Scmidt to Decide Henshaws future

Interesting article in the Irish Examiner this morning. According to the President its up to Joe to decide if Henshaw should move from Connacht for the benefit of the Irish team. Dont know how people feel about this level of control. I understand the thinking behind it but regardless that Henshaw has signed until 2016 for Connacht if Joe says he has to move then he has to move...

Here is the article http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/irfu-say-henshaws-club-future-up-to-schmidt-264940.html

Thoughts?

It would be very poor for Connacht but if they aren't getting into the top tier of European rugby it could well happen. I suppose a lot will depend on how competitive the 2nd tier becomes in the new European competitions. As things stand I think he has a two year contract and I see no real reason to force things. He will only be 22 at most when he finishes that and he is clearly developing all the time

According to the article its regardless of the two year contract. In other words if Joe decides he should move now then he moves.

I know that but I'm just giving my opinion, not Joes.

Ok...so you'ld be happy with Joe wanting Payne to move to Leinster as an example in replacement for BOD for example (given Ulster already have Cave)?

Thoughts:

I can't believe anyone is even remotely surprised or shocked by this or by the Payne to Leinster rumours.

Both of these guys have had ongoing negotiations -involving the provinces - and if one or both is not lining out for Leinster next season I will eat my hat.

This is not different to McCarthy last year - the Bowe and Fitzgerald to Munster situations - Cronin, Keatley, Carr.... Marmion will be at Leinster within 2 seasons too....

...p.s. It won't be Joes decision - it will be a joint decision involving the player and two provinces - Connacht will be compensated by the IRFU if he leaves the way they were with Clarke when Mcarthy jumped ship.

Joe is trying to get his deck in place for the RWC so expect some card shuffling over the summer.

ME-109 wrote:Ok...so you'ld be happy with Joe wanting Payne to move to Leinster as an example in replacement for BOD for example (given Ulster already have Cave)?

Of course not but your talking about a different situations. Let's not pretend Connacht are the equal of the other three provinces all of which are in the top tier of European rugby. This isn't about how many players are in a certain position because it does seem as it Henshaw will be Connachts 13 next season with Griffin going so bringing Cave into it is irrelevant. I have already said I would leave the lad where he is for the time being.

See how things are after his current contract I say

This is wrong. Connacht have brought Henshaw through their Academy system, he's a homegrown player- if I was a Connacht fan I'd be incensed at this. Connacht have developed him as a player, all his rugby education took place there. If I were a Connacht fan I'd feel that the IRFU were undermining any chance Connacht have to catch the other three provinces with this kind of thing.

Surely it's his decision? I mean, if he doesn't want to leave he won't. Him signing on until 2016 is a pretty strong indicator that he wants to stay. I hope he does, Connacht have need of him.

Who funds the academy Notch? It sure isn't Connacht.

Standulstermen wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Ok...so you'ld be happy with Joe wanting Payne to move to Leinster as an example in replacement for BOD for example (given Ulster already have Cave)?

Of course not but your talking about a different situations. Let's not pretend Connacht are the equal of the other three provinces all of which are in the top tier of European rugby. This isn't about how many players are in a certain position because it does seem as it Henshaw will be Connachts 13 next season with Griffin going so bringing Cave into it is irrelevant. I have already said I would leave the lad where he is for the time being.

See how things are after his current contract I say

Sure I understand that (Just to note am not trying to get into a bunfight or anything). However as per Rodders post and Notch what if for the good of the WC Joe decides that Payne and Henshaw need to move. What is mentioned in the article is not with regards to the provinces but for the good of the Irish team. The thin wedge no?

I understand the point but this was discussed on the ulster thread. The damage a move for Payne would do north of the border isn't worth it.
It would have financial implications for the irfu in that it would alienate a massive section of their fanbase, one that is filling a 17000 stadium. Connacht don't have that so there probably isn't the same fear either with the men from the west. That's not to say it couldn't happen but I genuinely don't see it


Much more likely would be a diktat from the irfu that Payne has to be Ulsters first choice 13 or play a certain amount of games there

I think this not new news or a change of policy. Part of Joe accepting the Irish job is that he would have direct input unlike in the past when it was between the IRFU, the provinces and player.

As I said on the other thread the provinces don't block moves between each other so the decision is Henshaws.

rodders wrote:Who funds the academy Notch? It sure isn't Connacht.

True, true... but you could have said the same for Ulster when we were poor. The point of our structure is that if one province is successful it subsidises the others as the prize money goes into the central pot, and the national team subsidises everybody.

I agree with you that it will ultimately be down to Henshaw, but Connacht fans have a right to be upset at this.

I agree with it because ultimately whats best for Ireland is always the most important to me. I can understand why connacht fans feel annoyed by this but I think lots of Leinster fans including myself wanted Schmidt to be Ireland coach at Leinster's expense so that isnt much different.

It should be surely up to the player whether he wants to move or not. The best thing for him imo would be to play two more seasons with Connacht at 13 then see what options are available to him.

I can't see Schmidt dictating that Henshaw leave Galway, bearing in mind he is still very young and that Schmidt is a former headmaster and Henshaw is studying in UCG.

All Schmidt can say is that it would improve his chances for selection if he was playing European Rugby. Henshaw has to make that choice.

I guess so..maybe El Presidente was just being a little too verbose in his comments.

Notch wrote:
I agree with you that it will ultimately be down to Henshaw, but Connacht fans have a right to be upset at this.

Ah no of course, likewise I don't want to lose Payne but at the same time I never want a player against his will and if its a player of strategic importance to Ireland then its better him going to another province for the benefit of the national side.

I hate to see players go and spend their best years overseas who could add value to another province and provide depth to the national side - Whitten being an obvious example.

On a logical level I agree. On an emotional level I would rather see Ulsters best players move abroad than play for our fiercest rivals. I'm not saying thats right, but I'd be devastated if one of our stars moved to another province. Not a guy who wasn't getting game time like Whitten or Faloon but a guy who is a clear first choice- like Jackson, Bowe or Payne.

I saw a Connacht fan on twitter saying that he would rather Henshaw went overseas than to another province and I totally understand where that sentiment comes from. Because at the end of the day, outside of international windows, we are competing with the other provinces. We are fierce rivals its my dream that Ulster will establish themselves as the top Irish province. Having lost two finals to Leinster in the last three years for the IRFU to step in and move one of our best players there as well would be a massive blow to our chances of getting revenge for those results and I'm too emotionally invested in provincial rugby to accept that. Every time I saw Payne playing for Leinster would be twisting the knife and I'm sure Connacht fans will feel the same way about Henshaw. I'd rather he moved out of sight and out of mind than have that awful feeling of seeing him in a Leinster jersey.

To be perfectly honest, I don't see Henshaw or Payne wanting to leave anyway. I hope it's a moot point. If the IRFU makes a habit of this, they will only alienate fans. As an Ulster and Ireland fan I want to see us design a way for both the provinces and the national team to thrive together instead of potentially damaging our provincial side to improve the national side.

I've got it, how's this:-

Payne to Leinster
Henshaw to Munster
Kirhner to Ulster
Conway to Connacht

You heard it here first!

We're not getting a fair trade there. Kirchener for Payne? No thanks.

How about Kirchener for Cave, and Payne plays outside centre.

Given the discussion over Payne and Henshaw maybe the comments from El Preidente were to give forewarning to a future approach where the IRFU will make more of these decisions (in a more direct way) in the future...

I like the idea in principle but in this instance I'd much prefer to see Henshaw stay with Connacht and become a top Irish international there hopefully inspiring kids in Connacht the way lads like BoD,PoC and Bowe have done in the other provinces.

This kind of power should be used in positions where a player isn't getting gametime and a move to another province might strengthen the province and expose the player in question to 1st team action.

Payne ain't moving so I don't see why they can make Henshaw move unless threats about international futures are made.

If Leinster get Payne the only fair swap would be the entire Leinster backline

Notch wrote:We're not getting a fair trade there. Kirchener for Payne? No thanks.

How about Kirchener for Cave, and Payne plays outside centre.

If we got a good fullback replacement I'd rather keep Cave. That might sound contradictory to what I've said in the past regarding the two players ability in the centre but Cave is home grown, younger and 100% committed to us, plus there is Olding there.

If Payne sees his career elsewhere then good luck to him, if he stays then he starts at 13 on merit.

I can't believe people actually think Payne will join Leinster. I can't tell you how many times a Leinster player has be said to be confirmed to moving to another club by a journalist.

We were told McGrath, Heaslip, SOB, Fitz were all definately leaving in recent times.

Just how many clubs (sorry, provinces) are there in Ireland Plc?

Why don't they go the whole hog and announce a hierarchy viz:

Ireland National

Ireland Provincial side A
Ireland Provincial side B
Ireland Provincial side C
Ireland Provincial side D

?

For the avoidance of doubt I remain convinced it is just journalistic cowpat

Just on Payne - while he is a very classy player, there must be a large question mark over his big game temperment. I seem to recall him going into his shell against Saracens last year as well in the QF as getting red carded this year.

Has he had any standout games with big stakes for Ulster? Or is he just not a cup player?

rodders as far as I know Payne is 100% committed to us too. I hope he tells them that this is where he wants to play his rugby and thats the end of it.

If he is open to a move, the IRFU should only move him IF they can guarantee a replacement of equal or better quality. Zebo or Kearney if it's an Irish player, or a big name NIQ signing. Otherwise it just seems like blatant favouritism.

Sin é wrote:Just on Payne - while he is a very classy player, there must be a large question mark over his big game temperment. I seem to recall him going into his shell against Saracens last year as well in the QF as getting red carded this year.

Has he had any standout games with big stakes for Ulster? Or is he just not a cup player?

Man of the match against saints away last year. Without getting into last Saturday we were hanging by a thread the previous year against Sarries and no one turned up. He is top class.

Portnoy that would cause an even bigger revolution here if they tried to manufacture new artificial provincial sides. The provinces are based on historic boundaries that go back a millennium - explain why Ulster rugby is composed of six counties in the north and three counties in the south. And giving up the traditional Munster-Leinster rivalry - could never happen.

Joe will deal within the system that exists - whether that results Henshaw and/or Payne moving is a moot point. Sympathy lies with Connacht, but fact is that both Munster and Leinster are in need of a top class 13 next year with BOD retiring and Laulala moving on - the existing understudies for 13 at both Munster and Leinster don't inspire a whole lot of confidence.

Like said by earlier posters, could see Payne staying with Ulster on strict condition that he sees time against good opposition - not the likes of Zebre - at 13. Not ideal for Ulster but given that Payne has a central contract, it's IRFU and Joe who will call the shots.

Agreed brenno. Let's remember as well we have a duty to bring Gilroy through and Olding also so we do need to develop 15 cover

Portnoy that would cause an even bigger revolution here if they tried to manufacture new artificial provincial sides. The provinces are based on historic boundaries that go back a millennium - explain why Ulster rugby is composed of six counties in the north and three counties in the south. And giving up the traditional Munster-Leinster rivalry - could never happen.

Joe will deal within the system that exists - whether that results Henshaw and/or Payne moving is a moot point. Sympathy lies with Connacht, but fact is that both Munster and Leinster are in need of a top class 13 next year with BOD retiring and Laulala moving on - the existing understudies for 13 at both Munster and Leinster don't inspire a whole lot of confidence.

Like said by earlier posters, could see Payne staying with Ulster on strict condition that he sees time against good opposition - not the likes of Zebre - at 13. Not ideal for Ulster but given that Payne has a central contract, it's IRFU and Joe who will call the shots.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
We were told McGrath, Heaslip, SOB, Fitz were all definately leaving in recent times.

Correction - their agent told you they were leaving, via the media, to negotiate a better deal.

brennomac wrote:Portnoy that would cause an even bigger revolution here if they tried to manufacture new artificial provincial sides.  The provinces are based on historic boundaries that go back a millennium - explain why Ulster rugby is composed of six counties in the north and three counties in the south.  And giving up the traditional Munster-Leinster rivalry - could never happen.

Joe will deal within the system that exists - whether that results Henshaw and/or Payne moving is a moot point.  Sympathy lies with Connacht, but fact is that both Munster and Leinster are in need of a top class 13 next year with BOD retiring and Laulala moving on - the existing understudies for 13 at both Munster and Leinster don't inspire a whole lot of confidence.

Like said by earlier posters, could see Payne staying with Ulster on strict condition that he sees time against good opposition - not the likes of Zebre - at 13.  Not ideal for Ulster but given that Payne has a central contract, it's IRFU and Joe who will call the shots.  

If Munster wanted to, they could keep Laulala, so I doubt if there is any panic in Munster.

Apart from Earls, GVDH apparently can also play there (shifting GvdH isn't much different from shifting Payne into 13 from fullback).

Sin é wrote:Just on Payne - while he is a very classy player, there must be a large question mark over his big game temperment. I seem to recall him going into his shell against Saracens last year as well in the QF as getting red carded this year.

Has he had any standout games with big stakes for Ulster? Or is he just not a cup player?

He's a class act Sin. He hasn't reached his full potential as I reckon he's carrying a tweak or something (groin I had heard) but at 100% he's simply BODlike

Sin é wrote:Just on Payne - while he is a very classy player, there must be a large question mark over his big game temperment. I seem to recall him going into his shell against Saracens last year as well in the QF as getting red carded this year.

Has he had any standout games with big stakes for Ulster? Or is he just not a cup player?

Drivel.
He wasn't fit last year - that was part of the problem we have a few players off the pace for a number of reasons.

Pete330v2 wrote:

Sin é wrote:Just on Payne - while he is a very classy player, there must be a large question mark over his big game temperment. I seem to recall him going into his shell against Saracens last year as well in the QF as getting red carded this year.

Has he had any standout games with big stakes for Ulster? Or is he just not a cup player?

He's a class act Sin. He hasn't reached his full potential as I reckon he's carrying a tweak or something (groin I had heard) but at 100% he's simply BODlike

Not questioning his playing ability, I'm wondering about his big game mentality. Rob Kearney always lifts his game and seems to thrive for the big occasion. I would think that Payne is probably a better player, but I think Kearney would be more likely to put in a big performance.

Anyhow to round this off Pat Lam says take a hike...therefore a move is probably happening

What's up with Lamb? Is he leaving?

I don't follow Super Rugby, but wonder if this will make any difference

http://thescore.thejournal.ie/bundee-aki-connacht-1411740-Apr2014/

Bundee Aki plays 12 for Waikato Chiefs

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:Just on Payne - while he is a very classy player, there must be a large question mark over his big game temperment. I seem to recall him going into his shell against Saracens last year as well in the QF as getting red carded this year.

Has he had any standout games with big stakes for Ulster? Or is he just not a cup player?

Drivel.
He wasn't fit last year - that was part of the problem we have a few players off the pace for a number of reasons.

Never understand why Ulster fans put the blow ins on a pedesal all the time when really its the home grown players are the real foundations of ulster rugby. Some incredible Irish men up there.

Hard to tell because Eoin Griffin is definitely leaving and they would want to replace him anyway. Aki can play as well at 13 as he can at 12 though, and if this move pushes Henshaw to fullback then conversely that might make the IRFU more likely to step in as they are trying to push Henshaw and Payne towards the outside centre position.

GunsGerms wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:Just on Payne - while he is a very classy player, there must be a large question mark over his big game temperment. I seem to recall him going into his shell against Saracens last year as well in the QF as getting red carded this year.

Has he had any standout games with big stakes for Ulster? Or is he just not a cup player?

Drivel.
He wasn't fit last year - that was part of the problem we have a few players off the pace for a number of reasons.

Never understand why Ulster fans put the blow ins on a pedesal all the time when really its the home grown players are the real foundations of ulster rugby. Some incredible Irish men up there.

Nacewa

They are all Ulstermen Guns. You're saying that like nobody gives credit to our homegrown players- I couldn't find enough good things to say about Best, Trimble, Henry, Bowe, Jackson etc.

Pienaar and Muller have made massive contributions to Ulster of course, and Payne has been consistently excellent. I don't see how it's any different to Leinster fans drooling over Nacewa or Contepomi or Munster fans talking about Doug Howlett.

I thought Bowe was an Ospreylian...   An interesting topic for us Welshmen to keep an eye on given the furore happening over here to do with central contracts and union control.

Except that the Provinces here are part of the IRFU (i.e Munster are the Munster Branch of the IRFU) and most of the Ireland players are centrally contracted anyhow.

ME-109 wrote:Except that the Provinces here are part of the IRFU (i.e Munster are the Munster Branch of the IRFU) and most of the Ireland players are centrally contracted anyhow.

Apparently only thirteen players on central contracts, ME. 5 Leinster, 5 Munster and 3 Ulster accordint to GT in the IT just before the HEC QFs.