late for me mate, I have never considered leaving SA, I am almost 50, no time to start over elsewhere.

I'm kind of the same- 51 last month. Funny thing is I know many leaving for Oz around my age (and obviously younger). My brother is 49 and he's leaving for Brisbane (for good) in less than 4 weeks- he blames the 10 months of the year rain here (bit of a drama queen with that one) and my sister's been there for 4 years now. And none of us thought we'd ever leave Auckland...

Difference I suppose is despite having real differences its very similar, just bigger, better (in some things) and warmer.

kingraf wrote:Biltong - like I said. In S.A. sports and socioeconomic matters are interlinked. Its unfortunate, but if we accept that sports played a role in nation building (and of course separating)  during both the apartheid years, and the infancy of democracy, then it stands to reason that there is reasoning to this.

I've never really seen colour supporting a sport. My favorite tennis player is Nadal. Favorite boxers are Sergio Martinez and Manny Pac. Played rugby at high school, made some fantastic memories.

I wouldn't want this implemented, but that doesn't mean it's without merit.

Yeah that was my point as well. It may or may not work and its a bit desperate (but you'd expect that to be the case).

My comment on the past influencing future generations stems from the fact that SA's non whites should have had lawyers, doctors, politicians, teachers, a middle and upper class, Springboks, amputee athletes, golfers, nobel prize winners, platinum record sellers, movie directors, academy award winners, nurses as well as people in careers across the norm of society. For a hundred years they were denied most of this and now have to make up for it. That they may be making rash decisions now given all this power I think is totally understandable, but they're simply in a hurry to catch up what they've missed out on.

Taylorman wrote:

kingraf wrote:Biltong - like I said. In S.A. sports and socioeconomic matters are interlinked. Its unfortunate, but if we accept that sports played a role in nation building (and of course separating)  during both the apartheid years, and the infancy of democracy, then it stands to reason that there is reasoning to this.

I've never really seen colour supporting a sport. My favorite tennis player is Nadal. Favorite boxers are Sergio Martinez and Manny Pac. Played rugby at high school, made some fantastic memories.

I wouldn't want this implemented, but that doesn't mean it's without merit.

Yeah that was my point as well. It may or may not work and its a bit desperate (but you'd expect that to be the case).

My comment on the past influencing future generations stems from the fact that SA's non whites should have had lawyers, doctors, politicians, teachers, a middle and upper class, Springboks, amputee athletes, golfers, nobel prize winners, platinum record sellers, movie directors, academy award winners, nurses as well as people in careers across the norm of society. For a hundred years they were denied most of this and now have to make up for it. That they may be making rash decisions now given all this power I think is totally understandable, but they're simply in a hurry to catch up what they've missed out on.

SA GDP per capita is in the same bracket than say most latin americas country... That could mean that all the nice above career paths would only be made available to a minority be it black or white or based on anything. The majority of the population will not get access to decent free education.
So you can take out the wealth from one minority and create another one it wont change the overall picture. You will still get people leaving in townships or favelas.
Doesnt mean that the wealth shouldnt be redistributed though...I am a pro equal opportunities but we shouldnt kid ourselves.
Sorry it's bit off topic.

Per-capita or not is missing the point. Are there quotas in England for lads who didn't attend public schools to help redress the imbalance towards less privileged kids? Is there a quota for Tauiwi or pakeha in NZ? Do the Irish have quotas across the north and south? Is there a quota system in operation for lions selections?

It's simply the wrong place to apply this sort of "logic". You can't right an historical wrong with another wrong of exactly the same nature.

It's appalling in this day and age and will be a travesty if it is put into action.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Per-capita or not is missing the point. Are there quotas in England for lads who didn't attend public schools to help redress the imbalance towards less privileged kids? Is there a quota for Tauiwi or pakeha in NZ? Do the Irish have quotas across the north and south? Is there a quota system in operation for lions selections?

It's simply the wrong place to apply this sort of "logic". You can't right an historical wrong with another wrong of exactly the same nature.

It's appalling in this day and age and will be a travesty if it is put into action.

That's exactly the point GE, this Government believes they can, and travesty has exited there up till now...so whats new? Using overseas models for this scenario is completely missing the point. This is unique.

Look - it's easy to sit in your manufactured ivory towers and cast stones. That's fine, but it doesn't change the reality.

1) White South Africans still live comfortably above anyone else in the country. This isn't a matter of social classes which have a racial spreadsheet, serendipitously, but rather the product of a social system which intentionally divided race groups. Any other comparison, falls before it garners any legs.

2) More importantly, imo. Even the NZRU found no issue with touring South Africa and not wandering why a lily-white team seems to be the conveyor belt year in year out. It's easy to forget that 15 years ago, SARU tried to block an investigation into the lack of black players coming through. Saru also allowed the joke which transpired in Border where a buy out led to a district which had a black majority in terms of players suddenly having 98% white players, 86% of which weren't even from the district. Saru has at best, been a silent player in all this, at worst, been compliant in ensuring black players weren't and aren't afforded these opportunities. Did any of you boycott springbok matches in the late 90s I gather?

At the end of the day we will all see things from a different perspective, we have different backgrounds and therefor our views and opinions will be diverse.

I will just say one last thing. The responsibility of changing the landscape of South Africa lies in the hands of government, they have the money and the power, if they don't get their act together and continue with their manner of not being accountable, nothing will change, no matter quotas or any other measure to force change.

You can still become a permanent resident of NZ up until you are 55. There is not retirement age, so a good profession and anyone can make it in NZ.

rainbow-warrior wrote:You can still become a permanent resident of NZ up until you are 55.  There is not retirement age, so a good profession and anyone can make it in NZ.  

With our currency I would be able to buy a small house and then still have to work till I am 95.

I have never really checked the requirements to emigrate, so I am clueless as to how it works.

Besides, I have just bought a small holding and are going to move under the radar. Off grid and low profile.

Never been to New Zealand. Sounds a lovely place. Only place I'd leave S.A. for is Bavaria.

Look, at days end, disagreeing isn't a bad thing. Every view has its merits, and the challenge is making the essential concessions that leads to progress, at the most painless way possible.

kingraf wrote:Never been to New Zealand. Sounds a lovely place. Only place I'd leave S.A. for is Bavaria.

Lived in Bavaria, great place. Liked Tyrol as a place to live as well. There's a real advantage to being a kiwi (and probably a Saffer or Aussie) as nobody quiet knows how to put you in a box.

Biltong wrote:I don't know how they are going to do it, the problem is that a very, very small percentage of Africans play rugby, hence you are going to struggle to put out a strong squad of them.

Presumably there is a much larger percentage of "Africans" in SA than whites. Is that the case? If so will a day come some day where there may be race quotas to boost white numbers? Can you ever see that happening?

NFL in america for example has gone from a fairly white dominated sport to very much a mixed one. Until recently there were very few black quarterbacks or coaches. If the population of Africans in the US was bigger than white populations it would possibly become an African-American dominated sport.

When the black population of SA really begin to enbrace the sport will race quotas be reversed?

I don't think so guns, and I wouldn't want it to be that way anyway.

I simply want us to put our best team out there, I don't care where they come from.

kingraf wrote:You don't quite get it... black families make almost half as much as the next race group, and SIX times less than white families. Also have the poorest quality of education, not to mention being forced,  by virtue of the market, to learn, and do business in their fourth, fifth, sixth language. This is before we discuss the fact they are products of parents who were educated by an oppressive system in which even the education system was designed to oppress... Black children are born with limited opportunities as a result of the past.

Louis Theroux proves that it has gone both ways though... I'm trying to find the video for you, yet to find it. But basically, it showed many Boer's now unemployed and struggling to survive. They had lost out to black South Africans because of their colour. It also showed that black South Africans working in the professional and public service sectors had increased dramatically in the last decade or so. He's also documented black families still living in poverty. I'm going by memory here from a while ago but my point is Theroux actually gives an unbiased account, unlike you. It wouldn't surprise me if this particular clip has been pulled.

There's also this: http://www.sundaytimes.lk/100328/International/int_17.html